Bush declassifying intelligence

Let me guess....when you find out who it is you'll fire him...right?

I'm wholly confident that, once Bush's hacks have edited out every word that might be unsupportive of his Iraq debacle, the NIE report will be released.

how convenient.... why weren't we provided with this info earlier if this was completed in April? Why is it that we're always catching up to this gov't, why are we always trying to figure out what they're doing and what they're hiding?

Just another attempt by this administration to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. And so far they've done a good job.

Selective leaks of information for political gain? I'm shocked! shocked! Poor George - he doesn't like to get his hands dirty with all this political stuff. He's only out to protect us from the evil doers of evil deeds... because they're really evil.

Hey Lefties...Everything is blowing up in your face.
Go back to the drawing board...Nov.elections are getting close.Valerie Plame was a bust,so were the hearings on "BIG OIL"and B.J. Clinton almost attacked a reporter that asked a valid question.
Hmmmm...let's see....try the story on Bush being a.w.o.l. from the national guard again.
Paulo

"The White House has ordered Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte to release a summary of the report, once sensitive information about methods or sources is redacted. Bush voiced confidence today that a more complete picture of the NIE will support his contention that the U.S. has made significant gains against terrorism."

Bush and company will only declassify the information that supports his point of view. I do not believe a word that comes from Bush's mouth. He has speant the past 6 years lying and distorting the truth and now he expects to take his word as the truth. FORGET IT.

YOU GO PRESIDENT BUSH--ITS ABOUT TIME WE AS AMERICANS TAKE OFF THE GLOVES AND FIGHT BACK AT THE ONES WHO WOULD RATHER DESTROY THIS COUNTRY FOR THERE ON POLITICAL GAINS AND SELF INTEREST INSTEAD OF SUPPORTING OUR TROOPS WHO ARE OUT THERE FIGHTING AND DIEING FOR US, AGAIN YOU GO PRESIDENT BUSH.!!!!!!!!

This is great news!!!

George W. Bush thinks it's ok for his swiftboat liar squad to leak information about a CIA Agent,whom they have a POLITICAL axe to grind with,yet now,.........that information about how his phoney baloney Iraq war is helping fuel terrorists all over the world against us............he says that leaking is a terrible thing....IT'S YOUR OWN PEOPLE LEAKING ON YOU DUBYA.....MAYBE THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR FAILED POLICY'S DUBYA!!!!

George W.........you are Reaping what Karl Rove has Sowed for you,....time to quit crying in your wine spritzer,and time to start eating some well deserved CROW....Mr.Bush.

Tell it like it is George!!

In view of the outing of CIA agent Plame, it's astounding that Bush would have the gall to say the NIE information was leaked for political reasons.

You know...

We weren't in Iraq when thousands of innocent people were being killed-

We weren't in Iraq when the rest of the world had such a terrible opinion of our country and leadership-

We weren't in Iraq when American soldiers were serving their 3rd and 4th terms of duty, despite an overwhelming feeling of Anti-War througout the nation...

Oh wait.

Just musing-- Did more of fewer Nazis join the party when the US decided to join WWII? I am not sure, but my guess is more, until they were defeated.

Did more or fewer kamikazi pilots and Japanese warriors join the Japanese military when between our joining the war and our ending it. Again, I am not an historian, but my guess is 'more.'

Doesn't taking a war to the enemy more often than not cause more defenders of, and fighters for, the enemy to surface, fight us, get killed and go away after they lose?

Or is there some statistical studies that in every other war in history, there was a finite number of 'the enemy' at the beginning and the only direction that the enemy count ever went was down?

Thanks to all the Swamp Kids, Mark S. Frank J. for supporting the expansion of the front page to 20 most recent posts.

Thanks.

"“You know, what's interesting about the NIE, it was an intelligence report done last April,’’ Bush told reporters at the White House. “As I understand, the conclusions… the evidence on the conclusions reached was -- stopped being gathered on February -- in the end of February. And here we are, coming down the stretch of an election campaign, and it's on the front page of your newspaper. Isn't that interesting? Somebody's taken it upon themselves to leak classified information for political purposes.’’""

Bush seems to be saying:

"What!!! Somebody has learned Karl Rove's tactics so well, they are using them against ME!!"

Looks like someone else has become expert at using tactics that were supposed to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the RNC.

*************

" “Because of our successes against the leadership of al Qaeda, the enemy is becoming more diffuse and independent. I'm not surprised the enemy is exploiting the situation in Iraq and using it as a propaganda tool to try to recruit more people to their murderous ways."

What again!! It's good that they have become more diffuse and independent??

Nothing succeeds like failure with this guy.

Bush characterizes the Iraq War as "a coma" in history, Cheney say's thatknowing what he now knows "he would do it all over again"

This is my defination of "insanity"

They want to try to stop a young democracy from developing. Just like the CIA does all over the world.

Good. Now it won't be so easy for some partisan leaker to just give out the parts that benefit his side without showing reporters and the public the whole story.

George Bush is an idiot!!!

Thought you should read

I wanted to first agree and show support for Presidant Bush. It seems so simple that we forget the past 20 years of terrorism acts against the US and other countries to the point that we need to be reminded that they will use whatever means and whoever will align with them to carry out the acts that they seem to live by. The last paragraph here shows a perfect example of all they have done and all they have accomplished without our presence in their country! They will continue to come after us regardless. Every American should remember that all the past presidents have had to deal with them(middle east) in some way or another.
Thank you.

Before everyone goes nuts Bush can not give all Intell,it would put real people in harms way. But 16 Intell Org. say Iraq has made us less safe. After all the half truths that Bush has said. I believe these org's. Attacks across the world are up because of Iraq. Terrorist ranks have doubled. We are not safe here at home because this do nothing Congress has not done what the 9/11 Commission told them to do. Rehashing history before you come in office tells me you telling half truths again. Focus on what you have done and tell America the Truth. Political Games when our troops are in harms way is pure bull Rove should know that. Oh thats right he never served a day how would he know.

Where can you get the NIE report now that it's declassified?

i just want to know:
if they would "do it all over again" knowing what they know now, what justification could they possibly use? all of the "reasons" they used the first time have been exposed as lies or blown up in their faces.

Roy Lasris,
First of all you cannot just make up statistics to atttempt prove a point. Second, the reason for the war...after WMD could not be found... which the administration finally settled on was that it would REDUCE the threat to the US and democracy would inspire terrorists to give up. The consensus of the NIC seems to dispute that.

Since it's in such short supply, it's probably not a good idea for W to be giving out intelligence.

;-)

Fellow Brie Eaters,

I am recommending we put together a reading list for Paulo so he can become a little more informed and stop embarrassing himself. My first recommendation is "My Pet Goat". I heard it's hard to put down. Then maybe onto his hero's biography: "Curious George".

Any other suggestions?

Sourced from http://www.thiscantbehappening.net. Makes a rather interesting - if blindingly obvious - counter argument to the NIE that we will never see anyway.

Monday, September 25, 2006

Bush War III: Going to War to Save His Hide
War talk is in the air again, and because of the looming November election, it has to be taken extra seriously.

The latest to warn about a Bush War III is former Democratic senator and one-time presidential aspirant Gary Hart, long an expert on national security issues, who says that targeting drones and special forces targeting specialists are already operating over and inside Iran, sizing up and locating as many as 400 targets for U.S. cruise missiles and bombers. This is in anticipation of an aerial strike which my own research suggests could come as early as late October (See "War Signals" in The Nation online.

Of course, this could all be bluster--a Karl Rove-designed strategy to get the public all worked up they way they used to do with color-coded terror alerts until that strategy wore out its effectiveness through overuse. But the actual sending of Special Forces units into harm's way in Iran, and the preparation of Navy battle groups for deployment to the Iran Theater, make it more probable that an actual attack is in the offing. Word that regular military units are being prepared for third tours to the region, that the administration is changing the guidelines to make possible longer call-ups of National Guard units for longer and more frequent overseas tours of active duty, and that units in Iraq are being given stop-loss orders to delay their return home also suggest something major is brewing. Otherwise logic would lead to the expectation that the administration would be announcing a reduction in troop levels in Iraq before Election Day.

Ordinarily one would say that the real sign of an imminent attack would be a convening of Congress to consider a use of force authorization, or perhaps an attempt in the United Nations to win endorsement for an attack from the UN Security Council, but clearly this is not happening. And for good reason. Bush would never succeed in winning Security Council approval for a military action against Iran, particularly after embarrassing and insulting the council members by the massive lying that he did the last time he sought such a vote--for an attack on Iraq--in 2003. Nor would he likely be given the go-ahead by Congress this time around, with all of the House and a third of the Senate facing re-election on November 7 by an electorate that has grown weary of war, angry at a half trillion dollars wasted, and sick at heart about the thousands of flag-draped coffins and broken GIs returning home, with nothing to show for it all but two dysfunctional, war-torn former countries in the Middle East.

The problem is that Bush, who has trashed the Constitution to the point that it is now little more than a historical artifact, doesn't think he needs approval from the UN or even from the Congress to embark on his most dangerous, bloody and immoral war yet.

According to this confirmed White House criminal (he has been found guilty by the US Supreme Court of violating the US War Crimes Statutes and by a Federal District Court of violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the Fourth Amendment), he has the power as "commander in chief in time of war" to act in violation of both Constitution and law, as he sees fit.

The "war" in question is the so-called "War on Terror." The title Commander in Chief derives from the wording of Article II of the Constitution, in which the Founding Fathers said that a president would simultaneously be the top general of the military. Bush claims, with the backing of his "mob attorney," Alberto Gonzales, the head of what used to be known quaintly as the Justice Department, that when Congress, in the wake of the 9-11 attacks in 2001, voted an Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Al Qaeda--a measure that was meant to give the go-ahead for an attack on Osama Bin Laden and his Taliban hosts in Afghanistan--it was also giving him the power to act as Commander-in-Chief in a war on terror that would have no end and that would extend anywhere and everywhere in the world and within the borders of the U.S.

He claims, in other words, that the October 2001 Congressional AUMF effectively made him a generalissimo, a dictator, for as long as there were terrorists foreign or domestic trying to harm Americans or American interests.

We need only note how Bush, in his address at the UN General Assembly last week, was careful to describe the leaders of Iran as "supporters of terror." It was a carefully chosen construct which meant he is asserting his right to attack them as part of that phony "war" on terror, based upon the long-outdated and grossly misrepresented 2001 AUMF.

Unless the American people and their ostensible representatives in Congress act quickly to make it clear that the 2001 AUMF does not apply to an attack on Iran, and that it did not make the president a dictator with the power to make war at will, I’m betting that we'll be at war with Iran before Election Day.

Let's be clear. This has nothing to do with a threat to America. Even by the most generous of interpretations of administration-hyped "evidence" about Iran's alleged nuclear weapons development efforts, Iran could not have a nuclear weapon for four years or more (with some estimates saying ten to 15 years). That's plenty of time to mount a successful diplomatic campaign to block it.

No, incredibly this is all about an election. To put the matter bluntly, we have a president who is willing to put tens of thousands of American soldiers' lives at risk, and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iranian lives at risk, simply to avoid having the Congress fall into the hands of the Democratic Party.

Why would Bush be willing to do such a thing, against the advice of his generals, against the wishes of the American people, and against all logic and decency?

Clearly he is afraid--afraid that a Democratic Congress will finally start calling him to account for his accumulated crimes against the nation and the American People. That's why he is desperately trying to get the Republican-led Congress--while it still can--to pass legislation retroactively exonerating him and his subordinates for their criminal violations of law and Constitution. That's why he is racing around the country raising money for candidates--even including liberal Republicans whose positions he abhors.

At this point, all this president cares about is saving his own sorry hide.

It's a disheartening spectacle, but hardly surprising for a man who worked so hard and shamelessly to protect that same pampered hide during the Vietnam War by joining the National Guard and then checking a box saying he would not be available for overseas assignment.

He must not be allowed to get away with this ultimate crime of a war for personal gain.

I agree--the NIE needs to be released so that everyone can read it and make up their own mind. Unfortunately, it sounds like they don't plan to actually release a redacted version of the document, but instead, a carefully-worded summary (that will, of course, support the president's idiotic opinion). I hope I'm wrong. If the NIE supports this war, then I'm all for it--let's reinstate the draft, send another 100,000 troops, and get 'er done. But if the NIE supports the notion that taking a stick to hornets' nest in an attempt to force them to stop stinging is an idiotic approach, then I hope the president will fire Rumsfeld and immediately tender his own resignation. Oh, and Cheney's too. Let's see the report.

Brian,

I think Paulo should read "Hell In A Very Small Place" by Bernard B. Fall. Since he's so generous with placing folks in the line of fire, he should get an idea of what being placed in an impossible situation, to perform an impossible task, and the consequences of command and leadership failure is all about.

But then it deals with sacrifice and bravery, ideas that's foreign to these born-again nouvu-Republicans and may be beyond his comprehension.

S.C report is on the Congress sites. heres some hightlights
1. The report from NIE concludes that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has worsened the rerrorist threat.
2- The report was done by 16 US intelligence agencies all experts in the field
3 The Report shows the Pesident's Iraq strategy is making it hatder for us to fight and win the war on terrorism
4- the report cities the Iraqi was is a inspiration for new Islamic extremist networks not in Iraq
5- Iraq is a training ground for terrorist who leave Iraq to strike in other countries.
6- The Report is in sharp with what we are being told by the President and Rumsfeld
7- The Report show America is not safer as we been told by the Republican Congress but it shows we are not safe.
8- The report show the enemy is not living under constant pressure that we been told. But have grown stronger.
9-- Here the part of the report that scares Bush it said we are not winning the war on terror and not even breaking even.
Thats the part of the report released. Now some of the report can not be released to that it would put people at risk. That will be their talking points you don't know the hole report. But its very clear now we again have been lied to. John D I do believe this country is in great danger if we do not change course. That is how I feel. As a vet we see things people don't see. In my opinion we are boged down in Iraq when the ball is now in Iran and other counties in the Mid East some that we even call friends. That just my feelings here

MarkF:

It's not going to be 100K. More like 300-500K, per Gen. E. Shinseki.

And I have no problem with a draft. When administered fairly, with NO DEFERMENTS, I'm all for it. Let's get 'er done. Let American's best and brightest, boys AND girls, answer the call.

Yes, let's see the report.

I think OHCD is right. I think we will be at war with Iran sometime prior to the November election (My guess is two weeks). I base my guess on a couple of things: 1) the administration's prior record; 2) the fact that Rove has already promised an "October Surprise" without hinting at what that surprise might be.

I'll stick my neck out another few inches to predict that there isn't going to be an election in November. That's because BushCo thugs know that if an honest Congress starts asking serious questions, BushCo will end their lives in prison.

To Mr. All Caps no Brains (who is cheering on Bush),

As one of the "troops," let me assure we would rather not be dieing for a failed stupid political decision.

I joined the Navy to see the world and learn about other cultures. I did. After one year over there, I know Arab culture is not democratic. Americans are dying for Iraqi democracy? Let the Iraqis wallow in a hell of their own making. We cannot make them free.

Support our troops, get them out of Iraq.

As for Afganistan, lets kill the terrorists. We should have stuck with that mission from the start. There we have a job to do.

Anyone else think it's interesting that the main Wall Street Journal opinion piece this morning was entitled "Declassify the Terrorism NIE," and was basically telling George Bush to declassify it so that nobody could twist and leak it for political purposes? I guess George read the paper this morning and thought it was a good idea.

In any case, I too think it's a good idea. I'm sick of politicians playing games with the information that the American public receives. Like Bill Clinton complaining about the Conservatives that berated him for being too obsessed with Osama Bin Ladin, and now claim that he wasn't hard enough. He basically made that up--the one time Bill authorized major military action against Bin Ladin he was praised--not criticized--by conservatives. Twisting history and current facts in order to incite political support just makes me sick. It violates everything we should be standing for.

The point of the democratic system is not to get yourself elected no matter the cost, rather it is to elect people who are right for the job.

Pay attention people! You are all wasting your time! Blog comments - it's the new Television - let's all waste our time complaining in a transient comments section of an insignificant articles pigeon hole.

Everyone here seems so energetic about the issue! I look forward to the day when all of you stop wasting time responding to the media's egging on and start doing things like, oh, I don't know, running for office!

You don't like it, don't vote - that's the least you can do! Run! Run for office, get out of that high paying job and take something lower to help your country for a few year, then return to what you were doing. Put your money where your mouths are!

"I think Paulo should read "Hell In A Very Small Place" by Bernard B. Fall. Since he's so generous with placing folks in the line of fire, he should get an idea of what being placed in an impossible situation, to perform an impossible task, and the consequences of command and leadership failure is all about."

Jack,
I would also recommend 'Street Without Joy" by Fall, and
'A Bright Shinning Lie', by Sheehan. (No not Cindy)
Wait till he finds out abut Ike, the Dulles bros. and Diem.

"Good. Now it won't be so easy for some partisan leaker to just give out the parts that benefit his side without showing reporters and the public the whole story."

A partisan leaker in the Bush administration? Think about that one and soon you'll realize how absurd it is. Bush has no liberals or democrats in his White House.

But we won't ever hear the entire story on this one because Bush will just give out the parts that benefit his side without showing reporters and the public the whole story.

Boy, a lot of leftist propaganda with little to no attribution or basis in fact on here today.
Ho-hum.

This report reminds me of the Dan Rather thing.
Doubt the declassified report will settle any arguements anyway.

I'm not a big Bush fan, but let's be fair...
Clinton was a draft dodger and holds no better ground than Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/democrat/clinton/skeletons/draft.shtml

They both suck & both are at fault for this mess.

hopefully 2008 will bring someone with some character and balls to stop the whining and make America whole again.

Andrew

You are wrong. Clinton was absolutely correct! Please read this to disprove that Clinton "made that up."

http://reason.com/0004/fe.cf.secrets.shtml

You also said...

"Twisting history and current facts in order to incite political support just makes me sick. It violates everything we should be standing for."

I agree whole heartedly. But of course Bush makes me sick.

By the way who told you...

"the one time Bill authorized major military action against Bin Ladin he was praised--not criticized--by conservatives."

Just curious...looks like your side is "twisting history"

Terry

I JUST ARRIVED AT THIS SITE TO MERELY READ THIS ARTICLE REGARDING THE PRESIDENT'S VIEWS ON THE LEAKED NIE REPORT. I READ THE ARTICLE, THEN REALIZED THERE WERE EDITORIAL COMMENTS BELOW. WHAT A SICKENING, UNCIVILIZED BUNCH OF VITRIOLIC GARBAGE!!!!!!! IT'S ONE THING TO HAVE A DEMOCRATIC DISCUSSION, EVEN A VIGOROUS ONE, IN A RESPECTFUL & INTELLIGENT MANNER. THIS TRASH BELONGS ON A RESTROOM STALL. OR AN ENEMY'S TO-READ LIST. DISGUSTING. GLAD I AM NOT A REGULAR ON THIS VULGAR AND HATEFUL SITE! MOST OF THE POSTINGS HERE INDICATE MINDS WHO DON'T DESERVE THE DEMOCRACY WE'VE INHERITED. IT SCARES ME FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR GREAT COUNTRY THAT WE CAN'T EVEN HAVE CIVIL DISCOURSE ON SUCH VITAL ISSUES!

Here's some of the new declassed material. (NYT)

"“The Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere,” the excerpts said.

“The Iraq conflict has become the ‘cause célèbre’ for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of U.S. involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.”"

Wha????? I thought this was supposed to help W's position!!

Peg,

Well, go on back to the 'life style' and 'reality TV' blogs.
I'm sure you will like it there much better.

We weren't in Iraq because Iraq did not attack us. So why did we go into Iraq?

We didn't go into Iraq until after we let Bin Laden get away in Afghanistan. Bin Laden attacked us - but I believe it was a symbolic, personal attack against the Bush family and administrations that never would have happened had we NOT let Bush first steal Florida and the US Presidency in 2000. We let him steal Ohio and the US a second time - shame on us.

Since he didn't need us for our consent, there is no consent.

Four years was good enough for his daddy.

Bush doesn't want an end to any war. The people he works for (certainly not US) want to divide the world into the saved and the damned, at any and all costs. Erosion of our civil liberties is just a beginning to an end.

Iran is next, but not last, and only if we cannot stop him and anyone who dares follow in his steps.

Cowboy diplomacy? Worst diplomat we never elected. Bring it on? Anything that accellerates Armageddon is obviously welcomed by the current Administration. Losing another Vietnam, and then another? Baby steps.

Guys there is a second report just on Iraq. If released it will destory all talking points on Iraq. The White House as of now has refused to release it. Both Republicans and Democrats on the Itell Committee want it released

I think Peg was really screaming at us with those caps. Boy, that really raises the level of discourse.

Hey Lefties...Everything is blowing up in your face.
Posted by: Paulo | Sep 26, 2006 1:12:16 PM

No Paulo, its blowing up in the faces of our armed service members in Iraq, and Bush does not give a rats ass about it.
Despite yesterdays testimony from retired military commanders about the abysmal performance of Rumsfeld, and other mountains of similiar evidence, the President has chosen to sit on his hands and do absolutely nothing.
George Bush is not worthy of being Commander-in- Chief of a Boy Scout troop.

IT SCARES ME FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR GREAT COUNTRY THAT WE CAN'T EVEN HAVE CIVIL DISCOURSE ON SUCH VITAL ISSUES!
Posted by: PEGGY | Sep 26, 2006 4:45:59 PM

Peggy,
Youre kinda scary.
BTW, youre also the loudest one telling others to be quite - whats that about?
Townhall.com has some of the "polite" discourse youre looking for.
You should be particularly fond of the writings of "Mr. Manners" aka Michael Savage.
Now go - make haste in your search for truth.

Peggy.

Go and lie down.

Haha, Peggy if you were here more often you would realize that most of the people here are regulars and even though theres a ton of wasted space, there is also the occasional good debate.

Methinks this might be the first of "By the Book of Rove October Surprises". What's to say Uncle Rove didnt plan the leak, fake severe displeasure with the "obviously" Democratic leak, angrily demand the rest be released and voila! There is lots in there for Dems to sink their teeth into and go into a predictable (by Uncle of course)froth, but the Repubs have the upper hand as the general gist of this is to lose in Iraq would be terrible, would show our weakness.
Perfect debate fodder, "Mr/Mrs. Democrat, are you such a 'cut and runner' (this years "flip-flopper" as per the Book of Rove) that you would ignore this declassified materials suggestions?"
C'mon, you have to think like Rove. EVERYTHING is planned and accounted for, EVERYTHING happens by the book. What looks like a Dem. leak is probably just more orders from the Uncle. Hello, he wins every election because he plays off kneee-jerk reactions and perceptions of the American public! He is the master of talking points("Call him a 'flip-flopper', and call HIM a 'cut-and-runner', she is a 'Defeatocrat'" etc.)

Ignore why we went to war. Ignore that Jihadists are spreading and every violent act we take just inflames them, just keep plugging away in Iraq. How anyone thinks we can:
-"Kill off all the jihadist-islamo-facists-hitler-lovers"
-"We'll show them! If we kill some, the rest will be scared away!"
-"If we install a government in Iraq and kick some Jihadi butt, the rest of those fanatics will sigh and give up their dreams of paradise."

We blew it going into Iraq. We blew it because that one move has fanned the fires of hatred to a fever pitch. We had it goin on in Afghanistan, we had the civilized world on our side.
We blew it, and what now Uncle?

"Stay the Course!"

Of course.

I think Little Georgie is getting worried about the elections.He now looks dumb and nervous.

OHCD,The Brit with Wit,great post as usual!

Peggy,couldn't hear you,could you repeat that.

Bill,typical dribble,16 spy agencies tell us what we already figured out,Bushie made the Middle East a ****ing disaster.No basis in fact.Yeah right.

For such a document to leak out of white house realm, shows that the battle is not just outside United States. If the war on terror has to be worn, America must unite, be you democrat or republican

You can all say what you will, but I am looking forward to the day that I can vote away all of your retirement, pensions, Etc. I cant wait until 90% of the baby boomers are eating cat food without healthcare in debt up to your greedy necks. You guys got us into this and we are going to hold you all responsible for your actions. If it comes between us or you guess who we are going to chose? Complain all you want I will just turn up the volume on my IPOD.

It's really interesting how terrorists mainly attack America! Who cannot see that the reason for that is America's hegemony and war mongering all over the world in the last 100 years?

The contrast between the reasoned, factual posts from the Left and the witless, emotional responses from the Right is striking.

It's pretty scary that on Election Day, everyone's vote is counted the same.

going to war in Iraq did slow the flow of oil that sadam used to trade for food. I can rember 20 years ago opec would meet and set quotas. The next thing sadam would break the set quotas. and all opec members would start competing with each other. I guess in a way that high gas prices helped slow global warming.

I THINK G.W.BUSH HAS NO CLUE WHAT HE IS SAYING/DOING

My questions are:

1. How many leakers does the White House go through in a year?
2. How much does the job pay?
3. Where do you sign up?

"You can all say what you will, but I am looking forward to the day that I can vote away all of your retirement, pensions, Etc. I cant wait until 90% of the baby boomers are eating cat food without healthcare in debt up to your greedy necks. You guys got us into this and we are going to hold you all responsible for your actions. If it comes between us or you guess who we are going to chose? Complain all you want I will just turn up the volume on my IPOD.

Posted by: aroo | Sep 26, 2006 8:48:02 PM"

I KNEW I should have held that pillow down over your face longer when you were in your crib and I had my chance! You were always an ungrateful child, and you dressed funny besides!

CM: Sheehan's book was fascinating. Are you famiiliar with works of Keith William Nolan?

Paulo claims to be a VietName veteran, I'd be very interested in knowing what unit he was associated with.

It's funny that you Loony Lefters conveniently neglect to note that the NIE report also states that the U.S. has severely hampered Al Qaeda, and that if the terrorists in Iraq leave defeated that will destroy their desire to continue. Gee, i wonder why??

It's also sad that the Loony Lefters attacked Peggy for pointing out much of the hate (mostly by the Loony Lefters, which is backed up by their attacks on Peggy). She made a valid point, but you Loony Lefters continue to prove you're just as whacked out as bin Laden and his gang.

To Paulo,Bill,Juanito,Little Johnny,and the rest of the KEYBOARD FIGHTING 95TH.

According to the latest polls,even the Iraqi citizens want us to get out of their country.

Read the story and weep wing nuts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721_pf.html

Good editorial in the Tribune today on what the NIE REALLY says.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0609270002sep27,0,2561432.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-hed

West Point buries first cadet from ‘Class of 9/11’

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15021226/

She died a soldier's death. Leading a convoy, doing what an officer is supposed to do. She was real, and we can only hope the cause for which she died for was as real as her.

I've posted this for JD, who said that he's willing to wait the 15 years the generals say it'll take to "complete the mission" in Iraq. He likened it to paying his mortage, it's longer than 15 years and that he's staying the course there.

In fiscal terms: $1.5B a week for 15 years is $3900B, meaning $3.9Trillion USD. You're looking at 2.5 YEARS of ENTIRE U.S. TREASURY REVENUE at 2004 level.

In human terms: in the past 3 years of the Iraqi war, the U.S. has suffered 2,700 dead and 20,000 wounded. In 15 years that number will be 13,500 dead and 100,000 wounded.

Staying the course is not a tenable option. Commit the nation or get out. I'm not prepared for another 10,800 Emily Perez. Bruce? JohnD? Paulo? Your thoughts?

Hey aroo,

You need to join Peggy over in the soap opera blog.

And by all means, turn up Brittany on your ipod. It'll make it easier for old Dale to get the angle on you.

Odd that the NIE segments released aren't more supportive -- there must be nothing good to say.

And true to form, a report on global warming was locked up after much WH scrutiny.

Don't these guys understand that the US should set the example?

"The problem is that Bush, who has trashed the Constitution to the point that it is now little more than a historical artifact, doesn't think he needs approval from the UN or even from the Congress to embark on his most dangerous, bloody and immoral war yet."

OHCD,

Well put.

What with the 'unitary executive', signing statements, and the existing, broad permission for war from our slow footed Rapture Ready congress, it's all good to go.

Hey America, you can sacrifice for the cause by going to the mall and turning up your IPOD's.

"CM: Sheehan's book was fascinating. Are you famiiliar with works of Keith William Nolan?"

Jack,

No, haven't checked him out. Will put him on the to read list.

Let's put a list together for 'aroo', ok?

Here's my first submission:

A. Solshenistzn, W. Shirer, Hemmingway, G. Greene, Twain, Orwell, Huxley, Dostoevsky, Rand, Caputo, Abbey, Pasternak, Dickens, Steinbeck, S. Lewis, U Sinclair, J. Jones, H. James.

This is just the very short list. Maybe it can be downloaded to his IPOD.

Lotta Russians there, but don't be scared little fella.

Raving Loon, is the Iraqi desire for us to leave any different than the German desire after WWII or the Japanese after WWII?

By the way, buried within the article is this bit of truth:

The Program on International Policy Attitudes poll, which was conducted over the first three days of September for WorldPublicOpinion.org, found that support among Sunni Muslims for a withdrawal of all U.S.-led forces within six months dropped to 57 percent in September from 83 percent in January.

"There is a kind of softening of Sunni attitudes toward the U.S.," said Steven Kull, director of PIPA and editor of WorldPublicOpinion.org. "But you can't go so far as to say the majority of Sunnis don't want the U.S. out. They do. They're just not quite in the same hurry as they were before."

Raving Loon, you need to stick to the Dick and Jane books too. Easier for you to understand.

"Odd that the NIE segments released aren't more supportive -- there must be nothing good to say.

Posted by: Kenny Bunkport | Sep 27, 2006 10:04:03 AM"

KB,

Yeah, I thought that too.

It reminds me of that old John Cleese bit where he is waving his arms and making meaningless noise to distract Sybil from the obvious truth. Well, kind of.

Jack,nice try,but I think you'll find the little boys you addressed your post to aren't big on reality.

The proplem is,if Bush was truly committed to the war on terrorism,he would have called for a draft.But that would commit the young Repups like his 2 swinging daughters and the Fighting Keyboard 95th who blog here.

Over the last year,with everything that has come out,including the latest NIE report,you still have these immature little yuppies cheering on a war that is not likely to end in this great victory Cheney promised.

Yet they never shed a tear for the fallen,just spin the truth and stay the course,with more Americans dying.

Poor aroo,

It must be incredibly frustrating to be so young and have all the answers.

Tom Brokaw was wrong - YOURS is the greatest generation.

JohnD...Peggy was talking about you!

CM: Keith Nolan did, I think, the authoritative books of the soldiers(Marines) for the soldiers. I can't say enough good things about his books. No politcal agenda. ZERO. But they put you on the ground, right next to the guy getting shot at.

"We were soldiers once and young" was nice, but nowhere near the intensity of Nolan's works. I'd start with "Operation Buffalo: USMC Fights for the DMZ".

He stopped at "Ripcord: Screaming Eagles Under Siege 1971". I think he's had enough, I certainly would. Unfortunate, I would have liked to see his work on Dak To/Hill 857, the hellish fight by 173rd Airborne. One of my Drill Sergeants back at Sand Hill wore that flying dagger patch. I think there is a book out by Ed Murphy but it's out of print - waiting, hope Presidio Press will reprint it.

John (RL): I realize a lot of times answering and posing questions/answers to folks like JohnD, JD gets you no response. But I can only hope that there are readers here that take some of the information to heart and think, and even possibly effect change.

Bill: The NIE was ABSOLUTELY correct. However it omits certain points to avoid embarassing the current admnistration even further.

(1) "America's intervention, in short, is a lot of Mideast thugs' worst nightmare." Absolutely true, in AFGHANISTAN. American action was/is welcomed by the populace. Why are we not finishing the job there?

(2) " That long was Washington's excuse for appeasing cruel leaders who opposed such dangerous constructs as representative government, personal freedoms and rights for women. Such appeasement helped to feed the "entrenched grievances" that the NIE cites as one of the four underlying factors in the spread of Islamic terrorism." In places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan, our ALLIES. How many of the 9/11 attackers were Iraqi? Oh sorry, Saudi? What was OBL's nationality?

Bill, a smart and competent administration would admit that we're endangering the nation by streching the Army too thin and paying for the war on a deficit, and either mobilize the nation, finish the Iraq thing or get out so we can concentrate on Afghanistan.

But then a smart and competent adminstration would have finished Afghanistan and OBL and left Iraq alone in the first place, to allow Iran and Iraq to counterbalance each other, keep up our military/economy competitiveness for the coming Chinese/Russian/Japaense hegemony.

You know it's funny. I had thought with Dick Cheney running the show and all the experienced folks from Bush #41, that what would have been done. Boy was I wrong.

I think a lot of you are missing the positive side of this post. Before George Bush or someone on his staff can release this document or an edited version, they will have to actually READ it! That's certainly a step in the right direction, isn't it? Never let it be said that I wouldn't give the administration all the credit they deserve when they (finally) do something right.

Bill,
Rather than read an editorial review of the NIE report maybe others should read the actual document, but since you instructed us to read the Tribs take on it I believe they are correct in what they assess is the most important statement w/in the document: "the Muslim mainstream emerges as the most powerful weapon in the war on terror". This is precisely why we must fight them aggressively but w/in the law. This means applying the Geneva Conventions to those captured on the battlefield. This has already been settled by the United States Supreme Court by many disagree. Otherwise we only feed further anti-US resentment. Many will always hate us but the Muslim mainstream can be won over if we show them there is a difference between who we are and who the enemy is.

DO ALL CAPS AND MULTIPLE PUNCTUATION(!!!) MARKS REALLY(?!?) MAKE YOUR POINT MORE FORCEFULLY!?!?!?!?!!!

PS: a belated thankyou for expanding to 20 most recent posts. (!!!!!)

Jack,

Two more book sug. then I'll shut up about it:

The Short Timers, (Hasford), a terrific short novel. It was the basis for Stanley Kubrick's great film, Full Metal Jacket. Kubrick told the tale in two nearly separate stories, with the same characters in each half. The first half is so good you can smell the drill ground.
And who can forget 'Lawrence's' love affair with his M-14?

Meditations in Green, (Wright) No describing it here.

PS to Jack.

I took basic on Sand Hill, Ft. Benning Ga, Feb-Apr, 1969.
'C,4,1, Second to none, chargin' charley, rah rah.'
Sound familiar? We had to say it real loud.

E-1-1, May-Aug '82. I was just a bit behind you bro. We were Echo Eagles. Sounded corny but we had to say it real loud too :-) Ahhh yes, brings back fond and not-so-fond memories.

You know I always thought FMJ was loosely based on Robert Roth's Sand In The Wind?

Jack,

Echo Eagles! Oh yeah!

Google 'the short timers author', or 'full metal jacket kubrick'
Interesting synopsis'.

Everybody else, excuse the ramblings of a late middled aged guy.

J.
In 82 did ya' still have the 1940 barracks? One of my clearest memories is the smell of floor wax and coal dust. You could taste it in the morning.

Our barracks had a coal fired heater and WATER heater. Enough hot water was made overnight for one shower. There were 40 of us in the house.

OK, now I really really promise to quit on this.

CM:

Actually by the time I got there Sand Hill (1st Training Bridage) barracks were all concrete 3 (4?) story open-bay dorm type buildings, but still 40 to a bay. Some are from other platoons though, because they pulled all the 11H (81mm mortars) from each platoon and put them together in a bay for "special attention" :-) We didn't need to wax the floors but the bathroom still required our full attention. Or training cycle was the last to run in boot. The folks after our cycle starting doing their daily runs in gym shoes. Too many stress fractures.

The folks who went to Harmony Church (2nd Training Brigade) were still in the wood barracks and I believe remains today.

No need to feel that you're rambling sir. That's the great thing about having worn green (or any other color) for Uncle Sam, we have bragging rights and we never have to say we're sorry we served.

Jack,

I want this in print:

If you knew (as stated in Joe S.'s analysis in which you thought was true) that Iraq would be stable and secure in 15 years. You wouldn't think it would be worth it?

Yes or no.

If no, what is your timeline and cost?

As far as my mortgage, I was being fecicious, which of couse you ran with because you have nothing else.

What is your time line Jack?

Hey! Where did 'aroo' go? Left the room?

Bush is a liar, and he's trying to distract attention from his failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Bush can't hide the facts forever - case in point - a recently released video that everybody should see entitled "911 Mysteries," which focuses on bizarre coincidences, actual scientific facts, and disturbing eyewitness testimony - it’s free on the Internet. (Google Videos).

The documentary is a professionally produced and comprehensive analysis of the United States government's official version of events contrasted to circumstantial and factual evidence gathered by independent scholars and scientists over the past five years. The filmmakers describe the documentary as " 90 minutes of pure demolition evidence and analysis, laced with dramatic witness testimonials - a careful deconstruction of the official story set right alongside clean, clear science. The video is not about politics or nationalism or loyalty, but one of strict and simple physics. How do you get a 10-second 110-story pancake collapse? " The most compelling theory is that explosives were used to bring down the buildings in a controlled demolition.

I believe that this video will change what many Americans think about 9/11, namely that Bush and his co-conspirators are culpable. Will they be brought to justice, and indicted for treason and war crimes? Something will be done if enough people know.

aroo says:

"I cant wait until 90% of the baby boomers are eating cat food without healthcare in debt up to your greedy necks. "

Hey, buddy. I know you are there. Here are some clues for you to help you fight your way back to reality.

Ever wonder who made up the names 'Baby Boomer', Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Zero, Senior Citizen, Gen Nobody?

Some Madison Avenue as%h*#@, that's who. Those names are marketing handles designed to target consumer segments for exploitation.

Put on the old 'thinking cap'. The Pigs in charge of the 'Animal Farm' are using you to sell more, well, IPODS.

I'm serious little buddy. Take that book list seriously.

You got to get on down to Wall Mart and buy a clue, fool.

I know you are there.

Here's an old old song you need to download to the IPOD.
Ever hear it?

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the Steak Bar. He loved to drive in his Jaguar.
So welcome to the machine.
************

So there ya go, aroo. Think about it. Everything you need to know.

And remember, my old pard Dale P. may be anywhere at any time.

Beathing control, site picture, squeeze don't pull, target down, score.

I don't take fecicious jokes about dead Americans kindly. Each one is a son and a daughter, with a telegram delivered to a next of kin. Like the W's joke about finding WMDs under the sofa cushions, its distasteful. What I think about that and your joke is not fit to print.

The answer to your question is a resounding NO. Iraq will not be stable and secure in 15 years. Or 30 years. I won't spend another U.S. dollar or have one more casualty in that hell hole.

You want to stablize? Mobilize this nation, raise taxes, and start up a non-exempt draft. And be prepared to stay there 50 years, just to keep the status quo. General Shinseki said 500,000 troops, and your guy Rumsfeld fired him. That Rummy, he's doing a heck uva job, isn't he? Because you've taken over from Saddam, and he had 30% of the population behind him. Sorta like W. Ironic, isn't it?

Now, I want your answer in print. Is another 10,000 US dead, 200,000 US wounded, and $3.9Trillion in 15 years worth it? If not, what' YOUR timeline?

Jack,

I just can't stop. You keep sparking memories of the bad old days.

Those old 1940 barracks where haunted houses. I'd lay there at night with the coal dust belching out of the vent, thinking of my dad (Dem), two Uncles, (one Dem one Socialist) and dad in law , (Republican, I stole his daughter!!), that went through identical units in 41-45.

The Socialist Uncle served in WWII and Korea. He was a bombardier in B-24's. Flew out of Italy, after it fell. Destroyed a lot of refineries in Romainia. Then was called back for 3 years, from 1950 to 1953 at Ft. Richardson ALaska. Can you imagine what that would be like in the early 50's?

Repub. Dad in law: Bombardier on a B-29 out of Guam. Carpet bombed Tokyo with incendiaries. He only talked about it with me once, back in the mid-eighties. Said he always threw up after every mission. Said his greatest regret in life was climbing into the nose of a B-29. We all owe him a lot.

Dad, all trained and ready to go, P-47 hot shot, waiting in S.D. Then, Hiroshima, Nagasaky. Nuff said.

My other Uncle was younger. Died in a routine training mission, 1960. He was a Naval aviator; prop drive Douglas, A6 SkyRaiders. Could pick up 12,000 lbs. of ord. off the deck of the 'Bon Home' Richard'. The sucker just blew up one day.

I am not trying to go all soft on this subject, verclept and all, but I would not minding hearing the stories of other guys and gals on this blog tell the tales of their folks.

It might be a good thing right now.

aroo? How about it.

All the folks who wore green and blue for Uncle over the years, voluntarily or not, Thank you.

I think of those in 172nd Bde and 1st Bde 1st Armored getting their tour extended, so that the 1st Bde 3rd ID can have their 12 months in between tours, before going back for the 3rd time. They're robbing Peter to pay Paul, doing a 30 division job with 10 divisions.

I also understand the powers-be are reviewing deployment limitation for NG/AR units so they can be re-deployed in Iraq. Like they have the equipement to go.

JD, have you any idea of the material shortages in the NG/AR units? How many tour in Iraq do you expect a solder to pull, in your timeline? What's your projection on the pending rise in enlistment rate for patriotic 18 year olds so you can stay the course in Iraq?

Hey, Aroo, little guy,

Healing up yet?

Just ask Ned Beatty. It'll eventually get better.

Well I've answered JD but he seems to have disappeared again..... that or he's just afraid.

Jack,

Yeah, it's almost as if when the final posts are made that wrap up your whole argument, everybody runs out of the room.

But man, we took care of 'aroo', ehy?

So Jack,
How many lives, years and funds did it take to win WW2 and stabalize Western Europe and Japan? How about the Berlin airlift? Was it worth the money and supplies? Should we have just quit?

How about the cold war that followed. Should we have given up in 1960?

You can get as emotional as you want, but I think getting the job done it what is important. You said all of JOE S's analysis was true including where a General said it would take 15 years to stabalized Iraq. You guys claim it can't be done, I'm saying if it can be done and takes 15 years, its worth persuing.

Why do you think you're know as the defeatist party? Its more that a political slogan. I now have it in writing from you.

If you haven't noticed we still have troops in Europe, Japan, Korea, and who knows how many nukes pointed at Moscow.

Should we just quit and hope for the best?

Actually, I should n't even ask. I have it in writing from you.

Run away, Run away, Run away!

CM,

something about pointing out the truth that frightens them.

Nice job on that story on the YR, btw.

JD,
In the history of warfare there is not one example of an insurgency being defeated. "Withdrawel with honor" is probably the closest you can get.

Jack,

There's Jethro again, piping in the 'Rain Man' clarity again in just a few words. Short but sweet.

Just so we are clear C. Morris, Jethro.....and Jack (if he's taken his medication)

You guys think our only option is "withdrawl with honor?"

Is that true with Afghanistan as well?

JD,

You ask a very hard question.

We got in under false pretense, in my opinion. This is why we are having a convulsion over how to get out. This has become as divisive as Vietnam.

There is no good way out.

1. Withdrawing with honor is one way, maybe the only way.

2. Committing to an effort similar to WWII is another. Draft. Sorry, too bad.

3. Staying the course with three tours for our troops is not an option. This is becoming cruel.

We have to go back over the old ground of who lied. Otherwise it's like strontium 90, it's in our marrow. We gotta get it out.

JD,

You ask a very hard question.

We got in under false pretense, in my opinion. This is why we are having a convulsion over how to get out. This has become as divisive as Vietnam.

There is no good way out.

1. Withdrawing with honor is one way, maybe the only way.

2. Committing to an effort similar to WWII is another. Draft. Sorry, too bad.

3. Staying the course with three tours for our troops is not an option. This is becoming cruel.

We have to go back over the old ground of who lied. Otherwise it's like strontium 90, it's in our marrow. We gotta get it out.