North Korea roils U.S. politics

Boy that tough talk really really works. If I remember correctly, Mr.Bush said at one point
I believe he said, "you have to take people at thier word"....Well I guess N. Korea took Mr. Bushes word about axis of evil and the actions of taking over Iraq.

Statement from Dems. "Given North Korea's abysmal proliferation record, reports of a successful test of a nuclear weapon should be a first priority concern of the World."

"The recently passed defence authorization bill requires President Bush to appoint a high level coordinator for North Korean policy. That appointment should be made immediately. Other nations whose policies on North Korea have also clearly failed, Such as China, must urgently develop new approaches as well"

So before JD AN John D start here a statement that sounds right to me.

So we build a theoretical missile shield and the enemy either delivers it via cargo ship or they overwhelm the system w/ decoys. Neo-cons are so foolish to think this would be a useful deterrent

I think we can all agree that it should be the policy of all Americans to support heavy UN sanctions against North Korea for this test. It's time for the UN to show it has some backbone. Don't screw this one up, UN.

OK!.....HERE IS "Real History" regarding North Korea.
The Clinton administration sent Jimmy Carter to broker a deal with them.
THE DEAL!
$4 BILLION worth of light water reactors and $100 million worth of oil for them to be good.
Jimmy and B.J. were "use-full idiots" for them and B.J. called it a "good deal!"
Thank-you dems.....as I said before,The Republicans have to clean up after the dems are voted out of office. THANKS! for this one!
Paulo

Paulo were do you get your facts made up or RNC talking points. Clinton and his staff were close to a deal. Bush and the hardliners stopped all contact with North Korea. The Bush Hardliners here must take the blame no one else. Now those are the facts no bull allowed here

Paulo...Bush as been in office with total control
for SIX years...Blaming Clinton and Carter is getting REAL old!

Paulo,

Before you make yourself look anymore foolish than you already have,I want you to read War and Peace,and then check back in with me,you wingnut.

We've reached the point with N.Korea(thanks to our Cheerleader in Chief) that maybe we should tell them that if they hit that red button,we will make arrangments to blow them off the face of the earth.
We have NO leverage over what China does,W. has tripled our debt to them,and now they own us,Thanks Neo-Cons.

How's that response for a weak knee'd liberal bleeding heart???

OK everyone, particularly the Cons. listening in.

Relax, relax, relax.....
Relax, relax, relax......
Serenity now,,,,,Serenity now......

Everybody calm?

Right.

Now, ignore and forget the monumental lie told by the
neo-con architects of the the Iraq war; ie, 'deterrence and containment don't work.'

It worked with Stalin, Kruschev, Mao, all the others.

It will work with N.Korea.

Now, I am going to fix another G&T and enjoy the rest of my evening.

Dale Peters....Ahhhhh,I knew you'd try to spin it and re-write history.
Ok, slowly now...Clinton was president and in 1994,he sent Jimma Carter to North Korea to meet with Kim 11 Sung to broker a deal.The Clinton Administration,thru the negotiations of Jimma Carter gave the Koreans all the tools they needed(light water reactors) to build a nuclear bomb...and guess what ....they did!
You lefties have to learn.....communist dictators have a tendency to lie! Again, thanks dems.
Paulo

Bill,now it's the U.N.'s fault?

I don't beleive they're the ones who haven't negotiated with Daffy Duck and called him the "Axis of Evil".

Once again,I thought you wingers didn't care much for the U.N.,now you're counting on them!

And going back a couple of weeks,we discussed John Bolton,who wanted to see the U.N.blown up.

Dale,

Paulo's remarks were taken almost verbatum from today's Rush Limbaugh's show. I thought it would be fun to see how he was going to blame Clinton for N. Korea and I wasn't disappointed by Rush or Paulo.

Kim Jong Il might be doing the Republicans a favor by diverting some of the attention away from Foleygate.

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jdw/jdw061009_2_n.shtml

And to top it off, it was probably a dud. (read article at link)
I'll bet you won't be hearing about this side of the story from Fox or Rush Limbaugh.

jm....Can't handle the truth? Look it up,it's very easy to find.
Paulo

Bill,

I have always thought that the UN was a great idea. After 60 years we all just still waiting for the idea to actually work. Now is the time.

C'mon Loon, you don't think Kim Jong-Il is evil? Did you think the Soviet Union before Gorbachev wasn't evil? Why not call an evil an evil? Kennedy would. We need to negotiate from a position of strength in these situations.

It's not the UN's fault but they could do a better job of stopping nuclear proliferation. It's actually Jimmy Carter's fault, if you must know. He went to North Korea during the Clinton years to negotiate an end to their nuclear weapons program and all he did was give them more material for a "nuclear power" program. Then in 2000 we learned they never stopped developing a nuclear weapons program in the first place.

Welcome to the nuclear club.

p.s. The idea of a missile shield ala SDI is much more important as a negotiating chip than an actual functioning system. Don't believe me? Ask Gorbachev. Reagan's refusal to bargain over SDI bankrupted his government.

What can Rush or Paulo do besides blame Clinton? W names 3 countries he considers "Axis of Evil", attacks one without provocation based on bogus intellegence, and now the other two hastens to acquire the WMDs they're accused of trying to acquire. And Clinton is to blame.

Bill, you and W surely didn't need the UN when the you took out Saddam for whatever reason. Don't go crying to them now. They'll laugh at you.

CM: these folks don't understand the word "Containment". They hear it and only hear "Appeasement". It's been drummed into their brain, poor things.

We've reached the point with N.Korea(thanks to our Cheerleader in Chief) that maybe we should tell them that if they hit that red button,we will make arrangments to blow them off the face of the earth.
Posted by: John E. | Oct 9, 2006 5:56:44 PM

I agree, and with the defense budget still in limbo because the DOD can’t fully fund the debacle in Iraq, and throw billions more at Reagan’s old star wars program, I believe it’s time we get our priorities in order. The star wars program was, and still is, nothing more than a government hand out to defense system profiteers. It was nothing more than a pipe dream, without any real chance of providing security against missile attacks. In short, it never worked. The security of our Country has always been dependant on diplomacy, if Cheney, and Rummy were in control during the Cuban missile crisis, we would still be living with the nuclear fallout. It’s time for this cowboy in chief to get off his high horse, and do what is needed (direct talks) with North Korea.

Paulo,
Did you know Don Rumsfeld was on the Board of Directors for the company that sold those light water reactors? What say you now?

jethro,

you might not want to confuse poor paulo with facts. the poor thing can't process it. and please don't mention the now famous photo of rummy shaking hands with saddam - egads - poor paulo will probably have a meltdown.

Hey Paulo:

I know how to read up on history, since my major was American History in college. But since the Tribune posted this story, it saved me the trouble of looking it up:

But the breakdown in U.S.-North Korean relations runs far deeper than the current administration's refusal to negotiate directly.

"How did we get here? Thirty-four years of blinking, bending the rules and groveling, roughly in that order," said Sokolski of the non-proliferation center. "If somebody wants to pick on President [Bill] Clinton or President Bush, they really don't understand how rich the target is. . . . It really goes much further."

In 1985, North Korea signed on to the non-proliferation treaty as a non-nuclear-weapons state. But North Korea threatened to withdraw in 1993 after it was discovered that the country had developed a nuclear reactor.

The next year, North Korea reached an agreement with the Clinton administration. Kim's regime promised to freeze and eventually scrap its nuclear weapons program and the U.S. offered to help build two nuclear reactors to produce electricity. North Korea agreed to allow inspectors.

But early in the Bush administration, the U.S. accused North Korea of clandestinely furthering its enrichment of nuclear fuel for the purpose of making weapons. Direct negotiations broke down. Soon afterward, Bush labeled North Korea part of the "axis of evil," further straining relations. North Korea evicted the inspectors in late 2002.

About two years later, North Korea announced publicly for the first time that it had nuclear weapons. Kim's regime said it "manufactured nukes for self-defense" because of the U.S. threat.

Link: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/10/north_korea_the.html

So you see, Paulo, that the North Korean problem pre-dates the Clinton administration. Who was president back in 1985?

No, don't thank me; it was my pleasure to bring you back to reality.

Of course we didn't need the UN to go into Iraq. UN officials - and their oil for food program - were getting rich and making Saddam richer at the same time while starving the Iraqi people. It's all well-documented. Not much credibility there, is there?

There are all kinds of problems with the UN but surely the security council has to realize a nuclear North Korea is a bad thing, right? Please tell me you realize this is a bad thing and aren't overly concerned with the politics of blame at this critical juncture? This is the time when John Bolton can show some leadership and the difference that he makes at the UN.

It's unbelievable to me that some people would put political gain here at home ahead of the safety of the entire civilized world.

p.s. Rory, that hand-out to defense profiteers caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. If not, why was Gorbachev so insistent that SDI should be on the table in negotiations? Look at the big picture.

Paulo,
Still waiting for a response...Rumsfeld the enabler...Lobbying for his company to obtain a contract to provide N. Korea w/ light water reactors...

"Of course we didn't need the UN to go into Iraq. UN officials - and their oil for food program - were getting rich and making Saddam richer at the same time while starving the Iraqi people. It's all well-documented. Not much credibility there, is there?..." we invaded them because they were getting rich? I thought the credibitliy issue was with WMDs. UN said not enough evidence there to invade. You and W thought it convenient to ignore tnem then. Turned out you were fools. Why involve them now? The UN? Hom many divisions does IT have?

"It's unbelievable to me that some people would put political gain here at home ahead of the safety of the entire civilized world."

(1) Why not? Bush and Cheney does it every speech they give. Are you saying they don't? Have you heard their speeches lately?

(2) "Safety of the Entire Cilized World?" Please count how many thermo-nuclear weapons is in (1) Russian (2) Chinese (3) U.S. inventory and then tell me how 6+ kilo-ton range weapon in the hands of Kim will cause the end of the world.

It's kinda funny, in a world where the US no longer has any credibility, NK is trying to provoke a reaction from US. And the neo-cons and Bush is playing to their tune.

A strong reaction from the US will only make it even more difficult for the Chinese, the Japanese and the South Koreans to deal effectively with NK. It wants to goad US into action against them, to once again force the Chinese into siding with them. It could go either way, and as long as there's nuclear weapons in the equation, it's going to be bad. It won't be the end of the world, but it'll be bad.

US needs to disperse it's military presense in SK so that an attack against those targets will be rendered ineffective, to prevent US involvement. An involvement in that part of the world, with the US currretly neck-deep in Iraq, is not inviting.

Let the Chinese, the Japanese and the South Koreans deal with NK. They're the ones who have the most at stake here, and they'll deal with their threat, militarily and economically.

Yes Bill,
We made them go bankrupt.

For people who don't follow history,like our current President,and the current Republican leadership in Congress,and Paulo.

That Is EXACTLY What Is Happening To The USA Right Now,Thanks To The War Mongering NEO CONS!!

Bill, SDI is still a fantasy and doesn't address the current threat. It might be useful, if it worked, against the old Soviet missiles, but it wasn't designed to deal with a nuke on a container ship. Missiles are costly and our missile launch detection and tracking capability gives us a very accurate return address for our response to that type of threat. We have no protection or response to a weapon in a container on a ship. The SDI money would be better spent on port security.

Paulo,
You've been quiet. Don Rumsfeld was on the Board of Directors for Zurich-based ABB which sold N. Korea 2 nuclear reactors. He was the only American director on the Board and was asked to lobby the US goverment for the contract to supply N. Korea w/ reactors. Where is your outrage? Why are you blaming Clinton and Carter for events that happened on this Administrations watch?

Jethro -- does ABB mean Allman Brothers Band ??

The current crisis that the world faces with the recent nuclear testing by North Korea is some thing that has been in the making for a long, long time. I believe the current crisis can be defused by getting China and Russia involved in the diplomanic process.

Both China and Russia have a great deal to lose with a new arms race developing in that part of the world. Both China and Russia are improving their economies and building their infrastrutures and an arms race, or the threat of a war will put all of that on hold.

China and Russia have a great deal of influence over North Korea and we should take advantage of that by "shaking hands" with both nations in terms of diplomancy. Bush needs to put his "Cowboy Diplomancy" on the back burner for a while and work closely with Chinese and Russian's to solve the current Northern Korean crisis.

Paulo,
You still haven't responded...Is that because you are furious beyond words at what happened on this Administrations watch and w/ the aid of Donald Rumsfeld US Secretary of Defense?

jethro,
Paulo the partisan parrot usually shuts up after taking an intellectual beating like he did in the above posts. I've noticed that he might be getting embarrassed and has started brushing up on his talking points. Unfortunately, he gets 100% of his information from blow hard hacks like Rush the junkie. Life is easier when you keep your head buried in the sand.

Jack, addressing number 3: Very simple, Kim Jong-Il is a madman and a dictator. If you don't believe me try and scrounge up some of the few videos South Korean journalists have smuggled out of NK. Notice how the people live in fear and how people just disappear in a Stalin-esque manner.

As bad as nuclear weapons are in the hands of Russia and China, the agreements we have - and the mutual destruction capabilities of us and those two nations - are more than enough to insure no real threat exists between the three former superpowers. The arms race between us and Russia has gone down considerably thanks to START and SALT talks and our mutual destruction capabilities are nowhere near what they were in the mid-80s.

Now, Kim Jong-Il is different. A dictator of an isolationist nation that answers to nobody but himself and has no recognized agreements with any nuclear weapons control authority is much worse than having them in the hands of a stable, diplomatic government. Kim Jong-Il has previously OPENLY DEFIED the international community by breaking a pact to not seek nuclear weapons and was raised by his father to believe that his authority is unquestionable in his island. It's the equivalent of a treaty breaker like Hitler having nuclear weapons.

Jethro, you're way wrong on this one. This crisis started on Clinton's watch. Look at today's Tribune for McCain's comments on that fact.

In 1994, Jimmy Carter went to North Korea at the behest of President Clinton. North Korea had expelled investigators from the International Atomic Energy Agency and was threatening to begin processing spent nuclear fuel. Carter met with North Korean President Kim Il Sung resulting in the signing of the Agreed Framework, under which North Korea agreed to stop processing nuclear fuel, in exchange for a return to normalized relations, oil deliveries and two light water reactors to replace its graphite reactors. No mattter if a company Rumsfeld previously sat on the board of directors was involved or not, supplying the reactors was STIPULATED AS PART OF THE AGREEMENT. Rumsfeld had no authority to stop them, and figured he could probably help his company out.

The reactors were supposed to be used for nuclear power generation, not a weapons program.

Though the Agreed Framework negotiated by Jimmy Carter was widely hailed at the time as a diplomatic achievement, in 2005, North Korea announced that it had nuclear weapons.

Bill,
It may be more expensive, it may be more difficult, and the quality of weapon may be weaker but you CAN develop weapons w/ light water nuclear reactors. Rumsfeld could have balked at supplying N. Korea, an axis of evil w/ this aid because of the risk involved. Do you you think he did this because he trusted N. Korea or because he likes money?

Bill:

You're blatantly overlooking the reponse posts in this topic, because North Korea breaking the non-proliferation treaty they signed in the 1980s came before Clinton was elected president. They got nuclear reactors from ABB, which they converted from providing power to being used for weapons, came before Clinton was president.

Blaming Carter and Clinton doesn't work when the facts are brought to light.

NO BLOOD FOR TREE BARK!

What an amazing collection of ignoramuses, willing to blame rather than address.

Carter gave NKorea a whole passel of aid and assistance when he was in office. "Nukular" tech, as Jimmy called it? No. But it got Papa Kim on the US gravy train.

In '94 they came back, hat in hand, making veiled threats. Clinton, not wanting to get suckered into being sugar-daddy to a lunatic, said "alright, but this is how it's done: we sign a treaty, so if you break the deal, we can too." He asked Carter to go along with the negotiating team, since Carter had "a history" with NKorea.

Kim started breaking the treaty in '98, and broke it in steps. When NKorea asked [demanded, actually] the US to fulfill the last obligations under the treaty in mid-2000, Clinton said "Nope. See, that's what I was talking about the way grown-up countries do things. You broke the deal, now we don't have to do our part..."

Remember what happened then, all you current-administration-blamers? [btw "BC", your "history" is lacking many key points; probably compiled by someone who also wants to blame rather than address...]

NKorea went around the world claiming that it was the **US** which broke the treaty first -- even though a time-line clearly showed Kim's claim to be false -- and [big surprise] most of the world believed L'il Kim.

Well, how could that be? It's simple: the US is the Alpha Dog in the junkyard, and most of the other dogs are the little tiny yappy dogs who are going to yap at us no matter who the Prez is or what we do. So all of your "the world hates the neo-cons" crap is just that. They don't care about our politics, they hate us regardless. YOU care about our politics, and you're deluding yourselves about the rest of the world to do it.

So, anyway, since bilateral negotiations devolve into he-said-she-said with most of the world siding with [pick your petty tyrant, Kim, Chavez, Castro, A'nijad, etc], Bush said "no more bilateral negotiations with NKorea.

And this is, to idiot Bush-haters, a bad thing. Because Clinton got burned in bilateral dealings with NKorea, Bush has to follow right in Clinton's footsteps??

Not only **WRONG ANSWER** but phenomenally stupid answer.

You may be noticing that L'il Kim is demanding bilateral negotiations with the US, and blackmailing us with nuclear threats to get us to comply. Why? Because Kim knows very, very well that the only way they'll be able to *guarantee* breaking the deal and blaming the US for it is if no one else is in the room when the deal is signed. Hence: the US wants others in the room, NKorea doesn't.

There's no shame in being fooled by idiot megalomaniac tyrants. There *is* shame in being fooled the second time in the same way. Some of you seem more intent on Bush doing something stupid so you can laugh and point fingers than in him doing something smart and serving the Long Run.