NSA phone-records story excites Washington

Collecting a database of every domestic phone call made in this country, so that we can fight al Qaeda? Why do I think that, if the government decided they wanted to shoot my dog, they'd find a way to connect it to terrorism, 9/11 and al Qaeda?

While I am not an apologist for this administration, lets call this story what it is, another attempt by the liberal press to attack. Do people realize that far more information is collected by Amazon every time you buy a book online? Credit Card companies, internet purchases, even the cable company collects information on what you watch so they can "recommend" a channel package they think you would enjoy, as Amazon recommends books based on your prior purchases. Do people think what the government did with phone records is really any worse?

Why worry? Unless you have something to hide. I don't care if the government knows who I call or who calls me. As long as they don't listen in on my calls without a warrant or probable cause. I draw the line at wiretapping.

According to the logic of Jon Kyl, the government will always have the right to do whatever they want to the US citizens. Even if we killed every terrorist on the planet who knows if in a few months another group will form? We will be at war forever.

Oh, and to Andy, have you checked the doghouse recently? Fido is probably hiding WMD's.

Be careful what you type into your internet search engine, where you use your credit card, what books you check out of the library, who you call, and where you travel. You might just end up at Gitmo.

Analyzing our call patterns doesn't surprise me. The current administration is finally using the gutter to scrape the US constitution off the bottom of their shoes.

The biggest error is classifying 9/11 as 'an act of war'. Those were Bush's words and they've been exploited for political purposes. In war, you have a well defined enemy fighting with relatively deep resources, with a well-defined broadly shared purpose. 9/11 was a band of criminal thugs with a daring plan who attacked us for their narrow ideological purposes.

It's disgusting to excuse this wiretapping outrage and countless other abuses such as torture, indefinite detention without trial, and the Iraq invasion under the guise of fighting a "war". It's abstract at best, yet Bush's actions are anything but abstract. Britain, Spain and countless other countries have fought terrorism for years without regressing into the state we have.

Time to throw them out!!!

Let the games begin!

I'm can't wait to read the priceless left wing screeching.

Don't forget the quotes from our forefathers!

Just so I understand this correctly - Sen. Kyl is saying "We've got to collect intelligence on the enemy" in defense of collection of records of millions of Americans. So, the millions of Americans are the enemy? Conversely, if he and the administration are not implying that, the question becomes - Since when intelligence gathering became a trolling activity instead of a targeted bait and hook type operation? If anything, this course of action tells the real enemy that we are not really very good at this intelligence business so we need to round-up everybody. Is this the administration's strategy for war on terror? Carpet bombing?

If Bush truly wanted to stop terrorists he would have stopped Osama bin Ladin's family from leaving the U.S. right after the 9/11 attack.

What Bush is doing has nothing to do with protecting us from anything, but making the U.S. a totally fascist state. The similarities between Bush's government today and Adolf Hitler's in 1939 are astonishing.

The poster who says that colleting call info is okay but "I stop at wiretap" should know that wiretaps without court order were authorized by an Executive Order years ago. If his phone logs are being collected, we can bet his calls are being monitored, too.

Some of the Republican spin is bordering on the rediculous
BUSH
"We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."
Goodness, collecting a record of who everyone in the country has called since 9/11 and then sifting through it, on most planets in this solar system would qualify as trolling through millions the lives of millions of innocent Americans.

KYL
"We are in war. And we’ve got to collect intelligence on the enemy"
So everyone who uses a phone in the US is an enemy? Or are we only suspected of being an enemy?

In the old days, we used to call this sort of thing a "fishing expedition." The net's suddenly gotten a lot bigger.

You are doing a disservice to your readers when you report the news and in the same breath infer the Administration had previously lied when they've indicated the NSA program was not "recording or listening" to domestic calls. It sounds like perfectly good sense to know what are routine pattern calls in the United States. That way an unusual call would stand out.

You would be the first to scream the Administration wasn't protecting you should another terrorist attack occur on our soil.

Phone companies have been selling our numbers to telemarketers for years....where is the public uproar over it.

Qwest... just for not assisting in the war on terror should be denied all federal contracts and those they have in hand should be cancelled.

Are there really people out there as naive as Dave?" That's the party line: "Why worry if you've got nothing to hide." It's about the governement intruding further and further into your daily life until it reaches a point where all of us will have something to hide. i.e., our sexual practices in the bedroom, our purchases made at the video store, what medications you might be on? Where does it end?

What I have not heard (yet) is a single instance of anyone being charged with any crime or offense not associated with al Qaeda as a result of the domestic spying being performed by the NSA. If a citizen were charged with transporting marijuana with intent to distribute, for example, as a result of this program, then all of the alarmists would be correct.

I, for one, support whatever it takes to keep the enemy from exploding a neuclear weapon or weaponized toxins in Philadelphia, Phoenix or Portland. It appears that adequate safeguards against unconstitutional fishing expeditions are being employed.

Old news James. I can see the "drive-by" media is doing everything to recreate this story. Not one U.S. citizen gives a damn about weather the NSA listens in on people-not citizens James, that are talking to terrorists across the world! With all the blame America first reporting done by the "drive-by" media, I can't help but ask-"Whose side on the war on terrorism are you people on?"

Chris

Slippery slope, Dave. Really slippery slope.

Firs the government collects this data claiming it needs it for monitoring terrorist activities. Then it decides to expand the definition of terrorist to include not just al Qaeda and its ilk, but also anyone plotting violence in the U.S. (domestic or foriegn-based). Then it says, "hmm...this fringe group is giving us trouble. Let's track their records just to 'make sure' they are not doing anything wrong...", and before you know it, they are monitoring everything and everyone to make us "safe".

Safe from what, Dave? The world is inherently unsafe, and with a world population in excess of 6.5 BILLION, you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning, twice, than you do of dying in a terrorist attack.

As for not worrying if you have nothing to hide, well, I don't. However, my business if no business of the government.

This seems more like a staged leak by the Bush administration to me. The detailed report in USA Today and the rapid response by the administration leads me to believe that this was just more propaganda.

The White House is concerned about Bush's low approval rating and are trying to flush out and spin topics they believe are hurting them.

So who's lying?

Bush: "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates," Bush said. "We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans."

Hayden: "I have met personally with prominent corporate executive officers. (One senior executive confided that the data management needs we outlined to him were larger than any he had previously seen). [...] And last week we cemented a deal with another corporate giant to jointly develop a system to mine data that helps us learn about our targets."

Had enough yet?

Save our country. Save our Constitution. Impeach.

I think the main point is that the administration is willing to break the law rather than go to Congress to try to change it. Just because George Bush says to do something doesn't make it legal. In fact, the FISA provides both civil and criminal penalties for government employees to engage in warrantless wiretapping. While there may be no political will to prosecute anyone, civil suits can and should be brought against NSA and other govt employees involved in the illegal program.

Amazon just wants my money, they are not interested in right wing lifestyle choices being inacted into law so they can punish the unworthy with ego driven zeal. If you think you are doing nothing wrong now, and let the infrastucture take hold.... better hope they don't change their mind. Remember, most of the witches burned at the stake were not witches, just those easily identified by the information available at the time and the WWJD crowd with a bloodthirst.

We are still sitting in silence infront of our computers and writting coments, we all should be in streets to give these cowboys a loong vacation for life, somewhere back to texas...I am apauled with this news, with this government and their dispecable tactics. How long do we need to put up with this?

Regards,
Nedret

Dave,

You say why worry unless you have something to hide. What if you have something to hide from, say, a rival at work? Or from your abusive ex-husband?

It's not like the snoops doing this stuff are pure-as-a-mountain-spring angels. They're human beings.

Joe Falcone

I can't believe what I'm reading! The Constitution states we have the right to privacy: "to be secure in our homes, papers and persons" unless a court specifically indicates otherwise by issue of a lawful warrant based upon probale cause. For the Government to act contrary to that is a crime! There is nothing to mince here. Spying with out a warrant within the borders of the USA is illegal. It should stop at the border - period. This President has clearly broken the law repeatedly - starting with his election, and in my opinion should be tried for high crimes and misdimeanors as our Constitution provides.

Ah, the old "if you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't complain" argument (Dave, 5-11, 1:38:39pm).

Maybe you should be required to show your "papers" if you move from state to state or city to city. After all, terrorists are going to want to move around a lot, so we need this information. Besides, if you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't complain.

Maybe every word you say should be recorded and analyzed by a computer in Langley, VA. After all, terrorists don't just use phones; they talk to each other. So maybe we should put microphones *everywhere* and record *everything*. And if you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't complain.

Perhaps we should implant RFID chips into every human (like "chipping" your dog) so that your movements can be tracked without your knowledge. Or we could use cell phone triangulation if you own a cell phone (hint: they're already doing this, read the news). Then we could know where everyone is at all times -- and catch more terrorists. And if you've got nothing to hide, you shouldn't complain.

The bottom line is that we *should* complain. Our civil liberties were not given to us "until we got scared of terrorists." They are not conditional... they are not temporary. Once you're *convicted* of a crime, you lose your liberties. But until then, you might want to read the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The President and his henchmen are trampling the very Constitution that they've sworn to protect and uphold. That makes him a liar and a crook. It also makes him guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanors" -- which makes him a candidate for impeachment.

You should care, even if you've got nothing to hide. Because history has shown that liberties, once given up, are almost impossible to get back. And we're giving up nothing less than the fundamental Constitutional liberties that make America a place worth fighting for and living in.

We're losing America, and we're not even fighting.

I can't believe what I'm reading! The Constitution states we have the right to privacy: "to be secure in our homes, papers and persons" unless a court specifically indicates otherwise by issue of a lawful warrant based upon probale cause. For the Government to act contrary to that is a crime! There is nothing to mince here. Spying with out a warrant within the borders of the USA is illegal. It should stop at the border - period. This President has clearly broken the law repeatedly - starting with his election, and in my opinion should be tried for high crimes and misdimeanors as our Constitution provides.

"I'm can't wait to read the priceless left wing screeching."

Spelling errors aside, you're sooooo right. "They're breaking the law!" and "the Constitution forbids this!"

Such ridiculous rhetoric. How panic-mongering of the Left to expect the President and his Executive Branch to *obey the law* and *protect, not destroy* the Constitution.

Such ridiculous people -- revering our Founding Fathers, honoring the Constitution.

Let's all pillory anyone who cares about our nation! They're dragging us away from the last re-run of American Idiot... er, Idol...

To Dryl: There is a ton of difference between Amazon and the US govt.
One is a business, other is errr... government.
You have a choice to do business with Amazon; you have no choice but to do business with the govt;
Amazon asks your permission to collect the information, the argument here is about the lack of permission, not the information the govt collected;
You have a remedy at law for misuse of information by Amazon, US govt has sovereign immunity against suits;
There are laws made by congress (of people's representatives) guarding the collection and protection of information by Amazon which it must follow, "W" seems to be making laws as he goes instead of following the ones made by, you guessed it, congress.

Daryl, the different between the information that Amazon collects and the data mining going on by the NSA is that you can choose NOT to do business with Amazon because of their information collecting practices, not to mention they do the data collection with the full knowledge of the consumer. The NSA is gathering this private information without the people's or Congress's knowledge, and it's somewhat more difficult to sever ties with the NSA and the White House in the same mannder as a website retailer.

Tony:

"In the old days, we used to call this sort of thing a "fishing expedition." The net's suddenly gotten a lot bigger."

Actually, in the old days, we used to call this sort of thing "Watergate." Apparently the standards have gotten a lot lower... It's a sad day when illegal wiretapping and murdering the Constitution are greeted by the American people with a yawn.

And in our names, too. The gall of it!

A few years ago we found out that information that was only supposed to be used to stop terrorism, collected via the Patriot Act, was now being used to fight other types of crime. The rationale: we have the information already, so why wouldn't we use it to catch the bad guys committing crimes. How long before the information collected by the NSA ends up doing the same thing with the information they have collected?

Now tell me, IF this information is used for purposes other than stopping foreign terrorists operating on domestic soil, then how is this not an end-around the requirement that law enforcement officials obtain warrants for such information?

The one saving grace is that the Bush Administration is far too incompetent to actually figure out what to do with all of our phone logs.

Why dont you just surrender to AL Qaeda, Hamas or those who would arrest or kill you for showing your face , or believing in freedom of religion.That includes China, who arrest those that even talk too freely. We could lose
this war . Go move to Iran see how you like it.
Move to N. Vietnam,maybe N. Korea,practice what you preach in Syria. complain to them about your freedom.

FYI to Daryl -
When I buy a book at Amazon, I'm doing so of my own volition. I know exactly what information I'm giving them. Same as when I purchase cable TV, use a credit card, etc. I know beforehand that this information may be collected - and, I usually make sure that I investigate any "opt out" options concerning my information, and check the boxes to do so.

What makes this different is that no one is asking us to opt in. We are being given no choice. And, it has apparently been going on for quiet a long time.

Nice touch to see the first words out of Bush's mouth were, "After September 11 . . . " - yup, tie everything back to that, ratchet up the fear. Same ol', same ol'.

It is impossible to trust the current administration.

This is the biggest non-issue and witch hunt that the liberal media has done to date.

Regardless of your politics, look to the facts.
The alphabet soup of govt agencies are attempting to build a very large database of information that can be used to help track down organizations or groups of individuals.

Suppose person A is a known terrorist.
He phoned persons X Y and Z. Are X Y and Z now terrorists? The answer is maybe. The use of phone records is one of the easiest ways to establish a connection between individuals within an organization.

IMHO, what the govt did by collecting the call data is not an invasion of privacy or your rights per se. It does however, allow the govt to better identify potential suspects and then limit the amount of search warrants and invasions of privacy that it must commit.

There is more to this than phone records. But that information is already public records.

One could argue that knowing what phone calls you made is not an invasion of privacy . The phone company automatically tracks this information for their own purposes. (Billing and its own data mining efforts too). Its what you said in that conversation which is private and would require a warrant.

But I'm not a lawyer. Just a techie who understands what the govt. is doing.....

Later!

-G

"Phone companies have been selling our numbers to telemarketers for years....where is the public uproar over it."

Ed, there's a big difference in selling phone numbers to telemarketers (which, unless you live under a rock, has caused a great deal of public uproar, hence the Do Not Call list) and selling a log of our phone calls to the Federal Government. Big difference. HUGE.

Darl,

Even if Credit card companies, cell phone companies and other marketers do what you say they do it does not make what the government right. Our government should be a role model and should be able to take the moral high ground when we are discussing civil liberties and rights to privacy. Instead they have shown us time and time again a disregard for our rights as American citizens. This issue has nothing to do with democrats or republicans; it has to do with our rights as citizens.

Dave,

Have you ever read the book 1984? If you haven’t I would really suggest that you do. If our government wanted to wiretap everyone in America, where do you would think they would start? My guess is that they would probably be just about where they are right now. If the white house is telling the truth in regards to the info they collected, then the issue is not only what is going on today but rather what will be going on tomorrow. These power moves are just paving the way for something way worse to come. The game they are playing is like chess and they are willing to send in the pawns first before they even start playing with their bigger pieces.

Dave (above) says, "Why worry? Unless you have something to hide. I don't care if the government knows who I call or who calls me. As long as they don't listen in on my calls without a warrant or probable cause. I draw the line at wiretapping."

Why would you trust any administration to track your calls but "oooo, never ever!" listen to them?
Why would you trust this administration on any account?

I've made my compromises with the internet. I shop online and I use Google's magical desktop. I just figure if they want to know about me, they will find out. Like flying, modern life presents risks.

But I would never agree to make it easy. I would never just hand over my privacy - especially to the Republican administration that believes it's above the law. Remember, they have been doing this "data mining" since 9/11 and lying about it repeatedly.

The whole reason we have a Bill of Rights is that the government can NEVER be trusted to respect our rights without it.

Jeez ... why does one even have to say this? Our liberty is at stake. Use it or lose it folks.

One big difference, Daryl, is that Amazon can't arrest you and haul you off to jail. Governments, however, certainly can. Which is why the Founding Fathers put strict limits on their power. You know, that checks-and-balances thing. That's what's truely scary about this administration.

These comments are interesting reading.

First and foremost, most posters neglect the facts or even discuss the topic at hand. They would rather rant and rave about things that they know little about.

Electronic eavsdropping is one thing.
Gathering statistical data in an effort to aide in pattern searching for potential terrorists is another.

The sad thing about reporting on technology, you first A have to understand what the facts are, and B you have to communicate that information in such a manner that your audience understands the facts too.

Not an easy task.

"Let the games begin!

I'm can't wait to read the priceless left wing screeching.

Don't forget the quotes from our forefathers!"

Here is the first "quote from our forefathers" that you may want to ponder:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

That is merely the 4th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. You know that "quaint" and silly document that our President is sworn to uphold? Only this President has made a thorough mockery of the Constitution. If there was ever a time to impeach a president, it is now!

IT'S A WASTE OF TIME, EFFORT, MONEY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES.

DO THEY REALLY THINK TERRORISTS CALL EACH OTHER FROM AND TO THE SAME NUMBERS WITH ENOUGH FREQUENCY THAT A PATTERN COULD BE DETECTED AMONGST MILLIONS OF OTHER CALLS?

THINK ABOUT IT!

BUSH HAS BEEN WATCHING TOO MANY DETECTIVE SHOWS.

'Trawling', not 'trolling'. Trolls live under bridges and eat billy goats.

Today we have learned that the NSA has collected information about tens of millions of telephone calls made within the United States since shortly after September 11, 2001.

Show your displeasure with the NSA and President Bush by making a Freedom of Information Act request for records of your telephone calls.

Simply block and copy the form below, paste it into your word processor, fill in your information, print and mail. That's all there is to it.

[Your name]
[Your address]
[Your city/state/zip]

[Date]

National Security Agency
ATTN: FOIA Office (DC34)
9800 Savage Road STE 6248
Ft. George G. Meade, MD 20755-6248

FOIA REQUEST

Dear FOI Officer:

Pursuant to the federal Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552, I request access to and copies of records showing telephone calls to or from the following telephone number(s) since September 11, 2001, to date: [insert number(s)]. I also request access to and copies of records of the contents of each such call.

I agree to pay reasonable duplication fees for the processing of this request.

If my request is denied in whole or part, I ask that you justify all deletions by reference to specific exemptions of the act. I will also expect you to release all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material. I, of course, reserve the right to appeal your decision to withhold any information or to deny a waiver of fees.

I look forward to your reply within 20 business days, as the statute requires.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

[Your name]

So what is the difference between Bush and Ahmadinejad? They both violate human rights with sinilar excuses

"Why worry? Unless you have something to hide."

Dave, I sincerely hope that your blind acceptance of tyranny does not come back to haunt you.

When history and the warnings of our Founding Fathers are not enough, sometimes it takes an Innocent Bureaucratic Mistake [TM], such as an overzealous agent or poorly programmed federal computer misidentifying you as a "terrorist"

[ http://news.com.com/Tens+of+thousands+mistakenly+matched+to+terrorist+watch+lists/2100-7348_3-5984673.html ]

and sending a tactical team in to raid your house at 3AM with a "no-knock" warrant. Let's hope that they do not feel the need to "defend themselves" when you reach for your eyeglasses on your nightstand during the commotion.

[ http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/44explosive.html ]

Wake up man!

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom--go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"

Justin:
The irony is that the information that you are arguing that the US govt shouldn't have is already being sent overseas.

You worry about the misuse by the govt, yet you ignore a larger potential threat by corporations.

What a joke!

Don't you DARE touch any of my information without asking me...I don't care what information that is, just don't touch it.

Get mad people.

>Why worry? Unless you have something to hide. I >don't care if the government knows who I call or >who calls me. As long as they don't listen in on my >calls without a warrant or probable cause. I draw >the line at wiretapping.

Why not let them listen in on *your* phone calls? Do *you* have something to hide?

This is the kind of incompetent reaction to disaster that we have learned to expect from an administration that deliberatiely ignored terrorist warnings before 9-11 so that it could justify an invasion of Iraq.

The difference between Amazon.com collecting my personal data and the US Government colecting my personal data is that the US government has lost my trust.

To the 31% still with Bush:
What is your paranoia about terrorism, holding it way above everything else???

In the not to distant future, we'll have lost more soldiers than lives lost on 9/11. We'll easily have spent/wasted enough to have solved many of our problems at home.

Time and again this administration SAYS one thing and we later find out that they're doing the OPPOSITE...most often to our complete detriment.

They can't find a 6'4" Saudi Arabian after 4.5 years; what makes you think they can do ANYTHING they say they can??

Daryl - Amazon may collect data but they don't have the motive or capability to kill whom they don't like (race, political preference, etc) and frame innocent people.
Also storing your personal information is different than listening in our your private conversation.

+++
Dave - Why worry? You yourself answered your question. You draw a line at wiretapping but the current administration (if you want to call it that) doesnt.

Wake up... and know that the current admin only stands for one thing - corporatism and, few having more control, wealth, influence, etc than many.

Think about this:

When you signed up for phone service...
what if you were given a choice...
to sign a government form allowing the government to know about all your calls.

How many of you would happily sign it?

My guess would be zero people would give the government that right. Republicans, Democrats, and Independents would all say no.

Conservatism means no government intrusion. Bush is not a conservative, he is a authoritarian.

Suppose an al Qaeda terrorist accidently dials your number. Guess what - now you are one of "the dots" to be connected even though you thought you were safe under the "why worry unless you have something to hide" theorem. Once you get connected to a terrorist then it is right into the warrantless "terrorist surveillance" program with you unbeknowst to you of course-- all without you doing a thing. The founders are surely rolling in their graves.

mh:

You are truly ignorant of the life that goes on around you.

Go back to watching Nickelodeon.

Hint: Call logs are just one vector of communication. There is other data being collected, however, that data is already public information.

"This is nuts," said Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) of the public discussion of intelligence-gathring activities. "We are in war. And we've got to collect intelligence on the enemy. And you can't tell the enemy in advance how you're going to do it. And discussing all of this stuff in public leads to that."

We are most certainly NOT in a "war". Isn't it time the American people stopped giving the president a pass any time he decides to subvert the Constitution, simply because he claims we're "in a war"? President Bush's "war on terror" is a load of PR crap and a blanket excuse to abuse the law and the patience of the public--nothing more.

There IS no "war" going on--other than the one Bush started in Iraq, based on lies.

This is no different than the tactics of The Kremlin. America is not free. I don't even recognize it anymore. It is quite sad, and it really didn't have to be this way. You Bushies can rot. I blame you, the mindless voters as much as Bush.

Does ANYONE really trust a word he says?
Does ANYONE remember what FUN was?

For the party of 'personal responsibility' there is no accountability. Time for a NO CONFIDENCE vote.

NSA has been monitoring communications for decades, including during the Clinton and Carter years.

This is such a non-issue, timed for Hayden's appointment.

Daryl,
Amazon can't take away my civil rights.
Amazon can't through presidential writings ignor all or part of a law to justify breaking any law including the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Dave,
How do you know they are not already listening? Trust me?

At what point will the war on terrorism end? At what point could we expect our own government to stop spying on us?

The current generation of Americans isn't too bright. Previous generations would not have been fooled so easily. Common sense used to be what America was all about. Earlier Americans wouldn't have panicked with one attack but would have competently caught Al Qeuda one by one. Sending an army overseas, diminishing our resources all because Saddam fooled us was foolish. We are now all fools and those following W don't even seem to know it, they want to be wiretapped!
Ken

The only phone company who resisted the apparently illegal eavesdropping by the big brother seems to be Qwest... I just checked: Qwest is not servicing Ohio so I guess if I want to continue to use the telephone I have to stick with a GOP - NSA accomplice, AT&T, Verizon, ...
Vivifiant,
Ohio

DOES BUSH REALIZE THE 9-11 PLOT WAS ORGANIZED VIA E-MAIL AND PERSONAL VISITS? NO? I THOUGHT NOT.

HE SHOULD READ THE 9-11 REPORT. HE MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave. I can't wait to clean house in the up-coming elections. For all these calls this administration is listening to, they sure are deaf to the voices of the American people.

I would like to think the American public, despite the party they associate themselves would be aware enough not to resort to complaining about one side or the other "screeching" [sic]. Shouldn't you be concerned that the government tracks everyone you call - looking for a pattern that could be misinterpreted and call you in for questioning or even detainment without merit?

The reason the Constitution and our laws exsist is to allow the government to do what it needs to to protect our safety, while keeping in place the very liberties that make America the free nation that it is.

What are we protecting if we're not protecting our freedom?

THat's not "liberal screeching", it's a fair question every "freedom-loving American" should ask themselves.

Umm, we are at war. And it's not just aginst a small band of losers. An entire religious community that describes America as the Great Satan. People across the Middle East rejoiced when the Twin Towers fell.

Does anyone truly doubt that there are many thousands, if not more, who yearn to see more and deadlier attacks, and who are planning how to do them?

Micheal Gumby,

"You worry about the misuse by the govt, yet you ignore a larger potential threat by corporations."

I never once said that I agreed with the way corporations collect data about its customers. Furthermore our government is supposed to be based on a constitution for which many people have fought and died for. For you to say that we do not need to worry about the Government because there are marketing agencies out there is ludicrous. If you Amazon if more of a threat than the most powerful country in the world, I would call you the joke.

boy, if this had been the clinton administration, it might have been as impeachable as a hooter.

Ann:

No where in the article or any report was the word, "selling records to the government." The National "DO NOT CALL" registry is a joke.

To the rest who keep harping on the "Constitution" and privacy, blah blah blah.... Only Congress can declare war... sounds familiar?.... Well, once that has been done, the President is the Commander in Chief... no where does it say Congress must approve all war plans and courses of action. The President does take an oath to "defend the country from all enemies foreign and domestic." How can that be done if a right to all privacy prevailed? There are exceptions I'm afraid.

Congress cannot enact a law that trumps the Presidential powers afforded under the Constitution.

If a terrorist cell struck again in the U.S., you would be one of the first to say "Where was my Government."

I'm sure you know your e-mails have been compromised as well, even before Sept. 11, even before Bush??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(FBI)

In both voice and data surveillance programs:

Your communications logs are collected proactively, before you do anything 'wrong', so it can be processed easily on-demand, in case you do anything 'wrong' in the future

It is the equivalent of letting the gov't put video cameras in all of our homes, with promise that they will only look at our footage after we do anything wrong. More precisely, after THEY SUSPECT we do anything wrong, in order to prove or disprove whether we did

How many of these 14 characateristics of Facism have we met now...

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
5. Rampant Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

Bush: "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates," Bush said. "We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans."

This president lies everytime he opens his mouth.
Of course hes lying about this.

RE: Daryl

The difference is that I agree to buy from Amazon. I understand that signing up for a super-market card is signing up for all my purchases to be traced and recorded.

What worries me is that if I go to that particular super market and buy items that look like bomb or drug making materials but really are just to clean my house, they could hold me without a lawyer for as long as they like because I'm suspect. And even further, maybe you and all our neighbors buy that stuff, as we probably do. Then there goes the neighborhood.

If they get a lead that I'm making bombs, that’s one thing, but routing through my every action to *find* reason to arrest me, that is only a sign of disorganization, fear, and misguidance.

And that is my issue with all of this. I have nothing to hide, but what I know as completely benign in the wrong place with the wrong person secretly watching interpreting it incorrectly could be the end of every one of my freedoms. And yours too.

Fot those who think that subverting our precious Constitution is OK because we are at "war", and that you are safe because you "have nothing to hide", cosider this:

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

Pastor Martin Niemöller

So we are speaking out now, before we are foever silenced by those who think patriotism means blindly following the leader, even as he drives our country over the cliff.

In the words of Pogo; "We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Mr. Gumby,

So, you're saying that if known terrorist A calls persons X, Y, and Z, then X, Y, and Z should properly be considered suspected terrorists? That itself is pretty dangerous - you know it's pretty hard to control who calls you. But then, let's take that a step further. Let's say that now-suspected terrorist X calls persons P, D, and Q. Are those three individuals now suspected terrorists? And what if P calls J and J calls W and W calls L and..... Where do you propose to end it? Six degrees of separation and we're all terrorist suspects.

And for all of you apologists, what exactly would it take to convince that abuse of power is occurring? If you step out of your shower some day and find an NSA agent sitting in your easy chair reading your books with your dog curled up by his feet, then would you be convinced?

I can't believe how absolutely LOST some of these posters are. You Bush backers have ruined this country.
We are NOT at war. I never heard Congress declare it. If we were there would be sacrifice on the part of the beneficiaries of this war, namely the rich. But alas, the rich have been awarded more tax breaks, over and over. Except for the troops who the Bushies CLAIM to support and DON'T, where is the sacrifice? In your pocketbook, that is where. Over $200 Billion, and for WHAT??? So we can have Fascism HERE? We are not free. This is a 1st world dictatorship.
The 'war' on terror is unwinnable. Even Bush said it. WE ARE THE PROBLEM. And we are blind fools, I'm afraid. Thanks for NOTHING Bushies.

Chill out, folks. Strictly speaking, there is nothing illegal about the feds ASKING for such database information. What is illegal (from the standpoint of being a telecom company) is if the companies released any data without utilizing two of the exceptions under the Communications Act of '34 (amended in 1996).

One exception deals with "when the law requires" the release. Often, organizations in "good faith" construe that as including situations when public health/safety demands it (e.g. aftermath of 9-11). In short, a subpoena/court order may not be necessary.

The second exception is when the data at issue is in aggregate. In other words, when it is not personally identifiable. Again, strictly speaking, it would appear that the data handed over to the feds did not have any names attached to it. Therefore, while that data could have been subsequently augmented to make it "personally identifiable", there is no indication yet that this took place. Even if it did, data augmentation in and of itself (in particular, when publicly available records are the sources for augmentation) is not illegal.

My hope would be that “journalists”, including those at the USA Today, would bother to consider these issues prior to attempting to become the next Woodward/Bernstein.

OKAY FINE let me correct my post above

It is the equivalent of letting the gov't install an electronic visitor/guest log to your house, that they will easily read in case they ever suspect funny business by you in the future

They don't actually hear/see what you say (supposedly) unless they have a warrant

But they may use the log to get the warrant

A side thought:

If the English government were able to track the conversations of certain people prior to the Boston Tea PArty and further actions of those people which resulted in the indipendance of the USA, would they have squashed those people and labeled them as terrorists?

Justa thought, but all of this is a good read, opens the eyes a little more in both directions.

Data mining by Amazon, et al, is one thing: by purchasing from them I agree to a certain level of information flow. That is, I'm aware they are collecting my information.
Until today, I was suspicious, but unsure, that my phone calls were being watched (data mined). I'm glad QWEST resisted...I'm proud of them.
Maybe the government should place a recording "this conversation may be recorded" on every call as it connects . At the least it would seriously mess with any terrorist's heads who want to use the phone for planning.
I would like to see a competent and honest approach from my federal government. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Gumby, don't be an a&%. I work in telephony integration. Why do you think Google refused to give search engine results to the Justice Dept.? Part of it was good PR, part was simply OBEYING the LAW.

It is astounding to see all the apologists here willing to defend the clearly illegal actions of Bush and his cronies. I hope all you 'conservatives' are still laughing at the 'lib-ruls' when Bush repeals the Constitution and imposes martial law.

Armando, specifically: Yes, Carnivore (which Congress more or less shot down in 2001) was a program that would process all emails that travelled over a US backbone. It would hunt through the emails looking for flagged words, perhaps bomb and jihad, for instance.

To imply, however, that there is nothing we can do about this is disingenuous. Many savvy people use PGP encryption to ensure that even if intercepted, the NSA has to waste a couple hundred CPU cycles to break the key.

Of course, all you 'conservative' techies know this. Right?

MICHEAL GUMBY

so let me get this straight gumby. you prefer to sit by and defend these actions on the basis that everyone else is doing it(corporations), so why can't bush? poor mr. misunderstood bush. does amazon have the power to lock you with out a trial or lawyer? no. is amazon out there to protect freedom under the guise of our government? no. they are out there to make money. not protect freedom. i understand the comprimise that is being made with wire-tapping, protect american lives at the cost of privacy. who would say no to that. not you i guess. live on your knees?

Everybody quit worrying. Relax, have some Victory gin.

Ed,

From the USA Today article:

"The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said."

"Working under contract" certainly implies a payment for services to me. To think otherwise is naive.

The idea that people don't care if the government knows who we call or who call us is on it's face, plain stupid.
I would agree with the logic IF the proper protocol were followed. The problem is that without a paper trail, we will NEVER KNOW how this info is used. Imagine how it could be mis-used. Very Orwellian if you ask me. I agree with a previous poster, I too don't recognize this country.
BTW: Terror is not fought with WAR, but VIGILANCE.

this is for all the "if you got nothing to hide why care" people out there. Because that isn't a good enough reason for the government to go rifling thru private records without a warrant. Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't mean I'm opening my life up to the government just so they know I'm not a terrorist. That's not how it works! Regardless if anyone had stuff to hide or not. It's called Law and Order. If there's no punishment for them breaking laws then order goes out the window!

And for the people who say they aren't Bush apologists and then say this is another liberal media spin job, yes you are. You are indeed an apologist. The media has been limp for years and now that they have finally woken up and decided to ask some tough questions, everything they report is spin. You drank WAAAY tooo much of the Kool Aid.

And if Bush were so concerned with Al Qaida, where's Osama? Why didn't we finish the job in Afghanastan? Why hasn't the most advanced military in the world caught a carpet bagging, terrorist whose hiding in the mountains? Because we decided to attack another country that had no Al Qaida ties but lots of oil.....

Oh people, you'll see. Hopefully the party that represents reality - The Democrats, will step up, grow some spines and win some elections this fall. Then congress can do what they are supposed to do, and hold this President accountable!

I just wished the Dem's would step up! This is a wonderful opportunity to kick them while they're down and I just don't see it happening.

I don't know why everyone is getting up in arms so much about this. To address a couple of the things said here...

It's not like they are actually to everyone's phone conversations, merely finding out who one called and for how long isn't the same as tapping one's phone. As well, tons of information is collected when you're surfing the internet, using internet shopping, etc, and it's much more personal that just one's phone records. Quite frankily (although, not to say that I'm a fan of Bush and the currect Executive branch, which I'm not fond of), the government must be allowed to do it's job, and they are in the position to see more of the "big picture" than those of us outside of higher levels of government, and thus is they need to trace phone calls to find patterns that lead to aggressors, they should be allowed to do so, and coming out to the public and explaining their reasons and there methods (and the public's call for such dialogue), is proposterous, because it destroys any chance the government has of using this to their advantage.

As for whoever said that if an Al Queada member calls you and puts you on the list of potential aggressors, it's not like Homeland Security is going to run in and kick your door down. They'll vet you I'm sure, they won't just lock you up. If you're innocent, it will show through in most cases I'm sure.

Also, the idea of war is fuzzy, as this is not the typical type of war, with a clearly defined enemy and recognizable groups of troops moving on eachother. But 9/11 was still a major act of aggression, and in today's world, war is taking on a different form. It's moved to different mediums (i.e. away from merely troops on the ground shooting at eachother to including psychological methods, and attacks on eachother through means such as the internet and mass media [e.g. the Al Quaeda leader in Iraq, his name escapes me at the moment]), and attacks between countries and groups take on many different forms. Perhaps we must reinvent our notion of the typical war, and not merely say "well, we're not in the prototypical war scenario, so the government should have absolutely no extra power", because it is a dangerous world and the US government will do what it must (although once again, moderation is key, and some outlandish actions that they've taken, e.g. the PATRIOT act, are merely ridiculous.

Conservatives have lost their value system.

Big government? When has the conservative base ever been FOR big government?

Every conservative organization from the NRA to the community church has been against the long reach of the law.

Now suddenly it's hip to be pro-big brother?

George Orwell is spinning in his grave.

OH SHUT IT "daryl" about the liberal press?!? this isn't about that. it's about you, me, and every other bloody american who cares about the 4th amendmendment (now go read it)

"Why worry? Unless you have something to hide." -- Nazi Germany, 1938.....

It is my understanding (as much as there can be at this point) that the data is being used to detect patterns, not just instances of a terrorist dialing a another number. The fact that a terrorist calls a pizza place doesn't mean it's a front for Al Queda. I think the analysts are looking for other types of patterns: geographic clustering; day and time patterns; length of calls. Data that can be used to better profile terrorists before tragedies happen. The government usually releases this information after a tragedy (a terrorists cell phone calls, locations etc.). I'm just glad to see they are being proactive.

Terrorists have learned to live among us and use our protections as their own. If they lay low and are law abiding "citizens" until an attack occurs (at which point they'll likely die), there would never be probable cause to open an investigation. Measures such as these give the government tools to prevent attacks before they happen. I'll accept the intrusion if it keeps me safe.

mh:

You are truly ignorant of the life that goes on around you.

Go back to watching Nickelodeon.

Hint: Call logs are just one vector of communication. There is other data being collected, however, that data is already public information.

Posted by: Ian Michael Gumby | May 11, 2006 2:36:24 PM

+++

Mr. Gumby:

You are the ignorant one.

The few intelligence officials who hadn't yet been muzzled said the same thing when this first came out as part of Admiral Poindexter's Total Information Awareness program: It is a monumental waste of time and effort.

Perhaps it is you who should tear yourself away from Nickelodeon, or 24 Hours.

Reading thru the earlier posts a number of mistakes are seen. 1) We have got to stop permitting the "liberal media" myth to persist. There is no "liberal media". 2) Where are the arrests of our enemies with the use of our illegally gathered phone records? Yes, it is illegal. Oh, I just give up. This administration is taking the freedoms they are trying to establish in Iraq and removing them from the USA. Obviously everyone can't have them so lets just let the countries with oil have them. Since our production is so low, we no longer deserve them. We need to remove this bunch of criminals now but it may already be to late.

"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history, it is the beginning! A sign from God, to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors. The 'Decree on the Protection of People and State' will give our State intelligence the ability to intercept mail and wiretap phones; ...to detect possible terrorist activity and patterns"

- Adolf Hitler (1933)

Hmmm.. Where have I heard that recently???

Ummm...if they released the numbers with no names attached to it, then how could they ever use the data once they found something?

No, at some point they would have to be able to identify the caller, the place the call was made, the length of the call, even which cell tower if it was a cellular call. If they need to be able to do that with one call, they could do it with every call.

With that information, they could get just about anything else they wanted from other Government databases.

Conservatism is Dead!

You have mislead this nation in every way imaginable.
You have expanded government.
You have exploded our budget and debt.
You have killed innocent people.
You have claimed to be Christian.
You have lied continually.
You have diminished freedom.
and on and on and on...

Somebody please explain how wiretapping innocent Americans without a paper trail is good for America.

RE: Mark

I do agree with you that the Iraq war was bull, but to suggest that the US is not under duress and that we do not have enemies who are attempting to strike us NOW is outright stupidity. No, we aren't in a classic "war", and yes, the president has taken advantage of the situation to give himself a larger degree of power, but there are threats to us from groups such as Bin Laden's or from nations such as Iran.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the "war" on Iraq did serve some purpose? (at least at the beginning... I would agree that now it's doing nothing but bogging the gov't down). But after futile responses to attacks in the past (e.g. Clinton firing missles at a useless factory in response to an Al Quaeda act of aggression), and the mistreatment of Islamic allies (e.g. The cold war), that the US needed to show a strong face, to prevent further attacks? And to show any reluctant allies that they were powerful, thus giving them access to more intelligence from other nations to root out terrorists? To merely toss aside the Iraq War and the like as useless merely because some phone calls were monitored is ridiculous.

Remember the muslim-convert chaplain at Guantanamo who was charged with treason and when they realized he was innocent, got him anyway because he'd had an affair, ruining his life with the publicity and humiliation? You don't have to do something illegal to be ruined by having your private life made public.

Had enough yet?

The ONLY 'Liberal' media is Air America.

The rest are really enablers of this Goebbel-esque lie we are not falling for. You know, the lies about 911, terror, and motives for war.

Impeachment is not an understatement. This administration is a serial violator of the constitution. The 4th amendment is not an optional rule, its the law of the land.

Spying on innocent Americans, isn't that unAmerican?

Why are we letting the the white house run the country like a monarchy?

Telecom companies should be held accountable for violating our privacy. The gov't asks them for records that we entrust with them, and they give it up without a warrant?? It is up to consumers, whose rights are being violated, to object. This is how it is supposed to work in a free market--take your business elsewhere

Disband the major Telecom companies, give consumers providers to choose from, and only the ones who protect our rights will last

In the meantime, all who have the option should switch to Quest

BTW I think disbanding the effective monopoly is also the solution to gas prices

For Two years I have been shouting from the roof topthat Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice should be tried as war criminals for what the have done to the citizens of Irag 100.0000 killed???? how many mamied ?

Now they are listening to our phone calls. I thought Hitler and Stalin were long dead. Guess I was wrong!

why dont you guys just call the patriot act the violation of privacy act. he has a approval rating of 33percent does he think that ease dropping is going to help-

IT DOSEN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHO IS IN OFFICE. A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, OR PREHAPS AN INDEPENDENT. IT IS MY OPINION THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MISLEAD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO THE DEPTH OF IT'S CLANDISTINE GATHERING OF INFORMATION USED TO FIND TERRORISTS.

"I'll accept the intrusion if it keeps me safe."

- Sean

I bet you would have sided with the Royalists back in '76... Move back to England and be a good little subject.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Hurray for QUEST !!!

OH, these are a good start, but you are good for more. So far we have: Facism, letters to FOIA, Quotes from Pogo, 1984, martial law. Someone brought up the boston tea party.

Looks like some of you even went to Wikipedia!!!

Now go back and read the USA today article and match it up with your hysterical posts

See if they match.

They aren't just going to spy on al-qaeda. They will spy on liberals too. They /are/ spying on liberals. This has come up time and time again. And of course by "liberal" you mean "anyone that doesn't agree with the administration". Of course, if you stand with the administration you have nothing to worry about it. People who are supporting this president and the NSA in these actions seem highly unamerican to me, regardless of whatever terrorist threat is out there: there will always be a threat in any society. The point of a free society is not to live in hysteria over them.

Otherwise, get your stinking taps off of my data.

Advocate encryption!

-- an annoyed "liberal"

We should all start making random phone calls to folks with Arab sounding names, just to say "hi."

Oh! But wait, then we might be accused of being terrorists... my bad... because anyone making a phone call on a regular basis to someone with an Arab sounding name is OBVIOUSLY a terrorist. So much that we should all waive our constitutional rights to our wise executive branch.

Go George, get'er done! More power to ya buddy!

For those who say they have no concern about NSA surveillance because they "have done nothing wrong," think again. Doing nothing wrong, in fact, has become a mark of Caine.

Having worked in federal government, I can assure you that your definition of doing "wrong" is very different from that of the politicos who are now running things. Just as they are driving honest employees and scientists from the civil service, they are likely to use the information they collect to deny others who oppose corruption and lies access to jobs, contracts, services, and possibly much more.

I have also witnessed secrecy and classification being used for no purpose except to hide government incompentence and to keep citizens ignorant about information the need to protect themselves from harm.

To those who believe they can trust government, I say, you're only guessing. But, I know differently.

How much more proof do we need that this administration -- and the Republican Party as a whole -- are criminal?

Anyone who apologizes for them, supports them, or votes for them in the next round of elections is simply begging for more abuse at their hands.

It's a pity that most of the public is too fat, lazy and TV-addicted to do something concrete about them, like vote every last one and their miserable party out of office and out of existence.

I am truly worried about our future. I fear Bush and his 'advisors' have a larger scheme up their sleeves, and the only way for him to pull 'it' off will be for another 911, in order to falsly unify the country so he can continue his "righteous" march to domination for global corporatists.
He has PROVEN himself and his cronies to be untrustworthy at every turn.
Abuse of power is an understatement.

to dave,
you mention that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. But, if this program functions as described than the information collected is completely independent of content, i.e. what is being analyzed is merely call patterns and not the content of conversations. So even those doing absolutely nothing wrong will no doubt be pegged due to a call pattern that resembles one that the NSA has decided is 'suspicous'. They'd have no way of knowing you are not malicious until they actually listen to the content. Remember, the program, as described, does not collect information about content or the identities of those making calls. So false positive designations would put completely innocent people with 'nothing to hide' under the watch of the NSA.

IMPEACH NOW IMPEACH NOW IMPEACH NOW IMPEACH NOW IMPEACH NOW IMPEACH THE NUT NOW

No uproar over telemarketers? At least our weak kneed congress got us a "no caller" list for what it is worth... is there a "no government monitor" list that I can get myself on?

What I'm really more worried about is the cost of such an undertaking! When I look at our government's ineptitude in handling everything from Katrina refugees to foreign policy why should I have any confidence that they can make any sense of what has just been called "the world's largest data base". They can't even get the medicare/medicaid data base figured out. Our tax dollars hard at waste... tsk tsk... The irony is that I don't have children that the ballooning deficit will be passed on to, but I can take comfort in the fact that king george does have kids to pass the buck to.

Someday such a data base will be used to support the next "Neo-McCarthy" in his prosecution of the evil tide. I feel all the better knowing that the press is resting today so that the future Edward R. Morrow's will have plenty of energy to spring into action

"As for whoever said that if an Al Queada member calls you and puts you on the list of potential aggressors, it's not like Homeland Security is going to run in and kick your door down. They'll vet you I'm sure, they won't just lock you up. If you're innocent, it will show through in most cases I'm sure".

Um,....

"Coalition military intelligence officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake,"

So will they figure out I am innocent before or after they almost drown me, place lit cigarettes in my ears, force me to lie in my own feces, "palestinian hang" me and beat me to death, place me in a sleeping bag and beat me to death, oh you get the idea.

Hopefully I'll at least get my "honey glazed chicken" or "lemon baked fish," served with whole-wheat pita, various vegetables and fruit" first.

I can only say 2 things.

1) I am glad I live in Europe these days because the facist regime in America is beginning to make the KGB look like a Kindergarten picnic in the schoolyard. In the old days it was to 'keep you safe from the Pinko Commie threat' now the language has changed but it's the same thing. 'we must tell you how to save you from your self, and from terrorism. So wear this seatbelt and let us trample your rights.'

2) Whether or not you are doing something wrong is not the question. It is a question of civil liberties and of privacy. As American citizens we are guaranteed certain rights by way of the U.S. Constitution, a much maligned and cuckolded document of late. You might as well crack open it's nearly impervious casing and use it as toilet paper because that is what the pretender to the oval office is doing these days.

Hey, Dave - Why draw the line at wiretapping? Unless YOU have "something to hide"! Our government has become a toy to be manipulated at whims of men, rather than be limited to the dictates of law. Both Republicans and Democrats are to blame, and it is changing our nation from a pinnacle of civil liberty to a festering swamp of oppression and "group rights". Under such circumstances we all have things to hide, it's just that we aren't all smart enough to realize that...

JD -

Pro or con... at least they stand for something. You have yet to even post a opinion; try standing up for once.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."
-- Alexander Hamilton

"If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last." -- Ronald Reagan

#####

"The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them..." -- Mark Twain

>Do people think what the government did
>with phone records is really any worse (than Amazon)?

Yes ... it's far worse. Amazon wants to SELL us stuff and it gets here damn quick.

The *GOVERNMENT*, and especially this one, wants to slaughter people and rob them, rape them, torture them, and control them for MONEY for all the corrupt whores that crawled out of the oil filled sewers in Houston.

I-M-P-E-A-C-H

The hypocrisy of the Bush-haters is disgusting to say the least. You can't turn something legal into something illegal because of your politics. Everytime you turn on the t.v. your choice of entertainment is recorded. Phone companies have been keeping logs of who we call from their existence. The government is able to obtain copies simply because it's legal to do so. The left should be ashamed. You'd rather we be attacked, and innocent Americans die just so you can blame Bush. Disgusting. But you know what? This is the very issue that will cement another Republican victory in November. Dems just don't get it. And they'll be scratching their heads in bewilderment when it happens.

Paulie N, if Bush is no different than Hitler or Stalin then why do I have to still read obnoxious liberal moral equivalence and sensationalistic skewing of fact? Why aren't Bush's opponent's in a killing field or concentration camp already? To make such analogies makes a mockery of the millions of souls lost under Hitler and Stalin.

Armando, be our guest, you have every right to cancel your telephone service. But I guess you'd rather complain mindlessly.

J Guthrey, I seem to recall not that long ago when acts of terrorism were pursued as matters of law enforcement, as you now prescribe, and not war. Such backwards mentality led to the 1993 WTC bombing, Khobar Towers bombing, USS Cole bombing, Ryhadh US barracks bombing, and 9-11. Such mentality was cited by the 9-11 Committee as a key failure that ensured an inability to detect 9-11 plotters.

As for the rest of you, the law is not on your side, and neither are the related Supreme Court rulings. Time and again the Supreme Court has ruled that the government can, indeed, eavesdrop on its citizens without warrants.

One such example, in 1995's Vernonia School District 47J v. Acton, the Supreme Court stated: "Warrants cannot be issued, of course, without the showing of probable cause required by the Warrant Clause. But a warrant is not required to establish the reasonableness of all government searches; and when a warrant is not required (and the Warrant Clause therefore not applicable), probable cause is not invariably required either. A search unsupported by probable cause can be constitutional, we have said, “when special needs, beyond the normal need for law enforcement, make the warrant and probable-cause requirement impracticable."

Another example was the 2002 Hamdi decision, in which the FISA Court of Appeals itself said that the President has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches and that Congress could not abridge that authority.

So many of you cite "the law" and the "Constitution"... perhaps you should bother reading them first. The NSA program tramples nothing but terrorist plots.

If I were Al Qaeda, and I wanted to really screw up this country, at this point I would just start calling Americans at random from my cell phone in Pakistan. Next thing you know we would all be tied in knots.

What a tangled web we weave, when once we practice to deceive, one of our forefathers once wrote...

TCrush

Support Conservatives!
It's easier than thinking!

JHC, please explain why you would enjoy complete strangers, armed with money, guns, and a cloak of moral righteousness, actively looking for people to detain, torture and jail . . . sifting through your private business / phone records?

Please explain -- exactly -- logically -- how turning yourself into a slave of the right wing fascists will protect you from harm.

And please do explain how "Bush-haters" are hypocrits. How is it hypocritical to defend one's natural and Constitutional right to be free from malicious and illegal government spying?

To all of you who are defending this, and it's shocking to see that there are so many who think it's okay for the government to obtain phone logs of people who are not under suspicion of having committed a crime, consider for a moment that the government is once again being led by the Democratic Party. Still want your phone logs given to the government without cause?

Better yet, if the phone companies were required to ask when you obtain service if you want your phone records made available to the Federal Government, would you check the box for "yes?" I wouldn't think twice, whether there's a Dem or Rep in office, I don't want anyone examining my personal life when I've committed no crime.

What other travesties to our basic constitutional freedoms must we endure under the pretext “Fighting Terrorism”? The erosion of our basic liberties guarantied by the constitution is not a matter or partisan politics, or the liberal media. We must all stand up and hold our Government accountable. At one point I believe as many Americans did that perhaps our president had more insightful information when making his case for the Iraq war. Yet to my disdain everything was deceitfully masking reality. Now we are presented with yet another set of lies and deception. .

One thing I notice in this online conversation is that those people disturbed by these governmental activites are discussing, well, these activities. Whereas those people defending the government are spending more time attacking the the other side.

This is how the right works: when faced with defending the indefensible, don't bother, just attack those making the accusations. Label them "liberal" or "moonbat" or whatever nome de jour is making the rounds and ignore all rational argument because (their argument goes) this is nothing but "partisan screeching."

Notice how none of the people defending this administration's activities engage the ideas presented here by Casey, Ann, BrianH and others. What is the right's response to the obvious point that what Amazon does and what the government does are entirely different (one voluntary, one involuntary) and, even more importantly, have different ramifications (government has powers that no private company can have--the power to wiretap, the power to arrest, the power to imprison)?

The comparison between the federal government and an online vendor is revealed to be facile and abusrd, and the reason that presidential apologists won't engage in this disucssion seems pretty clear: when the right-wing talking points that they are spoonfed by Rush, Hannity, and company are confronted with a rational opposing voice, they are revealed to be the empty verbage that they really are.

What other travesties to our basic constitutional freedoms must we endure under the pretext “Fighting Terrorism”? The erosion of our basic liberties guarantied by the constitution is not a matter or partisan politics, or the liberal media. We must all stand up and hold our Government accountable. At one point I believe as many Americans did that perhaps our president had more insightful information when making his case for the Iraq war. Yet to my disdain everything was deceitfully masking reality. Now we are presented with yet another set of lies and deception. .

To all those haters...

kiss my butt, I can do what I want!

If this is all perfectly legal, why did Qwest refuse to play?
And does anyone know how I can get my phone number on the National Security Agency’s “Do Not Snoop” list?

Hitler: Made databases. Monitored records of each German citizen to identify 'problem' citizens.
Bush: NSA, Computer databases(from corporations)

Hitler: passed enabling act allowing ultimate unchecked power
Bush: 700+ signing statements allowing ultimate unchecked power.

Hitler: work camps for dissenters. Made people disappear.
Bush: Prisons without lawyers for those opposed to this administration.

The clamps are tightening, people. The writing IS on the wall. Bush's Grandpa was a Nazi. W was raised with these values through and through.

Spirit of 76, I love the quotes! No opinion needed here, just a few facts straight from the USA today story. A far cry from the hysterical slippery slope posts that the Bush haters are spewing.

"This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations"

"This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon"

"FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining,"

OK, we can all go home now.

JHC -

"You'd rather we be attacked, and innocent Americans die just so you can blame Bush."

Have you ever bother asking yourself why our interests are being attacked? To be attacked, we have to be somewhere. Why are we there? Better yet, what causes a people or culture to dislike another people or culture?

This country's leaders have a rather nasty habit of supporting some of the worst tyrants in history, needlessly entangling and endangering innocent Americans, in the furtherance of their self-benefiting schemes.

Whatever happend to the cry "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God" or to heeding the warning against foreign entanglements laid down by George Washington's farewell speech?

That you live in a country founded on the principles of personal liberty and consent and yet have the gall to defend the current state of affairs is the true hypocrisy here.

Question #1: Is the issue here that people don't like the Bush administration collecting the information or just that this is the first time in over 200 years you found out that this is being done?

To answer the question about why haven't arrests or cases or whatever been done using the collected information. It's because that WOULD be illegal. In general the laws over privacy state that you cannot use the information in a trial. The laws are actually pretty silent on the whole collection concept.

It's called analytics people. Look it up. What is all this @#%* about the constitution. Except for companies trying to sell you more crap you don't need, nobody is interested in listening in on your phone conversation. If you want to do something really worthwhile; why don't you overthrow this government. Stop this bull*&%$ whining.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

There is also a law on the books that declares when a President declares an "act of war", i.e. "War on Terrorism", be it even unlike a war as a WW or a cival war, the government has the right to confiscate anything of ours, any and all property, even weapons, bibles, trucks etc. including our privacy. It totally wipes out the above law we all hold dear....

We are in a bad way.....

"Why worry if you've got nothing to hide."

I do have something I should be hiding from this administration--my loathing of it. Because someday soon that will be illegal.

I have not heard a valid argument for how the gov't or the telecom companies did anything illegal here

The gov't only asked the telecom companies for our records. The gov't did not require the telecom companies to share our records--because in order to do that, they need a warrant, which they did not have. Nor did the gov't steal the info. It was given to them willingly. This is not illegal

The telecom companies can and do share our records with whomever they please, including the gov't, for any or no reason. This is also not illegal

It's like: If I went to your bank and asked for your money **without faking my identity** and your bank gives the money to me anyway. You would probably switch banks. You would be outraged and tell all of your friends to switch banks, too. Because your bank is incompetent and not worthy of your trust. Because your bank is probably in cahoots with me at your expense

But it would still not be true that the bank or I did anything illegal

I still think it's wrong, and laws should be put in place to make this illegal. But right now it's not illegal

In Germany, they came first for the commnists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists but I didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me & by that time nobody was left to speak for me.
Martin Niemoller, Dachau 1944

Matt has it just right. The right wing is fascist at heart; it believes only in its own power, it does not believe in either freedom, liberty or democracy for anyone but its own elites. This is a fascist government we have now, representing the corporate oligarchs that have bought themselves a government. God save us from this scum!

The evidence is all on Loose Change (free documentary, look it up on video.google.com) Plane hitting the Pentagon? it was a cruise missile. jadakiss was right, "bush knocked down the towers"

Did any one with a logical mind, help elect the current group?

For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.........

Again it seems people just don't get it.

1) Under the telecommunications act, as posted by another, releasing such information to the govt is not illegal.

2) Anyone bother to question the timing of this release? Hint: Who's gong in front of Congress to be confirmed as the new head of a certain agency.

3) Regardless of your politics. This is not an illegal act, nor is this new news.

4) Many jump on the govt for this, yet most of this information is heading overseas with little or no control. (Yet this is another issue.)

5) The companies themselves use this same information and monitor your use of the telco network in an effort to create or tweak services offered along with how to optimize their profits.

Oh there's more. And no I'm not defending any one politician or political party. The facts are that this information is important in homeland security.

What happened to the communications act of 1934 that bars phone companies from releasing information about callers??

This is yet another example of the Bush administration trampling on our most fundamental civil liberties in order to preserve our way of life... How's that for twisted logic?

How can a great nation like ours be so utterly terrified by a pathetic bunch of rag tag third world cowards that we are willing to sacrifice the very freedoms that brave Americans have died to defend?

Whatever is in our water and food or in the electronic waves, or just in the air, since Bush has been in office, I thought had pacified the intelligence and finer sensibilities of Americans-but today, in reading the comments, you have proved my theory wrong-America still has some fight left in it, to stand up for our liberties and our US Constitutional rights and our Bill of Rights. We never elected a monarch to the office of President, but one who swore that he would uphold our Constitution, and then he began to rule by Executive Order, thumbing his nose at the Constitution, banning protesting by fencing protestors inside high fences, wherever he visits in the USA, keeping them far enough away that they cannot be heard-then he admonishes other nations like Russia and China that they aren`t making enough advancements towards allowing individual freedoms! This infringement of privacy of hundreds of millions of Americans by disclosing their phone records has impeachment written all over it! It`s time for America to speak up and put a stop to this President`s agenda, and march on the White House from the Capitol building with such an enormous human wave of masses to put an end one way or another of this madness!
Pual M. Portland, Oregon

Its interesting...

Suppose you have terrorist A.
How do you link him to terrorist B, C, and D who may or may not be in the US.

Phone calls or phone usage is just part of the picture.

So suppose that No Such Agency intercepts a call from Pakistan to the US. The call was made to terrorist A. So how do you link him to B, C, and D?

So the govt gets a john doe sub to get all of the phone recods of Terrorist A, and those of all the people that he's called. This takes time. Do they then go after another subpeona for all the people that terrorist A called? Maybe they then get another john doe sub for each of several potential suspects?

Under the law, the govt can do this, and nobody is the wiser. Or they can get these logs up front, build the database and then use the data along with other data when the call is intercepted, they can build a more accurate list of who is a suspected terrorist and then focus on those suspects. Less resources, less false positives...

Note this has nothing to do with politics. Dems or Reps has no bearing on the model or the system.

Hint: Entity Analytics ...

Excerpts from a speech given by General Hayden at the Nat'l Press Club, January 2006.

Let me talk for a few minutes also about what this program is not. It is not a driftnet over
Dearborn or Lackawanna or Freemont grabbing conversations that we then sort out by
these alleged keyword searches or data-mining tools or other devices that so-called
experts keep talking about.

This is targeted and focused. This is not about intercepting conversations between people
in the United States. This is hot pursuit of communications entering or leaving America
involving someone we believe is associated with al Qaeda.

So let me make this clear. When you're talking to your daughter at state college, this
program cannot intercept your conversations.

Let me emphasize one more thing...One
end of any call targeted under this program is always outside the United States.

Where I come from, this is called "lying" or, if you're a Bush fan, perhaps you prefer the phrase "flip-flopping with the truth"

For those who don't get it....
Look up Entity Analytics

It should explain a lot...
Nothing new here.

Except that the one question not being asked.

Why was this information leaked one week prior to a certain congressional confirmation hearing....

And that's the sad thing about this story.

One detail, as you may all remember, the wiretapping done was not within the "rules" and process put in place, not because they would require previous court authorization BUT, because they would require proper notice to court AFTER THE FACT, and this was not being done.
So, the excuse that "we can't be asking permission for all the spying, because would take to long and we would have lost the right time", is a lame one.
And of course, not to mention, the current govt is not exactly a bastion of right and truth....

Why did Porter Goss step down? Is it because he beleives this program may not be legal?

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27network.html

Here is another FYI for Daryl (I know he looks forward to constructive criticism, his tired "liberal press" kneejerk comments notwithstanding, because he's chosen to post in an open forum where discussion is encouraged).

In addition to what everyone else has told you, Daryl, Amazon is a private company tracking their own business. This is similar to what credit card companies do, or any other merchant who uses information to better target consumers, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of domestic spying.

Although there are many legal subtleties to it, it can be broken down very simply. This most recent flap in domestic spying means that some part of the government, which actively communicates with another part of the government--the executive branch--that is energetic and vote-seeking, shares information about our private phone calls, about our lives.

We are simply asked to "trust" them on this most slippery of slopes that they are merely data mining patterns, and that they are not looking at the contents of our unauthorized, wiretapped conversations.

Do you honestly not see a difference between buying a book on Amazon.com and last night's conversation with your girlfriend?

I know you're smarter than that, Daryl.

The difference between Amazon and the government, is that I KNOW they are doing this, and I CHOOSE to purchase from them. They do not go into my home and look at the books that I have. However the government is doing exactly that.

-Edward

Justin...

I don't think you understand what I am saying....

1) People complain about the govt trampling on our rights, yet private companies have been trampling on your rights without anyone complaining.

2) The action taken by the NSA on this is within the law. Were they to eavesdrop, then that would be a different issue.

3) To the poster who said..."If an terrorist called your phone by accident, you're now on the NSA hotlist...." The answer to that is no. You wouldn't be. Thats part of the system. It will allow the agencies to better identify potential terrorists and threats.

The key is understanding the bigger picture.
Do your homework.... Entity Analytics. Its not just something used by the govt. But others corporations too...

Arizona Senator Kyl's talk of "the enemy" makes me feel that somehow, when I wasn't looking, I and my fellow citizens became the enemy. I have nothing to hide, but if someone wants to look at my phone calls they can ask me first or follow the law. And as for the reassurance that there was no wiretapping? I take it with a grain of salt. Every week, heck EVERY DAY, there is a new scandal coming out from Washington. The stories change daily and we can't count on this administration to give us the whole truth about anything. Why would this situation be any different?

I am voting with my dollar--Verizon is my wireless and AT&T is my home phone company, but not for very much longer. As of this week, I'll be switching to a company that did not provide private information. It's a small thing--but I'm doing it and I'm going to try to convince everyone I know to do the same. Why should I remain loyal to a company that is not loyal to me?

Hal - I agree with your comment, "What Bush is doing has nothing to do with protecting us from anything, but making the U.S. a totally fascist state. The similarities between Bush's government today and Adolf Hitler's in 1939 are astonishing."
Having just read a fascinating book on what was happening in 1939 Germany, I as shocked at how closely it paralleled the present actions by this administration.

John B - "What I have not heard (yet) is a single instance of anyone being charged with any crime or offense not associated with al Qaeda as a result of the domestic spying being performed by the NSA." Surprised. There is no law (other than whatever the administration decides). Illegal detainment - without legal representation (including a U.S. citizen I might add) has been going on for some time now.

J Guthrey - "The biggest error is classifying 9/11 as 'an act of war'. Those were Bush's words and they've been exploited for political purposes." Thank you, J.G.!! We were attacked by small (compared to the world's armed forces) band of terrorists - not a foreign army(ies). If we cannot defnd ourselves against a group of terrorists without subjugating the constitutional rights of our citizens, then 'God Help Us' if we ever do have to go into a real war.

M.H - "I-M-P-E-A-C-H" - that may be all that can save what's left of our constitutional government. We've impeached over a president getting a blowjob in the Oval Office, and then naively standby while this administration lies, cheats, kills, and ignores the laws of our nation. We're going downhill fast, and in the end we will be responsible for its fall; by idly standing by and doing nothing to right the wrong.

Greg B -

Do not pretend that warrantless searches are not controversial.

"Time and again the Supreme Court has ruled that the government can, indeed, eavesdrop on its citizens without warrants."

Withstanding on how generic this statement is, taken at face, this statement is simply false.

Maybe, you were refering to so-called pen-registers, which are simply content neutral lists of associated numbers, but you did not say that.

Indeed, since you fancy yourself such the scholar, you will recall the famous United States vs. U.S. District Court, 407 U.S. 297, in which the SCOTUS ruled unanimously against the, then, President Nixon, that there was no "constitutional authority to wiretap Americans' phone calls to protect national security without asking a judge."

Time and again? I think not. A warrant IS required.

Do you even understand the following finding you quoted? Do you even realize that it contradicts what you claim? Lets take a look:

"Warrants cannot be issued, of course, without the showing of probable cause required by the Warrant Clause."

Yup...

"But a warrant is not required to establish the reasonableness of all government searches;"

No problem here... as some government searches are consensual, fit 'plain view' doctrine, or are made in good faith.

"and when a warrant is not required (and the Warrant Clause therefore not applicable), probable cause is not invariably required either."

Oops! Read it again! Those searches that do not fit the several specific exceptions, are required to be warranted. And you dare to preach to others on knowing the law? But wait... there is more:

"Another example was the 2002 Hamdi decision, in which the FISA Court of Appeals itself said that the President has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches and that Congress could not abridge that authority."

You should be more careful when you grep comments off the net... The court said no such thing and if you actually read the finding you would know that this quote deals with the pre-FISA Truong Court. And as you will see, "the Truong case dealt with the President’s power in the absence of a congressional statute."

"The 2002 Appeals Court Myth"
[ http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/21/appeals-court-myth ]

Please read it and stop parroting lies.

So, we'll impeach a president for getting a bj in the white house, yet another one who violates intelligence agreements because they're weren't convenient and "we're at war" and yet there's still very little talk of impeachment?

Where's the WMDs, Bush? Not there, eh. But the oil is! How many shares of the oil companies are still in your portfolio, eh? Sure you don't work for them any more, but that doesn't mean you're not still getting paid!

Even better, now we have #1 and #2 supporting a run for #3 for the office. So much for "presidents limited to 2 terms to prevent them getting too much power.".

The Bush administration -- 16 years, going on 24.

God help us all.

I do not want the government to know who I am calling period. I do not want to know that every call I make is being logged in some data base and noted for future reference. I have done nothing wrong and do not want the personal details of my life like who I call logged by anyone.

I thought I had the right to make a private phone call without fear the government was watching who I called.

I can not trust this government to save me in a hurricane, in a flood, or stop 20 amateurs with box cutters from hijacking my plane. I can not trust this government to stop reading to school children when my plane is hi jacked. I can not trust this government to catch the terrorists who ran those hijackers.

I can not trust this government to invade a country based on solid and honest intelligence. I can not trust this country not to sell off port security to a nation that has harbored terrorists.

And I certainly can not trust them to log my calls "in good faith"

Yes. I have had enough.

Ian,

What you are saying is that you approve of the state collecting YOUR personal information, which the state may then use for whatever end it sees fit. And you're also saying that you're perfectly content to allow the state to do that to everyone else, too.

What if the state decided that it did not like someone's purchases of anti-cholesterol prescriptions from Canada . . . or someone's phone calls to a naughty phone fantasy number . . . or . . . Ian, why don't you fill in the next blank with a legal activity that, at the same time, you would not want the state to know about.

You might want to remember, the state is staffed with people, on average, less intelligent and less honest than whomever you know in your personal life, that you consider to be a walking pile of dog flop. Think of a neighbor or co-worker. Then think of that person, only worse, pawing through your private information in order "to protect you from yourself and terrorists."

Then please reconsider your attitude that state spying is acceptable in a free country.

And, by the way, what good has any of this administration's efforts at protecting "homeland security" done for anyone in the general public?

Nothing.

Who has been protected?

Nobody. And why do I suggest that?

Because there was no real threat from any terrorists to begin with. The original 9/11 attacks were, when you look at them objectively, pathetically small disruptions that targeted very small-scope areas.

They did less damage than any one of any of hundreds of our country's bombing attacks on various targets overseas.

The vast majority of our country (I would submit, over 99 percent), have NEVER been any real danger of any kind of terrorist threat at any time before 9/11 to present.

This administration has been nothing but a gigantic crime against our country and against our personal human freedoms.

I say KUDOS to QWEST for considering the privacy of their customers. If anything this news is great PR for that company.

I wonder though, I for one, would like to know if the NSA has been or intends to manipulate it's database to see who Fitzgerald's office is calling and how often or how often potential Abrahanoff witness are calling that office, or the Texas prosecuter's office phone calls, perhaps they can track calls to anonymous witnesses, or even more interesting.

It has nothing to do with anything to hide, it has to do with right to privacy and as far as I'm concerned it's no one's business how often my child calls grandma.

JD,

We cannot go home until you have your facts straight.

Posting random quotations from the USA Today article is not intelligent conversation, and you cannot make a point by doing so.

Instead, let's have some intelligent conversation right now. I'll even address your quotations to get the dialogue going.

"This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations"

That's correct. The government in this case is relying on the phone companies to do that first. (Unauthorized, illegal NSA wiretaps are a separate issue for the currently paid administration to explain to the good people of the United States. They'll most likely have the opportunity to make that explanation in the courts, which is where illegal activity is handled.)

"This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon"

The depth of this data collection is unprecedented, as is the permanence, as is the government involvement, as is the "mining" itself. All of those things are thorougly uncommon, if not illegal. That's for the courts--and most especially the voters--to decide.

"FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining"

Yes it does, by extension, if that data is first obtained through illegal wiretaps. Of course, illegal wiretaps are a separate problem for the currently paid administration (see the first quotation), and FISA has nothing to do with today's revelation in domestic surveillance. FISA is besides the point; the currently paid administration is mired in many problems, and it is important not to confuse them.

It is EVERYBODY that is being watched.
Heil! Herr Bush.
Once you are on a list how do you go about getting off of it? How do you know you're on it?

This is freaking CRAZY! It is a well orchestrated clamping down of our liberties, invoking 9/11 at each twist of the clamp. Damn!

Gumby (Ian Michael) - thanks for pointing out Entity Analytics... no one really cares that you went to community college.

Thanks Greg B for the first sane post on this topic. The hysteria here is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

We are so deeply mired in dishonestly that we no longer have any idea what truth is. This is a slippery slope and reminiscent of another dark time in history. I fear for all of us.

We need to be safe but not at the cost of liberty. Too many have died protecting our Constitution. It is what sets us apart from the rest of the world, and has made us the power that we are. To throw it away reduces us and makes us ever more vulnerable.

Ian, it doesn't have to stop at wiretapping according to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez. All of you who keep insisting that it has to or does, have not been following the news very closely. Gonzales already testified in early April before Congress that according to the administration's point of view, they CAN legally wiretap calls BETWEEN AMERICANS WITHOUT A WARRANT. --

He would not rule in or out that they were doing that.

All of you who don't have a problem with that, I wonder if you will feel that way if Hillary or some other far left liberal gets into office and starts using these tools.

Where would the brainwashed, frightened, and semi-illiterate be without Fox News and the corporate media to shape their thoughts and opinions for them?

Where would Bush be? Far below 31%, thats for sure.

Where would America be? Not in Iraq. Not chasing non-existent WMDs (remember that, before "freedom and democracy" became the new justification?).

Not pursuing "terrorist" like unions, vegans, college students, priests, and grandmothers practicing their Constitutional rights to free speech and assembly. Looks like now just owning a phone makes you a suspect (HINT-with this administration EVERYONE IS A SUSPECT, including those with "nothing to hide")

We would not have a record deficit. And not passing an emergency spending bill one week (in other words, we're out of money and have to get a loan) and then passing a 70 billion dollar TAX CUT the next week (releasing those with the greatest ability to pay from the obligation that the middle and lower classes must bear).

America sleeps through the war, and all of the indicators before and after thatwhich told you what this government has become. Torture. Kidnapping. Gitmo. Extraordinary Rendition. Deceit. Lies. Oppression. Tyranny. America sleeps while the Constitution is discarded. It sleeps as the last few specks of true American ideals, our dreams and potential, are given to the highest bidders for pennies on the dollar.

Shame on you all. You've let this happen, and now you think petty discourse on the net will change things? It only makes you feel better, which is an excuse that has allowed all of this to occur. Quit talking to like-minded friends, or pointlessly arguing in the safe confines of the virtual community, and get out there and make a LEGAL, financial, and political change.

"Why worry? Unless you have something to hide. "

Here's a reason to worry, Dave: http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/weaver.shtml

It's the story of the US government snooping on an innicent family and the FBI shooting an innocent woman and child.

"I don't care if the government knows who I call or who calls me. As long as they don't listen in on my calls without a warrant or probable cause. I draw the line at wiretapping."

All Americans, on the right and the left, have something to worry about when the government interferes in our lives.

You've heard the sarcastic line, "We're from the government, and we're here to help," haven't you?

If this government can see WMDs in Iraq where there are none, I don't want them looking in my back yard. There's no telling what they'll imagine they see back there. Just ask Randy Weaver.

I'm not the enemy.

Brian

Sure companies like Amazon have far more information on us, and they use it. But they don't have the right to misuse that information, enter your house, arrest you, send you to guantanamo, or deny you a trial, either. Neither should your government. And if some citizen had asked our major carriers for that information without a warrant, they would have been quickyly shown teh door, and probably reported for even asking.

And if we allow the government free access to otherwise private matters without probable cause and/or a court order, then we as American citizens are effectively guilty until proven innocent, innocence proved only by dying without ever misusing their phone.

That seems to be what Jon Kyl from Arizona is saying too, that the American people are considered enemies by the administration. He said the government is doing this to America's enemies, and since they are doing it to US, then they must consider the American people their enemies.

What better way to create a new 'terrorist' than by making 'enemies' out of 'citizens'.

As some other wise readers have posted, a war against a faceless, intangible enemy will never end. We will fight it until we are all dead, or we agree to peace.

Even in peace, crime still exists. In war government can get away with greater crimes than they could ever prevent. Even United 93 provides testimony to the brave American CITIZENS who protected our government, diverting a seized plane from crashing into the Capitol or White House, presumably. Examine this further please - what if this had been a successful attack? What if the Capitol had been hit? Congress would be dead, and the White House would not have to veto anything, they would have absolute unchecked power, at least temporarily. and if the White House was hit? George was in Florida - the terrorists surely knew this, so would they have targeted an effectively empty White House?

Why did Bush sit there on Sept 11th reading after he had been told of the terrorist attack? Was he waiting for the rest of the crashes to happen before he rose to take control? Wouldn't YOU have risen to your feet at first word of such an attack? Is President Bush THAT cool under pressure (you've seen him answer tough questions coolly, right?) that he could sit still after the surprise of such a horrific attack? Just asking - not accusing, but we need to ask the hard questions, don't we?

Ya know,
anon is right. We should be listening to Jadakiss and watching documentaries that are free on the web to get the truth.

Also, its great to see the Bush=Hitler analogies/conspiracies are alive and well.

I'm sure those still alive who actually suffered under Hitler's regieme will identify with your current (imagined) suffering.

A few thoughts & general responses:

1. Re the "liberal media": My spouse is a reporter, and a liberal. Most *reporters* are, except on economic issues -- maybe it's because they're in the business of observation, & what they observe causes them to reach conclusions that give them "liberal" opinions. However, the *publishers* -- TV, radio, print, Internet -- are overwhelmingly conservative, & it is they who decide what information gets disseminated & what "spin" gets put on it, not the reporters. A common joke amongst those in the news biz is, "It's a free press -- if you *own* the press." The company for whom my spouse works has or has had as board members the following Left-Wing, Pinko, Bleeding-hearted, card-carrying, baby-eating Liberals: Conrad Black, Jim Thompson (Republican ex-governor of Illinois), Richard Perle ("said to be the person behind the US policy on Iraq" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Perle ), and Henry Kissinger. The very newspaper that sponsors this blog has the reputation of being extremely conservative in its editorial outlook. Shall I mention the "Fair and Balanced" Fox News? WHAT "Liberal Media"?

2. Re Bush and his administration; they have:
A) Lied countless times, about far too many things to list here.
B) Detained thousands (including American Citizens), in secret places, without access to legal counsel, for time periods without stated limit, and without informing the detainees' families of their whereabouts, status, or even existance.
C) Taken credit for the creation and implementation of the Homeland Security Act, when in actuality the entire plan was waiting for them when Bush took office. The plans were made by members of the Clinton administration, who saw al Qaeda as the biggest threat to our security; Bush's people refused to take this opinion seriously until *after* 9/11. Bush didn't even coin the phrases "War on Terror" or "Homeland Security"; Clinton and his cabinet were the authors.
D) Authorized the use of torture, whether tacitly, by "looking the other way", as in Abu Gareeb; or directly, by taking suspects to countries where torture was legal and then acquiring the data that the torture produced.
E) Attempted (and possibly succeeded in) stealing the election for President in 2000.
F) Now, and it comes as little surprise, apparently spying, on an unprecedentedly mass basis, on the telephone records of the citizens of the U.S.A., without warrants or any other judicial oversight. (Of course the phone records thing is just the latest news on the subject; we already knew they were making lists of what books we checked out at the library.)

Does anyone really believe that this bunch will stop at *anything* in the course of furthering their agenda(s)?

It was said here earlier that Bush isn't a Conservative -- Hear! Hear! True Conservatives, Republican or not, alive or dead, from Lincoln on down (with the possible exception of Nixon, who's wishing he'd had that much chutzpah), should be wallowing in their own vomit of shame that this man and his cronies dare call themselves "Conservatives" or "Republicans". I'm a Democrat by nature, but I *have* voted for Republicans on occasion; Gerry Ford was my representative in congress, & he got my vote ('though not for President), because he'd done a good job for Michigan & was more qualified than his competitor. The same was true of Michigan Governor George Romney. These men were also the kind of Republican/Conservative we don't seem to have many of any more; ones who wouldn't blow the largest surplus our nation has ever seen on wars of personal vengeance and tax cuts for their rich buddies.

Gumby,

I don't think you understand the difference between corporations and governments.

1) Americans have complained about corporations sharing information provided. Thats why when you are asked for personal information today you often see a information sharing policy statement.

2) There seems to be a lack of clarity regarding the legality of the NSA actions

3) The investigative policies of the NSA are not a matter of public record. Clearly you don't work for the NSA because disclosing who would or would not be investigated would be grounds for termination.

The key is understanding the bigger picture.

Do your homework, the key to 'Entity Analytics' is annonimity. If the government finds a trend they feel is improper, they can identify the individual.

If the US government was a Corporation the CEO would have been fired long ago.

This is great. The Media keeps taking these "leaks" which are set up by the government to catch the leakers. The NSA leaker of this story is now known (verified) by the government.

Newsflash: Telemarketers have more info about your phone calls than the government.

Boo hoo.

all evils have been done under the pretext of fighting terrorists/evil-doers. a good doctor tries the less intrusive first. before we sacrifice lives and privacy, while damaging our finance, we should simply lessen our aid to Israel. this is not pure fantacy--a whole bunch of our most reputable experts on world affairs (scholars, veteran foreign service/intellegence workers, people who concentrate on American interests)believe a large portion of our terrorist problem is the result of our misled mid-east policy. Yes, there is the now famous mearsheimer/walt paper (google them if you have not read it)--but they are simply giving voice to a long held consensus. It's that simple! the two professors are pessimistic on how such a simple deed could be accomplished--but i say (actually sent the two an e-mail) we americans are a practical bunch. if we can avoid a large portion of danger while saving some dough--WHY NOT? why not, at least, give it a try?

Article Summary: Liberals and the Dinosaur Media fighting for terrorist rights...so Al Qaeda doesn't have to.

All else aside, that is the STUPIDIST way to try to catch terrorists that I have ever heard.

I had wondered why "throwaway" phones with preprogrammed minutes are widely sold, until my daughter explained that drug dealers use them. By constantly changing phones and phone numbers, they evade capture.

Are we to assume that terrorists haven't figured this out?

The sad part about the fake GWB comment above, is that he would make such a comment. Once, early on in his first term, he quoted part of a verse of what Jesus said: "he that is not for us is against us" (meaning, against Christ and his followers) but Jesus completed his verse with, and he that gathereth not with us, scattereth abroad", Matthew 12:30. What has been happening in Bush`s "crusade"(his own word) into Iraq is more like scattering the world ( Europe,and Canada, and the people of Iraq) away from and not towards America, and Christianity; and it will ultimately lead to Armageddon, where East meets West in a final battle over oil, Revelation 16:12-16. I like Bill Clinton`s comment:(something) about his enemies doing him good by telling him his faults. That was more humility than a president normally will show.A respectful president would never boast that he has the last say-he makes the decisions- so that requires more of an unassuming aire, rather than a bullyish retort.Paul M., Portland, Oregon

These stories are ridiculous. They aren't monitoring everyone's calls. They're looking for patterns. And why is this out now when Hayden has just been nominated? Anyone with a functioning brain can see that the timing is suspect.

First, people said Bush didn't "connect the dots" to stop 9/11 and then they attack him when information is illegally leaked about trying to stop other attacks.

Sorry, we can't have it both ways. I don't know about you, but I EXPECT calls certain places to be checked out.

I blame a) whoever leaked the information; he or she should probably be prosecuted, and b) the media for running the story as something new.

All of this goes back to before Bush and before 9/11 and all of sudden it's brand new? And you wonder why readership in the media is trending downward.

I am a veteran and a Republican this is not what I served for.This NSA bank has nothing to do with the war.No one is above the law and this break any law on the books.You got to ask why J.Dennis Hastert won't have hearings on this outrages act.What is he trying to hide.My rights I earned in the service of God and Country my phone calls are mine not the governments.I do nothing wrong but does not matter no one has a right to make a bank of our calls.Freedom is earned and these rights are every Americans.9-11 does not give Bush the right to break the law.How do we know these calls where not heard for political reasons.With all the deceptions of the White House and Congress we need the truth from our government now not RNC spin.

NSA to terrorist: "We don't want your name. We just want your information."

Terrorist: "Okay. We're going to blow you up."

NSA: "Okay. Now that we have that straight. What is your name?"

Terrorist: "Osama bin Laden."

NSA: "Great. What is your location?"

Terrorist: "Tora Bora."

NSA: "Great. Where is that, exactly?"

I think people are beginning to understand that patriotism doesn't mean hooting from the stands at Wrigley at the final strains of the Star Spangled Banner. You've got to stand up for your rights. Resist tyranny and oppression at home.

(Who knew the Anthem was four times as long as I thought? See the full song at http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0194015.html)

Anyway, like all lazy nations, we got the government we deserved. I know way too many people who fell for the rhetoric about Saddam and WMDs and a Global War of Terror and sided with Bush the second time around.

They didn't get upset about torture in Iraq or about illegal detentions at Guantanamo, not about 2,000 dead American soldiers lost for no good reason...not about 29% interest rates on credit cards...not about our diminished standing in the world.

The administration had effectively demonized the rest of the world and anyone who opposed the government's way of thinking.

But maybe finally this alarm bell will rouse the American public from its sleep about this administration. They've been playing fast and loose with the Constitution, and that's really all we have protecting us.

And a note to Greg B., who wrote: "Such backwards mentality led to the 1993 WTC bombing, Khobar Towers bombing, USS Cole bombing, Ryhadh US barracks bombing, and 9-11. Such mentality was cited by the 9-11 Committee as a key failure that ensured an inability to detect 9-11 plotters."

I think you've grossly oversimplified things. The biggest rpoblem was probably that the relevent agencies didn't talk to each other. At one point, Clinton was hampered from going after Bin Laden because the Lewinsky matter had just exploded and he feared it would have looked like a wag the dog scenario.

The reason we didn't detect the 9/11 plotters is that airline security was a joke, with bored high school droputs running the x-ray machines, and there was an unwillingness to tell someone that he wouldn't be flying as planned.

Before the TSA was invented, the same company that hired security workers also hired baggage handlers and people to push your grandmother around in a wheelchair.

And for all you people who defend the war in Iraq, did you really care what was happening there before the war and do you feel safer now?

Figure it out, people. This administration does not care about you. Look at the results of the extension of Bush's tax cuts.

"The overwhelming share of the tax cuts the Senate voted to extend will flow to the wealthiest taxpayers. People earning $1 million a year would save about $42,700, and reap about 22 percent of the total tax cut, according to the Tax Policy Center, a research group in Washington. People earning $40,000 to $50,000 a year would save about $47 and receive less than 1 percent of the benefits."

Forty-seven dollars!?!?! That's won't buy you a cup of coffee a week for one year.

Ironically, this phone program is supposed to find patterns in the calls people make. The public should see that pattern in the behavior of this administration.

Communist Russia and Communist China are supposed to be the ones with the secret prisons, not the USA.

Bush math: NSA+CIA=TIA
C'mon, you remember TIA, or Total Information Awareness?
Just because Americans and Congress said, "No way!" a few years ago to the government monitoring our every move doesn't mean that the same hideous beast isn't still being built in every respect save its acronym.
Negroponte is Bush's surrogate Poindexter. The ideas never went away, just the expendable people.
This is the latest brazen push to vacuum all available information, data, or other "intel" with the goal of empowering the collectors--which it will. But that's not saying any good can come of it.
It's a misguided, foolhardy persuit that dismisses our right to any semblance of privacy or true protection from our own government (never mind al Qaeda) set out portentously in the Constitution for just such an occasion.
I'm betting heavily that Americans won't like this any better that the whole TIA leaden zeppelin. Unfortunately, that just means these domestic black ops go further underground.

Do you really think Bush's cavilier attitude toward privacy won't affect you unless you're a terrorist?

Yesterday, House Bill H.R. 4943, which would have stopped third-party vendors from buying your private cell phone records (who you called and when) from providers and selling them on the Internet, was mysteriously taken off the House docket by Dennis Hastert with no reason given.

Rep. Ed Markey has written a formal letter asking for an explanation, but it's likely word came from the White House to kill the bill.

These vendors will sell your phone records to any person for as little as $100. They first came to notice when the liberal blogger at americablog.com anonymously bought the telephone records of Gen. Wesley Clark, just to see if it could be done.

If you lose your rights to privacy in one area, you lose them in all areas.

This is a typical manuever by this administration to keep people fearful, thus they will not fight the injustices that are wrought upon them if they think that they are somehow safe and protected. I think that the following quote is pretty close to home:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done! And I am Caesar."

Look and listen people! Read from sources from abroad, and you may be shocked at what you may discover that has been under our noses and in office for the last 6 years. We are not safe and we never will be until we are willing to view the world through the eyes of the people who are affected every day by the USA policies. This administration did not entirely create the climate that we live in today but they have brought abhorrant damage and have elevated incompetence, cryonism, and nepotism to astounding new levels. Even Bush's supporters from the first and second elections are getting hit with the cold reality that they were sold a 3 legged mutt to take to the New York Dog Show.

Now we have to ask ourselves as a country, "Are we willing to settle for this?" You only get what you settle for in life.

Patty Kachersky

Hey Ben, check out number 3.

Troll:
1. to sing or utter in a full, rolling voice.
2. to sing in the manner of a round or catch.
3. to fish for or in with a moving line, working the line up or down with a rod, as in fishing for pike, or trailing the line behind a slow-moving boat.
4. to move (the line or bait) in doing this.
Random House

And in fact Trawl means "to troll"! (see #3)

—v.i.
1. to fish with a net that drags along the sea bottom to catch the fish living there.
2. to fish with a trawl line.
3. to troll.
Random House

And Bush sucks.

Wise up, Henry.

Nobody cares about "terrorist rights" - whatever you think that might be.

The issue is our collective and individual right as American citizens to be free from unreasonable surveillance the federal government having records of everyone we are all talking to. It is not hyperbole to say that this sort of wholesale peeking at "who is talking to who" is what one would expect from the Gestapo or the KGB (except they did not have super computers to crunch the data...).

There are whole past generations of dead Americans (many of whom gave their lives for their country) who are now rolling over in their graves at this gross intrusion into our private lives by the feds.

The comment regarding catching the leaker is pure genius. Didn't see that, but it's right on.

"The plans were made by members of the Clinton administration, who saw al Qaeda as the biggest threat to our security; Bush's people refused to take this opinion seriously until *after* 9/11. Bush didn't even coin the phrases "War on Terror" or "Homeland Security"; Clinton and his cabinet were the authors."

While I really appreciate your spirit and the heart of your argument - I think you have fallen prey to disinformation. These comments are completely false.

Every comment made regarding a 'liberal' media causes billions to roll over in their graves. Wake the hell up, turn off the damn tv, and go get some fresh air.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

It is quite obvious the President and his men think they are above the law. They keep trying to perpetuate the idea they are fighting terrorism by using whatever means they see fit even if it denies Americans their fundamental rights.

Years from now, when their secrets are fully known, their actions will make Joe McCarthy look like a wimp.

Sadly, there is 31 percent of the public who still trusts this President!

I'm really surprsed by a lot of comments here. It seems to me that many Americans are ignorant to the fact that the governments has been spying on Americans since they were born. If you really believe that you've never been spied on by the American government you really need to wake up.

Henry,
Do you always live life like an ostrich, head in the sand? What's it like to be parroting only what your hear on Faux News? Read the constitution, pal, and maybe you'll learn something.

Notes:

1) If the global war on terror is really considered a 'War', then we are in a 1984 state of perpetual, unending war, because by definition, it can never end. So you cant use the wartime justification. The War on Iraq doesnt seem to really qualify as a war that can threaten our homeland either... so that cant be used either.

2) Isnt it just stunning that a leading republican Senator has to drag in companies to explain what another branch of the government is doing? Thats unbelievable.

3) I thought that "known Al-Quaeda" individuals were being rounded up, and penned up as enemy combatants. So why are we sitting around listening to their phone calls? The term 'suspected Al Qaeda" is more truthful, and, to a paranoid NSA, that may include anyone calling outside the US.

To Daryl, Dave, JD, Ed, JohnG, Chris, and G. Your brown shirts are ready.

To Mike and all other Administration apologists and supposed conservatives...

What happened to the Rule of Law? This current NSA action violates the LAW -- 47 USC 222. "Except as required by law or with the approval of the customer, a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains customer proprietary network information by virtue of its provision of a telecommunications service shall only use, disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable customer proprietary network information in its provision of (A) the telecommunications service from which such information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used in, the provision of such telecommunications service, including the publishing of directories."

"(f) DEFINITIONS.--As used in this section:
(1) CUSTOMER PROPRIETARY NETWORK INFORMATION.--The term ''customer proprietary network information'' means--
(A) information that relates to the quantity, technical configuration, type, destination, and amount of use of a telecommunications service subscribed to by any customer of a telecommunications carrier, and that is made available to the carrier by the customer solely by virtue of the carrier-customer relationship; and
(B) information contained in the bills pertaining to telephoneexchange service or telephone toll service received by a customer of a carrier; except that such term does not include subscriber list information."

To Henry G specifically ...
The Republican Administration ... destroying the American way of life, so Al Qaeda won't have to.

Daryl, you are an idiot.

Where is this going to stop? President Cheney and his puppet George need to stop trying to classify the entire US Government. If they are so convinced that they are right, then have Congress pass laws so they are.

I use a three-prong test here:

First, is this program even necessary? How efficient can it be to mine every single call made in the United States? Isn't that a waste of time, instead of actually pursuing known leads? Once you have a suspect, you can get a warrant to track every single call he's ever made and received. And you can listen to future calls too. If that yields another suspicious person, you can get a warrant to track that person too. Cut the "24" fantasyland stuff out here, terrorist plots take months, if not years to plan. You're never going to stop a terrorist plot the day before it happens by using a massive datamining operation.

Second, is it legal? Orin Kerr, probably the best legal analyst on these issues, says it's not unconstitutional, but it does violate the Pen Register Act, which requires warrants for the government to collect phone company logs like these. I'm no lawyer, but I think he's got a point. Unless you buy the Bush-as-King argument that the War Powers Clause of Article II gives the President the right to everything he wants, then the Pen Register Act appears to be a problem. Expect to hear more about this act soon, like we learned about FISA.

Third, is it moral? We safeguard our Constitutional liberties for a reason. Once you open the door to abusing them, the next guy can go a step further. I thought conservatives would understand that. You know, limited government and all? So I ask all those apologizing for this program: what happens when President Hillary Clinton decides that the anti-abortion movement is really a terrorist movement (because of a handful of clinic bombings), she declares "war" on anti-abortion "terrorists," orders the NSA to monitor the calls of all known evangelical Christians and conservative Catholics who oppose abortion, uses the information to compile detailed profiles on all of these "potential terrorists," and then some "unscrupulous person" in the NSA starts wiretapping the calls of conservative Christians (there is no court to monitor the program, after all). Based on this illegally obtained information, hundreds of conservative Christians are arrested and held without trial as terrorist enemy combatants - the government justifies the program because the "suspects" are "dangerous fanatics", even though there is no evidence that they planned or are about to plan any act of terrorism... Well, you can see where this goes. When the shoe is on the other foot, conservatives will regret supporting this unprecedented expansion of government power.

I am beginning to be skeptical and wary about even posting my opinion here on the Trib . . . How do we know you aren't sharing our email addresses and statements with our Police-State-Emperor G. W. Bush?

I believe history will show that this president wins the "I Violated Personal Rights the Most" award.

Who monitors W? He talks to all kinds of subversives...

Pay attention to the relationship of these 2 things:
The instances when Bush & Co. invoke 9/11, and the direct connection with the reduction of our freedoms.

Bush continues to break the law with breakneck speed, all under the guise of "protecting the nation against terrorism" along with all of the "we are at war" rhetoric. Bush surely is at war, and his war is against the American people. I personally cannot wait until November. By then the Democrats will control the Congress, and I can watch intently as the impeachment investigations and proceedings begin.

I believe Ben Franklin said,

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither"

Remember, everything Hitler did was legal.

Jack claims that a phone number is not personally identifiable informaton.

Huh?

The last time I checked, my phone number was attached to MY name--and no one else.

Jack, would you also claim that your Social Security number is not peronally identifiable information?

Has anyone forgotton about the Fourth Ammendment?

How can any of you think this is a new issue. The only new thing about it is that it has been brought to light. If you think that the government's snooping originated after 9/11, get your head out of the sand. They started snooping long ago, probably before I was born. If they want to know about you, they will before you will ever be aware of it. So, my advise is, get over it. You can't do anything about it. Spend as much energy enjoying life as you do worrying about things that will happen no matter how much we complain.

Has anyone noticed how much division there is in the U.S. today? What ever happened to George W. "I'm a uniter, not a divider" Bush? He might actually be the anti-Christ the religious right is so anxious to start the apocalypse.

Unless the government has some specific reason to think I am violating the law (aka Probable Cause), then what I do is none of their business.

Boy I am sure glad the government is here to close our borders (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/12/border.defense.ap/index.html), monitor our phone calls, and imprison people in unofficial prisons for a indefinte time. The government tells me to feel safe, so I guess I feel safe.

If I click me heels hard and wear red shoes, can I go back in time to about 10 years ago when I still had my personal freedoms.

I'm not comfortable with the intrusions. Maybe more effort could be focused on capturing or eliminating Osama instead of domestic spying on law abiding citizens/political opponents?

Poor Jeb! He wanted to be Big Brother, first, not second!

Karen I

So is there anything a newspaper can report on that doesn't have thr right wingers screaming "liberal bias!" No matter how much the administration lies and uses the constitution as toilet paper the right refuses to listen to any argument that might not be part of the company line. As long as it is prefaced as being "to fight terrorism" they can get away with anything, even when it has absolutely nothing to do with terrorist over seas. It is a pretty scary prospect to give our government carte blanche to do whatever they want because it sets a precedent that is usually only seen in totalitarian regimes. When governments commit potentially illegal acts media is allowed to question it's motives without being blasted for having a bias. If you don't like it that way you are better off living in Cuba or any other communist regime. If you truly believe in democracy and all that this country stands for why in the world would you ever question somebody who is trying to keep these values scared?

I was watching CNN yesterday and something interesting came up... because only phone numbers were being handed over, and the phone companies were doing so voluntarily, without threats, court orders, etc, it is actually a legal undertaking by the NSA. Thus, you should all be complaining to your telephone providers!

Whatever happens... I'm happy I live in Canada :p

Bush lies. Vilely. He lied to get us into Iraq, he lied about his fiscal policies, and he's lying now. The only thing to do that comes near to what he and his toadying, law-ignoring Administration deserves is to impeach him, remove him from office, and jail him for life for treason.

Dear Frank, I listened to the audio of Sessions responding to Senator Durbin. Your punctuation and spacing are incorrect, and could mislead anyone who did not hear the audio. Did you do this intentionally?

Alabama Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions responded to Durbin. “Sen. Durbin said that this was a warrantless wiretapping of millions of Americans. First of all, let me say it’s not a wiretapping. There’s no listening of any conversations here. It’s simply a compilation, apparently, according to the article, of the numbers that every telephone company maintains when somebody makes a call....

When the punctuation is in these places, the meaning is that Sessions is interpreting the article without regard to the facts, which may actually be MORE incriminating with respect to the administration's activities. Your version skews this.

In essence, according to the article this is a compilation, but in real life, it is quite likely the NSA has been listening to actual conversations.

Anytime Newt Gingrich, Joe Scarborough, and Jack Cafferty think something is too conservative, and use lines like "I cannot defend the indefensible" (Newt) and "Arlene Spector is the only thing that seperates us from a full blown dictatorship" (Cafferty), you know things have spun out of control. To the people defending this program: do you really want to be more conservative and more of a party line apologist than Newt Gingrich??

Read Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735. In that case the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment does not apply to the collection of the phone numbers we call. There is no expectation of privacy in the numbers we dial.

Let the Court's own words make the point -- "we doubt that people in general entertain any actual expectation of privacy in the [telephone] numbers they dial." The Court continued, "a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he voluntarily turns over to third parties" -- i.e., the telephone numbers we dial and voluntarily turn over to the phone company to complete the call.

So the program clearly did not violate the Constitution. One could argue whether the program is right and makes sense. But to say it's not constitutional is just nonsense.

To JHC,

I don't know how we can take your idea of what "legal" is when you don't even have a basic grasp of what you are talking about. For example, everytime you turn on the TV your choices certainly are NOT recorded. But you are probably scratching your head in bewilderment because "ABC said that 50 million people watched Grey's Anatomoy last night!" Unless you are one of the ten percent of households that is a "Neilsen Family" then nobody knows what you are watching. If you are so sure that we all have boxes in our TV that records our every move I'm not sure how seriously we can take your interpretation of our nation's laws.

Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I’ll be watching you

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I’ll be watching you

It's more than a song - it's a system of government!

What this thread reveals is that average Americans are very passionate and vocal about issues such as this. What's also revealed is that too many people define themselves first by their political affiliation. Yes, I was heartbroken when Jeb Bush and his Sec'y of State Katherine Harris, along with Sandra Day O'Connor, engineered the theft of the 2000 election. I was dismayed when the '04 selection yielded the same result.

People (Republicans in this case) need to wake up and realize when their government is doing them wrong. To hell with party loyalty! Is this really what Republicans endorse? The erosion of civil liberties. Do you really think it's a good use of limited FBI resources to spy on Quakers?

Quakers!?!?

I defy any of Bush's remaining supporters to state this administration's underlying philosophy. Not the rhetoric. The creed. What has he actually done beside stand in front of banners touting the message of the minute? Mission Accomplished! Strengthening America!

Hey, maybe we can get Jeb in next and he can extend Florida's environmental degradation to the rest of the nation.

That the Bush administration is leveraging the heartache of 9/11 once again for activities that subvert the Constitution is no surprise given their well documented history in these matters. That they first suggested only overseas communications were being tracked should also be no surprise given their pattern of obsfuscation when caught gaming the law of the land. The surprise is that their are still walking, talking, breathing human beings who support these gangsters after years of deceit, incompetence, opportunism, hubris, deficit spending, and endless, willful betrayal of the Constitution.

Memo to Bush holdouts. He isn't a conservative, and this isn't about conservatives vs. liberals. This is about America and Americans. It is about the American Ideal. By any measuring stick absent blind ideology he is a disaster and his is perhaps the first administration in history that is a mortal threat to the Republic.

Look at history people. Look at the Red Scare and McCarthyism of the '50s. Look at Nixon and his crew and Watergate. Look at this administration, at what it is doing in the name of *protecting* us. The steady drip drip of 9/11. Fear makes people justify anything. Anything. Fear makes people say that *I have nothing to hide so why worry?*. Fear makes some willing to beat and torture a *suspect* for information. Fear makes (some of us) willing to give up the very things that make us great and free. Fear is the bread and butter of the Far Right Media.

Worried about another terroist attack? Let US know who you call. Let US know what you read. Let US know what you post on a blog. Let US know what you think about the Administration, saving the environment, lobbiests, corporate power and sleaziness, peace groups, immigrants, gays, human rights, animal rights. The information is safe with US. You can trust US. Only the bad guys need to worry. We are competent; we have it together; not to worry.

The biggest thing we have to fear is the willingness of those in power to scare large numbers of citizens into giving up their power and freedom.

I'm suprised no one has picked on the fact that this information was PAID for. Part of the reason the phone companies were willing to let the governent have this info is because they were compensated for their efforts, as opposed to being ordered.

How much did they make?

Is it right for a highly indebted government to pay multimillion dollar corporations to get information it could gain through legal channels for a minute fraction of the cost?

Orwell got it wrong. It wasn't 1984. It was 2006.

The only real freedom in this world is your right to privacy. It’s as simple as that. Once you give up your privacy rights, what’s next? Humans have the innate obligation to keep pushing the envelope, be it the right thing to do or be it the wrong thing to do. What are you going to do when your basic freedom of privacy is finally abolished and the envelope gets pushed further and further. By allowing this ridiculous monster to slowly eating away at your freedoms, once your light finally comes on, and you realize how far down the wrong path you have allowed this sort of action to progress. Guess what ... Its to late, by that time any protest against the monster that you are spoon feeding will be illegal and you, the American public will have no advocate. Why? Slowly over time you have surrendered you basic fundamental rights, to this same monster. At your point of epiphany you are doomed to face the consequence of your actions or inactions. At your point of epiphany it is a losing battle and you are full circle, back to a pre-parlament era in which your only recourse is to run away and start anew. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! The real interests of the American people are being ignored, discounted and discouraged. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! War is big business and big business are obligated to use there leverage to suit the wants and needs of a few, not nesseccarily the needs of the masses or even there very own workers. REMEMBER. Once fired, even the worse heads of big businesses get there golden parachute while most others get nothing or an even worse safaris... WAKE UP PEOPLE!! The outlook for this country’s children and the quality of life of said children is pointing toward a regression in societies freedoms. WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS?..ANSWER = to move towards the completely monitored society..I am not a BIG BROTHER type.. But you have to read these signs and wonder is that BIG BROTHER scenario even partially true...
That’s no way to live.
Silence is consent.
You will be sorry for your inactions!!
Your children will be sorry for your inactions!!
Where does your loyalty lye?

Of all the conservative dribble on the message board, the most annoying is the "Try going to (instert communist country here) and seeing how your freedom is there." So let's get this logic straight; We live in a country that has, among many liberties, the freedom to speech. And because we have this freedom we should never ever use it? I think it is you, conservative party liner, that should move to these communist countries because you seem to have no problem lining up to be spoon fed by your government and throwing mud at those who stand up for their beliefs. If you believe that we shouldn't be standing up for our rights why exactly do you support our "democratization" efforts overseas? You obviously don't even believe in a democracy here.

Jon posts: "So is there anything a newspaper can report on that doesn't have thr right wingers screaming "liberal bias!" No matter how much the administration lies and uses the constitution as toilet paper the right refuses to listen..."

Boy I hate to open a whole other can of worms, but there is one part of the Constitution that the right apparently does hold sacred: the Second Amendment. Isn't it interesting that Bush & Co. can take a sledgehammer to the Fourth Amendment (not to mention the First and Eighth Amendments) and right wingers will tie themselves in knots defending the adminstration, but when anyone even tries to bring up that "well-regulated militia" part of the Second Amendment, the right wingers are decrying the destruction of the Constitution and the erosion of our rights. So the founding fathers were serious when they put that stuff in about the right to bear arms, but they were only joking about the protection from unreasonable searches, the right to free speech, assembly, petition of the government, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment?

The defenders of this President and his endless lying amaze me. The whole "I'd do anything to protect my country from terrorism" attitude is so twisted it makes me ill. If all of our freedoms erode to the point where our Constitution is nothing more than elegant words lost to history what will be left to protect? It's not as if the collecting of telephone data is the first salvo in the war against our liberty, far from it, it's only the latest. When will we all wake up and take our country back?

Here is the thing no one has addressed:
When anyone (criminals, terrorists, you, me) can buy a disposable cell phone with preprogrammed minutes, use it once or twice, then throw it out, tracking calls becomes mostly useless for the stated purpose - to catch terrorists.

Surely the NSA knows that, yet they have spent enormous amounts of money and effort invading the privacy of everyone in the US. So just what IS the purpose if all of law enforcement knows that the bad guys are too savvy to be caught that way?

Diposable cell phones aren't the half it.

The adversary long ago realized that electronic communications could be intercepted and/or subjected to social-network analysis. That's why the Madrid bombers used draft letters written on a single e-mail account.

They would sign onto the account from different locations and leave drafts that remained on a server and were never sent as an e-mail over the Internet. And that was in Spain!

Not only is spying on the telephone records of virtually every U.S. household and citizen without reasonable cause outrageously intrusive, it's also pointless as far as penetrating any serious terrorist network is concerned.

So, one has to wonder, why is the Bush administration really so keen on knowing who you're talking to?

"JD" writes: I'm sure those still alive who actually suffered under Hitler's regieme will identify with your current (imagined) suffering.

I know several still alive who actually suffered under Hitler's regime. They range anywhere from disgust to outrage at what the president is doing to us. If you, sir, are so sure of what people will identify with, you might actually try asking them. My friends remind YOU of "Never Again!" and suggest you think about what that means.

just a thought...
Do we really think we'd have anything other than a shift towards fascism with a Bush in office?
C'mon people, their wealth was a product of NAZI WAR PROFITS.
Now who's your sugar daddy?

Yesterday on this thread, I theorized that the USA Today article implied that the phone companies had been paid for our phone records because the article mentions a "contract." Today I noticed that the lead article on this latest assault on our privacy mentions that the NSA paid a fee for our information. That's right folks, through our tax dollars, we paid to have our privacy violated. It's kind of like paying a male stripper to perform for you and getting raped.

If any conservative can possibly justify this use of taxpayer dollars, go ahead and try. If everyone here who is so gung ho about the NSA getting their phone records would simply contact their phone service and ask them to send a copy of their phone records to the NSA, we could save an awful lot of money. As for me, I'm calling SBC/AT&T and Cingular and asking for a rebate given that they profitted with my information in violation of their privacy agreement. I can't wait for the class action lawsuits on this one.

I see the left is still whining about a legal security program. Good thing the majority of Americans understand the situation a little better and are willing to allow the government to do its job in preventing terrorists from freely infiltrating the country so they can conduct suicide missions on any street corner in America simply because the left wants to play political games with our national security. Don't be naive and believe for a second it couldn't happen. See Israel, Spain, London, France and so forth. Despite what you may feel for George W. Bush, his mission for keeping America safe is what has kept further attacks since 9/11 from happening on U.S. soil, and if you can't admit that to yourself, you need to seriously set aside your blind loyalty to the leftist agenda and put country first for a change.

Hey PatK,
I really wonder what rock you crawled out from under. Blind ideology is YOUR thing, not anyone on the left. That is what makes a Liberal a Liberal; not following a foolish leader.
I think you would have a point, but if this were the case, and Bush thwarted ANY event that threatened the USA, it would be front page news on every single newspaper, magazine and tv network in this country. There have been times when your CNN's and FOXNEWS' have sensationalized events and made us think that we spoiled a plan, but never have any of these been authentic. Just sensational without substance.
I ask you to simply name ONE event that Bush thwarted?
Please, and then I'll shut my trap.
............................
Mr Bush and his administration that you love so much have screwed us Americans at every chance. They IGNORED intel on 9/11 that could have PREVENTED the day of shame, fought the investigation into how 9/11 happened, as well as the 9/11 Commission, Totally screwed New Orleans and the Gulf Cost, and how about that $300 Billion War based on sensational intel?

I think it makes sense. You are probably one of those who have been awarded with the tax breaks. He bought you off, just like all of the cronies that still support him.

I know I am safe when I think back at how quickly GWB jumped into action as both the towers were attacked.
SEVEN MINUTES OF SITTING STILL... SEVEN MINUTES!

That is chilling & this is who YOU trust, PatK?

Killbill,

How about at least 3 and as many as 8 and counting?

1. West Coast airliner plot:

In 2002 the United States disrupted a plot to use shoe bombs to hijack a commercial airliner to attack the tallest building in Los Angeles. The plot was "set in motion" by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the September 11 attacks.

"Rather than use Arab hijackers, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed sought out young men from Southeast Asia whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion," Bush said.

2. East Coast airliner plot:

In mid-2003 the United States and a partner disrupted a plot to use hijacked commercial airplanes to attack targets on the East Coast of the United States.

3. The Jose Padilla plot:

In May 2002 the United States disrupted a plot that involved blowing up apartment buildings in the United States. One of the alleged plotters, Jose Padilla, allegedly discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" inside the United States. Bush has designated him an "enemy combatant."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/09/whitehouse.plots/index.html.

Feb. 9, 2006 — According to the White House, the United States and its partners have disrupted at least 10 serious al Qaeda plots since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks — including three plots to attack inside the United States.

In addition, at least five more al Qaeda efforts to case targets in the United States or have operatives infiltrate the country have been stopped.

Among the plots the Bush administration says have been thwarted are:

The West Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2002, the United States disrupted a plot to attack targets on the West Coast using hijacked airplanes. The plotters included at least one major operational planner involved in planning the events of Sept. 11.

The East Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2003, the United States and a partner disrupted a plot to attack targets on the East Coast using hijacked commercial airplanes.

The Jose Padilla Plot: In May 2002, the United States disrupted a plot that involved blowing up domestic apartment buildings. One of the alleged plotters, Jose Padilla, also allegedly discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" in the United States.

Casings and Infiltrations

The U.S. Government and Tourist Sites Tasking: In 2003 and 2004, an individual was tasked by al Qaeda to case important U.S. government and tourist targets within the United States.

The Gas Station Tasking: In approximately 2003, an individual was tasked to collect targeting information on U.S. gas stations and their support mechanisms on behalf of a senior al Qaeda planner.

Iyman Faris and New York's Brooklyn Bridge: In 2003, and in conjunction with a partner nation, the U.S. government arrested and prosecuted Iyman Faris, who was accused of exploring the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge in New York. Faris ultimately pleaded guilty to providing material support to al Qaeda and is now in a federal correctional institution.

2001 Tasking: In 2001, al Qaeda sent an individual to facilitate post-Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. U.S. law enforcement authorities arrested the individual.

2003 Tasking: In 2003, an individual was tasked by an al Qaeda leader to conduct reconnaissance on populated areas in the United States.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=1599331&page=1

I guess you missed a few of those newspaper, magazine and network stories. But somehow instead of giving credit where credit is due, I expect nothing less but excuses on your part. Not surprising.

You then proceed to blame Bush for every intel debacle to come out of the CIA, yet hypocritically turn around and fault him for making every attempt at keeping Americans safe. Again, no surprise. And I notice you failed to bring up the incompetent failures of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin, you know, the first responders, in keeping their constituents safe, providing ready resources and keeping the president informed of the facts. Yep, no surprise. What's that you were saying about liberals and foolish leaders?

Walter, that's the best you can do? So what about the 8th minute? And by the way, what was Bush supposed to do in those 7 minutes after the towers were attacked? Go hold up the buildings and personally rescue the victims? Despite liberals' beliefs that their government is their god, I hate to disappoint you -- it's not. But hey, regardless, no attacks since 9/11, right?