Maybe you should do your own research instead of relying on readers. That's what real journalists do. The web and blogs have made you guys incredibly lazy.

Kill as many of those #$%& as possible and go down fighting.

I doubt they're telling the troops anything useful, or even true. The story in this paper today mentioned that one of these young men recently left a voice-message at home that said he was "defending his country." This administration has brain-washed our brave kids to believe that the US was and is under attack by Iraqis in order to get them to continue to take wholly unnecessary risks. The adminstration force-feeds the troops so much propaganda that a vast majority believes Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks, even though the President has admitted publicly that this was not true (not that he doesn't slip in the "hint" that it might be true whenever he can).

All you can count on from the current leadership in this country is lies, to the civilian electorate and to the troops conscripted into this mindless exercise in ego-flexing.

Speaking as someone who has served two tours in Iraq, the expectation is that the warfighter will do everything necessary and proper within the rules of engagement to close with, then repel or destroy the hostile force, and if captured resist as appropriate and possible.

There is not a warfighter or civilian working in the theater that has not seen the videos of the beheadings which have been displayed in the past. There is an implicit understanding that capture equates death, therefore it would serve one better to continue to fight until it is no longer possible than become an asset to be used in a propaganda campaign for the enemy.

The following is the "Code of Conduct" that is issued to all American service personnel:

Article I: I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Article II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

Article III: If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Article V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service, number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

Article VI: I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

I will forgo the historical background that led to the creation of this document, I believe all veterans post Korean War are familiar with it.

In summation - It is better to die fighting than to suffer whatever treatment the enemy can devise.

S/F

I feel so horrible for these young men and their families. You can blame our own hypocracy in how we treat "prisoners" in Guantanmo and other detention centers for violence of this nature. America no longer leads by example and will continue to enrage young Middle Eastern men who want nothing more than to retaliate any way they can. We have a lot to worry about now, but I shudder to think of the thousands or maybe tens of thousands of boys/young men who will turn into terrorists because of Bush's rush to war. Bush will be long retired and enjoying a wealthy man's later years while this country continues to grapple with the hatred his actions are engendering around the world (and while veterans of Iraq try to ovecome post-traumatic stress disorders, war injuries, etc.). I travel around the world frequently and have never seen this much animosity toward Americans. It saddens me that I can no longer claim to be an American with the pride I once did.

good bless them

It sounds like the murdering scum that killed these brave soldiers somehow got the drop on them.

If someone is able to enact the element of surprise, there aren't any good options.

I hope they went fast...

The time is long overdue to bring our troops home and let the Iraqis figure out their own problems.

Gabe, If you are not proud the get the HELL out of this country!

I don't know what they do now, but my father told me in WWII they would hand out pills to soldiers to hang onto in the event of capture. They could take these pills to induce their own deaths to avoid the horror of dying by torture.

Perhaps it isn't such a bad idea to bring these back...

Maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place, but now that we are, we must completely finish what we started for obvious reasons. Keep the liberal news media out of Gitmo and prevent them from broadcasting our intended plans of action on the battlefield. Make no apologies for undocumented, but yet publicized "mistreatment" of the enemy. Get all these uncivilized whackos and make them pay the price.

Better to die fighting than live as an instrument of degradation for the enemy.

USA-

According the GOP, only cowards "cut and run". I'll be staying here fighting for the soul of this great country and its place in the world. It's the people who don't think for themselves, get overzealous with blind patriotism, and keep this corrupt, evil administration in power that should get the hell out of this country.

To Gabe:

You can blame our own hypocracy in how we treat "prisoners" in Guantanmo and other detention centers for violence of this nature.

If we were torturing our prisoners there would none left at GITMO. Solitary Confinement is a long way awar from being skinned alive.

What scares me the most is people like you that have NO idea how ferocious this enemy is. It is not your fault entirely because our national media picks and choses what they wish to report. For example, and not to take from this blog. How many head lines do you read about human trafficers raping illegal immigrants in the thousands along our southern border? If it is close to zero it is because you have chosen to hear only what you believe to be the truth about some of the aliens on the border. Check out Hidalgo & Webb county.

It is easy to criticise the US Military, because they are the target for most derogatory remarks around the world, but as another poster suggested, I would do a little more research than assuming waht you are being fed to be true.

Hey, USA (the one that left the comment not the country) how's the weather in 1967?

Hey blogger USA - Wake up. Gabe is on track here. I am sure, like me, that he loves his country. Proud of it since the '04 election? - NO. I, too, travel abroad often and have seen our leadership and 'world example' as laughed at and despised by the world. Does it matter? ... not so much now, but in the long term there will be economic and social consequences that we will face as anti-US alliances continue to be formed. Just look at the nuts in Venezuela, Iran, and N. Korea. There platforms and momentum are largely based on anti-America sentiment. They will be here soon after GWB is gone. Thanks, Georgey. As most spoon-fed Americans and GOP do not believe/understand, is that the GWB's redneck diplomacy and his enacted policy has and will create terrorists faster than we can kill them off. God bless the two fallen boys and all of our troops.

Along with the Code of Conduct, men and women in the U.S. Armed Forces are provided training in the rules of engagement and Suvival Evasion Resistance and Escape training. These men, along with all the other U.S. fighting men and women who have laid their lives down in the name of freedom in battles and conflicts across the globe, left this earth bravely.

For the readers who never bothered to wear a uniform, before you take too much time to comment, and think you are supporting the troops by just having a goofy little yellow sticker on your SUV, stop, and think how you can help those who are still there. Think of their struggling families who are in grave need of real support, like being able to pay their electric bills.

Put down the Starbucks, and pick up the phone, call your local VA or VFW, see how you can help those who came back but are in real need of real support.

Too bad that Gabe used this sad occasion to engage in partisan politics. Rest assured that the brutes who tortured and murdered Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker loathe President Bush and (for example) Senator Durbin equally---and would torture and behead them both and with equal zeal if given the chance. I have plenty of criticisms of the Bush Administration (many of which are doubtless the same as many of Gabe's) But for you, Gabe, or anyone to try to pin this on President Bush is both sad and stupid. You conveniently forget that Bin Laden and Co. were planning and executing attacks against the U.S. and the rest of the "infidel" West all during the Clinton years. This visceral hatred of the U.S. has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, but with much larger issues and forces. May the Coalition military hunt down and capture all responsible.

To Gabe:

Evil empire..give me a break. You and the rest of the liberals join the guys going AWOL up in Canada. Love it or leave it!

We could easily end the insurgency by pulling our allied troops and civilian employees back to secure locations and beginning the wholesale nuclear annihilation of Iraq, minus the necessary petroleum infrastructure. The peoples of Iran, North Korea, Russia, China and others will certainly get the message...and there won't be any more resistance in Iraq.

It's easy to spout advice about going down fighting and the warrior credo but events unfold so fast and furious in combat that you often are not in control of them . When you are sitting in your HUMV one minute and the next bullets are flying through air from every diection , glass breaking , explosions from rocket fire you could be set upon before you knew what hit you . Having been in combat (and wounded) real life is not like the movies .

I’m guessing they were mortally wounded, before being taken prisoner, to the point where they could not defend themselves. Every single soldier knows what will most likely happen if they are taken prisoner. You’re on the frontlines so you’re already jacked-up, you just got ambushed, you’re buddy just got shot to death right in front of you, and what are you going to do?

You’re going to unload everything you have into your attackers until you stop them, you run out of ammo, you can’t physically attack anymore, or you’re dead. That’s it. Your survival instincts and training kick-in and there is no surrendering.

Another vivid demonstration that you are not dealing with an enemy that fights according to the recognized rules of war - yet our critics, including those in this country, demand that we treat our captives with more than kid gloves, call sleep deprivation "torture" and would have us fund a Club Med vacation for them if they could do so. These young men died believing in their mission - the rules of engagement our ignorant political class has imposed upon the troops doing the actual fighting cause more harm than good. Solution? Do what President Putin did to the Chechen terrorists who blew up the theatre two years ago. Bury every dead terrorist in the skin of a pig - use their religion against them - under Islam their souls will be damned forever - no paradise, no dark-eyed maidens, just oblivion. That will take the stiffening out of the vast majority of that crowd - and tell anyone in the international community who then complains about "human rights" to, as the British say, "bugger off"!

And there was no anti American feelings before the war?? What about the embassy bombing, the WTC bombing before 9/11, and 9/11 just to name a few. These radical muslims will hate us no matter what we do. That anti-America sentiment was always there and always will be. Because we live in the greatest country in the world.
I served in the USMC in Operation Restore Hope so I know what it means to fight for this country. I have travled around the world as well. There are some people out there that will never like us...DEAL WITH IT. This is the world that we live in.

George Bush and our soldiers don't make me ashamed to be an American. Ideologues like Gabe and USA do.

Another comment for Gabe:

Up until a couple of days ago soldier from Kilo Co. 3rd Battalion 5th Marines are entertaining similar standards of what you view as torture. These men have not yet been charged with a crime, but are being investigated for Murder in Iraq.

"Under maximum custody, the suspects were forced to wear handcuffs and leg-irons whenever they left their cells – both in and outside the brig."

"Each of the men are in an 8-foot by 9-foot cells, alone, in a section called “special quarters,” where they receive their meals. Each gets one hour a day to spend at an enclosed outdoor courtyard, where they could exercise if they want, and they can meet with their attorneys in a small private room and with family members in a visitors’ room during weekend and holiday visiting hours."

We treat our own with the same standard as we treat GITMO detainee's, minus family and attorney visits.

They are the enemy.

Gabe and Gizmo

First and foremost, if the insurgents treated these two brave young men as we treat our prisoners, this would not have been a front page news story - our greatest fear would have been that they were sleep-deprived. They would have had their wounds treated by medical professionals, they would have been fed (adequately, if a bit boring, and with respect for any religous requirements of their diet), and they would be safe in a cell that would be no worse than uncomfortable. Yeah, they might have torn a Bible in front of them but I suspect our soldiers can handle that.

A statement such as "You can blame our own hypocracy in how we treat "prisoners" in Guantanmo and other detention centers for violence of this nature." is so dense with illogic, so contrary to reality that one cannot help but question the mental health of someone who writes it or defends it.

There can be no justification for this type barbarous act but to make such an absurd comparison skips right by laughable and over into frightening. People who believe this should not be trusted with sharp objects. If you think the treatment at Guantanamo justifies what they did to those young men, I am pretty sure you would stab someone over a lane change violation.

Finally, if this is the type of rationale some nations use for their unhappiness with the USA, let me assure you that I bask in their disapproval. The only point in Gizmo's post worth refuting is his comments re: the nuts in Iran and N Korea - hate to break it to you but the nuts there have been behaving the same way for decades. George Bush and current policies have nothing to do with it - they are just plain nuts.

RRD

Oh yeah, whatever bad, if anything at all still no proof, is justification to butcher these two soldiers. Maybe in liberal nutjob land but not in real world.

It is rhetoric like this from Gabe and his defenders which permanently seperates their positions from the realm of the real world.

I guess all of the bombings and murders of Americans over the bast 20 years should also be blamed on Bush.

Give me a break. Get some common sense or withold judgement on something you are incapable of formulating an opinion on....

Paragraph 9 in the above article states "It is clear that [to captured American soldiers]... there is no prisoner of war status with an enemy who abides by the Geneva Convention protections." It appears that the author made a mistake here. In reality, an enemy "who abides by the Geneva Convention" is an enemy who takes prisoners. In contrast, an enemy who tortures and kills prisoners is an enemy who REFUSES to abide by the Geneval Convention protections.

To Gabe.. an all the other blame America first types, and the US is the source of all that's wrong in the world, from Indians to Slavery to Hiroshima to Iraq, the terms of war have always been determined by the powerful and the victors of those conflicts in ideology or territory. The West is the enemy of radical Islam, with a global conflict between Sunni and Shia, with even radical and moderate factions killing each other over things as trivial as a man wearing shorts to play tennis. Do you really think any of us knows the depths or breadth of our enemys' plans to destroy us? The public couldn't take it. This is a global conflict that may go on for decades until these extremists can be wiped off the globe. You don't care about Iraqis or our soldiers, you only care that America is too powerful in your opinion. Like the cold war and Vietnam were a battle over ideology, so is Iraq and eventually Iran. I think its clear you would prefer socialism or some other leftist structure who trade freedom for supposed equality.

Gabe, you really believe what happen at Gitmo sways the minds of Middle Eastern men. Give me a break. Why don't you go visit your local Muslim mosque. Maybe he can sway your mind.
What kind of torture do you think the U.S., Germany and Japan used on prisoners during World War II? It's why it's called war.

I read all the way through until Jun 20, 2006 3:32:38 PM. So much BS to slog through, but I'm vet like David (who was one of the few sane commentators) so I managed to get through it. It's NOT like the movies as he says. I know, I was also combat wounded.

I feel sorry for those three guys, my comrades.

Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. Not the fault of those three boys, though. May the diety they believe in take care of them.

Apparently it is ok for Bush and Rove to play partisian politics with Iraq but it isn't ok to use the occassion of two brutually murdered soldiers to point out the horrors of war. It is apparently also ok to fly into Iraq for a massive PR campaign to get the public back on your side and not ok to show dead soldiers returning in caskets. This "enemy" everyone is speaking of has always been there and always will be. What this administration has done in since 9/11 is make everything much much worse.

Remember that the two places affected most by 9/11 - D.C. and New York - and places most at risk like L.A. and Chicago voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry. Unfortunately it is Red State America that has been worked into a frenzy and would rather we carry out this vague war on terror than think about why it is that people want to destroy us.

Last time I checked no one wanted to blow up Omaha or Mobile, Alabama. But boy have people in places like this been duped into thinking Al Queda is coming to get them. And the rest of us continue to suffer...

RRD, sleep deprived? You're forgetting the prisoners that we "outsource" to other countries that do allow torture. Sorry, but that blood is on our hands.

This incident is terrible, but all the whining about the "rules of war" being broken is stupid because technically we've been breaking them as well (though obviously not as heinously).

The US needs to lead by example, so the world can see we clearly have the moral highground. We're muddying the waters, currently.

I don't see how anyone can possibly disagree.

As for that guy calling himself "USA", I have the feeling he'd be saying the same gibberish if Hitler came back to life and was running the country. Patriotism is more about protecting ideals than a chunk of land. Some people just don't get it.

J-

I suppose you have been fed the truth, then?

Please, fill us all in.

I'm 57 years old, a child of the 60's. I love the USA and support our troops all the way. I would never want to live anywhere else. I have not always agreed with some of the political policies of our various presidents over the last 40 years BUT I am reminded of the quote,"My country right or wrong, but it is my country." The bleeding heart liberals need to spend sometime in a country with no free speech, no Bill of Rights, no economic future. Only then would they realize the USA is the only place to be, flaws and all, and must be defended at all costs.

I was absolutely disgusted with our lack of diplomacy of photographing the dead corpse of their leader. His desecrated body was displayed like a trophy. It is against the Geneva & Hague Conventions. The President is in fact to blame. He is the Commander in Chief. Assassinating these people and then parading their head on a stick for all the world to see only begets like treatment. This has not in any way been a war that follows the Laws of Land Warfare, a military regulation, like the Code of Conduct that we, as American service men & women are expected to know and follow. Our President needs to set a better example of humanity and diplomacy.

God Bless America
...and may we, as Americans, be worthy of those blessings.

YOU ALL SOUND LIKE LITTLE GIRLS...

LET THEM REST IN PEACE...

SEMPER FI....DO OR DIE....

LIFE GOES ON...

REPUBLICANS & DEMOCRATS GO BACK TO YOUR COZY LIVES...AND SHUT UP...

Cathy-

Don't worry - by the time this administration is done, we will be well on our way to no free speech, no Bill of Rights and no economic future. The worst part about Bush stealing the 2000 election isn't Iraq - it's the gradual erosion of our rights as Americans. Totalitarian governments don't happen overnight, but don't think for a second that it can't happen here.

So neither side is abiding by the geneva convention in Iraq

I think Rep. John Murtha speaks for the "Silent Majority" in this country. Of course, we love and support our troops. They are our parents and children, our spouses and lovers. However, it's the current administration that is delivering them to their deaths. Our troops arrive in Iraq and deplane onto quicksand. We cannot "win" this war. The language of winning and losing is absurd and inaccurate. At the end of the day, we will have to learn how to co-exist with radical Islamic fundamentalists. We cannot kill them all - they're here to stay.

Gabe

"EU Chief: No Proof Of Secret Prisons" - CBS News Website, May 2, 2006

“Swiss Sen. Dick Marty said there was no tangible proof so far of the existence of clandestine centers in Romania or Poland as alleged by the New York-based Human Rights Watch.” - BBC News Website , January 24, 2006

In short, Gabe, I cannot forget that which does not exist.

Try though you might, there is no way you can equate the USA and its policies to the barbarity of the insurgents. You really need to get some help with these delusions.

"That anti-America sentiment was always there and always will be. Because we live in the greatest country in the world."
Yes, in fact you've got it stamped on the bills, God bless you hates everybody else, 'cause God is racist and nationalist (have you ever heard of a nationalist God?? I know only yours. Allah thinks it differently. Sure Buddha too. Not to talk about Jesus Christ)
And God wants you to nuclearize Iraq, wiping his people out, infidel to "democracy" (what does this word mean??) but save the oil wells, and the oil infrastructure as a whole, because your God is thirsty of Oil, His sacred Nectar. Make a vow to your God, turn off tv, read newspaper, americans and not, study geography, so people outside US will stop making a fun of you not being able to tell where is Iraq or Vietnam or Afghanistan on a map.

Soldiers know that being killed in battle, or being captured and held under miserable conditions is a normal risk of war.

Extreme torture to death are not acceptable, and we should not stand by and let it happen. We should also enlist the Iraqi people to help stop it.

8 small nuclear weapons to be placed in eight Iraqi cities. If this should happen again, provide 72 hours notice to city nearest the incident and then level it. No one has to die since they have plenty of time to leave, but they'll either stop engaging in such torture, or there will plenty of smooth glassly parking spots over there...

it won't take long before the insurgents are told by the populace to just go elsewhere.

-JC

Liberal Patriot: You write, "Apparently it is ok for Bush and Rove to play partisian politics with Iraq but it isn't ok to use the occassion of two brutually murdered soldiers to point out the horrors of war." The objection (at least on my part) is to playing partisan politics with the deaths of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, not showing the horrors of war. I think many folks (including and perhaps especially vets) support showing war in all its ugliness---helps sensitize people and makes us less likely to beat the war drums in the future.

And your assertion, "Last time I checked no one wanted to blow up Omaha or Mobile, Alabama. But boy have people in places like this been duped into thinking Al Queda is coming to get them." You sound like my friend in Toronto who until very recently used to crow that his city was safe because al Qaeda and other Islamic extremists had no motivation to attack Canada.

Like it or not, we're really all in this together...

Maybe you should do your own research instead of relying on readers. That's what real journalists do. The web and blogs have made you guys incredibly lazy.
Posted by: rick | Jun 20, 2006 1:17:58 PM

I don't normally chime in on these things but, felt like I should. *I know I'll be attacked, but who cares. This is my only post.*

Sometimes in journalism it's best to get the readers to chime in simply b/c you don't know everything. No matter how much research is done, you will never get it completely correct.

I think asking the readers who have been in the military on what to do in this situation is a good idea. Had I not served, I may have done the same thing.

Rather than jumping on him for asking help, give him, if you can, the answers he seeks. Having been removed from the military for 12 years, I'd ask.

Journalism is not just about writing a story; it's about writing a great story and reporting as much truth as you can. *key words - as much as you can.* Sometimes...the truth will never be fully revealed.

Going back to the original discussion.
As a veteran myself I think the answer is clear. Regardless of what the military leadership is telling it's troops (which is probably the same it's been since WWII), as a soldier facing capture- I would rather die trying to escape. Especially based on the terrorist M.O.
Note: Terrorist not insurgents.

RRD and others-

Where did I say that these were equal? My point is that we have done more in the past four years to feed islamic fundamentalist hatred than in the decades before combined. Of course there have always been threats, but the Bush Administration has done an amazing job of giving the enemy the ammunition it needs to breed a new generation of terrorists.

The only thing I'm delusional about is the idea that Americans are being able to think for themselves and question the actions of their government. I've tried my hardest not to get upset at the average American over support of Bush and this "war". But comments like yours and the others on here remind me why this is all very scary. Get the general public to blindly support you and get away with everything. Keep them from getting a good education and a chance at a decent life in America through your inane domestic policies and you will have a populace that will shrug its shoulders in response to important issues and enthusiastically support military action because it just feels so good to wave that flag and be a part of the big "winning" team.

Thankfully I had great education (including school-taught sex education) in high school and a free ride to college during the Clinton years. I will always be grateful for the social programs (like affirmative action and pell grants) that helped me get to where I'm at. And I worry that the GOP has created a generation of mindless drones through its current education and social policies that will keep it in power in perpetuity.

As far as equating our detainee policies and what happened to these poor soldiers - scream that all you want. Attack the person that dissents or dares say anything "unpatriotic" (it's what Republicans do best). Keep being a part of the war machine. I hope you are still able to sleep at night.

To USA,
If you don't like something in your country, you don't have to leave it. You can try to change it. Grow up. Stop using playground epithets to spew at those who disagree with you.

To RRD,
Try telling the Iraqi civilians about delusions. See what they think.

The Iraqis did not start a war with us, they did not attack us. The USA invaded their country on the falsehoods that WMDs were present in Iraq. All of the reasons the WH administration gave for a preemptive strike against Iraq have been proven to be untrue. And, our preemptive attack has resulted in insurgents who want to kill Coalition troops. What do we expect? Many in the US wanted to kill whoever was responsible for the 9/11 attacks against innocent people in the US. Why should the innocent people in Iraq have a different reaction?

All people want to live. We should abhor those that make that impossible - be they terrorists attacking the US, insurgents in Iraq, or invaders attacking Iraq.

It's time that all people in the US examine their own consciences and see what responsibility they have for the killing of our military in Iraq and the killing of innocent people in Iraq. Jumping on the bandwagon and screaming for revenge - -whether you are an Iraqi or an American - only leads to senseless bloodshed. It does not make the world a safer place.

ASD,
You wrote:
REPUBLICANS & DEMOCRATS GO BACK TO YOUR COZY LIVES...AND SHUT UP..

You disgust me. Is thsi what you say to anyone who has a differnt opinion than you. You slimeball, you creep, you unpatriotic American. Please read the Bill of Rights, study American history, THEN practice what our legall foundation preaches.

If you don't believe in the premises behind American freedoms, then perhaps you should find yourself a fascist country that practices what you are preaching.
You creepo.

Gabe

My apologies – I scrolled down a bit too quickly and attributed Frosty’s comments to you.

Frosty – get some help.

RRD

To all the vicarious low brow thinking warriors who have nothing at stake but are first to yell, kill them all as a solution to a problem, you need to evolve. It is clear that George the Animal Bush lied to make being in Iraq necessary. I’m amazed at politicians who have nothing at stake but there already soiled credibility, scream we are not going to cut and run as if there life is at jeopardy. Its time to realize that having troops in Iraq is the main problem for U.S. and Iraq problems will continue no matter how long or how many people get killed. It’s time to no longer equate support for are troops by giving them more bullets and bombs to fight with. Support the troops by bringing the troops home to there families. Violence will breed more violence chaos will rain order will not exist under those circumstances. So evolve earthlings and bring the troops home. Sorry I got of the main question.

There is blood on George Bush's hands, no doubt.

1) No evidence of link between Al Qaeda and Saddam

2) Bin Laden still running free since Bush took his time going after the criminal enterprise (Al Qaeda) in the days following 911.

3) The war is draining our treasury and our morale.

If we're going to conduct an imperial war, go for broke. Don't ask the troops to conduct the war in half-measures. If we're going to act like the Roman Empire, allow the troops to act like the Legions and not like sitting ducks.

Brother Marine I was Army what we would do is not what these kids can.The Iraqi's will cut them up for sport.To many problems over there. The only way is to go down fighting.I hate to say that but its true with Rummy in charge these kids have to fight for their life's. I have never seen a man cause so many problems with his ways.Plus with these kids not having the tools to fight with everything is breaking down.Thanks to Congress given up our industrial might that how we won wars

The enemy isn't the insurgent, its the Mullahs and the Islamic cult they adhere to. Islam is a cult, pure and simple.

Yusufiyah and its surrounding area has time and time again proven to be harboring these murderers.

It is time to send a proportionate and logical message. Lets "rescue" the citizens of Yusufiyah,
relocate them to Kurdish areas (paybacks a bitch) and bulldoze the entire village and its surroundings. I mean flat and fill in the wells and streams so it cant be reinhabited.

Like cockroaches, the Al-Qaeda will scurry about and be easier to kill. They remind me of the alien bugs in the movie Independence Day. They seem to have the same goals........

It will require the same solution.

They're the world's human cockroaches.

Blind allegiance to a failed leadership is not patriotism.

This latest horrific incident is sadly another reminder of how badly this administration has failed our country, our world.

I weep for my country, and for the families and loved ones of those in Iraq and Afghanistan, those yet living and those already dead.

Peace.

War is hell.
No quarter given or expected.
World War II had same atrocies in the Pacific and I am sure Germany.
My question is why were these three guys left behind? I am afraid we have inexperience field commanders, getting their ticket punched at the price of soldiers. I always thougth the airborne motto was to take as many with you before you died! Did these guy surrender and if so why? These guys were airborne what gives.
I served 26 years in the military never been in combat but makes me wonder why they gave up or were overwhelmed??
As far as you left wing %$#*&@!, November will show where the American heart is.........

God Bless the military and all families who suffer loss in Iraq.

Cadillac Jim

Inquiring as to what commanders in Iraq are telling their soldiers to do in event of capture is, in my opinion, an OPSEC violation and anybody who has knowledge of our soldiers tactics to survive capture should keep that information to themselves.

I can't believe that you would actually ask people to send you this information to post on a public forum. Soldiers lives are at stake, and the public has no need to know what measures are being taken for their safety if they are captured. If you want to know what commanders are instructing the troops to do in such situations, I suggest you contact your local recruiter and ruck up. Then, you can find out firsthand what you should do in event of capture by insurgents who have no intention of adhering to the Geneva Convention.

Boy oh boy, it sounds like the democracy project is over in Iraq.

Now it's just nuke 'em for revenge while avoiding the oil? Brilliant. That'll work. Sounds like a real 'end time' solution, Solution.

For all of you on the left who apparently never read a newspaper before Operation Iraqi Freedom, there were a multitude of reasons why we ended the regime of Saddam Hussein. These reasons include: human rights violations, release and treatment of Kuwaiti prisoners of war, financial support for suicide bombings, attempts to secure long range missiles, violations of the U.N. Oil-for-Food Program, Iraq's non-compliance with about 18 U.N. resolutions, firing on and targeting UN authorized air patrols, a 1993 assassination attempt on a former US President, violations of the no-fly zones, ties to al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations (including the Palestinian Arab Liberation Front), and WMD.

Only one of these has been proven incorrect (WMD) and if you somehow managed to miss all the rest of it, then that is your own fault. It was all right there to be seen and it is still on the public record. You are about 2 clicks away from the archives of a major newspaper – look a few things up before you make absurd claims about the cause of this war and the way it has been handled. If you actually read what the administration said, you would know that the no one lied to you. You just didn’t listen or just didn’t get it.

Getting back to the original point of this thread – the horrific treatment of two of our soldiers – and getting back to Gabe in particular, you did not say the USA’s treatment of prisoners was equal to this terrible act. No, you inferred that our actions were worse. When you wrote “blame our own hypocracy in how we treat "prisoners" in Guantanmo and other detention centers for violence of this nature” you tried to take the responsibility from those who tortured and mutilated those young men and place it elsewhere. The clear inference is that murders were justified and therefore our treatment was as bad as or worse than the murders.

The fact that you do not understand the implications of your words refutes your claim of a good education (as does your spelling of the word “hypocracy” - I normally do not consider spelling to be fair game on a blog but you opened the door with your claims about your education). I may be drifting too far into the realm of the personal but you are a classic example of the declining state of public education in this country. You have not been taught critical thinking skills and it shows in your posts. It is too late for the GOP to create an education system that spits out mindless drones, the Democrats have already done it and your blind allegiance to the party that spoon-fed you your so-called education is the proof. Well, goodnight Gabe – I am going to sleep very well tonight.

RRD

If your a G.I. Your Side is for your head... Once you run out of ammo for your M-4, M-16, or .50 Cal it's over. Now on the other hand if your a reporter you toss down your camera and hope for the best and hope the est. media runs your face all over (FOX/CNN) the tube

Comments are not posted immediately. We review them first in an effort to remove foul language, commercial messages, irrelevancies and unfair attacks. Thank you for your patience.
.........................................
Who are you, "WE" ?? A Big Brother?
No, you are The Cencorship! In a country of free speech? No, there is no free speech any more.
There is "1984" by George Orwell.

Q:What should G.I.s do if facing capture (death)?
A:The same thing* anyone would do.

*: Actually, there's probably over 6,500,000,000 correct answers to this question. We're all going to die. What would you do?

No offence, but can you Americans count? And do you really mean it when you say all human life is of equal value?
Number of innocent people killed in the 9/11 atrocity: 3000.
Number of innocent people killed in the Iraq war:
100,000 and counting.

This is George Bush's chicken's coming home to roost on these poor soldiers. And America has not abided by the Geneva convention either. We are not just talking about sleep deprivation here. Prisoners have
been BEATEN TO DEATH in U.S. custody. As George Bush
reaps, so will the young people of your country sow.

I am writing this E-mail from just South of Baghdad not very far from were the two Army soldiers were tortured and killed. The reason I decided to jump into this conversation is because of what I have seen written here in this Blog. One of the things that really caought my eye was something written by Desert Rat "At the end of the day, we will have to learn how to co-exist with radical Islamic fundamentalists. We cannot kill them all - they're here to stay." What you don't understand is that Radical Islam cannot be reasoned with it cannot be talked to and made friends with and most certainly we cannot co-exist with them because if they are followers of radical Islam than they believe it is there duty to kill all "Infidels" (that is you and me and everybody else in the world who is not a Muslim)I am not just pulling this out of my ass either, I have been here 6 times in 5 years (including Afghanistan)so I have learned alot about Radiacl Islam, and thier are various verses in the Quran about killing infidels which will back up my claim. This is not a new phenomenom either the Barbary Pirates kidnapped and sold into slavery and murdered more than 1 million Christians between the y/o 1500 and 1800 because they said the Quran gave them the right to do so becaue they were infidals and I don't think President Bush's policies had anything to do with that. Its time for Americans to wake up and realize that it doesn't matter if you are a Republican or a Democrat these animals over here would enjoy "slaughtering" all of us. Thay don't care about your Ideology they only care that we are not Muslims and we are the great Satan. We need to stick together and show a united front because I know for a fact that they watch what is going on in the states and are encouraged when there is such division in our country about should we stay or go. We have to stay and finish what we stated. You may not agree for the reasons we went to war but we are there and we have to finish the job or we will only encourage the spread of Radical Islam throughout the rest of the world. Most Muslims are good people (again something I have seen first hand) it is just these Radical ones that hijack the religion for there own goals and make all of Islam look like blood thirsty savages. Oh, and to Far maybe you should do a little research into your religion becasue your God is the same god as Christianity and Judiasm, I know that is not what you want to hear but all 3 religions worship the God of Abraham we just go about it in different ways. But you were right about us being the greatest country on earth though so I can cut you some slack:)

Good to see some open mind guys liek gabe.

Belive me most of you have been brainwashed.

They just make you belive Islam and muslims are Eviles and you most kill them. truth is We humen as you . we have family and you too we love our country and our children so you do too.

They just make your children go to war and die for "Oil"

very simple.

Some of the reasons for entering the war were based on false information.. and probably not so false as there was plenty of time to shift the WMDS to Syria.. but I think we have already seen a tremendous benefit from deposing Saddam. We do not have to suffer a nuclear arms race in the middle east. If saddam was still in power and iran was producing nuke weapons so would they be. Then we would have 2 nuke powers to deal with who would have no problem wiping Isreal of the map or equiping terrorists with nuke material for smaller ops in western countries. As it stands, iran is somewhat contained. (and no, iran is not trying to become a nuke power becuase we are next to her borders)

bottom line: The reason for getting involved is/was complicated.. the reason for staying is complicated..cost for staying is very high. BUt we need to finish of the insurgents. We cannot show weakness in the face of this enemy. And if Americans spoke in a united voice against this enemy it would help the war end sooner.

Gabe:

I would like to present a counter point to one of your glaring arguements: not all people who disagree with you are "Republicans...blindly supporting... the war machine..." It is wrong that others have questioned your patriotism, you are expressing freedom, something all good Americans should do. This country will only be the greatest it can be when all voices are expressed and treated with equal merit and respect. So that my comments may have merit in your eyes, my credentials colleged educated[political science] by a free ride from Uncle Sam. It is true that the chest thumping international policy of the current adminstration has spurred the Fundamentalist terroist (do not associate Islam w/ terrorism) against the U.S., but the fundamentalist have been staging the Jihad against the West since the beloved Clinton Adminstration ("America's Secret War"). The second point I would like to make is that today's Soldier's are a volunteer force, choosing to risk the ultimate sacrifice in defense of the ideals that make our nation great, whether or not they argue/disagree with the current adminstration. God Bless all those fighting for Freedom,

Our Military men and women should fight to the last breath. The men and women who are kidnapped should fight to the death. I would rather see a video of an American fighting to his death then crying pleading and begging for his/her life. If caught by these people you will most likely die, so go down fighting. Don’t ever give them anything but courage bravery and patriotism to show on T.V. Make that the last thing your family sees you fighting for you life and for your country. The last thing the Terrorist need to see is Americans looking weak and unresolved, But sadly (all the have to do is read these comments) they can just tune in to any American news media and get an ear full of exactly what they want to hear. FEAR, WEAKNESS, BICKERING, FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES. We are in this War, it is not President Bush’s fault, it’s every Americans fault, we are alive and they hate us. President and our elected Officials made a decision to go to War, and looking back maybe that was to soon, or we had bad information. But right now it doesn’t matter. Fighting will not fix it, arguing will not make it better. Until we as Americans can understand that for every man or woman who has been killed in Iraq if our fault, and their blood is on OUR hands, we will continue to loose this war. America is dying, instead of taking the blame for our actions, we pass the buck, blaming Bush or the GOP, or who ever. We as Americans Voted George Bush into office, even if you didn’t vote for him he is your President, you will get another chance to Vote and get a new one, but for now, Support him, don’t slander him. Because when you do you slander the backbone of this country, and you help the Terrorist Win. They are winning, While I read this thread I thought of the saying, “United we Stand, Divided we Fall” Well people we are falling fast, no amount of Victory in Iraq, Iran, South Korea, or Afghanistan can repair the damage that we are doing to ourselves. We are in Iraq, we have to finish what we are doing, Americans are not quitters, or liars. We hold to our promises to the best we can. We are not perfect, but we need to try.

Support America, by Supporting YOUR President. You may not like him or his Policies, but We as a Country voted him in. And he deserves all of our respect. HE has the hardest job in the world, I don’t want it, I can even keep my sock drawer organized let alone the best country in the world. Cut him some slack, he is doing what he thinks is best. In 2 years he will be gone, and we will have another President, and he will do things different, maybe better, maybe worst.

I may not agree with everything President Bush has every done, but many years from now, when more information is made available to the American people he will be regarded as one of our countries greatest presidents, Up there with, Abe Lincoln, George Washington, and many others. God Bless President Bush, may he carry the mantle of President with strength, and humility. Bless the Troops who so bravely die for what their country has asked them to do. Bless the Terrorists that their hearts will be softened so we can solve this with out fighting. Bless America that we can Unite again and defeat hatred and fear. Bless the world that life will have value.

Lets Unite, or the Terrorists have already Won.

To say that we are treating our PRISONERS OF WAR any way like the insurgents treat the U.S. servicemembers who are POW's is insane! When at Gitmo has anyone heard ANYTHING about beheadings????And while a few stupid, bored, and misguided individuals may have humiliated some POW's, that in no way, shape or form even compares to the TORTURE that Al Queda inflicts on the U.S. POW'S. My own husband is a Marine, and he has ALWAYS said that he would not be captured alive, he refuses to give them the opportunity to torture, use him, and eventually behead him as some sort of propaganda that they think will "scare" the U.S. troops out of Iraq. Unfortunately, these insurgents don't KNOW Marines.... these cases of torture and beheadings only helps to set their resolve in routing out these maniacs. IF they didn't think they had a purpose BEFORE the kidnappings, etc, the Marines do now. Kinda like "Remember the Alamo", and "Remember Pearl Harbor" and "Remember 9-11". These types of events which are CLEARLY not condones by the Geneva Convention only serves to make the Marines that much stronger, dedicated, and determined to get ALL the terrorist. Remember, Marines are willing to die for a country and a cause. They have long before become stoic in their resolve to do their duty. The insurgents only gave them MORE reason to stay and fight.....
As others have said, atrocities were committed by the Japanese and the Germans.... This isn't new for the Marines. It will probably happen again. However, our country STILL does not have to initiate the draft, they meet their quota for people wanting to be a Marine. My own husband is getting ready to retire after 20 years service.
Our Marines realize that their lives, while precious, are just part of the big picture and will just help their fellow servicemembers to keep fighting ahead....
And for those KNOCKING our administration, etc.... If you don't like this country and how it is run, try going to one of these terrorist countries... North Korea comes to mind right off hand. There, you wouldn't have the freedoms, and frankly personal wealth (compared to the N. Koreans). Our servicemembers die every day to insure your right to speak out, protest, boycott, etc anything you don't like. You don't see those types of things happening very often at these countries with terrorists....

Remember "UNITED STAND. DIVIDED WE FALL"? Our enemies (those who hate us SIMPLY because of our way of life) need look no further than this forum... they can sit back and watch us destroy ourselves, they need do nothing further. Wake up America. Unite America. Stop giving "them" what they want.

It seems to me that before one demands that other Americans leave the country, one should first make a concerted effort to master this nation's grammar and spelling.

While I strongly support America's long history of diversity in thought and belief, I cannot support such broad diversity when it comes to spelling.

Or are the myriad mistakes a deliberate attempt to convey the author's muddled and illogical thinking?

America: Spellcheck or Leave It!

Why do the liberals stray from the topic so? The question was about what our troops should do in case of capture. How have they been instructed. Regardless of instructions, I'm sure that they were scared, in pain, and doing what their instincts led them to do. We weren't there in their last moments...to hear their breath, feel their agonies, know how fast their hearts were beating, or see their memories of their parents, children, wives, girlfriends, friends, and knowing those were the last memories they'd ever have of them. It doesn't matter anymore why we went there, what our administration has done or is doing...it's already done. Placing blame does not make it better. Going there didn't make hostilities in the ME better or even worse. It's always been bad, always will be. Posters wish to make political statements, but it really just boils down to a crude and cruel moment for those guys who died. Nobody REALLY plays by all the rules in war...war is ugly, it's pain, it's dirty. Granted, the US does adhere a heck of a lot more than the terrorists have done...hence...that is why they are terrorists. They work on a basis of terror...terrorizing through horrid methods. They did not engage with us on the basis of "war" but of terrorizing, therefore they do not adhere to the rules of war, therefore you have two completely different sets of people and purposes. As for GITMO...well...they torture themselves too...look at their starving themselves. And we are force feeding them. We're not pulling nails, or cutting, or whatnot. I don't necessarily call sleep deprivation and insulting torture...I call it annoyance until patience breaks and maybe they cry. That's what my toddler does to me. These terrorists aka insurgents are physically torturing people, making them scream in pain, and then cutting their heads off. That's a bleak contrast. Either way, you all should stick to the question and stop attacking each other. Although...I do agree with the veterans here. But my opinion does not make the war situation better in the big scheme of things. I only pray that the hostilities end soon. I wish that people didn't have to fight and try to hurt others. But alas, it is human nature. It is what it is.

The American public is to blame for electing G.W.Bush who caused this disaster.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 as everyone knows by know.
G.W.Bush is no better then Adolf Hitler who also started a war blaming Poland for attacking Germany when in truth it was German soldiers in polish uniforms attacking a German radio station just across the border in Germany.
People like them feel a call to power and even believe that God told them to start a holy war to save the race.
G.W.Bush could not care less how many more people have to die and how many more parents have to weep for their sons.
As long as you Americans keep voting for monsters like G.W.Bush you deserve to be led by the nose and have your freedom take away.
Be careful what you say on the telephone because George is recording all your conversations and you morons let it happen.

reply to Tim1979

Can you tell me the connection between bin Laden
and the invasion of Iraq ?
There has been no shred of evidence that Iraq was involved with 9/11
We know however that 17 of the terrorists involved in 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia.
We had therofore every reason to invade
Saudi Arabia.
You, like many like minded, just spout the crap that the White House dishes out.

reply to Mike | Jun 21, 2006 8:25:16 AM

Lets send this naive brain midget to Iraq to die for G.W.Bush.
I have never ran across anybody as brainwashed as this poor person.
G.W.Bush is a mass murderer who will stop at nothing in his mad crab for power and glory.
If you knew anything about Adolf Hitler you would recognize the parallels between them and you would be scared that we have allowed a sick person like this fundamentalist Bush to become our president.

Reinold Hofmann: To answer your question, I know of absolutely no "connection between bin Laden
and the invasion of Iraq." I never said there was. The point I originally made was that visceral hatred of the U.S. by Islamic fanatics is not something that sprang up after the invasion of Iraq---that it also existed all during the Clinton years (and before) and that it is something that can't be pinned on Republicans or Democrats, that much larger issues and forces are involved. Regarding your assertion that I, "like many like minded, just spout the crap that the White House dishes out," I'd say that you know next to nothing about about my mind; and if you knew my politics and my frequent criticisms of the Bush Administration on any number of policy issues (including Iraq), you'd think twice about implying that I'm a White House apologist. As I've said before, the sooner we accept that fact that we're all in this together and stop name calling (and that applies to both Left and Right), the sooner we'll be able to think clearly and act effectively in our common interest. Perhaps you could lead by example?

I think we should return to the days when kings led their own armies into battle - that would quickly solve the questions of whether Bush really believes the war was necessary and whether or not we should "stay the course."

As for the question of what soldiers should do when faced with capture, it's not an answerable question. Maybe in an ideal world, but in reality, none of us knows what we would do when faced with the ultimate moment of terror. We all like to think that we'd act honorably and bravely and bring honor to our nation. But the reality is that most of us would do something more like curl up in a fetal position, wet our pants, and beg for mercy. Life, and the will to cling to it, is a very powerful thing - much more powerful than abstract concepts like dignity and honor. Rather than judging soldiers by what they do or don't do in such dire circumstances, those of us in our comfy offices and homes should judge them by their heroic willingness to put themselves in such circumstances to begin with.

Reinold Hoffmann I am sorry that all you can do is spew more hatred about OUR President. If you cannot see with out your color lenses and blinders then good luck. I hope things work out for you. But keep in mind you are doing exaclty what the Terrorist what you to do. Keep it up and you can have a front row seat to the distruction of America.

I will not argue points, but I will argue What America means to me. Remember United State's We are the UNITED STATES.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the American Political Left

I have been posting frequently on the Swamp lately making the case for support of the current administration and for conservative politics in general. I have quoted or cited many sources and I believe my posts have been credible and somewhat persuasive.

However, I must bow down to a superior approach. If anything has proven that reasonable people should flee the political left with great haste, it would have to be the last three posts by "Reinold Hofmann."

I admit that there are times when I read or hear statements from the nuts on the political right (for example, Pat Robertson's periodic eruptions)and ask myself "do I really want to be on the same side as these guys?" Still, the bizarre, paranoid, delusional element of the left is even more shockingly widespread and pervasive.

Have the "Reinold Hofmanns" of the world not yet figured out that if George Bush really were listening in on your phone calls and as dictatorial as Hitler then you would already be in a concentration camp?

Have the more normal members of the liberal camp not come to see that a frightenly large segment of their colleagues think like "RH"? Doesn't that make you want to rethink your position - to ask a few more questions and better educate yourself on how things came to be as they are in Iraq?

RRD

Oh RRD-

Nice cheap shot about one word out of what I consider to be a well-written, thought-out response written in less than 5 minutes.

You prove my point about Republicans having to resort to attacking people who disagree with them rather than debating issues. I understand it's much easier.

I'm glad you sleep well at night, because I stay up worrying about the future of this country when it is populated with people like you.

Mr. Rant, Name, Gabe and the rest of you ignorant nobodies:

It is just not the terrorists we have to worry about, but also you looney lefties. You looney lefties who believe Bush is the greatest terrorist in the world. You looney lefties who are too incapable to understand that the IRAQI people are glad Hussein is gone, that the IRAQI people WANT us there, that the IRAQI people understand they NEED us there. The hate and rampant stupidity you folks exhibit is even scarier than any act a looney Islamonut can inflict.

You looney lefties ignore the birth of democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. But like babies, you looney lefties want to abort the birth, cut and run, let the terrorists win in Iraq and anywhere else. You looney lefties are so ignorant you believe Gitmo or Abu Grhaib makes the looney Islamonuts kill and behead people. You looney lefties believe we are to blame for 9/11. We are to blame for the bombings in Bali. We are to blame for the Madrid bombings. We are to blame for the London bombings.

Act after terrorist act and you still don't get it!!! Really, how does it feel to be so damn stupid or incapable of understanding ANYTHING?!?!?!

As much as the looney terrorists, you looney lefties are just as much an enemy to rational mankind.

John D.,

Do the Iraqi people REALLY want us there or is that with neocon chickenhawk extraordinaire Sean Hannity told you?

Take a look at this survey from last fall. 82% of the Iraqi people were strongly against U.S. presence there. That w