Hastert: 'Democrats would pamper terrorists'

It is quite clear that Frank James has no capability whatsoever of being an objective reporter. His Hastert pampers pedophile line is so over the top and libelous.

I will say this and have proof to back it up: Democrats and liberals DO pamper and aid pedophiles. Proof: Gerry Studds remaining in Congress. The ACLU defense of the Man-Boy Love Association. Liberal judges in Vermont and Ohio giving light jail sentences to people who repeatedly rape children, sentences of a just a few months. Democrats across the country voting against Jessica's Law oreven preventing it from being voted on by state legislators.

Denny (Head Pig) speaks; What's wrong Napoleon? The inmates down on the Animal Farm getting restless?

Somewhere in the deepest, darkest pit of Hell, Dr. Goebbels is cring pure tears of joy.

Radical leftists like Colin Powell?

Give 'em (heck) Denny!
Everyone knows that a large percentage of the radical left opposed even the war in Afghanistan and we here in Chicago saw them protesting it several times in Daley Plaza. I'll let that stand on its own.

p.s. Boehner's become the go-to guy for calling out the orthodox left wing on these matters. Great job, whip.

If 'pampering' them would stop the creation of whole new even larger generations of terrorists from being created, then I'm all for pampering. Can you even imagine the naivete of using that description based on the conditions these people (yes, sorry, but they are indeed still people) have lived under the last 4 years? Yes, gee, let's torture them so they will love democracy and apple pie.

And still, none of these holier than thou Americans asks the big question of what creates a so-called terrorist. We are doomed to fail along with every other repressive empire in history.

Now why would someone have that impression?

I think you've stumbled upon what separates leftists from rightists on the issue of terrorists, DD.

You want to understand the terrorists and help them, after all "they're people, too." To what end, I know not. I still believe the United States didn't deserve to have nearly 3,000 of its civillians killed (and let's be frank, they were people, too) or have any of the terrorist attacks of the '90s, '80s and '70s occur. Therefore, I have little interest in understanding what made them come here and murder my fellow citizens. My main concern is keeping them from doing it again. And the best way to do that is to kill them and destroy their terrorist networks.

I think our military and government should go about the business of killing terrorists with extreme prejudice and send the message that no matter if you're a loose network, an aspiring America-hater or just a single radical, you WILL be held accountable for murdering our citizens.

You go the pampering route, see where that gets you. We'll choose the killing route.

I'll say it because it is true: “Hastert pampers pedophiles.”

I love how the Republican party uses their voters...and then doesn't do anything about it. So many of our fellow citizens are such idiots (those who decide to "stay the course" with the GOP because the GOP plays on their fears of terrorists, homophobia, and religion. Then, once elected, they do shit to help you out. Bush has had 5 years to catch Bin Laden...I'm still waiting, and so are you.)

Final word: “Hastert pampers pedophiles.”

I think it's funny that Denny Hastert would falsly claim that "Democrats Pamper Terrorists",

Kind of like: "Hastert Pampers Republican Sexual Predator/Pedophiles In Order To Keep A Republican Majority In The House".

Two can play that game Mr.Hastert!!

Okay John D.,
I have proof Republicans hate black people because they oppose affirmative action. Republicans hate disabled people because they want to dismantle Social Security. Sound ridiculous? Your logic is beneath a child.

Mary,
The Republicans can get away with it because they have a bunch of "Republicans can do no wrong" foot soldiers like Bill,John/JD,and Burrito who will sell the Republican line of garbage every four years.

They like Pedophiles too,as long as they are Republican Pedophiles.

What? Defeatocrats pamper criminals and pedophiles? Who else would vote for them if they didn't?

I agree Bill. We should kill all terrorists. So why are we in Iraq? They didn't have anything to do w/ 9/11 or international terrorism. We are creating more terrorists w/ that misadventure. Stay the course, see where that gets you.

Do Rush, Fox News, and the RNC pay Bill for his irrational illogical rants, or is he just--as Karl Rove would say-- nuts? Either way, in just three weeks, the ship will be "righted" and the wing nuts will be tossed overboard, a little late but better late than never.

Hurrah! Hurrah! No more Habeus Corpus! Woohoo! Now we can call all the damn liberals enemy combatants and ship 'em off to Gitmo!

Habeaus Corpus is dead! Long Live King George!

Denny and rest of the Republo-fascists call it pampering terrorists. True libertarians and Americans call it defending the Constitution and what America stands for. Habeus corpus, search and seizure, its all there in black and white. Republo-fascists don't care about laws or the Constitution, they only care about creating a culture of fear to retain power.

To Bill and all You other Right Wing Nut Jobs - Read a book. I suggest either "The Looming Tower: The Plan of Al Qaeda leading to 9-11" and also Woodward's "State of Denial". Both emphatically state that Bush Junior and his staff of morons were warned several times months before 9-11, both by Dick Clarke and the CIA, that Al Qaeda was planning "Hiroshima type attacks on the U.S. soil by using hijacked airplanes and flying them into strategic facilities." Clarke had his briefing with Condi "I cannot Recall" Rice and warned her that Al Qaeda was going to more than likely strike New York. Bill - You are correct - 3,000 Americans and nationals died needlessly on 9-11 BECAUSE THIS INEPT COWBOY ADMINISTRATION DROPPED THE BALL! Now they constantly and shamelessly wrap themselves arround 9-11 and the flag and pretend that they are the so called "Fighters of Terrorism". Is it just me or does this administration and it's MEdia Stooges make you want to vote them out of office come November?

It's amazing the emotional responses that political discussions trigger. Rational thought is completely ignored and the discussion itself becomes a topic of winning/losing. How is anyone personally winning or losing with this piece, or for that matter, many other pieces of legislation. A piece of interrogation legislation?? That elicits huge news in this country??
If you support either side of the aisle, do you truly feel that your representatives have your personal best interest at stake? Have you ever called them and spoken with them on what your true concerns may be? If so, were they responsive?
Healthcare costs in this country have gone through the roof. Are the baby-boomers concerned that Social Security is still going to be there anymore? Are their retirement and pension funds going to charge them a flat medical rate? Have they even looked? Beyond the baby-boomers, has the emerging adult population looked at this as a major concern? No, we're afraid of another 9/11 attack. Therein lies the naivete. Your representative government just spent time discussing how they want to treat those who would do harm against this country instead of working to solve the harm that is already existing and growing right here before us.

Democrats pampering terrorists - hmmm.

I suppose Bush is pampering Bin Laden (the one Bush said he would hunt down dead or alive) since he has let him go on multiple ocassions. The first time being in the mountains in Tora Bora because we did not have enough troops in the region and the second time when Bush disbanded the agency that was suppose to be finding him.

What about Bush creating more terrorists in the Middle East becuase of a senseless war in Iraq that did not have anything to do with 9/11. Meanwhile all the axis of evil countries have obtained nuclear capabilities. Now which was more dangerous?

This is over the top. S. 3930 The Military Commision Act breaks Article 3 of the Geneva Convention. It also is a violation of the 5th 8th and 14th Amendment. Because of this Terrorist could a :get-out-of-jail-free card. The Supreme Court will strike this one down.Now to Hastert statement show me the proff that Democrats will let a Terrorist attack happen. This Big blank protected Foley and did not pass the FY 2007 Veterans Budget. Plus with all the other Budgets not passed America is not safer. American Values are now with over 59 percent of the American people saying Democrats are better. Over 55 percent say Democrats are stronger on Terror them Republicans. Now as a veterans this act put or troops at risk of torture by any country. Torture has not or never will work. God Protect Our Troops because Republican won't

J. Dennis Hastert...another tough war talking Republican with absolutely zero military experience. He's a VietNam war draft dodger. A yellow-belly coward. He should gear up and go to restore order in Iraq if he's so patriotic. His days as House Speaker are numbered. If the Democrats win the House on November 7th...there will be lots and lots of subpoenas flying around Washington, DC.

Jethro, because we should've done it in 1991 and in 1998 when Clinton bombed Iraq. Saddam was getting rich off the UN oil for food program and if he survived the standoff he'd've been even more powerful in the Muslim world. The fact that he was no Osama fan shouldn't get him off the hook.

Doug R.,
You are correct,sir.

I wonder what Frumpy Denny was weighing back in the Nam days.

I have to believe that he was a part of the Vietnam draftdodging chickenhawk team,you know the lineup,..Dubya...FrankinCheney..KKKarl...the list is a long one...

Billyboy,

George Dubya.."I will get Osama Bin Laden dead or alive".......kind of....maybe...I can't find him..for the time being....Saddam is more important...I guess.....

I think even a wingnut like you gets picture.

I was the leader of a 3rd world country w/ a 5th rate army. Iraq did not pose a direct threat the United States.

"We'll choose the killing route..." Wowie zowie, Bill! Spoken like a true Mongol, Hun, Klingon, or whatever other kind of John-Wayne-esque cartoon character you fancy yourself to be.

"To what end, [You] know not," eh? Well, maybe it's because things like "fathoming," empathy, negotiations, and change require patience and the personal courage for self-reflection and criticism, and the ability to admit one just might be wrong, conned, or mis-led. So, let's test your courage, your's and all the other GI Joe's who think the shortest distance to peace is to blow up everything in between.

A little "thought experiment," to see if you can begin to "fathom." Your words, different author:

"You want to understand the [Americans]and [collaborate with] them, after all "they're people, too." To what end, I know not. I still believe [Iraq, but also Lebanon, and many more countries since WWII] didn't deserve to have nearly 600,000 of its civillians killed (and let's be frank, they were people, too) or have any of the [American aerial and land] terrorist attacks of the '90s, and '00s occur. Therefore, I have little interest in understanding what made them come here and murder my fellow citizens. My main concern is keeping them from doing it again. And the best way to do that is to kill them and destroy their terrorist [military] networks.

I think our military and government [and movement] should go about the business of killing [American] terrorists with extreme prejudice and send the message that no matter if you're a loose [empire], network, an aspiring Iraqi-hater or just a single [right-wing] radical, you WILL be held accountable for murdering our citizens.

You go the pampering route, see where that gets you. We'll choose the killing route.
Posted by: Osama Bill-Laden | Oct 17, 2006 1:37:37 PM

[end of thought experiment]

You get the picture yet, Genghis Bill?

Bill, by your logic Patton was right and we should have gone after Stalin in 1945, and MacArthur was right, we should have nuked the Chinese in 1951 to "win" the Korean war.

Your ability to blaming the past to defend the actions of the current administration continue to amaze me.

Janet,The last time I looked The Constitution had something to do with uh,uh,uh...Americans!
Not "TERRORISTS" from another country that want to destroy us....You are precious!
Paulo

Just when I thought this might be a worthwhile, thoughtful blog, I see this string of nonsensical babble. Does Hastert bring out the worst in all of you? Or is it name-calling in general?

I'm going back to watching reruns of "Andy Griffith" to fill my afternoons.

Denny, you are completely missing the point, and frankly so are all of the "neocons" . This is a battle of ideas for the "hearts and minds" of people, and yes we must care what people outside of our country think. The view of the US has never been lower due to these types of policies. There is no way to always protect our home land from every potential threat. We can completely wall off our shores and someone will still find a way in. And yes the bad guys are seeking ever greater technology including recruiting nuclear scientists. Which is why we must win the war of ideas. The US has in the past represented many of the ideals of humanity, the approach of this administration has sent the wrong message. It is perceived that everyone who is not a US national is less than human and doesn't deserve full human rights. This is the wrong message to send when we are trying to undermine the bad guys. Yea we may have killed about 4,000 bag guys in Iraq, but we have created many times that number of dedicated future bad guys/jihadists who will attack tomorrow or the day after. We will not win this war, we are in fact losing it very badly.

Little Johnny and Rambo Bill are loading up their water pistols right now.OBL is shaking in his cave!

Honestly,other than a couple of children that post here,voters have finally figured out the tired diatribe of the failed Republican party.

It all will be over in a few weeks,when some sanity takes over this country.

I agree with the defeatocrats here. All we need is Madelyn Albright, some nuclear technology tips, and a basketball signed by MJ and everybody will love us. Only, this time, let's replace Madelyn Albright with the legendary Barrack Obama. His persuasive oratory may enable us to keep the BBall this time.

Somewhere, over the rainbow.....

Paulo,
You sound crazy. What other rights would you like to give up?

That's odd, Paulo, because the last time I looked at the Constitution, I couldn't find the word "American" in there at all. It does occasionally refer to "citizens of the United States", but most of those references are in relation to voting. The provisions regarding general rights all refer to "the people".

The Republicans obviously didn't read the central point of the National Intelligence Estimate that Bush declassified. Otherwise they would not be ridiculing the idea of reaching out to moderate Muslims and understanding what 4 main reasons continue to drive Muslim extremism.

RCK,
Don't forget we need Donald Rumsfeld to shake their hands w/ a big smile and sell them "harmless" light water nuclear reactors.

Patton WAS right in that millions of lives would've been saved by removing Stalin's regime in 1945 when the opportunity existed. You do realize that Stalin actually murdered more people than Hitler during his reign, don't you? Instead we stood aside and did nothing as genocide occurred. History repeats itself.

I'm not actually saying that a full-on war with the Soviet Union after world war II would've been a good thing or even feasible, mind you. I'm just saying that Patton certainly had a point and the millions of people that Stalin "disappeared" would agree. Your offhand dismissal of the idea of one of our nation's greatest generals shows your lack of perspective.

I agree with you about Korea, though.

I've realized that Hastert's (and the GOP in general) rhetoric that Democrats "gingerly pamper terrorists" is the new form of Gowin's Law today. Godwin's Law generally holds that the longer an issue is debated, the more likely it is someone will compare his opponent to Hitler or the Nazis.

Godwin argues in his book "Cyber Rights" that such discussions should avoid the analogy because it reduces the force of one's argument. I'd say that's rather apt here for Hastert and his supporters. Such comments don't anger me as a Dem in the slightest. They simply demonstrate how the GOP leadership is utterly incapable of expressing any cogent ideas on how to provide security against terrorism.

"GOP" is it your position that Lincoln was wrong to suspend habeus corpus in the civil war, too?

I was the leader of a 3rd world country w/ a 5th rate army. Iraq did not pose a direct threat the United States.

Posted by: jethro | Oct 17, 2006 3:05:48 PM

Hmmm, 3rd world country with a 5th rate army. What does that make Iraq, only about 8 times more organized and better equipped than Al Qaeda, right? And what did they accomplish? Oh, right, September 11. Quit living in your pre-9/11 fantasy world. The old assumptions went out the window that day. Don't underestimate your enemy.

Bill states: "I have little interest in understanding what made them come here and murder my fellow citizens. My main concern is keeping them from doing it again. And the best way to do that is to kill them and destroy their terrorist networks."

No, Bill, that is not the best way to do that. Attacking a complex problem such as terroroism requires planning and nuance, two words that seem to have disappeared from the conservative dictionary. You say you have "little interest in understanding" what causes these people to resort to terror. If you don't understand you will never be able to stop them. Killing your enemy makes martyrs, it doesn't solve problems. That's not to say that you should never kill your enemy, it just means that killing is a last resort. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world as is not going away anytime soon. Isn't the prudent choice to try to find the root cause of Islamic radicalism and work to eliminate it through education and mercy?

The other issue here is our Constitution. If we continue to violate it in support of a "greater cause" (ie. the war on terror) then those rights will cease to exist for future Americans regardless of what happens today. John D professes his hatred of the ACLU for defending a group he finds abhorent. One of the toughest parts of a democracy is the fact that sometimes we have to defend what we despise in order to preserve our own rights. The right fails to understand this.

Speaker Hastert likes to use phrases like "Democrats pamper terroorists" becuase these are catch phrases that will resonate with uninformed voters. To the educated and informed, however, they sound like ignorance.

Dave, the only picture I get is that you like to put words in other people's mouths. The difference is America never killed 3,000 innocent people for no good reason. You can keep trying to play psychologist with these Islamic terrorists but if you look at history they've wanted us dead for 50 years because they hate our way of life. Period. That's not going to change anytime soon no matter how touchy-feely and "feel your pain" we act toward them.

"Somewhere, over the rainbow.....

Posted by: RCK | Oct 17, 2006 3:47:50 PM"

RCK,

So, do you support going onto the gold standard?

Or do you agree with W. J. Bryan that this country should not be 'crucified on a cross of gold'. (?)

Bill,
It is always wrong to imprison citizens and not allow them to challenge their imprisonment before a court of law.

Jethro,

That picture of Rummy shaking hands with Saddam is my second favorite Republican photo shoot.

My favorite is of GWB in his little cheerleader outfit.

Bill,
Iraq was neutered, in a box, had no WMD. Al-Qaeda continues to plot. Keep your eye on the ball.

What are your odds of being killed by a terrorist attack? How are you identifying these threats? Are you so blindly willing to let someone else tell you that you're way of life hangs in the balance of some civil conflict across the Globe? Do you feel that if we brought our armed forces home that we would just be sitting here waiting to be attacked again? Since we have forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, are they such a huge distraction to any course of action outside of that region?

Have any of the countries identified showed any imperialistic aspirations? Why won't our representatives focus on fixing the inadequecies that exist in this country?? It is so much easier to sell possible future 9/11 outcomes than to convince the American Public that a serious discussion of our current way of living is not going to be sustainable.

Ours will be one of the first generations where sons & daughters will most likely not be able to make a living similar to our own. This is the legacy that we want to leave?
Sorry we didn't fix the financial and social institutions that you DO NEED everyday to sustain, but we did the best we could to protect you from the physical threat of terror and harm.

We created legislation that would let us use any means necessary to "interrogate" a terror suspect, but we didn't act to create legislation to interrogate our lobbying and political fundraising system.

What a proud day for the Republicans! This legislation would give us a legal system on par with that of the communist Chinese or the old Soviet Union.

We can torture our prisoners to get confessions and railroad any defendant by denying them legal representation. Woohoo! It won't matter if they're guilty or innocent as long as we call them terrorists, right?

George and Denny deserve "Hero of the Soviet Union" medals for this bill.

The statement "Hastert pampers pedophiles" is completely out of line.

Rep Foley (R-Fl) was not a pedophile. Pedophiles are people, mostly men, who are sexually aroused by and attracted to prepubecent children. Rep. Foley (R-Fl) attempted to have sexual communication and perhaps sexual contact with teenagers. Hastert attempted to cover up the creepy criminal actions of a twisted pervert not a pedophile.

Therefore, a responsible person would say, "Hastert pampers perverts."

Dienne, one small correction, it's "we the people," not just "the people."

But Democrats DO pamper terrorists. It's one of their core values. They believe foreign terrorists captured abroad should be treated like American citizen shoplifters, with "rights" from Miranda warnings to trial by jury to air conditioning.(Senator Durbin's contribution). Senator Dodd says he will work to rescind the terrorist interrogation legislation when/if the democrats come to power.
Real Americans, on the other hand, believe foreign terrorists should be locked up until the war on terror is over and won. If that takes a long time, sorry 'bout that. Am I saying modern Democrats are not "real Americans?" Darn right I am.

"Patton WAS right in that millions of lives would've been saved by removing Stalin's regime in 1945 when the opportunity existed." -Bill

That's crazy talk Bill. I'm sure Patton would have loved to play Napoleon, but the only opportunity we had was for years of long bloody war fighting the Russians after years of long bloody war fighting the Germans. The Russians had a huge army and some of the best armor in the war. We wouldn't have saved any lives fighting that war.

Of course, you could always argue that we'd have been greeted as liberators...

"Room service?"

Yes, Mr. bin Laden?

"I'll be retiring soon, please send up a defeatocrat to prepare my cave."

Right away Mr. bin Laden. I'll send up a defeatocrat to cut and run right up to your cave. Will you be leaving Hotel Tora Bora soon? If so I'll just have our B-52s do figure 8s over head for the next 8 hours or so so as not to bomb you back to the stone age.

"Thank you, Mr. President."

(Knock, knock) Good evening Mr. bin Laden may I pamper your terrorist self by turning down your blankey and leave a mint on your pillow?

(This exchange has been brought to you Denny's House of neo-con whack jobs.)

Ms Bennet,

(If you're still out there) I understand your sentiment. For every reasonably intelligent well mannered poster here there are half a dozen malicious oafs.

I come here to engage the thoughtful people, but I have to confess that the oafs are wearying. No small part of the problem is that the Trib likes to increase the traffic by stirring up the mouth breathers from time to time.

A couple of suggestions if you still think that blogging might not be a bad idea in principle:

1) Go to "Spengler's Forum". I guarantee you'll work up a sweat proving your intellectual meddle, and you won't find sputtering baffoons like R. L.

or

2) Start your own blog.

PS: Or instead of "sweat", should I say "glow"?

JANET,you're the crazy one!Are you planning on becoming a terrorist?I'm not,so I'm not giving up any rights.
Who teaches you at your college,Ward Churchill?
You're precious,but of little value.
DIENNE,The Constitution is a document embodying principles upon which the "American Republic" is conducted.Go back to your left wing drawing board and try something that makes sense.
Paulo

Paulo you think given up your 5th 8th and 14th is not given up your right wow are you right wing

The Bushites won the election of 2004 primarly because they were able to convince the American voters that they would do a better job fighting terrorism than the Democrats.

They are attempting the same ploy this time around. Can they pull it off? Who knows, but I believe many of the voters are tired of the same old tired Republican approach on not only the war in Iraq but most of the important issues facing us as a nation.

Make sure you vote on November 7th. Our democratic system depends upon your involvement,
and you determination to be heard at the ballot box!

Why not jump on a sled, and go straight to the bottom of the slippery slope?
Round up anyone thought to be a terrorist.
Skip the trial - everyone is guilty.
Swiftly hang them in the center of town at noon.
Take comfort in the safety and protection we will have created by our swift system of justice and punishment.
Celebrate the elimination of the enemy. How about a old-fashioned community BBQ of the corpses? Rides and fun for the kids, and free food for all.

That scenario would make the piece of legislation signed today look like it was written by an un-patriotic, "fake-American" that pampers terrorists. Agree, John Patrick?
All true-blue, real Americans could finally sleep well, knowing their country is absolutely safe from the terrorists.

Dale Peters...Why do you think I would be giving up any rights,I'm an american citizen and if I was pulled in,for any reason,my rights would automatically kick in. The debate that we are losing rights is just plain wrong,it's a phony argument laid out there by the left.I thought you were smarter than that.
Paulo

Tom O, I agree. You're 100% correct that Patton was wrong to want to continue the war and take it to the Soviet Union. It would've caused more nations to take sides against the US and prolonged World War II when most of Europe was rubble.

But he WAS right in his contention that if we didn't go into the Soviet Union and remove Stalin immediately after the war we wouldn't get another chance to bring democracy there. The Soviet Union lost 20 million lives due to world war II, more than any other nation. The US lost much fewer soldiers. Patton's contention was that if we really couldn't trust Stalin that the time to remove him and march to Stalingrad was immediately after the war.

It was only decades later that we learned that Stalin and his Politburo killed and imprisoned more than 7 million people in the gulags. Ask anyone who lived through that time in Russia (or the ones you can't ask) and they'll say that leaving that madman in power was a horrible mistake that cost the lives of millions.

It depends on what you prefer: 7 million mostly innocent people dead and a cold war or untold millions dead and a continuation of World War II. Patton preferred the former. I can't say for sure who was right because history only went one way.

Janet, are you saying it was wrong for Lincoln to do it, then? Are you some kind of Lincoln hater? History records the actions of our greatest president (arguable, along with Washington) much differently.

Jethro, as "neutered" as Iraq might have been Saddam is and always was dangerous. We know he and his government financially supported suicide bombers. That's harboring terrorists. Plus, let's remember that Osama's newfound popularity among radical Islamists cut into Saddam's standing in the wacko crowd. There's nothing he wouldn't stoop to, including an attack on the US, to be the hero of the radical Islamist movement again just like he was in 1991. And no, the oceans didn't keep us safe before so I have no confidence they will again.

Dean G., sure it's good to understand these people's motivations but what I meant when I said I have no interest in understanding them is that I have no interest in justifying the reasons they attack us. They've been doing it since the 1970s with the first Pan Am hijacking. They hate us and they hate our way of life and most of the reasons are Eastern propaganda that doesn't look at our way of life with any nuance.

For instance, they plotted to bring down the World Trade Center because it's a center of international finance yet most of them don't have any money to invest. Seems like scapegoating and jealousy. They plotted attacks on Las Vegas because it's "a center of Western decadence," yet most of the Sept. 11 hijackers frequented strip clubs and drank heavily before suicide bombing the towers.

It's fine to understand what they want and to encourage the reform of the more modern Islamic republics like the UAE, Egypt, and even Iran. But I cross the line at sympathizing with them, which several posters here have already done.

The roots of radical Islam go back decades and are based on wiping out our way of life based on lies and propaganda. The use of terror as a weapon, alone, means they can't be negotiated or reasoned with. How can you reason with a movement that's based on a lie?

This comment is directed at Frank James:

How many times do we have to be reminded? There is no (quote) "war on terror" (unquote). It is a stupid statement, and I’ll explain why in a moment. I don’t mean that as a pejorative. And to repeat it, or give it any credence, is to help spread a lie, a deliberate attempt at propaganda, or a statement by a person who does not know what he or she is talking about. I find that the newspapers and television, as well as “blogs” on the internet, all use the phrase “war on terror” and it does everyone a disservice. Google alone states that there are 137,000,000 references to this phase.

When our President, George Bush, says those words, he is talking non-sense. So is anyone else using these words.

The words are inflammatory, and their ultimate effect often deliberately to cause people to suspend any rational judgment about the things the speaker wants to do because of this so-called “War on Terror.” When rational judgment is suspended, people will do anything no matter how ineffective it is because of the emotional mind-clouding power, and the fear it gives rise to, when such meaningless words are used.

It is also extremely sloppy journalism to repeat this phase, except as a direct quote, because it is meaningless. It is as meaningless as “war on laziness” or the “war on weather.” Journalists seem never to have heard of semantics, or an “abstraction ladder”, a key concept in semantics (well worth looking at), both of which deal with the meaning of words and how their use affects us.

Right now, we as a country are involved in a number of situations, some dangerous, some not, one or two very separate wars, some diplomatic efforts, and a very diverse set of circumstances that may possibly threaten our way of life, and we, as a country, appear to be afraid of a number of diversified groups of people who reside in various countries. We are also, as a country, possibly threatened in a number of ways by a number of countries, as opposed to small scattered groups of people. All of these have been lumped together into a catch phrase that is entirely meaningless, namely a "war on terror."

If we can define what these groups and countries are and distinguish how they differ from one another, it can help us to understand what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, and what the characteristics of all this mixed up “war on terror” might really mean. This, of course, immediately implies that there is no one single opponent against whom we can wage war, but instead presents a variety of different situations, some more dangerous than others, each of them requiring that we handle them, as best we can, in different ways if we want to reduce any threat they pose.

• The first group of people that we claim to be fighting with is a vaguely defined group, once led by a man named Bin Laden, that calls itself Al Qaeda. It appears to be based in Afghanistan, but may have spread to various other countries. It is a loosely-knit, guerrilla group that dislikes “the West”, vaguely defined as European and American countries. We don’t know nearly enough about it to be “at war” with this group because it is so diffuse, and it is all too easy to confuse it with other groups at times. It is not certain that its leaders are alive or have control over this group because it is so diffuse. Originally, it was most probably responsible for the event known as “9/11”. We, as a country under President Bush, claim to be fighting this group but appear to have lost interest in pursuing this group forcefully.

I say “claim to be fighting” because, for all of our efforts, we have never caught Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda appears to be stronger than ever before. We have troops in Afghanistan, but they appear to be there mainly poised to defend the central government, which has been threatened by a number of groups including the Taliban (the prior totalitarian government), war lords in various provinces, and a loose network of guerillas including the Al Qaeda group. The current Administration, led by President Bush, has apparently de-emphasized our military efforts in Afghanistan and his rhetoric, his use of the words “war on terror”, appear to be mainly directed at Iraq, not Afghanistan.

The number of deaths of U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan in this first military operation is 255 with 765 injured as of January 2006, as tracked by Wikipedia. I cite this figure in sharp contrast to the number of U.S. troops killed in the next military effort, still going on today, in Iraq which was 2,299 U.S. soldiers killed and 33,094 seriously injured as of March 2006 (cited at the site http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspxhttp://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx). The disparity between Afghanistan and Iraq, in terms of dead and casualties is very revealing about what is being emphasized.

• The second group that we were fighting was the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq. It was a war declared by President Bush, with no real resistance from Congress. The enemy was a vague one – mainly the dictator, Saddam Hussein, who somehow had Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) and was linked vaguely to “terrorists”, the same ones named in Afghanistan as being Al Qaeda. None of these reasons has proven to be true. I repeat: None of the reasons given for this war have been proven to be true. As cited above, more than 2,000 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Iraq as a result of this war. Because of what the President and his Administration have been saying, and repeating as a mantra, according to many surveys, many people in the U.S. believe, irrationally, that this war is being fought as a “war on terror.” This is simply not an accurate or true statement.

It appears that Iraq has three major ethnic groups that have never gotten along. When Saddam was in charge of the country, the Sunni controlled everything with an iron hand. The Shiites, although in the majority, had no political power. The Kurds, the third group, also had no power. Once Saddam’s forces were overcome by the U.S. forces, the Shiites grabbed political power, the Kurds grabbed the northern part of the country, and the Sunni who had control and resented losing it have begun conducting an insurgency. The Shiites and the Sunni both have deep hatred of each other; it is obvious that the Sunni aren’t used to being out of power, and the Shiites resent all of the terrible things that were done to their people when the Sunni were in power. This is has led to brutal killings, with our troops in the middle, mainly siding with the Shiite majority. The country at this time may be in civil war.

Our troops really aren’t fighting “terror” or “terrorists” here. They are actually intervening in an internal conflict that has been going on for a long time back to when England and Winston Churchill was involved. I will add that there have been instances of non-Iraqi individuals crossing the border into Iraq from Syria and Iran to attack American military forces, and some of these individuals may be linked to Al Qaeda, but that is not the biggest part of the problem. In fact, because of our invasion of Iraq and our destruction of the status quo, by eliminating Saddam Hussein, it may be that we have opened a whole new breeding ground for, and encouraged, these individuals to learn how to operate successfully and conduct terrorist operations.

Iraq thus appears to be involved in a civil war of Sunnis versus Shiites, with Kurds protecting their interests, and some outsiders conducting guerilla terrorist operations aimed at fomenting unrest and driving the U.S. forces out. We cannot be involved in a “war on terror” here because there are at least four separate parties here, and it isn’t always clear who is doing what to hurt or kill whom.

• A third arena whom we are not fighting is North Korea, a dictatorship that is working to build an atomic bomb capability. This country is a military threat to South Korea because it possesses a huge standing army of more than a million soldiers. It is a country with a well-defined government, not a loosely organized group of individuals. We have not declared war on them, nor have they declared war on the U.S. But for some reason, at times, they have been included in this “war on terror.”

• A fourth arena that is also sometimes referred to under the mantra of “war on terror” is Iran. Iran is the largest country in the Middle East, with a government that is primarily run by its religious right. They may provide a place for Al Qaeda and other groups which dislike the U.S. for various reasons to develop and train members. We are not at war with Iran, and they are not at war with us. But, for some reason, they also have been lumped into this “war on terror”.

• There are other places in the world, such as South America and the Philippines, that have been also lumped into this “war on terror”, but, again, we have not declared war on them nor have they declared war on the U.S. Numerous groups, some of which hate the U.S. and some involved in insurgencies against their existing government, have the earmarks of “terrorists” in that they conduct underground operations, kill people indiscriminately, have loose organizations, may or may not be linked to other similar organizations.

• In general, it is also important to separate different types of terrorists (a very maligned word) into specific and different groups. For example, Basque separatists, in Spain, commit what we would call terrorist acts. So do the Tamil Tigers in northern Sri Lanka. They can both be called “terrorists.” Please note that, although these groups commit acts that seem to be terrorist acts, such as blowing up bombs in public places and killed innocent civilians, both of these groups are internal in their countries and act much as if they were engaged in a civil war against their existing government.

• So we are not at war with all of the groups I’ve mentioned. We couldn’t be. Many of them have no government for us to declare war on. It is sloppy use of communication to say that we are engaged in a “war on terror” when we really need to understand that there are many such groups around the world, each separate and different, each requiring different tactics, each posing a different type of threat (in some cases, no threat) to our country.

Please remember that next time you hear these words. If you understand what has been said here, you will be able to determine how absurd such a claim is (“war on terror”) and look at what the person saying these words is really trying to do. He or she may be trying to scare you so you don’t think clearly; he or she may be pushing an agenda to take rights away from you; he or she may be saying such words to get elected again; or to be considered “patriotic” or “strong” or “effective”. Always listen to the words and match them to the actions. The outcome may surprise you and open your eyes to what is actually going on.

When Hastert or any other Republican lashes out, ala Karl Rove, it seems to me that the press and the media and the Liberals and Democrats have been playing the victim, as in "Poor me!", for much too long. First, they let the Republicans mount an attack on them and their positions or do something unjust like imprisoning your employee. Then they act surprised at the "bad" Republicans for doing this. Then they protest, calling what the Republicans do "despicable" or "dirty tricks" or "untrue" or, worse yet, as you do, "unfair". All of which only makes you, the press and your organization look even more like victims. And so you dig your own fate. I also sense that, when you do this and ring your hands, you are hoping the Republicans will receive their comeuppance from some mysterious force, and that they will self-destruct of their own accord. The Democrats have been out of power for so long they're afraid to lose any handhold they have, and the press and media have become so used to truckling to the Administration, it is almost a lost battle. It is important to recognize that, if you are ever to restore any semblance of dignity you and your organization have, you need to vote for the Democrats this time around, nevertheless, to balance the Republicans who have lived up to Lord Acton's maxim: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Today King George suspended habeas corpus, which the constitution says will never be done except in cases of rebellion or invasion. So, the King gets to decide who gets imprisoned, what or if they get charged with, whether they will be tortured or not, and then sends them to a court where they can't make a habeas appeal, and where hearsay will be allowed. And Republicans, of course, say they are bringing freedom to Iraq? First, they should bring freedom back to the United States. This obscenity was what the Revolution was fought over.

This is a great day of national shame, and people will curse the name of George W. Bush for a hundred years.

Dear Bill,‎

By all means, support The Military Commission Act if you wish. However, this bill does ‎not give the president more power to "kill" terrorists than he had before signing it. But it ‎does give him the right to barge into your home and arrest you as an American citizen for ‎your ties to terrorism whenever he sees fit --- irregardless of whether you're a terrorist or ‎not. And he can hold you indefinitely --- just like the foreign detainees, denying you ‎counsel and information concerning the charges that are brought against you, if he deems ‎such knowledge as classified. ‎

But I do have some good news for you Bill; you will not be amongst the first 500,000-‎‎1,000,000 American citizens arrested by Bush for terrorism… Although good news is ‎awful hard to gauge without the bad, don’t you think? And the bad news Bill; you will be ‎detained sometime early --- to late next year, depending on how quickly Bush arrests the ‎first 500,000-1,000,000 of our fellow citizens as terrorists.‎

Of course, y’alls crimes are trumped-up charges that have nothing to do with terrorism. ‎But you’re not a liberal or a democrat --- or even a liberal democrat like all the other ‎American detainees. You will always be loyal to Bush and will never ever even think of ‎protesting any of the many Republican Wars that America will be fighting if the GOP ‎maintains control of the House or Senate. ‎

Unfortunately, your offense is abject stupidity that’s rather frightening considering your ‎intellectual skills will be judged by the president himself… But I suspect the real reason ‎you’ll be arrested is because sweet Laura --- who’s no longer sweet but menopausal ‎doesn’t like the way you part your hair, after seeing you at some future pro-Republican ‎War rally… Well, now that you know the bad news, I hope you’ll appreciate the good ‎that much more … because it won’t be too long before you’re at Gitmo, hanging naked ‎upside down while your testicles are being electrocuted.‎

"Go to "Spengler's Forum". I guarantee you'll work up a sweat proving your intellectual meddle..."

Before some meddlesome know-it-all mocks my error, I caught it. It's "mettle".

Quelle crock.

It's far from surprising that Republicans would say Democrats are pampering terrorists -- or pedophiles or mass-murderers or Satan worshippers or bestialists for that matter. It's to their advantage to heap every possible anathematic label on us, and they're not about to forego any advantage they could possibly take to hold onto their power.

I'm by NO means in favor of pampering terrorists nor of freeing them to carry out further acts, but it's just plain wrong to torture them. Furthermore, the information gained from torturing suspected terrorists is "iffy" at best, so I don't see a practical advantage to it.

I find it interesting that the same people who are jumping with joy to see Republicans labeling Democrats as "Terrorist Pamperers" were the ones who hooted in outrage to see the Republicans labeled Nazis and pointed out the ludicrous logic in saying such things. I ask: Is torturing captives and depriving them of any kind of civil rights (and, along the way, seeking to curtail constitutional protections of the general populace while making a constant undercurrent of fear) something you'd more likely see coming from: a) Adolf Hitler or b) Thomas Jefferson?

Sad...pathetic...lame...scurrilous: all perfect descriptors of the garbage thrown out in sheer desperation by Herr Rove, et al, in his/their downward death-spiral toward the elections in November.

Hopefully, the Republican Party will wake from its stupor and throw off the restraints placed on it by the Crotch Christians and the other scum who infest the party. Otherwise, they will continue to self-marginalize into the American version of the Taliban.

They should simply give up all pretense now and change the party's name from the GOP to GOD.

Dave, the only picture I get is that you like to put words in other people's mouths. The difference is America never killed 3,000 innocent people for no good reason. You can keep trying to play psychologist with these Islamic terrorists but if you look at history they've wanted us dead for 50 years because they hate our way of life. Period. That's not going to change anytime soon no matter how touchy-feely and "feel your pain" we act toward them.

Posted by: Bill | Oct 17, 2006 4:25:13 PM

Bill...as much as you may not like it, or agree with it, they feel they had a good reason. Just as you feel that if thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraq's have been killed, there is a good reason for that. The Soviet Union hated our way of life, somehow we have managed to not be at war through some sort of thought process. We let fear and anger rule us. We need to use some wisdom also.

"When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?"
Eleanor Roosevelt

Bill,

I have more appreciation for GSP than you can imagine. However for you to say his idea of arming Germans and attacking the Russians in 1945 is a good idea is just as absurd and the idea that GWB had about attacking Iraq. Absurd.

Mao killed just as many in China as Stalin did in Russia, so why do you say that GSP had a good idea while MacAurthr's idea of attacking China and helping Chaing reclaim that piece of real estate was a bad idea? I sure like to see you logic there, if any.

What liberals would like to do is identify who the terrorists really are. Anyone who thinks liberals want to coddle the terrorists have no clue what liberals think. Habeus corpus assures that we do not lock people up who are innocent. Those that are guilty should suffer the full penalty of the law which depending on the severity of the crime should include death by firing squad.

But lets make sure we lock up and shoot the right man. Those that are innocent should be returned to their friends and families ASAP. I'm sure their children miss them.

Dozens of detainees have now been released because they were falsely accused. There are reports that many of the detainees are in Gitmo because they where ID for cash or because of local tribal rivlaries. Is it 5%, 10%, 20% - we don't know.

Bear in mind that regimes hostile to the US will now be more likely to hold US citizens without Habeus corpus rights. This fear has been expressed by dozens of miltary leaders.

How is that we were able to successfully wage a battle against communism without resorting to such a severe erosion of our Constitution. We had hundreds of nuclear warheads pointed at us. We defeated that threat without these ill placed measures. This liberal misses Nixon and Reagan. They helped defeat an even deadlier foe then we face today and they did it without resorting to the Bushistas tactics.

Dean's post epitomozes why the Left is off the charts. He noted my comment of the ACLU defending the Man-Boy Love Association. He says we "have to defend what we despise" in order to keep our freedoms.

Folks, the Man-Boy Love Association actively promotes the raping of boys, whether 8 years old, 10 years old, 14 years old by men. The ACLU is defending NAMBLA's mission and their right to dispense their literature, which tells men how they can trap young boys and have sex with them. They promote that men having sex with young boys is OK, a good thing to do.

And then Dienne and the rest of her gang what to treat head-chopping terrorists with cookies and crumpets.

So, thanks lefties for showing you care more about defending men who want to rape little boys and defending people who want to chop off people's heads.

That is why the Left is dangerous for America and frankly dangerous for mankind.

Pampering terrorists? Funny Hastert doesn't mention how he pampered the pedophile within his own party.

Nothing but lies constantly from the right. America will show that it won't stand for it any longer on Nov 7th.

Paulo,

The thing is you don't know what "terrorist" is going to mean next. Someday you may be protesting something the government is doing and it will be YOU labeled the terrorist. You have to be very careful in giving up rights, it will come back to bite you.

Who is Hastert gingerly pampering???

Zooker,comical,very comical.

Be careful,Juanbito only cares for "intelligent and well mannered postings".

Ground control to Paulo; your right-wing-nut seems a bit loose.

Paulo,

Once again your ignorance is chilling. This new law enables this chimp in a flight suit (as well as any other future President/Hillary?) to lock up American citizens. If the idiot in chief deems you an enemy combatant, then you lose all of your rights AS A CITIZEN...PERIOD! Yesterday was one of the saddest days in the history of this nation. Anyone who claims they're a patriot and supports this law needs to go back and actually read the Constitution this bozo just hacked to pieces!

John D.,

You miss my point completely. Of course the man-boy love association is abhorent. No one questions that. If they were to commit the acts they speak about they should go to jail and rot. The ACLU is not saying they should be allowed to act on tehir twisted fantasie, only that they should be allowed to say them. That is freedom of speech. It is always possible that something you believe in and want to talk about will be labeled repellant by some future lawmaker. Protecting the rights of those we find offensive will ultimately protect our own rights. I have never understood why that simple notion escapes the conservatives.

Why do you think I would be giving up any rights,I'm an american citizen and if I was pulled in,for any reason,my rights would automatically kick in. The debate that we are losing rights is just plain wrong,it's a phony argument laid out there by the left.I thought you were smarter than that.
Paulo

Posted by: Paulo | Oct 17, 2006 11:43:42 PM

This law authorizes any American labeled an enemy combatant to be held without out trial and subjected to harsh interrogations. Our only protection is to rely on the good graces of the whoever is the current President in office. President Howard Dean could label all Republicans enemy combatants and there is nothing you can do about it Paulo because you cheered this sad moment in our nations history.

Gee, aren't we in Iraq to spread democracy and freedom? They may doubt our sincerity when we demonstrate that our rights and freedoms do not apply to the Iraqi people.

The problem with all this jabber about "rights for terrorists" is that it assumes everyone we capture and torture is a terrorist. Unless you honestly believe that the CIA never makes a mistake, then you are saying our government should be allowed to imprison and torture innocent people. I can't agree with that.

I also think it is the surest way to lose all support from our allies and people in the countries that we are occupying. Without the support of the population, we cannot win.

Hello,

I was one of the 16 "radical leftists" who were arrested outside of the White House yesterday. I just can't help but wonder what happened to the line "liberty and justice for all" that was taught to us in the Pledge of Allegiance. It didn't say for only those who agree with us, or those who can speak English fluently.

What Bush did was suspend habeas corpus, which has been around since 1512 (Magna Carta), for potentially huge population -- anyone he (King George) can deem an "enemy combatant." I hope American really start to think about this truly means.

Check out this Website for more info:
http://www.wrrcat.org/

JohnD,

You and I may not believe in NAMBLA. But that's not the point. The point is that, under U.S. Constitution, NABMLA have the RIGHT TO CHALLENGE LAWS that govern their written and spoken ideas.

Now sir, do you agree that NAMBLA should have that right?

It is not freedom of speech to yell fire in a crowded movie theater. Pedophilia is a crime. Child porn is a crime. But, Dean, you're going to tell me the right to dispense child porn is freedom of speech and should be protected?

In addition, it just isn't NAMBLA's "right" to dispense such information that ACLU is supporting, but the ACLU also is supporting NAMBLA's right to exist as well as it's desire to act on its beliefs.

Paulo the 5th 8th and 14th Amendments are all of us Americans rights.The Military Commission Act take those right away from every American if the President decides he does not like what you said or done. Paulo no President should have that right. Plus this act breaks Article 3 of the Geneva Convention while I know you will never serve this Country. Those that do will now face torture by any Country we happen to go to war with. This is the future it is also now why more people in the world will hate us. I know you don't care but those of us with family in the service do.

They are NOT defending the right to act only to SPEAK and EXIST. Why don't you get it, John D. Please read the Constitution and pay particular attention to the First Amendment. It's the First because it's pretty important. You may not agree w/ what they have to say but they do have a right to say it. I despise this group, the KKK and other hate groups but in America everyone has a right to free speach.

John D.,
Why don't you just admit you hate our Constitutional democracy and the freedoms that are derived from said Constitution?

John D.,

I do not believe the literature in question is child porn. That would mean that there were images of some kind and, correct me if I'm wrong, their literature does not include those images. If there were images THAT would be a crime. As far as their right to exist, of course they have that right. As I previously stated if they should ever act on their fantasies or even attempt to they should, and would be, locked up.

Let me take this argument away from such a repellant group. Let's focus on other groups that support illegal activities. Currently marijuana is illegal. There are numerous groups trying to plead the case that it should be legalized. They have literature, magazines, websites etc. Under our Constitution they have every right to do so. Do you support their rights? If cigarettes are ever made illegal (which I'm sure they will be eventually) there will be smokers rights group fighting to have them re-legalized. these issues are obviously not as extreme as NAMBLA but where is the line drawn? Do you have degrees of illegality? That is a mighty slippery slope.

The ACLU's sole purpose and mission statement is to defend the Constitution of the United States. Why do conservatives have such a problem with it? Every criminal defendent is guaranteed a lawyer and it is that lawyer's duty to vigorously defend their client. In some cases this leads to violent criminals being foudn not guilty. If that lawyer is found not to have used every means at his disposal (including legal loopholes, posecutorial misconduct, police misconduct, etc.) to defend his client that lawyer would be disbarred. How is the ACLU any different?

JohnD,

yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater is an ACT, and a punishable CRIME, as a danger to public safety.

But the IDEA of yelling fire in a theater is NOT an ACT and not a CRIME.

Now, if a person rented a screening room in a theater, had a private screening for himself, and yelled, 'fire', would that be a crime? What if it was a private screening for his invited friends, and then he yelled 'fire', would it be a crime then? Is this group 'PUBLIC'?

You seem to have the idea that groups with certain IDEAs, and disseminating of those ideas thereof, unlawful if acted upon, should have their existance outlawed. Is this correct?

Now, their literature, if it included photos of acts, should be viewed as child pornography and should be prosecuted. But what if it's a drawing? That's why we have courts, to define the line, correct?

Man - can anyone else out there wait until after Nov. 7th? This isn't a comment about who wins or loses - though I guarantee all of you are thinking "yes, I can't wait until the republicans/democrats/liberals/conservatives/leftists/right-wingers win/lose" - I'm just really looking forward to November 8th (or realistically, Thanksgiving, when it truly dies dow) when all the useless rancor dies down. Then I can get back to what I think most Americans would like to do - focusing on our work, our families, our pursuits of happiness - and not have to listen to politicians screaming at each other about who's to blame for the state of affairs in the US or world. Seriously - 99 percent of the time, 99 percent of people in this country - or anywhere else in the world - just want to get on with the daily business of their lives. Enough already, you fringe elements on both sides. It's just too damn tiring to listen to you anymore.

Thanks Peteindc, for standing up for our Constitution. I used to consider myself a centrist, but I'm obviously a fellow "radical leftist" these days.

Can you remember the good old days when our president and members of Congress placed their hand on a bible and swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution? It wasn't that long ago. We can only hope that the members of the US Supreme Court don't side with the oath- breakers.

Jack,

I'm not saying GSP's idea was perfect. Read my earlier post. What I'm saying is that he was right that the only opportunity to remove Stalin was after World War II. Removing Stalin would've saved 7 million lives, freed an oppressed people and short-circuited 50 years of the Cold War and the arms race in its infancy. And with 20 million dead after World War II it's hard to argue that the Soviet Union could've withstood the invasion despite the geographic barriers. Who's to say this country wouldn't've been better off without putting all its money and energy into military and space programs for the next 50 years?

Who's to say this country wouldn't've been better off without the mad science of nuclear weapons that still haunt us today? I know the 7 million people Stalin murdered would have thought it was a good idea to free the Russian people from Soviet control. I'm not sure how it would've worked out (and neither are you) but I think with the enhanced perspective of history it's obvious that Stalin was a brutal dictator and leaving him in power was a very bad thing for the Russian people.

Now, as for Mao and Chiang that conflict was different because MacArthur was wrong to put his faith in an ally like Chiang in the first place. Putting him back in power in mainland China wouldn't've fundamentally change the People's Republic. Communism had already taken root and most Chinese people hated Chiang because of the excesses of his reign. The Russians feared Stalin but they would've gladly thrown off the yoke of his oppression for a simple taste of freedom. I don't think the same can be said for the Mao and Chiang situation.

p.s. Jethro, isn't that the problem with the orthodox left wing, though? Everyone has a right to exist and believe and say what they want until they say something that the left disagrees with. In which case people that think evolution is just a theory or (in France) believe the Holocaust never happened need to be silenced.

Pete, Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the civil war and during World War II leftist hero FDR rounded up thousands of citizens of Japanese descent, put them in internment camps and robbed them of their right to habeus corpus. I've got news for you, it happens all the time in wartime.

All of you. QUit arguing and get back to work! Oops, me too!

What the wingnuts like JaneD/JD and Paulooo don't understand is that we are not always going to have a NeoCon President,and this will probably come back to bite them in the a** someday.

John D,

Let's take a stroll into nightmare land. Let's just say that in 2009 Hillary Clinton assumes the presidency of the United States. I know, that's so far-fetched as to be off the reality charts, but I did say this is nightmare land.

So let's say that President Hillary Clinton happens to dig up old Tribune blogs and she doesn't like reading things about "loony lefties", etc. and she decides that you are a threat to the nation. Under the law signed by your beloved president, she would have the right, despite the fact that you are an American citizen, to declare you an enemy combatant, detain you indefinitely and deny you the right to counsel.

So having been declared a terrorist, you certainly wouldn't want President Hillary Clinton to "pamper" such terrorists, would you? So you wouldn't mind a little waterboarding or loud noises blasted in your ears all night? You'd be okay with stripping naked and being doused with cold water in a cold room? You would accept posing in some rather awkward positions, perhaps with other men?

Now, I personally believe that Hillary Clinton or any other Democrat would be above such things, much like I'm sure that you believe that Bush and Co. are above such things. But are you really willing to so easily give either Bush or Clinton such power? I'm not, so if that's "pampering" terrorists, hand me the diapers.

Bill,
The US government apologized and admitted that FDR made a mistake and overstepped his authority it happens but eventually the courts catch up to them. I believe this act is illegal because the Constitution allows the supsension of habeus corpus under certain conditions ONLY and I don't believe we have met those conditions.

Bill typed:

> The difference is America never killed 3,000
> innocent people for no good reason.

That's right, Bill. The estimate now stands at 600,000 innocent people.

Bill,

It is simply not true that it happens all the time during times of war. We have had dozens of wars, and procecuted the war against communism without having to suspend habeus corpus. The Japanese internments were a sad chapter in our history. Most historians and constitutional scholars feel that it was a grave mistake.

There has always been a provision to suspend habeus corpus during war time if: the US is invaded by a foriegn army or if there is armed insurrection with our borders. Neither condition is curently met. Nice try, but what is going on now has no justifiable historical precedent. Even some republicans pointed this out.

Mike M., the U.S. has not killed 600,000 innocent people. That figure has been discredited anyway. Regardless, though, the vast majority of those killed in Iraq have been killed by their neighbors, not the U.S.

Dienne, you make an intriguing point, but it's also based on nontruth. I cannot be branded a terrorist under the law signed yesterday by Queen Hillary anymore than you can be branded one today by President Bush. You seem smarter than some of your fellow lefties here (perhaps becuase you are a liberal and not a far lefty), so my suggestion is not let yourself by carried away by the Loony Left.

John D.,
WRONG...President Hillary could declare you an enemy combatant for offering aid and comfort the the enemy. Then the tribunal of Howard Dean, Ward Churchill, and Susan Sarandon would uphold that decision. Scary isn't it?

Bill, then we agree more than we disagree on this topic. Patton was certainly correct in his low opinion of Stalin. I just don't think there was much of an opportunity at that time. Patton was a brilliant field general and one of the few who seemed to have a good grasp of modern mobile warfare. But I think he liked leading armies in battle a little too much to provide trustworthy advice on wether or not to extend the war.

As you say, there's no way to know if we'd have saved millions of lives by removing Stalin, or caused millions more deaths in Europe and Asia due to prolonged warfare and the famine and disease that a delay in reconstruction might have caused. Launching pre-emptive wars and replacing foriegn governments just isn't a simple straightforward business, is it?

"The Russians feared Stalin but they would've gladly thrown off the yoke of his oppression for a simple taste of freedom".

OK Bill, subsitute Russians with Iraqis, Stalin with Saddam and you have the exact same scenario you have in Iraq today. Actually no, it'll be like Chechnya, 100x fold. And worse, because in order to get there we'd first have to defeate the RedArmy of 250 divisions.

You just have one great idea after another, don't you?

Oh Jethro, clearly the drugs have done much harm. So, when are you going to start telling us that Bush was behind 9/11, that planes didn't fly into the World Trade Towers (it was an optical illusion), and that Cory Lidle's accident was another Bush stunt to cause fear in the American people at election time?

John D,

It's been said here before on this blog and I'll echo their sentiments: You have no soul. The rationale that 600,000 souls where killed by Iraqs neighbors and aren't are concern borders on the insane. These deaths are a direct result of George-chimp-in-a-flight-suit-Bush's bungling of this war...PERIOD. You, sir, are a heartless scumbag.

John D.,

I really would like an answer as to what rights you hold dear, becuase to me you do seem very willing to trample them when you disagree with the message. What happens when it's your message? You counter Dienne's post by saying that Hilary clinton would not be able to label you an enemy combatant but you offer no evidence as to why not. Seriously what happens when those that disagree with you are in a position of power?

I almost always disagree with your views on a wide variety of subjects, but if, say this board were to censor you and not allow your points to be posted I would come to your defense to allow you to speak. That is my duty as an American. I want to believe that you would do the same for me, but somehow I feel that would depend on what I said. That's what I find sad.

"The Russians feared Stalin but they would've gladly thrown off the yoke of his oppression for a simple taste of freedom". -Bill

Bill, I was only kidding when I suggested that you could argue we'd have been greeted as liberators. Given our recent experience, that isn't a very strong argument.

John D.,
The beauty of our system of goverment is that Framers created a system essentially to be run by devils, where they could not do harm, because we didn‘t rely on their good motivations. This act of Congress undoes that system.

Dean, glad to hear you are against censorship because the Trib has censored me on several occasions. Both were in response to your friend John E., calling me a racist because I don't support Obama. Never used any foul language except telling John E what he can do with his ridiculous charge. Trib never answered my e-mails either as to why I was censored. We'll see if even this one gets through.

I really could care less who disagrees with me because disagreement is fundamental. However, the law passed yesterday does not mean Bush will arrest you or Hillary me for being terrorists.

This country was founded and based on freedoms. I do not believe that our constitution covers head-chopping terrorists, nor do I believe the constitution allows pedophiles to do their thing. Doesn't mean they cannot be defended in a court of law, that is a fundamental right. However aiding and abetting their right to commit a crime is not a constitutional right. That is why that lawyer was found guilty the other day. I forget her name, Lynn Something. Anyway, she was aiding and abetting terrorists, passing papers given to her by a jailed terrorist to a free terrorist.

You are dearly mistaken as to what I would do or not do in regard to those I disagree with. If you were aiding and abetting bin Laden, no I would not come to our defense. If you were out protesting the war, I'd think you were wrong, but if it was a peaceful demonstration i would defend your right.

What rankles me though about the Left, is that as soon as someone says something they disagree with they want that person fired. For instance, the Yale president who said something that ultra-women libbers didn't like so they demanded his removal. Or Mark Giangreco being suspended for a week because as a joke he showed an old video of Detroit burning following the Pistons win a couple of years ago. There are countless examples of people losing their jobs because of the Left. I cannot think of one who lost their job because of the Right.

Yeah right...

It wasn't Democrats giving anti-Choice TERRORISTS their dreams come true in legislation.

It is Republicans that do this.

It wasn't Democrats giving their Party a platform that Fred Phelps and his TERRORIST followers can be proud of.

It is Republicans that EMBRACE this.

It wasn't Democratic dogma that Terry Nichols and Timmy McVeigh spouted profusely in their manifestos for five years prior to OKC. It wasn't Democrats coming to their aid at every turn in their trials.

It was Republicans, and every other self-labelled "conservative".

It isn't Democrats spouting TERRORIST THREATS to Americans on FAUX News Channel and AM Radio endlessly and writing books about genociding Americans (Hello Coulter, Hannity, O'Liely, Savage, and Reagan).

It is Republicans that do this.

It wasn't Democrats that gave aid and resources to Eric Robert Rudolph.

It was the Republican half of the entire State of North Carolina.

It wasn't Democrats bombing the Olympics.

It was a Republican.

It isn't Democrats that allow that CONVICTED TERRORIST GROUP OPERATION RESCUE into their Churches and donate money to that CONVICTED TERRORIST GROUP.

It is Republicans.

It wasn't Democrats who supported that child-molesting preacher David Koresh .

It was Republicans.

It wasn't Democrats that sent the Anthrax.

Democrats were the TARGETS.

It wasn't a Democratic family in Rice County Minnesota this Spring that got caught running a bombmaking operation in their basement, and got caught with over 180 bombs on the premesis.

Democrats were the TARGETS of such a "Fine upstanding Conservative Christian Family".

Why is it that the Bush-appointed US Attorney's Office refused to allow the ATF to investigate that "fine upstanding conservative Christian family", or to press Federal charges under USA-PATRIOT on that "Fine upstanding Conservative family"???

It isn't Democrats that let Terrorists define the issues:

March 12, 1998, California: The leader of a militia group called the Southern California Minutemen Association is ordered to stand trial for a plot to use snipers to murder illegal immigrants at the U.S.-Mexican border. A judge rules that there is sufficient evidence to bring Alvin Ung to trial on thirteen felony counts, mostly various weapons and explosives charges.

(For a selection of hundreds of such press clippings, please go to http://rawstory.com/comments/21209.html and read about the DEMOCRATIC record on arresting and prosecuting Terrorists in relation to this story. You will find that out of the small selection posted there out of about 30,000 Terrorist attacks against Americans by the radical right on US soil, that every one of those TERRORIST ACTS and the basis for such was adopted into the GOP platforms Nationwide).

In fact, the FASTEST way to get someone's nutcase manifesto adopted as part of the GOP platform is to blow something up or send somebody Anthrax -- LITERALLY. Just claim you do it for "family values", "racial purity", "to keep the borders safe", "to get your tax cuts", or the big one "because Jesus told you to", and your plank is in like Flint into the GOP platform.

Now, I ask you, Mr. Hastert, who coddles WHAT?!

I think our military and government should go about the business of killing terrorists with extreme prejudice and send the message that no matter if you're a loose network, an aspiring America-hater or just a single radical, you WILL be held accountable for murdering our citizens.

You go the pampering route, see where that gets you. We'll choose the killing route.

Posted by: Bill | Oct 17, 2006 1:37:37 PM

THIS JUST IN. TERRORIST BOMB THREAT AT PLAINFIELD HIGH SCHOOL!

Time to go do some killing, Bill. Oh, wait, the terrorists are only school-rampage-of-the-day Americans. Never mind.

On what mental planet do you have to be from to not realize that when freedoms granted in the Consitution are weakened in any way the result is a REDUCTION in freedom. Are we even speaking the same language? Removing freedoms under any circumstance or pretext is still removing freedom. How can anyone truly believe that removing freedom results in MORE freedom? Claiming to be protecting the constitution by rendering it meaningless is the most backwards, hypocritical, freedom-damaging action one can possibly take. It's worse than terrorism.

As someone above said, torture doesn't work. After hours of waterboarding and other torture, people will say ANYTHING to make it stop. I know I would. Then you get put in front of a tribunal that can use secret evidence that neither you nor your lawyer ever get to see, plus your torture confession, to put you away forever or even execute you.

Here's what it achieves: You get to sentence a lot of people.

Here's what it doesn't achieve: You sentence GUILTY people and find out information about other terrorist suspects.

Aside from being immoral, it simply DOES NOT WORK.

Now imagine this: an American airliner crashes in Iran. The government arrests the survivors and tortures them as terrorist suspects--men, women, and children. Water boarding, sleep deprivation, electroshocks, dogs... the whole nine yards. Then it puts them in front of a secret tribunal using secret evidence and finds them guilty, then executes them all.

You know what? We couldn't even complain anymore. We are now officially at that level of arbitrary injustice. We'd have to stand by and say, "Gee, I guess that's okay, since they're fighting a war on terror, too."

In the name of all that's decent, moral, and just. Please reconsider. Suspects are not the same as terrorists. Most of the people in Gitmo and other (even secret) prisons have not been charged because there really is no evidence but someone pointing the finger at them. Remember what happened in Nazi Germany, when you didn't like your neighbor? You whispered something to the Gestapo, and they'd disappear forever.

We need to be better than that. For our nation's sake, and that of the rest of the world.

Destabliize the world ... this will be the bush legacy. His cries for democracy put shivers down the spine of the leaders of countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China (promoting internal uprising). The rest use the democratic option for electing the most radicalized representation they can find. This is the greatest accomplishment to date of the 'illiterate one'.

"It is the nature of men to make amnity easier than friendship." -- me

As much as I hate to admit it I've voted republican in the past out of self defense issues because I DO believe whole heartedly in the Constitution... which BushCo is now busy ripping to shreds...

What most people dont seem to realize (most Dems & Repubs) is that the 2nd ammendment was put in to keep the government at least somewhat honest... & if you don't understand that let me put it in smaller words... Citizens [aka 'the Militia'] are supposed to keep & bear arms to be able to kick the tyrants out (by shooting-if necessary) if it became necessary.

As for BushCo's take on the Constitution... well has been public knowledge for quite some time. Follow the following link: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml

"The Democratic plan would gingerly pamper the terrorists who plan to destroy innocent Americans' lives."
Interesting. And the reason why the democrats want to pamper terrorists?

John D.

You are right about the Giangreco suspension, it was tastless but not necessarily racist. The suspension was probably unwarranted. I can give you an example of the right getting someone fired, Bill Maher. He was fired from ABC after 911 for saying that the terrorists who attacked us were cowards. He stated that you could call them evil, dispicable or what have you but anyone willing to give their life for a cause was not a coward. Conservatives (and in fairness others as well) demanded he be fired, advertisers pulled their spots and he was let go. He didn't deserve it in fact I believe he was right but as a nation we were traumatized and the knee jerk reaction won out.

My main disagreement with you on rights is that I feel that all speech is protected, even the pedophiles. I did say speech, however. Anyone spouting that garbage should be monitored and if caught even trying to act out what they are saying they should be arrested within the law. I would feel the same way about the KKK, the Nazi party or any other vile group. My point being is that my views could one day be considered vile by some future government. My emotional response to groups like that? You wouldn't even want to know. That's why governing cannot be ruled by emotional responses.

Democrats seem to be motivated entirely by hatred. It's the only thing they all have in common. Very sad. They need to learn to think with their head not their heart.

Paulo: Constitution just for Americans? Your status as an American is now up for debate. If someone decides you are an Enemy Combatant, you are no longer an American, and have no rights.

Secret courts tend to set up networks of "informers" who have no accountability to due process.

This is thought control. This is a tool to keep people in line. "I better not attend that rally to protect the constitution because I might get pegged by the NSA!" And what if that guy who wants your job at work happens to be an "informer" and turns you in? No more "Paulo the American!"

What was it like in Abu Gharib? Why did they close that down? Naked people piled on top of each other. That's pretty sad. But it don't matter, because they were terrorists right? Honestly, who knows? The IDEA is the U.S. doesn't subject people. The IDEA of the Geneva Convention is set up so people don't have to live like animals. Abraham Lincoln? Patton invading the U.S.S.R.? What do these guys really have to do with the issue at hand: Does this legislation authorize torture?

Alan:

Republicans seem to be motivated entirely by fear. Its the only thing they all have in common. Very sad. They need to learn to think.

Speaking of 9/11, a Democratic victory in November will allow us to do something urgent...convene a new and genuinely NON-PARTISAN 9/11 Commission wherein the information presented for assessment is not filtered by a close friend of the President (as was the case with the first Commission). Then, and only then, will we discover how to really prevent another terrorist attack on our country. We will come to see the frightful inconsistencies of what the Bush regime did and did not do. Even Ms. Rice will get a much-deserved chance, under oath, to explain the matter of George Tenet's urgent pleas for her to act on the evidence of an impending attack. We will discover why our military was paralyzed on that frightful day and unravel the seeming paradox of a military exercise involving the concept of planes being hijacked to crash into buildings was being carried off on the very day it really happened...and then how it could be that Ms. Rice, on 9/11, had the audacity to say on camera that they had no idea that such a thing could happen! We will come to appreciate how a building as superbly defended against airborne attack as the Pentagon could be struck by an inbound plane whose path was being tracked by the Vice President...a Vice President who, according to sworn testimony by FAA's Norman Mineta, told a questioning soldier who reported the inbound aircraft's progress to the VP that "YES, THE ORDERS STILL STAND!" (I for one would like to ask Mr. Cheney what orders those were...under oath, of course). We will finally learn a great deal that bears on the realities underlying the terror threat. The truth sets us free, brothers and sisters...and the moment of truth may finally be at hand.

So tired.....so tired of Republicans. Setting up straw men and knocking them down. Democrats know that this is a bad bill. Hell, I think most Republicans must know too. But the simple minded argument that because Dems oppose this bill, it means we want to get all the terrorists together at Disneyland and buy them ice cream is stupid. Even more stupid is believing the rhetoric of a desperate group of pols who are facing a huge electoral defeat. They are gasping for air.

Alan's comment above that "Democrats seem to be motivated entirely by hatred" is so laughably projectionist it blows the mind.

Alan, the Republican Party as a whole spews nothing but hate, and it's there for everyone to watch, read, and hear, and has been for well over a decade now.

I do, although, have a God-given right to hate those who hate me, and my feeling is that Republicans have been on the dealing end of Hate for far too long.

In this, Republicans are kind of like the schoolyard bullies.

There is a reason that the "Bully Game" had been attempted to be banned by Republicans in several states (Florida being most notable). The reason is that it teaches children not to put up with bullies. I may buy the game myself, just to be able to go around the schoolyard in the game to organize the children to beat the bullies up with baseball bats (one of the tools used in the game in the psychological rehab of the bullies).

Honetly, Alan, I don't think many people who have read your comment, who own a TV, AM radio, or can read, aren't laughing thier nether regions off at your assertion that Democrats are entirely motivated by hatred.

The facts are that America has finally woke up, thanks to people like you, and do you realize how hard it is to wake America up?

People like Alan read Ann Coulter. Need I say more?

I just dont understand the 30% of people like John D that still stand up for the administration, even though we can now detain US citizens, for anything, without proof, indefinetly, and without the right of habeas corpes. yes, it makes it really easy for arresting terrorists, but now can't anyone be arrestested for anything the government deems against the state? they have already connected democrats to terrorists, what happens when the government starts arresting people that have different views then them? and really, what happened to the republican party? weren't they supposed to be the party of small government? the party of militiamen? now they want they government to be able to cut into anyones life, for anything it deems fit. wake up! and john, the case against nambla isnt about pedophilia, it is about freedom of speech, i'll attach a like below. once again, do your reseach before you put 2 cents into what the government/news/parents/friends tell you. don't be so gullible. if you will look back, the government always has scapgoats. right nows its terrorists and democrats. but wake up and smell the coffee. there has been to terror attacks since 9/11, there were no terror attacks 5 years before 9/11, dont you think this 'your safer because we made you safe' is just ridiculous? we have a basically open southern border. if osama himself wanted to he could be here already. and the terror plots they broke up? those guys had zero, count them, zero supplies, no real plan, and really, the only thing they had was an idea. more scapgoats and political cannonfodder that you eat up like oatmeal. do a little research yourself every once in awhile, and quit believing everyones else's interpretation of the truth.

Why don't you try reading the Military Commission Act before you open your mouth...It blows my mind at the amount of idiots that talk on authority of a subject and really know very little of what they are talking about....taking the media, with an agenda, as the only source for your information is not the the best way to be informed especially considering its right there to open and read for yourself

nowhere in there does it say that if the leaders of this government are bored one day and are looking for something fun to do can pick you and say yep that one right there I dont like the way he looks he must be an enemy combatant...lets go torture him

however, that is how our enemies think and for those of you who think you can treat them with kindness or even reason with them so you can have peace are living in a fantasy world that you have created for yourself... we all want peace, but some time you have to grow up and face the reality of the world we live in ...these people do not want peace with you...they do not want to be your friend and more importantly they do not want to let you live...they hate you just for the fact that you exist...the fact that you are an American...thats it...thats all the understanding them that you need...thats their motive...and for the split between right and left we are all in the same boat they dont care what side you're on..they just care that you're American.

Jack, there was very little Red Army left after WWII, that's why Patton said the only time to remove Saddam was in the aftermath of WWII. It's written in any history book. The people tearing down the Berlin wall and the statues of Stalin 50 years later seemed to me like they didn't much like the old tyrant. There's a reason Stalingrad was renamed.

Here's a blast from the past concerning the entire Republican position on this issue:

(exerpt follows)

"GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.

"I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way."

"Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution."

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

I've heard from two White House sources who claim they heard from others present in the meeting that the President of the United States called the Constitution "a goddamned piece of paper."

(exerpt ends)

You can read the whole story here: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml

It seems that the ENTIRE Republican Party embraces this view of the Constitution, and it's next to impossible to find a single Republican in this entire country that doesn't.

Shall we quote from Mein Kampf, or Wille und Weg, or myriad other contemporary Nazi publications next? We *KNOW* where the GOP gets it's political strategy, and it comes straight from the 1930-1936 era in Germany, right down to the exact words being used in the mass media.

The People have always been the enemy of the Fascist. Liberals have always been the Fascist's worst enemy, and usually the first to get purged, such as in both Italy and Germany.

Students of History will see that today's Republicans (virtually ALL of whom in the 1930's supporteed both Hitler, and Musillini, and did so openly, and loudly) tend to be a fusion of the Italian and German Fascist models.

Common consensus, as well as Bush's own reading patterns, tell us that Bush prefers the Italian Fascist model over the German though. The Radical Right's own most organized "militias" model themselves after the Italian "Blackshirts" who formed militias to massacre Liberals and their families, both to put Il Duce in power, and to maintain his power after he was in.

In fact, the NRA's favorite son, Mark Koernke, the founder of the Michigan Militia, openly used those groups as a model. I might add that Mark is a convicted Terrorist, and did I mention that he's the DARLING of the NRA?

If you want to know how the Bush Administration is doing in dealing with the Terrorism issue, you can attend a TERRORIST TRAINING CAMP IN THE CATSKILL MOUNTAINS ON OCTOBER 20-22, FOR FULL PARAMILITARY TRAINING ON HOW TO KILL LIBERALS, BLACKS, GAYS, AND JEWS!!! CONTACT THE EMPIRE STATE MILITIA FOR MORE INFO!!! http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Militia_M.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=mm

WHERE THE HELL IS HOMELAND SECURITY? YEAH RIGHT, CHERTOFF SUPPORTS SUCH GROUPS.

Hastert's Recent Name-Calling

Hastert’s name-calling was a cover for the cut-and-run members of Congress who voted for the Military Commission Act. As they voted for the act, they voted against the Constitution they swore to uphold. Most of them cut and ran so the President and Vice President would not call them names that might keep them from being reelected.

The War in Iraq and the Military Commission Act are parts of the same picture.

President Bush will not end the war in Iraq. He has no intention of withdrawing our forces from Iraq while he can use Iraq as the poster child for what terrorist activity might do to America. While there is war in Iraq, his party in Congress will allow the President to exercise his war powers, and that includes making unilateral decisions about defense, antiterrorism, homeland security, and detainees - beyond what the Constitution permits.

On Tuesday, the President signed the Military Commissions Act of 2006. That act gives him sweeping and potentially despotic war powers. Unless the President ends this war beforehand, the next President - an elected one, or Dick Cheney if President Bush cannot finish out his term - will possess "all" of the war powers from the day they enter office.

Every future U.S. President who inherits war will face the struggle of whether to seek peace or to keep sending our troops to war in order to retain these war powers. Never-ending war will not only maim and kill tens of thousands of our troops, it will also break the United States financially - sooner rather than later.

Did members of the Bush Administration purposely flub the war in Iraq and flub the plans to adequately train enough Iraqis to defend their people once our troops left? Surely not! That would be unconscionable..

C.D. Mills

The GOP did steal the presidency, TWICE, and the GOP is right now actively working to STEAL our 2006 Elections. A "do everything" Republican assault on democracy used intimidation, fraud, vote theft, computer rigging, machine distribution manipulation, perpetual distortions and outright lies in the media and headlines, a fake "Homeland" (America is a NATION, not a "homeland". Nazi Germany had a "homeland") security alert, trashing of provisional ballots, denial of a recount and dozens of other dirty tricks to produce a 118,775 "official" margin for Bush that was an utter FICTION, ie a LIE. Exit polls in nine swing states showed Kerry a clear winner as late as 12:21 am on election night. Nationwide exit polls showed him with a 1.5 million vote margin in the popular vote. But somehow, against all statistical probability, Bush wound up with a popular vote victory of nearly 3.5 million. And somehow, against all statistical probability, he carried Ohio and three other states (Iowa, Nevada and New Mexico) where he had been the clear loser in the exit polls. Ohio alone was sufficient to give him a second term, just as Florida had been in 2000. Such an outcome is beyond implausible - unless you saw how the Rove-Blackwell machine stole the vote. The tactics the GOP perfected in Ohio 2004 are now being used in 2006 and honed for re-use in 2008. Neither the Republican-Owned Mainstream Media will admit nor the core of the Democratic Party confron the reality that unless our entire election system immediately gets a total top-to-bottom revamp by an informed public willing to deal with the systematic poisoning of American democracy, there will be no honest elections in the US in 2006 or in 2008. Insist On Independently Verified Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW.

Interesting tidbit from ADL.ORG: http://www.adl.org/learn/default.htm

Click on the Terrorist Training camp bit in the right hand menu box.

Apparently, the "Empire Militia" is holding a TERRORIST TRAINING CAMP from Octorber 20 (Friday) to the 22nd in the Catskill Mountains.

This group is notoriously radical right wing, and generally supports EVERYTHING this Administration does, and were in large part the kind of people who put Bush in office and spew hatred against Democrats and minorities all over the radio, and on FAUX News Channel (hey, if they all sound the same, they are the same).

This apparently has been scheduled for WEEKS. Why hasn't Michael Chertoff rounded these TERRORISTS up, and sent them to Guantamano to be tortured for info on who their members are, what groups they are connected with, and why they want to have a paramilitary training camp designed to train TERRORISTS to massacre Democrats and minority groups??????

Who coddles what? I did a little research after reading this bit on ADL.

You can find some of these guys recruiting for the event on various right wing message boards. The agenda seems to be training to massacre Democrats, Blacks, Jews, and Gays.

In their own words, they seem to support EVERY FREAKING PLANK OF THE GOP PLATFORM!!!!

No wonder Bush won't do anything about them. They are his BASE!

Boy, the Left Loons are in full force on this one. GOP stealing elections. Bush wins Ohio by 120,000 votes but it was stolen. Course, so far it's only been Democrats who have been convicted for vote fraud in Wisconsin (where Kerry won by 10,000 votes), St. Louis, New York, Washington (in which the Republican candidate for governor won the election, won after the first recount, won after the secod recount but lost on the third recount as "votes" were consistently "found" in warehouses).

Yes, the U.S. government is just rounding up Americans all over the place because they are "enemy combatants." Who, we don't know, but the Left Loons tells us it's happening.

There must be some really powerfful Kool-Aid out there that Left Loons are a drinkin. Hey, Loons, tell me more about Bush knocking the buildings down, Cory Lidle part of the Bush plot to scare people, and how Bush was behind the assassination of JFK.

Sara,
I have read this law. Where are the provisions giving CLEAR and PRECISE definitions of enemy combatant? They aren't there. Because of this ambiguity it is very possible that some day in the future that a war protester, an immigration protester or any other type of dissenter to the government could be labeled an enemy combatant. why are you so sure this won't happen?

But you are correct, these people want to kill us. You believe that the only logical conclusion is that we, then, should kill them. No questions asked. Have you ever heard that killing begets killing? By killing these people we create martyrs and therefore more terrorists. Of course some of them will be killed, that can't be helped, but wouldn't the better goal to be capture them and treat them humanely? That way more reasonable people in Muslim nations can start to have their voices heard. They can honestly tell their people that Americans aren't the great Satan the radicals want them to believe. Our duty as the sole remaining super power is to rise above the evils of the world, not join them.

Since the terrorists "hate us for our freedoms", I guess they won't hate us anymore since habeus corpus has been suspended. Yay, we've won!

OC Patriot, an absolutely excellent post. Thank you for the clarity of thought. I only wish that GW and his band of merry men could understand it.

sara,

From Wikipedia:

"Section 948a of title 10 of the United States Code, as added by the Act, defines an "unlawful enemy combatant" as:

`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.

This definition does not exclude American citizens. Prior to the enactment, the phrase "unlawful enemy combatant" was applied by the Bush administration to at least 3 American citizens. See John Walker Lindh, José Padilla, Yaser Hamdi"

So, yeah, you're right, it doesn't specifically say "that if the leaders of this government are bored one day and are looking for something fun to do can pick you and say yep that one right there I dont like the way he looks he must be an enemy combatant...lets go torture him", but it doesn't say they can't, either. Anyone who knows anything about law knows that half of law is defining your terms to specifically and exactly include or exclude what you intend to include or exclude. Just because something isn't included doesn't mean it's excluded.

The Constitution is "only a piece of paper".

The Iraq War will "only be a comma".

*sigh* I guess the destruction of America will only be footnote.

Welcome to the USSA!

I know CM is on vacation, but I can't help but think of this song when I read this thread...

We got the bully pulpit
And the poisoned pen
We got a press no better
Than the public men
This brave new world
Gone bad again
God's finest little creatures
Looking brave and strong
Whistling past the graveyard
Nothing can go wrong
Quoting from the scriptures
With patriotic tears
We got the same old men
With the same old fears
Standing at attention
Wrapped in stars and stripes
They hear the phantom drummers
And the nonexistent pipes
These days the buck stops nowhere
No one takes the blame
But evil is still evil
In anybody's name
If dirt were dollars
If dirt were dollars
If dirt were dollars
We'd all be in the black

First released in 1989, sounds like it was written for yesterday.

Bill, Very little red army left after WWII? According to the British planning documents for Operation Unthinkable (the plan to remove Stalin), the red army had 264 division strength units including 36 armored divisions at the end of the war. They estimated that the US and allies could field 103 divisions. Even if the Russians units were understrength, poorly motivated, and/or not well coordinated that would still make for a long bitter fight that we might not have won. The Russians may not have liked Stalin much, but their armies fought hard against the Germans. Assuming they would have rolled over for an American invasion is exactly like assuming the Iraqis would welcome us as liberators. The fact that the Russian people tore down his statues and renamed Stalingrad 50 years later has little to do with what they would have done in 1945.

Dean G.
If you want to understand what they mean by enemy combatant - go to page two of document they have a definitions section that depicts lawful and unlawful combatant as well as other cases where there needs clarification....

yes my logical conlusion is self preservation - to kill a murderous lunatic running at me with a machete bent on wiping me off the face of the planet ...you don't just stand there doing nothing...
and killing begets killing might be a reasonble thought if you were dealing with reasonable people...you can look at history and see that when we didn't go after them when they came on our soil in 93 it didnt dissipate their need for blood..it fueled it and they just thought hey we can do whatever we want to our enemies without reprise..that superpower isn't so tough ...they are just a bunch of cowards....just what we expect from the satans of the world...lets go get them again and again until they are all dead

we are not creating more terrorist..they were always there...they are just out in the open a little more or you are more aware of them now...and there are more than you can possibly imagine...you don't just find American hater fanatics in the Middle East....North Korea hates us just as much and they are taught this by the dictator who runs their country; he controls every piece of information they receive....they are not allowed to think for themselves...they don't know there is a world out there full of things other than hate...so these idiots are training younger generations that Americans are the enemy and they should destroy us and teach others to do the same ...this has been going on for generations...its not going to stop any time soon if ever....but you have to fight evil by whatever means is called for by the circumstances and it doesnt make you the same as them by fighting them...we don't go after any muslim....we try to stop the fanatics...they might say different ...but they are liers because that wouldnt fit with their teachings that we are evil killers of anyone muslim...stopping evil IS taking the high road....that allows good people to be free (which they arent right now)

Thank you Tom O. I wasn't going to respond anymore on this thread because it'd be useless, I'm sure we all remember how Saddam's statue was pulled down too. Somehow that on-going liberation isn't going too smoothly either.

"North Korea hates us just as much and they are taught this by the dictator who runs their country; he controls every piece of information they receive....they are not allowed to think for themselves...they don't know there is a world out there full of things other than hate...so these idiots are training younger generations that Americans"

- Sara, replace a few of these words....and turn the mirror around -

Tom, you guys are missing the point. I didn't say it was a perfect plan or that it would have definitely succeeded. I'm saying IF it succeeded it would have short-circuited the cold war and that the idea, at the very least, merited serious consideration. Yes, the Red Army still had 36 armored divisions but the US held a technology advantage. The Red Army was only going to get stronger as it replenished its ranks! Patton was right that no matter how strong it was after the war it would only get stronger in the future. The greatest chance for regime change was immediately after the WWII.

That chance was lost and we'll never know if it would've worked or not because we never used operation unthinkable. But we do know that the failure to act led to 50 years of atomic and nuclear escalation, a communist dictatorship in Cuba, the Bay of Pigs Invasion, Vietnam, the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Berlin Wall.

Furthermore, the Cold War destablized governments in South America and Eastern Europe, led to the rise of dictators like Tito and Ceaucescu, directly led to the murder and suffering of millions in the gulags of Russia, an escalation of international espionage, and in order to finally end it the US had to force the Soviet Union to spend so much of its money on its military that it caused even more suffering for the people of Russia. Even today, the US economy's still recovering from the deficit spending that was necessary to out-industrialize the Soviet Union and force it into bankruptcy.

All I'm saying is knowing what we now know, if there had been a way, a military way, to stop all that from happening any leader would have to consider it a viable possibility.

Karl,
If you are trying to be clever with your notion that the Republicans control all information or are dictators well you have failed ...there is a difference between not being allowed to think for one's self and not being capable of having an even partially intelligent thought!

If you've read all of the posts, then you will notice that I've stayed away from both parties. You'll also notice that I stated that these discussions evoke the purest human emotions and tend to produce nothing useful.

All of the judgments that you are blindly passing on Muslims and North Koreans, why can't you fathom that others would have a similar judgment on us? Why would their thoughts be un-intelligent? Are you a native North Korean? or Iraqi? Are you even a Muslim? NO, but you're expressing what you believe to be truths about those that would harm us? That coupled with the legislation that was just passed is one of the most damning and dangerous indictments on where this could lead.

While you're so wrapped in hatred of the enemy, your (and my) healthcare costs have spiked 83%, our Social Security and pension guarantees are filing for bankruptcy, but if we fight these horrible atrocities overseas in the name of your preceived freedoms, you will sleep well at night.

Thinking for oneself and being able to express that thought is our gift of freedom here.

Sara,

You are right, and terrorists are all over the United States. Generally they claim to be Christan, send anthrax, and anthrax threats to Democrats, blow up clinics, blow up gay hangouts, blow up black churches, burn crosses, admire Hitler openly (and many more of them privately (maybe even you?)), openly supported McVeigh and Nichols, openly terrorize anyone they don't like, openly supported Randy Weaver (Seig Heil! His kids were kinda cute in those Waffen SS uniforms shooting at the neighbor's houses), openly supported David Koresh, openly supported Eric Robert Rudolph and gave him aid and comfort (yeah, even Law Enforcement Officers and Preachers helped him), and openly hold TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS IN THE USA, like the one in upstate New York beginning tomorrow afternoon to teach "Conservatives" how to massacre Democrats, Blacks, Jews, and Gays (Sara, you share most of thgeir political views, why don't you join them tomorrow in the Catskill Mountains?).

We have Christian leaders and Senate Majority Leaders, and House Majority Leadership who openly advocate for TERRORIST ATTACKS ON JUDGES, and do so in live telecasts to thosuands of churches nationwide on "Justice Sundays".

We have a President who halts *ALL* FBI investigations into such Terrorist groups from the day he takes office, shutting down investigations like the one in Florida where the Conservative group was selling arms to Hamas, Hizbullah, and Al Qaida. Remember the conviction of the brothers from Militiagan that were made under Clinton? The details of their trial were published int he newspapers on Sept. 10, 2001, they and their gun show circuit buddies were supplying Hamas and Hizbullah with entire shiploads of weapons bought from the GOP's own gun shows in Militiagan, and shipping them to them via Beirut; their conviction and the status of your TERRORIST gun shows, where you can buy books on how to GENOCIDE Democrats and minority groups, was completely buried the next day.

Speaking of GENOCIDEING DEMOCRATS, given the sales of the books of Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilley, Mike Weiner (AKA Mike Savage), and their ilk seem to indicate that TERRORISM is very a VERY popular pastime with people like you, Sara. Want to talk about FAUX News Channel and the kinds of incitement of hate and TERRORIST ACTS AGAINST AMERICANS that they pull off on a daily basis? Thats before we even touch on the topics of your Sponsors of Terrorism that broadcast on AM radio, and the people who finance that (Have you ever advertised on any of those shows that promote TERRORISM against Americans)? Then, What about the "Christian" shortwave stations? Even Timmy McVeigh got his ideas from those, and was tuned regularly to WRNO (New Orleans), WWCR (Nashville), WRMI (Miami), and WHRI (Elkhart). You can tune in those and more, and hear them talking about training to kill Democrats and people they don't like all the time. So many of them act on that too.

Yes, Sara, we have a Terrorist problem in this country. The Terrorists hold beliefs that are indistinguishable from yours. They even vote in large part for the same leaders you vote for, and the same Party.

We have a Terrorist Training camp being run by people indistinguishable from you, Sara, this freaking weekend, and the agenda is training for GENOCIDE of Americans. The Bush Admin most obviously supports this, or the organizers would already be being tortured to get their info. I want them tortured. I want to know how many of them live in my neighborhood, and what their plans are.

I want to know the GOP officials involved (Ashcroft, Barr, even Norm Coleman supports such groups openly (The Minutemen, for instance, a convicted terrorist group. Nice pipe bomb they blew up the environmental group in New Mexico's headquarters with in 1999). The list of Republicans is very long, and in fact includes people like Trent Lott (I remember participating in a two evening project concerning him in January of 2003, and it worked!).

Sara, we are sick and tired of people like you. You will use any means to justify your Nazi beliefs, and yes, they are Nazi, and I can qoute you from the original (can you?).

The Terrorist threat in this country is very real, and it isn't those "swarthy people" as Anne Coulter calls them, it is generally white Christian Conservatives. They are very prolific in their Terrorism on US soil over the past 20 years, performing over 30,000 acts in that period.

Unfortunately, we have a Party in control that supports Domestic Terrorism, and oepnly encourages it using their press mouthpieces. And Sara, I give you a task. It's a simple one. It's to prove a point about the media being GOP-owned. Go to the following sites: http://www.fcc.gov http://www.sec.gov and http://www.fec.gov and do the research yourself. I have. The TV and Radio media is 94% owned by people who donate to the most RADICAL of RIGHT WING political causes. I'm talking about donating to candidates that openly support things like this Terrorist Training Camp in NY being held this weekend. Donations to people like Rich Santorum who OPENLY supports bombings and killings at clinics. Not to mention his completely sick incident with his wife's fetus.

I'm one of the few Dems that actually does support Torture of such people. Such torture may prevent the Civil War the GOP openly wants, and beats the drums for daily on AM radio, on FAUX News Channel, and from the local churches Nationwide.

And Sara, I have a right to hate people who hate me. Ans Sara, from your own words, I would consider YOU to be a potential Terrorist, because what sounds the same, must be the same.

EnderW,
Wow someone needs to take his medication! First of all, I can think you're an idiot without hating you...and just to clarify I dont think all Democrates are idiots just because they disagree with what I believe..they can have intellegent points at times...you however are not one of them...and speaking of beliefs...LETS GET SOMETHING STRAIGHT....being a christian and being a criminal are not synonymous..not even close...also its not synonymous with Republican either there are christians in the Democratic party as well... sorry to burst your little bubble there....but you need serious help....

In fact, speaking of Ann Coulter...

I think the next Democrat she threatens in person should shoot her in the head. There isn't a single jury in the lad that wouldn't aquit the Democrat if the Democrat claims "self-defense".

Ann has made her Terrorist voice heard, and Republicans EMBRACE it.

Self-defense is self-defense. When the Bush Administraqtion won't arrest her for her Terrorist threats and incitement of others to commit Terrorist acts against Democrats, maybe Democrats should start taking preemptive strikes against Terrorists seriously.

If you see Ann, and she threatens you, shoot the TERRORIST WITCH in the face. There isn't a single jury in this country that would convict you if you use a self-defense defense argument.

Same goes for Mike Weiner (Mike Savage), and Mike Reagan. Both are notorious for their incitement of Terrorism against Americans.

It's called self-defense from TERRORISTS, Dems. Wake up!

Just imagine how many innocent lives would be saved if people took the advice in my last two postings...

We have a right to self defense from those who incite Terrorists of their own ilk to strike us as Americans.

Sara thinks I should have meds for taking offense at the widespread incitement of terrorism and hatred by the Christian Right Wing in this country?

Sara, why do you coddle TERRORISTS?

Sara, why do you not declare war on their religion? The are supporting Terrorism! The are in over 30,000 acts of Terrorism in the last 20 years against Americans on US soil committing those acts of Terrorism!

It is people like you who support caving into their EVERY radical deman for judges and legislation.

Why do you support caving into the demands of TERRORISTS, Sara.

The facts stand on the facts. White Conservative Christians have performed over 30,000 acts of TERRORISM against Ameicans on US soil in the past 20 years alone!

The best the Muslim extremists have managed to do is what? Three? Maybe Four? All in the same 20 year period.

This is a war against Terrorists and religious fanatics, Bush said it himself. Sara, are you one of them, or one of us?

The Terrorist Training Camp your Christian buddies are holding in the Catskills to teach Conservatives how to GENOCIDE Democrats and minority groups is the real deal. Why aren't yopu protesting Hastert, and instead supporting his position? Haster has done nothing to stop such training from happening in the USA, and neithre has Bush.

WHY DO YOU SUPPORT CHRISTIAN TERRORISM AGAINST AMERICANS, SARA?

Sara, I think you need some meds. There is a nice doctor in Guantoamno that gives meds to religious extremists who support TERRORISTS...

Hey, Sara... Who needs the meds????

These are just cases prosecuted under Clinton involving the word "BOMB" in the press clipping. These are only a subset of a much much much much much larger set of clippings I have, and this particular one only comes from one of the many many many files of such I have on your White Christian Conservative Terrorists.

Stand by... Sorry folks, but this has to be done... The Nazi Witch here who defends doing nothing to stop Right Wing Terrorists is asking for it...

Remember... 30,000 acts of Terrorism in the past 20 years by Sara's friends....

+++

January 4, 1994, Maryland: Charles Edward Altvater, leader of the World Church of the Creator in Baltimore, receives an addition of seven years to his 18-year prison sentence. Altvater had pled guilty to bombing a police officer's house and another officer's patrol car in 1992 after police towed his car away. At his original sentencing in August, Altvater had received a sentence less than the 25 year maximum, but now a three judge panel reviewing the case decides to impose the maximum sentence.

January 10, 1994, California: Eric Lord Jeffrey is sentenced to five years in prison for making pipe bombs. The alleged Orange County white supremacist was reportedly intending to use them against minority drug dealers. Police seized fourteen bombs.

January 21, 1994, Washington: White supremacist Mark Kowalski, head of a group called the American Front, is sentenced to 140 months in prison for a bombing of an NAACP office in Tacoma, Washington, in July 1993. Kowalski pled guilty to transporting and using explosives and for conspiring to violate the civil rights of blacks and Jews. Kowalski said that he and others plotted the violence as part of a race war to drive minorities out of the community. Kowalski, Jeremiah Knesal and Wayne Wooten, Jr., bombed the NAACP office, then drove to Portland, Oregon, with rifles and pipe bombs, hoping to bomb a Jewish Federation building there, but couldn't find it.

January 21, 1994, Connecticut: Authorities arrest four Klansmen on weapons charges following raids on several residences. Those arrested include the New England leader of the Unified Ku Klux Klan, William Dodge, as well as three other people. Police recover a pipe bomb that had been delivered to Dodge as part of a sting operation launched after Wallingford police learned that KKK members in the area were seeking explosive materials, silencers, and equipment to convert automatic weapons. Also arrested are Scott Palmer, Martin Regan, and Dean Hucal, on various weapons charges. Three more will later be arrested as well.

January 24, 1994, California: Teenager Richard Joseph Campos is charged as an adult with 12 felony counts related to a series of racially motivated firebombings in 1993. The charges include an attempt to murder a Sacramento city councilman by bombing his bedroom, as well as firebombings of an NAACP office, the office of the Japanese American Citizens League, a synagogue, and a state anti-discrimination office. An anonymous caller claimed responsibility in the name of the 'Aryan Liberation Front.'

February 10, 1994, California, Washington: Two members of the World Church of the Creator plead guilty to bombing an NAACP office and a gay bar in Washington state. Jeremiah Gordon Knesal and Wayne Paul Wooten had already pled guilty on explosives and weapons charges. Each face up to ten years in prison for these charges, but also still face other related, state charges (see January 21).

March 31, 1994, Arizona: Michael Anthony Bloom is jailed for violating the terms of his probation by communicating with known criminals and having access to guns. Bloom, a skinhead, pled guilty in 1990 to conspiracy to commit arson and misconduct involving weapons as part of a plot to bomb 37 buildings owned by minorities.

May 26, 1994, Connecticut: Klan Grand Dragon William Dodge pleads guilty to possessing a pipe bomb. Dodge was one of five Klan members arrested earlier this year on weapons and explosives charges.

May 29, 1994, California: In Huntington Beach, police arrest two skinheads caught with drugs, weapons, a homemade bomb and thousands of dollars worth of stolen property. Arrested on various charges are John Francisco Montiel and a juvenile.

June 14, 1994, West Virginia, Pennsylvania: Keith Brian McCullough, a fugitive from Pittsburgh, shoots himself in the head after police pull over the vehicle he was riding in, injuring himself critically. In the vehicle, McCullough had a live grenade, various bomb-making chemicals, and literature from Aryan Nations, among other items. McCullough had an extensive criminal history. He will die on June 17.

July 28, 1994, Connecticut: Klan leader William Dodge is sentenced to slightly over five years in prison for possessing a pipe bomb (see above).

August 29, 1994, California: Sacramento resident Richard Campos is convicted on five felony counts of possessing and igniting an explosive device, relating to two racially motivated firebombings, but the jury deadlocks on seven counts related to three other firebombings and a mistrial is declared on those counts. Campos firebombed the home of a Chinese-American and the offices of the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing. The jurors could not decide if he was also responsible for firebombings at three other places.

September 13, 1994, Illinois: White supremacist Randall Scott Anderson pleads guilty to civil rights conspiracy charges stemming from the bombing of a roller rink frequented by blacks, as well as vandalism of a synagogue in 1992.

September 28, 1994, Washington: Tacoma resident Wayne Paul Wooten, Jr., is sentenced to nearly five years in prison for helping to bomb a Seattle gay bar in 1993, as well as for other explosives and weapons charges. Wooten, a member of the World Church of the Creator, pled guilty in February. Also arrested at the time was Jeremiah Gordon Knesal and Mark Kowalski. Kowalski was sentenced in January to nearly 12 years in prison for a bombing of an NAACP office, while Knesal was sentenced to six and one-half years in prison.

December 13, 1994, Illinois: Skinhead Randall Scott Anderson, who threw a pipe bomb into a roller rink frequented by blacks in 1992, is sentenced to nine years in prison. Two other accomplices, both juveniles who cooperated with authorities, are sentenced to a few months in jail.

December 14, 1994, California: In Sacramento, white supremacist Richard Campos is convicted on all counts, including attempted murder, for a series of firebombings against minority targets. A previous trial had resulted in jury deadlock on the most serious charges. Campos can receive up to eighteen years in prison.

March 30, 1995, Nevada: A bomb explodes outside the Carson City office of the U.S. Forest Service, while a second bomb explodes at a Humboldt National Forest campground on the other side of the state. Three days later, the headquarters office for the Toiyabe National Forest is closed after officials receive a bomb threat.

April 13, 1995, Florida: A bomb explodes in Jacksonville, Florida, in front of a tax collector's office but next to an abortion clinic; authorities are not sure which building was the target of the bombing.

February 20, Georgia: Three Georgia militia members receive stiff sentences for their roles in a conspiracy to build pipe bombs for use against the federal government. Bob Starr is given 8 years, one month; while James McCranie and Troy Spain are sentenced to six ½ years in prison each.

March 13, Washington, Idaho: FBI agents arrest a fourth suspect, Brian Ratigan, in the Spokane bombings, about the same time as the prosecution rests in the trial of three other suspects.

March 13, Oklahoma: Former Tulsa opera singer Carol Elizabeth Howe is indicted in Federal court in Tulsa, accused of willfully making a bomb threat, possession of a non-registered destructive device and conspiracy. James Dodson Viefhous, already in custody, is also indicted. The two are founders and members of the National Socialist Alliance of Oklahoma, as well as part of the Aryan Intelligence Network. They left a message on this phone network that bombs would be detonated in 15 US cities unless action was taken by December 15 by "white warriors" against the government of the U.S.

March 19, Arizona: Six members of the Arizona Viper Militia are sentenced to jail terms for conspiracy to make bombs. The longest sentence is nine years. All had pled guilty. The number eventually increases to 10 who plead guilty. Two do not and will go to trial.

March 30, Michigan: Kalamazoo, Michigan, militia member Brendon Blasz is arrested and indicted on suspicion of making pipe bombs and other illegal explosives. Blasz and his "small militia band" planned to bomb the federal building in Battle Creek, an IRS building, a television station and federal armies, according to an affidavit by an informant. The Michigan Militia claims to have expelled them in 1995.

April 2, Washington, Idaho: The jury hearing Spokane bank bandits case convicts the three defendants on illegal weapons charges and stolen vehicle charges, but deadlocks on the more serious bank robbery and bombing charges when a sole jury member, sympathetic to the right-wing extremists, refuses to convict.

April 23, Texas: The FBI arrests three men and one woman for planning a bomb attack on a gas refinery northwest of Fort Worth. The planned bombing was to divert attention from an armored car robbery that would finance their extremist activities. The suspects have Klan ties.

April 23, California: White supremacist Todd Vanbiber of Winter Park is injured while making a pipe bomb; the weapon blows up in his face. Investigating authorities find materials linking Vanbiber to the neo-Nazi National Alliance, as well as 14 unexploded pipe bombs.

May 1, New York: Bronx-area extremist blows his hand off in his apartment booby-trapped with homemade bombs. The man, John Saperstein, an unemployed construction worker, had at least five bombs in his apartment. Neighbors indicated that Saperstein talked a lot about the "Patriots of America" and the militia.

May 1, Colorado: Federal agents arrest Colorado militia leader Ron Cole (the "Colorado First Light Infantry") and two other militia members on weapons charges in the Denver suburb of Aurora, Colorado. Authorities seize weapons and explosives materials. Ron Cole, who claims to be a militant Branch Davidian, has been one of the more vocal militia leaders in recent months. Police find six fully automatic AK-47 rifles, three land mines, 75 pounds of rocket fuel, a pipe bomb, and much ammunition.

May 2, Washington: Richard Frank Burton, who pled guilty to possessing pipe bombs and other charges in connection with the Washington militia/freemen bombmaking conspiracy, is sentenced to 46 months in prison.

May 3, Texas: Most of the remaining Republic of Texas members surrender to authorities. Richard McLaren, his wife Evelyn, and three followers (Richard Otto, Greg and Karen Paulson), walk out of their hideout after signing a "cease-fire" agreement with Texas Rangers. Two members, Richard Keys and Mike Matson, decided not to surrender and fled into the Davis Mountains. Authorities began a search with bloodhounds, helicopters, and troopers on horseback. Police find more than 60 pipe bombs at the "embassy."

May 17, Oregon: Portland, Oregon, area resident James Bell, active in militia and common law court groups, is arrested by the IRS for obstructing the IRS. Among other things, Bell devised a project called "Operation LocatIRS" to learn the home addresses of IRS employees in order to intimidate them. He is also suspected of having used a chemical called mercaptan in a March 16 stink-bombing of an IRS office. Bell is more well known for his Internet essay "Assassination Politics," which proposed a system of rewards for people who predict the deaths of government officials.

May 29, West Virginia: A "colonel" in the West Virginia Mountaineer Militia pleads guilty to making a bomb for other militia members who were plotting to bomb an FBI fingerprint facility. Edward Moore is one of seven defendants in the case; he faces up to ten years in prison.

June 2, Oklahoma, Colorado: In Denver, Colorado, Timothy McVeigh is convicted for his role in the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995. He is later given the death penalty.

June 12, West Virginia: The second of seven defendants, Jack Phillips, in the Mountaineer Militia case agrees to plead guilty to a charge of conspiracy to make bombs.

June 24, California: Todd Vanbiber, the Orange County, California, man who blew himself up while constructing a pipe bomb (see above), pleads guilty to two federal explosives violations. Vanbiber was a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.

October 14, Colorado, Kansas: Tom Newman pleads guilty to ten counts of possessing pipe bombs and his wife, Kimberly, pleads guilty to having knowledge of her husband's acts. The Wichita, Kansas, residents were part of a militia conspiracy to attack several U.S. military installations suspected of training UN troops.

October 16, Oklahoma: White supremacist James Viefhaus, Jr., receives a three year prison sentence on conspiracy and bomb-making charges in connection with a plot to bomb fifteen U.S. cities.

October 29, Washington: Verne Jay Merrell, leader of the white supremacists who committed armed robberies and bombings in the Spokane area in 1996, allegedly as Phineas Priests, receives a sentence of two consecutive life terms, plus an additional sixty-four years.

November 4, Washington: Two more of the white supremacists convicted on armed robbery and bomb charges in connection with alleged Phineas Priest actions receive life sentence terms. Charles Barbee and Robert Berry each receive two consecutive life terms.

December 2, Washington: Brian Ratigan receives a sentence of 55 years for his role in the bombing and robbery spree by a group of white supremacists alleged to be Phineas Priests. Three other men received multiple life sentences earlier; the investigation is not yet closed.

December 12, Washington: Common law court activist James Dalton Bell, who wrote an Internet essay advocating rewarding people who assassinated government officials, receives a sentence of four months in jail and a multi-year probation for obstructing the Internal Revenue Service and using false Social Security numbers. He pled guilty in July, admitting that he had collected the names and home addresses of IRS employees and planted a stink bomb at an IRS office.

December 23, Colorado, Oklahoma: In a controversial decision, a jury convicts Oklahoma City bombing suspect Terry Nichols of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, but finds him not guilty of the actual use of a weapon of mass destruction, or destruction by explosive. The jury also opts for manslaughter convictions rather than second-degree murder convictions relating to the death of eight federal agents.

January 8, 1998, California: Jeffrey Allen Campbell and Justin Bertone, two alleged members of the white supremacist White Criminals on Dope are arrested on suspicion of having been behind the planting of 10 fake bombs in Hollywood and the San Fernando Valley, targeting minority business owners. They are reportedly linked with "Peckerwood" skinhead gangs in southern California.

January 8, 1998, Nevada: Robert Storms, a Virginia City bartender and militia member, is convicted of selling illegal guns but acquitted of six counts of making and selling pipe bombs. Robert, his brother Kevin (a reserve deputy in Storey County), and former sheriff's deputy Griffith Evan Rausch, Jr., had been arrested on various weapons and bomb-making charges. Kevin Storms had previously pleaded guilty to machine guns and pipe bomb charges.

January 23, 1998, Texas: Three Ku Klux Klan members receive lengthy sentences for their role in a 1997 conspiracy to bomb a natural gas processing plant in north Texas to act as a diversion for an armored car robbery. Edward Taylor, Jr., receives 21 years and 10 months in prison and Shawn Dee Adams receives 14 years in prison. Carl Waskom, who pled guilty to conspiracy, receives a sentence of nine years and two months. A fourth defendant, Catherine Adams, awaits sentencing.

January 29, 1998, Texas: Ku Klux Klan member Catherine Dee Adams receives a sentence of 15 years for her role in a plot to bomb a natural gas processing plant (see above) in 1997.

January 29, 1998, Alabama: The New Woman All Women Clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, which performs abortions, is bombed, resulting in the death of a police off icer and the severe wounding of a clinic worker. The prime suspect, Eric Rudolph, becomes a much sought-after fugitive. Rudolph is alleged to be a white supr emacist with connections to the militia group Northpoint Tactical Teams. Despite a massive search, law enforcement authorities cannot locate Rudolph.

February 2, 1998, West Virginia: West Virginia "Mountaineer Militia" member James Rogers is sentenced to a year in prison for his role in a plot to bomb an FBI fingerprinting facility in Clarksburg, West Virginia. The former firefighter who provided copies of facility blueprints to other militia members is the first person sentenced under the 1994 anti-terrorism law. Prosecutors had recommended he serve the full ten years possible, but the judge said Rogers had had an exemplary record as a public servant before his arrest.

February 10, 1998, Wisconsin: White supremacist and militia member Merlon Lingenfelter is sentenced to two years and three months for possessing two machine guns. As part of a plea bargain, federal authorities agreed to dismiss a pipe bomb possession count. Lingenfelter was part of an unnamed militia group led by Bradley Glover which plotted to attack U.S. military bases suspected of training UN troops.

February 24, 1998, Illinois: Former Ku Klux Klan leader Dennis Michael McGiffen is one of three men charged with conspiracy to receive and possess machine guns and destructive devices as part of a wide-ranging plot to bomb public buildings across the country, rob banks, poison water supplies, and even to kill a federal judge and other people. Also charged are Wallace Scott Weicherding, a former prison guard, and Ralph P. Bock. McGiffen had quit the clan several years ago because it was not radical enough to suit him. McGiffen called his group "The New Order," after a 1980s white supremacist group which made headlines for its crimes of armed robbery, counterfeiting and murder.

March 7, 1998, Illinois: Self-proclaimed Aryan Nations member Donald Young, a Springfield, Illinois, resident, is arrested after a car chase in connection with a series of telephone bomb threats. Police find two explosive devices in his car and one on a convenience store parking lot; Young admits to planting a bomb at Casey's General Store. He is charged with possessing incendiary devices, fleeing from an officer and criminal damages to property; additional charges are possible.

March 14, 1998, Idaho: White supremacist Mathew Bracken of Sandpoint, Idaho, is arrested in western Washington while sleeping in a stolen car. He is jailed on suspicion of auto theft, possessing explosives and being a felon in possession of a loaded firearm. He had recently escaped from a Bonner County jail. He has an extensive criminal history, but police are not sure what he was planning to do with the bomb-making materials they found in the car.

March 16, 1998, Illinois, Ohio: Daniel Rick becomes the fifth person arrested in connection with a plot by the white supremacist group "The New Order" to carry out a campaign of armed robberies, assassinations, bombings and other crimes. He is held on felony charges of illegally possessing a machine gun and related weapons charges.

April 22, 1998, California: Two alleged white supremacists plead no contest to drug charges and hate crimes involving bomb threats and a shooting. Jeffrey Allen Campbell agrees to a 15 year prison sentence and Justin Nicholas Bertone to a seven year sentence. The two planted fake bombs in southern California in 1997 and made other bomb threats. The two are allegedly part of a white supremacist gang called White Criminals on Dope.

April 27, 1998, Illinois: Dennis McGiffen, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan in southern Illinois, pleads guilty to federal firearms charges in an agreement in which the U.S. government stated that it would file no more charges "for crimes now known to the government." McGiffen was alleged to have been involved in a white supremacist group called the New Order that plotted to commit bombings, robberies and other acts of terror.

May 7, 1998, Florida: Three Florida white supremacists, Brian Pickett, Christopher Norris, and Deena Wanzie, are charged with various conspiracy, bank robbery, explosives and weapons charges in connection with a plot to set bombs as diversions while they committed bank robberies. The plot was exposed when a fourth member, Todd Vanbiber, injured himself when one of his bombs exploded in 1997. Two members of the group were also members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. Pickett and Vanbiber are also accused of having robbed a Danbury bank in February 1997.

May 12, 1998, Michigan: Traverse City police sergeant Dennis Finch is murdered as he tries to calm down an agitated man waving an assault rifle and a pistol, claiming that Traverse City was the capital of the New World Order. After John Charles Clark kills Finch, he barricades himself in his home with more than 100 guns, grenades and pipe bombs. After a nine hour standoff he is arrested after being shot. Clark also reportedly had a fallout shelter in his basement.

May 14, 1998, Washington: Police seize an arsenal of more than 70 pipe bombs, as well as machine guns and hand grenades, from Gregory McCrea, a suspected child rapist. McCrea is suspected of having ties to militia or other extremist groups.

May 14, 1998, California: Jeffrey Allen Campbell is sentenced to 15 years and Justin Nicholas Bertone to seven years in prison for their role in planting fake bombs and other crimes to intimidate minorities (see above).

May 15, 1998, Illinois: Karl Schave, associated with members of the white supremacist group "The New Order," pleads guilty to possessing a bomb made of plastic explosives. Schave had agreed to supply other members with explosives, equipment and a safe house.

May 29, 1998, Illinois: Daniel Rick pleads guilty to three charges involving selling a machine gun to members of "the New Order," which allegedly planned a campaign of assassinations, robberies and bombings. Rick is the fourth member to plead guilty in connection with the group; a fifth entered a not guilty plea and will face trial.

May 29, 1998, Colorado, Utah: Three survivalists with ties to militia and patriot groups murder a Cortez, Colorado, police officer who discovered their attempt to steal a water truck. This murder--as well as subsequent shootings during their attempt to escape and the discovery of pipe bombs among their belongings--sparks a huge manhunt in remote southeastern Utah for the fugitives. One suspect, Robert Mason, soon kills himself as searchers close in on his location. However, the other two, Alan Pilon and James McVean, elude hundreds of searching law enforcement officers.

June 5, 1998, Colorado: Convicted Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols receives a life sentence for his role in the terrorist attack.

June 10, 1998, Mississippi: Deavours Nix, a 72 year old former Ku Klux Klan member convicted of a 1966 firebombing attack, is sent to prison. Two weeks earlier he had claimed to be too ill to be jailed for the attack, which killed one person. However, he was since spotted playing golf at a golf course.

June 10, 1998, Michigan: Redford Township resident Mark Gaydos is killed in a shootout with township police after a traffic stop confrontation. Gaydos was pulled over for not having a driver's license and told he would be arrested. He fled on foot and fired at police officers pursuing him, injuring one; they returned fire and killed him. Following the incident, police search his parents' home (where he lived) and discover an arsenal of guns, bullet-proof vests, 35,000 rounds of ammunition, a pipe bomb, an upside down flag with the words "Remember Waco" printed on it and other assorted paraphernalia. Also discovered during the search was evidence that suggested Gaydos had been the person who had harassed a state representative's reelection campaign in 1996, shooting up the official's campaign signs and placing them outside his campaign headquarters, as well as making harassing phone calls. The representative had refused to back a concealed carry law.

July 2, 1998, Alabama: A camouflaged gun man shoots at an armored car in West Blocton, Alabama, then sets off tear gas outside a bank. Authorities following the man into nearby woods discover the area is booby-trapped with four pipe bombs; they suspect the man was trying to lure authorities into the booby-trapped area. The armored car company has had three previous attacks on its cars since 1992, none solved. Local authorities suspect either a militia group or someon e with a vendetta against the armored car company. None of the cars were robbed.

July 7, 1998, Washington: White supremacists Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee are indicted for an April 1996 pipe bombing of the Spokane City Hall, as part of their attempt to inspire a white revolution and establish an Aryan People's Republic. The indictment, expanded from an earlier one, now lists 57 separate crimes, including five murders. Faron Lovelace, on death row in Idaho, is an unindicted member of the conspiracy. Kirby Kehoe, father of Chevie, is also in the indictment. He is in prison on weapons charges. Another Kehoe son, Cheyne, and Kirby Kehoe's wife, Gloria, have cooperated with federal agents.

August 2, 1998, Indiana: A bomb-laden pickup truck is driven into the basement of a courthouse in Tippecanoe County, Indiana, but luckily does not explode. Authorities do not know who committed the bombing attempt, but suspect terrorism as a possible motive.

August 5, 1998, South Carolina: Horace King, Grand Dragon of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in South Carolina apologizes for the 1995 burning of a black church (for which four Klansmen were jailed). The church had sued and in July won a judgement against King (for inciting his Klansmen to burn the church) of $15 million, and against Klan groups for an additional $23 million. King's apology is an attempt to convince the congregation not to collect damages against him.

August 11, 1998, Kentucky: White supremacist Daniel Koplitz pleads guilty to a single weapons charge (involving pipe bomb components) as part of a plea bargain in which he would avoid trial on charges of sending threats through the mail, conspiracy to violate people's civil rights and possession of an unregistered destructive device. He faces up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. He and three other men were members of a white supremacist group called the White Aryan Legion, which shot at buildings and sent threatening letters to mixed-race couples.

August 18, 1998, Arizona: Carl Edward Johnson is arrested by the IRS on charges of threatening federal officials. Johnson was discovered to be the "brains" behind an Internet webpage soliciting the assassination of four federal officials. Johnson is also wanted by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in connection with an attempted courthouse bombing. He holds dual citizenship. The webpage was an adaptation of a concept proposed by antigovernment extremist James Dalton Bell, in which people would be rewarded for killing public officials. Johnson claims that he is mentally ill.

August 25, 1998, Washington: Gregory L. McCrea is indicted on a federal firearms charge, being a felon in possession of a handgun, but is expected eventually to be charged with possessing machine guns, hand grenades, pipe bombs and nails dipped in a deadly chemical. State prosecutors, in a separate criminal case, seek to convict him on child rape charges. Other federal agencies are considering domestic terrorism and bomb-making charges (as well as child pornography charges). Investigators who searched his house and property in May found one of the largest seizures of illegal firearms and pipe bombs ever made in the region, taking days to haul away and dispose. Investigators say that he is a militia sympathizer and survivalist, but not a member of any particular group. The state charges alone can send him to jail for up to 598 months.

August 31, 1998, Illinois: Wallace Weicherding is convicted in federal court in East St. Louis of conspiracy to possess and make illegal firearms and destructive devices, as well as for possession of a machine gun. Weicherding is one of five members of a white supremacist group called the "New Order" arrested in connection with planned assassinations, bombings, and armed robberies. Four other men have pled guilty.

September 8, 1998, Colorado, Oklahoma: The Tenth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upholds the conviction and death sentence of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, convicted in 1997 on eleven counts related to the April 19, 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.

September 9, 1998, North Carolina: E. H. Hennis, a 75-year-old former Klan leader and resident of Guilford County, is jailed on contempt of court charges relating to his refusal to move 20 abandoned mobile homes from his property in a zoning dispute. Hennis had been creating a considerable stir in the county for his threatening words in connection with the confrontation. Hennis has three tons of ammonium nitrate on his farm and has made threats about making fertilizer bombs. The contempt charge comes from Hennis' refusal to show up for a court hearing regarding the dispute. Law enforcement officials later execute a search warrant on the property to find the ammonium nitrate, originally stored in a shed, but discover it has been been hidden or removed by friends of Hennis. They do discover dummy booby traps and effigies of his "enemies."

September 11, 1998, Illinois: Dennis McGiffen, head of the white supremacist group "The New Order" receives a seven year sentence on federal firearms charges in connection with his group's plans to commit assassinations, bombings and robberies (see above).

September 30, 1998, Oklahoma: Hoppy Heidelberg, a Blanchard horse breeder and conspiracy theorist who in 1996 was removed from the federal grand jury which indicted Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, on grounds that he spoke to a writer for a right-wing magazine about the case, announces he will create his own "citizen's grand jury" to meet and investigate the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. The Oklahoma Attorney General's office warns Heidelberg to be aware of a new law making it a felony to act falsely in asserting authority of law. "Citizen's grand juries" were sometimes formed by Posse Comitatus groups back in the 1980s.

October 2, 1998, Illinois, Ohio: Daniel Rick of Leesburg, Ohio, is sentenced to 2 ½ years in prison for selling a machine gun to a white supremacist group called the New Order, a group that plotted to commit bombings, bank robberies and terrorist acts to start a racial war.

October 2, 1998, North Carolina: Former Klan member E. H. Hennis is arrested for bringing a fake bomb to a county commission meeting and threatening commissioners that they could lose body parts in car explosions. Hennis is charged with causing a bomb hoax and a misdemeanor charge of communicating threats. Hennis, a retired demolitions engineer, had been waging a months-long battle with local authorities over zoning disputes, and had made references to blowing up buildings with the three tons of ammonium nitrate stored at his farm near Greensboro.

October 14, 1998, North Carolina, Georgia: Federal authorities file a criminal complaint against fugitive Eric Rudolph, suspected of having bombed a Birmingh am, Alabama, abortion clinic in January 1998, accusing him of also having committed the 1996 Olympic Centennial Park bombing and the 1997 bombings of an abor tion clinic and a lesbian bar, all in Atlanta, Georgia. Rudolph is believed to be hiding in his home state of North Carolina.

October 29, 1998, Florida: White supremacist Brian Donald Pickett pleads guilty to charges that he conspired to rob two Orlando banks and set off pipe bombs as diversions. Pickett, as well as two others, were implicated by the fourth member of their group, Todd Vanbiber, who had been previously arrested and convicted. Pickett and Vanbiber were members of the Neo-Nazi group The National Alliance; according to Vanbiber, they had previously committed three bank robberies in Tampa and Connecticut, then donated some of their takings to National Alliance chief William Pierce, author of the notorious novel, "The Turner Diaries."

November 5, 1998, Massachusetts: Abraham Forish of Easthampton, Massachusetts, is arrested after police respond to a report of a man firing automatic guns in his yard. Authorities discover a stockpile of weapons and ammunition, including a pipe bomb and a machine gun, and arrest him on bomb possession charges. Based on comments Forish made about Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas, police conclude that he belongs to one or another extremist movements.

November 13, 1998, North Carolina: An unknown shooter fires multiple shots at the North Carolina headquarters for law enforcement officials searching for fugitive suspected bomber Eric Rudolph. The shots wound one agent slightly.

November 20, 1998, Florida: A Florida jury finds white supremacist Christopher Norris guilty on numerous charges relating to a plot to rob banks with pipe bombs for diversions. Norris is convicted of conspiring to rob a bank, making pipe bombs, possessing pipe bombs and conspiring to use and carry firearms during a planned robbery, charges that could send him to prison for life (see earlier entry for more details).

November 23, 1998, Illinois: Ralph Bock, member of a white supremacist group called The New Order which plotted a series of bombings and assassinations, receives a two-year sentence on weapons charges for his minor role in the plot.

December 1, 1998, Idaho: Federal and local police begin an investigation into a cross burning and fire bombing at the home of Lori Graves, an activist who protested against an Aryan Nations march in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, earlier in the year. Anyone convicted of the crime could face life in prison.

December 17, 1998, California: Authorities arresting Marc MacCleod, a felon from Sacramento wanted for a parole violation, discover two assault weapons and three pipe bombs in his Jeep. MacCleod is a member of a white supremacist gang known as the "Sacramento Skins."

December 30, 1998, Oklahoma: The Oklahoma County Grand Jury, investigating the Oklahoma City federal building bombing of April 19, 1995, for signs of a wider conspiracy than that involving McVeigh and Nichols, releases its report. Disappointing conspiracy buffs and anti-government activists, the report finds little evidence of a broader conspiracy.

January 10, 1999, Oklahoma: A sealed indictment from the Oklahoma grand jury investigating the April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City bombing is opened. The grand jury was created in order to explore the possibility that individuals other than Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were involved in the bombing. However, the single indictment is for David Hoffman, a right-wing journalist and conspiracy theorist, on jury tampering charges. Hoffman attempted to send copies of his book on the bombing, and explanatory material, to influence the grand jurors.

January 20, 1999, Maryland, Washington, D.C.: Walter Wilson Johnson, of Capitol Heights, Maryland, is arrested during the impeachment trial of President William Clinton by Capitol Police when an x-ray search of his bag reveals an 18-inch knife and two M-60 firecracker-like devices. Johnson's bag also reveals survivalist materials, a Soldier of Fortune magazine, and an article on the Oklahoma City bombing. Johnson is jailed without bond on charges of carrying a dangerous weapon and illegal explosives.

March 1, 1999, Arkansas: The trial of Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee on racketeering charges related to murders and robberies committed in an attempt to set up an Aryan People's Republic begins in Little Rock, Arkansas. The complicated case, which already has seen countless hearings and related trials, is one of the most important extremist-related cases since the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. The trial is expected to take months.

March 13, 1999, North Carolina: An abortion clinic in Asheville, North Carolina, is bombed, creating speculation that extremist fugitive and alleged abortion clinic bomber Eric Rudolph, believed to be in hiding in North Carolina, may have committed the crime. Authorities are initially skeptical.

March 24, 1999, New Mexico: An environmental group called the Forest Guardians receives a threatening letter from a group identifying itself as the 'Minutemen' just days after a pipe bomb was left at their office. The group had also been targeted for violence in 1998, when unknown assailants fired a shotgun at the offices.

April 14, Ohio, Kentucky: White supremacist Kale Kelly is arrested in southwest Ohio and charged with illegal possession of firearms as a convicted felon. The Aryan Nations member is suspected of having been involved in some sort of bomb plot, causing federal authorities to search the property of a Klan leader in Kentucky and to subpoena numerous members to appear before a grand jury.

May 4, 1999, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Washington, Idaho, Ohio: White supremacists Chevie Kehoe and Daniel Lee are convicted on racketeering, conspiracy and three murder charges, relating to their attempts to overthrow the federal government and set up an Aryan People's Republic in the Pacific Northwest. Their crimes included a bombing in Spokane, Washington, the murder of an Arkansas gun dealer, his wife, and their eight-year-old daughter in 1996, and two murders in Idaho. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne Kehoe, was also involved, but turned himself in and cooperated with authorities. He is serving a lengthy prison sentence.

May 7, 1999, Ohio: Aryan Nations member Kale Kelly pleads guilty to illegal possessions of firearms as a convicted felon, but backs out of a written plea agreement to cooperate with federal authorities investigating a possible bomb or assassination plot. He faces up to ten years in prison.

May 13, 1999, Colorado: Following a high-speed chase, police arrest anti-government extremist Jack Modig after authorities spotted him near the Denver-area Colorado Islamic Center. Modig had a numerous weapons and bomb-making materials in the car, leading police to suspect he was planning to destroy the Center. Modig is an active member of the common law court movement in Colorado. He is charged with possession of explosive devices, carrying concealed weapons, eluding a police vehicle and three counts of attempted vehicular assault.

May 20, 1999, Michigan: North American Militia member Kenneth Carter is sentenced to five years in prison for his role in a bombing plot. Carter had pled guilty in 1998 to conspiracy charged. His sentence is considered lenient because he cooperated with the government following his arrest.

June 10, 1999, Alabama: A plumber from Foley, Alabama, is arrested following his purchase of grenades from an undercover ATF agent. Chris Scott Gilliam, charged with possessing an unregistered firearm, told the agent he wanted to send mail bombs to Washington, D.C. Gilliam is a member of the neo-Nazi group The National Alliance.

July 8, 1999, Ohio: Sheriff's deputies from Geauga County arrest Jay Todd Webb, a white supremacist who had firebombed a school in 1992, on parole violations. Deputies find three firearms in his trailer and charge him with three felony counts of illegal possession of a firearm.

July 12, 1999, Washington: Gregory L. McCrea, a white supremacist whom authorities discovered upon his arrest had accumulated an incredibly large arsenal of machine guns, grenades, and pipe bombs, pleads guilty to firearms and child pornography charges. McCrea admitted to having had sexual conduct with as many as 1,000 children during his lifetime. The ten firearms charges and eleven child pornography charges will be added to a dozen state charges, including eleven counts of child rape, to which McCrea had already pled guilty. Under the plea bargain, he faces at least 25 years in prison.

July 19, 1999, Ohio: Daniel Justice, described by a Cincinnati newspaper as a 'survivalist,' is charged with terroristic threatening and wanton endangerment, after authorities discover a plan to blow up the Pendleton County courthouse. An informant told police that Justice, facing a court hearing for wanton endangerment after ramming a vehicle, planned to attack the courthouse and kill a judge. Authorities arrested Justice and found two pipe bombs in his sports utility vehicle. He is later also charged with criminal possession of a destructive device. Authorities claim that Justice had more than two pipe bombs, but others were hidden or destroyed by other individuals.

July 20, 1999, Arizona: A Tucson teenager is put under police guard at a hospital after blowing fingers off of his left hand when accidentally setting a bomb off in his home. Investigators found white supremacist literature and swastikas in his house. He is charged with five counts of endangerment and one count of manufacturing explosive devices.

August 30, 1999, California: The house of Santa Clara County Superior Court Judge Jack Komar is firebombed, burning his porch. Three suspects, a 19-year-old, Victor Quintin Podbreger, and two 17-year-olds are arrested after one calls in to report the attack, claiming to be white supremacists. The alleged bombers apparently thought that Komar was Jewish. Podbreger is charged with possession of an incendiary device, manufacturing of an incendiary device, terrorism using an incendiary device against a person, attempted arson, and vandalism, with hate crime enhancements on the latter two counts. The juveniles were jailed on one count of vandalism each with hate crime enhancements, and conspiracy to commit arson.

August 31, 1999, Florida: A bomb explodes in a restroom in a Florida A&M University building, blowing a whole in the wall. In a call to a television station before the bomb goes off, a person claims responsibility, saying he wants to kill blacks. Florida A&M is that state's only historically black state university.

September 17, 1999, Nevada, Louisiana: Frank D. Alexander pleads guilty to having mailed bombs from Morgan, Louisiana, his home, to President William Clinton; to the Las Vegas office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms; and to San Antonio evangelist John Hagee. Two bombs exploded while in the care of the Postal Service, but no one was injured. A third was recovered at a Greyhound bus terminal. Alexander was charged with attempted murder, mailing injurious articles and use of a firearm in a crime of violence. Alexander told investigators he admired Timothy McVeigh and Theodore Kaczynski.

October 1, 1999, Florida: Lawrence Michael Lombardi of Tallahassee, Florida, is arrested on suspicion of having committed two bombings at the historically black Florida A&M University. Lombardi, who admits to FBI agents that he was the one who called in messages about the bombing filled with racial slurs, is arrested after police are tipped off by callers who recognized Lombardi buying pipes on a hardware store surveillance tape. Lombardi pleads not guilty to two charges of making an unregistered weapon; prosecutors expect to file additional charges against him.

October 6, 1999, Oklahoma, Arizona: Michael Fortier, an associate of Timothy McVeigh, is sentenced to twelve years in prison for not informing authorities of the plans to bomb the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Fortier cooperated with authorities after being arrested following the April 19, 1995 bombing.

November 2, 1999, Connecticut: In Norfolk, Connecticut, an attempt to firebomb the Congregation Beth El synagogue is prevented when someone spotted the two men attempting the deed. Two Molotov cocktails are recovered, but police are unable to make any arrests.

November 2, 1999, Arizona: In Kingman, Arizona, Wayne Eugene Brashear is arrested for possession of chemicals and equipment for manufacturing methamphetamine, and possession of weapons in a drug offense. Police searching the extremist's home as part of an ongoing drug investigation discovered two and a half pounds of C-4 explosive, a hand grenade, and other bomb-making materials, as well as a number of guns.

November 4, 1999, North Carolina: Robert David Guffey and son Anthony Ray Guffey, both of Rutherford County, are arrested after police find homemade pipe bombs, stolen property, and drugs while searching their house. Police also find a collection of Ku Klux Klan material.

December 6, 1999, Nevada: Four white supremacists are arrested in Reno, and warrants issued for two others, following a firebombing of a Jewish synagogue. Arrested are Christopher Hampton, Scott Hudson, Joshua Kudlacek and an unnamed juvenile woman. Warrants are also out for Daniel McIntosh and Carl DeAmicus. The suspects range in age from 17 to 39. The synagogue, Temple Emanu El, had been attacked twice before in 1999, although in apparently unrelated incidents.

December 8, 1999, Nevada, California: White supremacists Daniel McIntosh and Carl DeAmicis are arrested near Sacramento. They are suspected of having been among six people who firebombed a Jewish synagogue in Reno, Nevada (see above).

December 31, 1999, California: Sacramento County sheriff's deputies arrest two white supremacists following the discovery of a cache of pipe bombs. Arrested are Gary Drake and Brian Hogan. Police responding to a nuisance call found thirteen pipe bombs in the home of Drake's father. Nearly ten years ago, both men were convicted in a firebombing of a high school football stadium and a building across the street from it. Drake is reportedly a member of the Peckerwoods, a white supremacist group with prison gang ties, while Hogan is suspected of being a follower of the group.

January 3, 2000, Tennessee: Nashville tax protester Rodney Lynn Randolph receives a four-year prison sentence on weapons charges. Randolph, whose house was foreclosed on in 1998 when he stopped paying on his bank loans, resisted an order to vacate the premises. A trespassing charge was filed against him; while searching his home, police found an arsenal of weapons that included a hand grenade, bomb-making materials, and automatic weapons parts, as well as blueprints for silencers, 200,000 rounds of ammunition, and a .50-caliber "anti-tank" weapon. Randolph claimed he was not subject to U.S. laws, but eventually pled guilty.

January 5, 2000, North Carolina: Retired demolitions expert and Ku Klux Klan leader E. H. Hennis receives a suspended sentence of eight to ten months and supervised probation for three years following his conviction on charges of using a fake bomb in a hoax. Hennis, who has had a long record of confrontations with authorities, appeared at an October 1998 Guilford County commissioners meeting with a fake bomb and told commissioners that: ''My way of getting you, you won't be carried off in stretchers. And I'm not making a threat, I'm just telling you facts. Your body parts can be picked up and put in a body bag.''

January 15, 2000, Alabama: White supremacist Chris Scott Gilliam is sentenced to ten years in prison without parole. Gilliam had earlier pled guilty to federal firearms charges stemming from the purchase of ten hand grenades. Following his arrest, authorities turned up a rifle with a silencer, bomb-making instructions, and National Alliance and other white supremacist literature. Supposedly Gilliam wanted to send the grenades as mail bombs to unspecified targets in Washington, D.C.

February 9, 2000, Georgia: A Cartersville, Georgia, couple, Walter and Barbara Andersen, and their son Troy are arrested on federal charges of possession of narcotics with intent to distribute, possession of firearms during the commission of a drug crime, and possession of unregistered silencers. Following the interception of a shipment of steroids to their house, officers searched the residence and found drugs, a large number of weapons and silencers, bomb-making materials, and white supremacist literature.

March 2, 2000, North Carolina: Eddie Dewayne Carringer is arrested and charged with assault and attempted murder of a federal officer in the performance of his duties. Carringer allegedly in November 1998 fired on the Southeast Bomb Task Force command post in Andrews, North Carolina, that was searching for suspected bomber Eric Rudolph. Later indicted on the same charges is Wayne Henry Burchfield.

March 13, 2000, Nevada: A 17-year-old girl is sentenced to the Nevada juvenile correctional facility after pleading guilty to first-degree arson, manufacturing an explosive device, and using an explosive device to damage property, in connection with a November 1998 firebombing of a synagogue in Reno. Six others-five men and another female teen-have also been arrested.

March 17, 2000, California, Nevada, Idaho: Three anti-government activists are arrested in Death Valley, California, following a standoff and gunfight. Arre sted are Lloyd Burrus and Cheryl Maarteuse of Downey, Idaho, and Jeffrey Burns, of Emeryville, California. The incident began when a Nevada Highway Patrol o fficer stopped the three in their vehicle. The driver fired at the officer, then they fled. A Nye County, Nevada, sheriff's deputy tried to stop them, but was also fired upon. They then fired at a pursuing California Highway Patrol officer. Their vehicle got stuck in Death Valley National Park, so they left i t for a fortified bunker, from which they shot down a California Highway Patrol helicopter. A standoff ensued, but they surrendered just before midnight. S earching their vehicle, police find a variety of weapons and ammunition, as well as "reams of anti-government and anti-police literature." They face a varie ty of federal and state charges that include attempted murder of law enforcement officers.

March 22, 2000, Washington, D.C.: Anthony Premo is arrested at the Pentagon after claiming to be an Immigration and Naturalization Service agent at a traffic stop. Guns, black powder and books on booby traps are discovered in his car; police later search his hotel room and find more weapons, ammunition boxes, canisters of black powder, cannon fuse, fireworks, books about bombs and other items. When arrested, Premo was wearing a jacket bearing the emblem of the Hammerskins, the largest skinhead group in the United States. Ironically, Premo was going to begin work the next week as a Defense Protective Services police officer.

March 24, 2000, Nevada: An amended indictment is filed by a federal grand jury against five skinheads accused of attempting to firebomb a Reno synagogue. In addition to the bomb charges already filed against Scott Hudson, Christopher Hampton, Carl DeAmicis, Daniel McIntosh and Joshua Kudlacek, two more charges are added: conspiracy against the rights of citizens and damage to religious property.

March 30, 2000, New York: Police arrest Michael Sagginario after a search of his home in Queens turns up an assault rifle, silencers, ammunition, a bomb-making book, and a variety of white supremacist literature, including the "National Alliance Hand Book" and audio tapes of The Turner Diaries. Sagginario, a convicted felon, is charged with criminal weapons possession.

April 4, 2000, California: Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams are charged with arson, conspiracy to commit arson, destruction of religious property and use of fire to commit a felony in connection with the firebombing of an abortion clinic and arsons at three Sacramento synagogues in the summer of 1999. The white supremacist brothers had already been charged with killing a gay couple.

April 5, 2000, Oklahoma: John Lee Haney receives a sentence of 33 months in federal prison for unlawfully possessing machine guns that he had built in order to "test the constitutionality of gun laws." At his sentencing hearing, prosecutors bring forward testimony accusing him of having participated in a plot to bomb the Oklahoma City office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. During his trial, prosecutors had also alleged that he had made threats against federal agents and federal judges. Haney denied all such charges.

April 6, 2000, South Carolina: Jimmy Kris Crawford of Bishopville, South Carolina, is charged with criminal conspiracy and contributing to the delinquency of a minor for allegedly masterminding attacks on black churches, including a firebombing of an African Methodist Episcopal church. According to authorities, Crawford provided encouragement and materials for the attacks, which were conducted by teenagers, including Bryan Alan Carraway, 18, and a 15-year old minor. Allegedly Crawford was trying to start a Ku Klux Klan group to be called the South Carolina Ghost Riders.

April 18, 2000, Michigan: Curt Clark, a teenage member of a white supremacist group known as the Iron Cross in Flint, Michigan, pleads guilty in a plea bargain to one charge of bombmaking. He and several high school classmates built a bomb with instructions downloaded from the Internet and placed it in their school in August 1999, but the bomb failed to detonate. Also charged are John N. Dubuis and Jason Robert Lee Montney. As part of the agreement, Clark will testify against them.

April 26, 2000, Pennsylvania: Survivalist and anti-government activist Peter Kazlouski kills himself after setting his apartment on fire hours before he was scheduled to appear at an eviction hearing. Authorities find an arsenal of rifles, handguns, and small homemade bombs in the apartment.

June 9, 2000, North Carolina: Jacob Wayne Stull receives a four and a half year sentence after pleading guilty to charges relating to a 1998 incident in which he fired at least ten shots into the mobile home of a black family in a white neighborhood. Following the shooting, police found bomb-making materials, automatic weapons and Ku Klux Klan paraphernalia in his home.

June 23, 2000, Florida: White supremacist Lawrence Lombardi is convicted in Tallahassee, Florida, of two bombings in 1999 at Florida A&M University, a historically black university. Lombardi faces up to life in prison.

Sara, are you still with me?

Why do YOU support not doing anything about such people?

Bush stoped investigating such cases in 2001. Former FBI counter-Terrorism Special Field Agents quit in droves in disgust and went to the press when he did.

Your President and your entire Party supports these Terrorists.

Sara, put up or shut up. Show me the arrests and convictions under Bush.

Can you come up with even five? I doubt it.

EnderW
CALM DOWN ....you dont need to get your panties in a bunch over a conversation of which half of what you say doesnt even make any sense and the other half is just wrong...you go research your conspiracy theories and I wont address you as to insite you into another fit....hows that!

It wasn't Republicans I saw getting Anthrax.

The Targets were the outspoken targets of every AM Radio TERRORIST in this country.

The targets were the targets of EVERY FAUX NEWS TERRORIST in this country.

The Targets were the targets of every right wing TERRORIST claiming to be a preacher in this country.

Dr. James Dobsopn himself named every one of the targets personally in the weeks up to and including the week that they were attacked as being on his enemies list!!

Fallwell did the same!!!

Robertson did the same!!!

Every White Christian Conservative in America, my dear Sara, is a suspect in the ONLY biological attack against Americans ever carried out on US soil!!!

WHY DO YOU SUPPORT TERRORISTS, SARA?

Speaking of Mike Wiener (AKA Mike Savage)...

Is anyone here diabled? How about elderly?

In 1999, in a speech to the Terrorist Group (who advocates complete overthrow of the US Government, and establishment of a Theocracy), called "Sheriff's Against The New World Order", he stated that during a National Emergancy, such as the President declaring Marshall Law, that you should be taken to the edge of town, along with all of the other disabled people in your town, and executed by Law Enforcement Officers. All of the Law Enforcement Officers there agreed with his policy.

I think this gives disabled and alderly people the right to lethal force in self defense from Law Enforcement Officers under the stated scenario. Remember, EVERY CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN THE ROOM AGREED WITH MIKE, AND THE EVENT WAS ENTIRELY COMPOSED OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS!!

Or is it that they only meant this if Clinton declared a National Emergancy? I don't think so.

Why doesn't some disabled or elderly person cap a Smith and Wesson .500 in Mike's face, and send a message that GENOCIDAL CHRISTIANS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED IN AMERICA?

Again, justified from a self-defense against Terrorism standpoint.

AS OUR REPUBLICAN FRIENDS HERE TELL US, ANYTHING GOES AGAINST TERRORISTS AND THEIR LEADERS!

Mike Weiner is one of the top Republican leaders in America. He has followers in the tens of millions, and his EVERY broadcast is filled with the most hateful incitement of Terrorism against Americans you have ever heard. He's right up their with Coulter, in both intensity and audience numbers. Republicans EMBRACE this Terrorist leader.

Bush may have said: "Either you are with the Terrorists and religious extremists, or against them", but it was Jesus who said: "Ye shall know the tree by the fruit it bears".

We are sick and tired of people like you, Sara. Your putrid rotting fruit is smelling up the room.

Note on my last post: Mike does seem to be public health conscious. In his 1999 speech at the event for Christian Law Enforcement Officers, he made it clear why the disabled and elderly should be taken outside the edge of town and executed.

His reasoning was that their rotting bodies would, become a vector for disease if the act was done home to home. He was adamant about not using wood or other fuel to burn the bodies though.

He also went into detail on how to use blown up and overturned cars on the road to use as cover from which to shoot incoming "United Nations New World Order Troops", and gave an extensive talk about using IEDs along the road to kill such troops. (I've always wondered if the Iraqi resistance got the idea from Mike).

I believe it was at that event also, that Mike also said to massacre ALL of the Democrats in the town too, or was that another event on the same topic? I forget. It's sometimes hard to keep track of the enemies of the United States, like Mike...

Shall we talk about Rush Limbaugh next?

I understand that not a single Republican in America admits to listening to him. For a man with so many people who profess to not listen to his incitement of Terrorism against Americans, he sure gets paid a lot, and Arbitron still has him on top. Methinks the Republicans who deny him EMBRACE him! Go figure, when a Republican denies something, that means they are guilty as hell.

Coming soon!

To a Church near you!

The Christiams Gift of the Year!

"Left Behind: The Videogame"!!!

Teach your children good Christian values!

Teach them to go door to door in American cities massacring Liberals, Gays, Jews, and Blacks, and anyone else who won't "convert" at the point of a GUN!

Distribution is going to be NATIONWIDE! Contact your Preacher for more info!

Be the first kid on the block to learn how to GENOCIDE all enemies of the Republican Party!

--------