Posted by Mark Silva at 12:01 am CST
HANOI – President Bush went to church on a warm and sunny morning today in Vietnam, with the president declaring afterward that "there's no more basic freedom.''
Yet in Ho Chi Minh City to the South, where the president will go tonight, activists say a protest to spotlight the repression of religious rights was canceled after police arrested most of the protestors. It was to be staged near the U.S. Consulate. They say two activists, a young man and woman, were beaten by police.
"A whole society is a society which welcomes basic freedoms,'' the American president, a born-again Christian, said after attending services at the Cua Bac Cathedral in Hanoi today. "And there's no more basic freedom than the basic… the freedom to worship as you see fit.''
Yet that freedom does not exist in Communist-run Vietnam, activists say – although just this month the U.S. State Department removed Vietnam from its list of "countries of concern'' on religious freedom.
"It’s still a place where there is a lot of work to do in terms of political freedom,'' Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice allowed en route to Hanoi last week. "Just two days ago, Vietnam was removed from the countries of concern on religious freedom because of progress that they are making there.''
Truong Van Duc, a Buddhist who says he is under house arrest this morning, has another story to tell:
"I am a member of the Hao Hoa Buddhist Church,'' he said in an interview by telephone. "Our church is suppressed severely, and we can not freely practice our religion… The information that the government says that Vietnam is a free country with freedom of religion is incorrect. It is only a show and not true. They force us to be a member of their state controlled church. If not, they persecute severely, and I am a victim of that.''
In many cases, Vietnamese worshippers have said they practice their faith without problem. Retired factory worker Nguyen Thi Ngat told a newspaper here: "'I go to the temple about twice a month and never have any problems. I'm happy to see many new temples and pagodas being built.''
Yet, the government here remains particularly sensitive about certain groups, especially Catholics, evangelical Christians and the local Hoa Hao Buddhists, who pray at their homes instead of in temples, and the Cao Dai Sect, an amalgam of many faiths. The government does not like the fact that Catholics pledge their allegiance to the Pope, a foreign entity.
The Hoa Hao, who draw their name from a village in the Mekong Delta, emerged in the late 1930s as a reform Buddhist movement led by a faith healer, and the simplicity of the sect attracted many impoverished people, according to historian Stanley Karnow, a former correspondent here and author of Vietnam.
The Hoa Hao also sponsored a private army that gave French colonial occupiers considerable trouble as well as creating problems later for the South Vietnamese president, Ngo Dinh Diem, who was ousted in a coup and assassinated in 1963 – a coup carried out with the complicity of the Kennedy administration – three weeks before Kennedy's assassination. Ironically, the North Vietnamese Communists had cultivated members of Hoa Hao and other southern sects when it organized a National Liberation Front in the south.
Today, religious activists say, the only churches that thrive here are the state-permitted churches.
Some say all the positive talk about Vietnam's respect for religion lately is motivated by Vietnam's hosting of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit this weekend and its recent accension to the World Trade Organization, as well as its bid for Permanent Normal Trade Relations with the United States.
Bush attended a service today hosted by Archbishop Ngo Quang Kiet, Archbishop of Hanoi. The service was delivered by Father Joseph Nguyen Van Diem, Vice-Rector of St Joseph’s seminary. It was a service of "historic significance," according to a statement from the church, as it was the first ecumenical service at this Catholic church, combining elements of Catholic and evangelical church services.
There was no sermon in this sanctuary that typically holds about 500 but was not full today. On the wooden pews, Vietnamese names were posted for the seating arrangement. A giant wooden cross stood at the altar and before it a circle of white roses. Circular, blue and white stained glass windows shone.
The congregation – men in crisp white shirts and women in long silk dresses -- sang with gusto (as translated): "Oh Lord, help me be able to listen to your words in my time of darkness and loneliness."
At the end, the American president walked down the aisle with a pastor saying "Thank you,'' and "Good.'' Bush was followed by First Lady Laura Bush and by Rice. Outside, he shook hands with the choir.
"Laura and I just had a moment to converse with God in a church here in Hanoi,'' Bush said. "We were touched by the simplicity and the beauty of the moment.
"Laura and I were proud to worship with believers here in Hanoi,'' Bush said. "My hope is that people all across the world will be able to express religion (sic) freedom. And it's our way of expressing our personal faith and, at the same time, urging societies to feel comfortable with, and confident in saying to their people, if you feel like praising God you're allowed to do so in any way you see fit.''
Truang Van Duc, who was organizing a demonstration planned in Ho Chi Minh City this morning, maintains that he has no such freedom. He already has served two years of house arrest for his practice of Hao Hoa Buddhism, he says, and today some of his fellow worshippers have been arrested and beaten.
The two arrested and beaten within the past few hours, he said, are: Tran Thanh Hien, a young man, and Tran Thi Thuy, a woman.
"I am one of the organizers of the protest,'' he said. "But when they found out… they confined me in the house for the past three days… Surrounding my house now is a police unit in uniform and plain clothes.
"We want the world to see a correct picture of Vietnam,'' he said of his planned protest. "We want the Vietnamese government to leave us alone so we can practice our religion as we wish.''
While he appreciates Bush speaking out about the importance of religious freedom today, he said: "I see that those are only diplomatic words. I am sure that he is fully aware of the situation in Vietnam.
"President Bush does not have any concrete action to pressure the government to stop the persecution of our church,'' he said, promising that house arrest will not deter him from planning future protests.
"We are ready to stage many more protests in the very near future,'' Truong Van Duc said. "We will keep on to protest, even if we have to suffer under the hand of the police and the government. For our faith and beliefs, we are ready to sacrifice our lives.''
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Comments
Maybe the Vietnamese government is just trying to keep its children safe from pedophile priests. Maybe it is just trying to keep its citizenry from being swindled by people who preach the Gospel and live in gated communities. Maybe the Vietnamese government is just distrustful of religions that distort Christianity by giving cover to a corrupt bourgeoisie.
Believe me, if God wants to covert Viet Nam, it will get done. Our sincere prayers, not our agitation or attempts at coercion, are the best path.
Posted by: Rush | November 19, 2006 2:19 AM
Ahhhhh - isn't that a pretty picture in the minds of all free people of the world? The true hypocrisy of our very own number one Texas turd, dunce in charge, shining through for all the world to see. Viet Nam must have a truly progressive government as long as he and his wife are afforded the very best that communist nation has to offer. Such a pretty picture! It reflects so well on the most powerful man in the world. How could the international polls possibly express that George W. Bush is the also the most distrusted leader in the world? I guess the world hasn't heard enough about the number two man in America or there would be a tie for the title of most untrustworthy. And George just can't seem to understand why the people of his great nation are concerned about how he has eroded their freedoms at home. Most dictators do in the early days of their regime.
Posted by: Donald R. | November 19, 2006 9:58 AM
Again this coward show who and what he is about. The MIA's are not even talked about just his right wing nut caes.
Posted by: Dale Peters | November 19, 2006 12:41 PM
Rush,
I agree with your post.
The Vietnamese previous experience with Christianity involved French missionaries and the Catholic minority as represented by the Diem regime.
Not a lot of trust developed under those particular circumstances.
Whatever the outcome, it will be resolved by the Vietnamese.
Unless,,,,GWB implied the other day the lesson learned was we cut and run too soon in Vietnam. Maybe??? A new 'effort' in VN?
Perhaps they need taught a good Christian lesson.
Posted by: c.morris | November 19, 2006 9:29 PM
GWB's idea of religious freedom is that you are free to worship his way. But stay away from his bottle after the "service"!
Posted by: Karen Up North | November 20, 2006 1:09 AM
Here's a lesson for America's Religious Right:
In places like Vietnam, China and Russia (Soviet and both pre and post Soviet) there is no wall seperating church and state. Religious institutions exist in these places only as bureaus of the government, otherwise they are considered outlaw. Any attempt to practice religion outside of this government control can lead to serious consequences.
These places do have not secular governance. We do, hence our freedom of religion.
Posted by: Juanito | November 20, 2006 6:50 AM
Juanito,
Good one.
Posted by: c.morris | November 20, 2006 9:56 AM
Juanito, only you could call our government secular and be serious about it.
If separation of church and state were ENFORCED we would have a secular government, but its not, and so we have American Warlord Premier George Walker Bush and his born-again crusade against progress, vetoing the stem cell bill on religious grounds.
You act like since the constitution says "separation (notice "separation" is spelled correctly with an "a," not an "e") of church and state" then therefore it just magically exists. It only exists if the elected reps. enforce their powers to check and balance, and that hasn't happened once in the past 6 years, Bush's religious agenda has been allowed to run rampant, and so currently, we do not have separation of church and state, we have a born again christian as our king.
Posted by: Rob Norris | November 20, 2006 10:13 AM
There are four to five times more Buddhists than Christians in Vietnam. The suggestion that the government is trying to protect the Vietnamese people from pedophile priests or Christian evangelicals is silly and ill-informed at best. The communist party knows full well that a well organized independent Buddhist church (i.e. one not sanctioned and controlled by the State) poses a real threat to their monopoly on power. And to a lesser extent, the same goes for the Catholic church and other Christian denominations in Vietnam, although this issue receives disproportionately more attention in the [Christian] West. The church service the Bushes attended was nothing more than window dressing staged by the government to deceive gullible eyes.
Posted by: Ian Bui | November 20, 2006 10:16 AM
Juanito:
True - but we also have a Constitution and Bill of rights that guarantee us many freesoms including that of religion. Do you see those freedoms being eroded under our present administration?
Posted by: Donald R. - Blue Dog | November 20, 2006 12:27 PM
Jumping on typos in a blog is the last refuge of a dunce.
Donald R. - Blue Dog:
Regarding that particular freedom -- religion -- it is still intact. I'm more worried about Haebeus Corpus, as well as illegal searches and seizures (that one has been under assault since the 70s.)
All-in-all we're doing OK, though. First of all the administration you loathe and fear is thoroughly discredited and soon to be replaced -- peaceably, no less. Also here we are spouting our opinions unmolested.
Posted by: Juanito | November 20, 2006 2:29 PM
Juanito, you have continually spelled "separate" incorrectly, with an "e" where the first "a" should be. Since you spell it that way repeatedly, it is not a typo. I just thought I would help you out by teaching you how to spell on top of teaching you what things like "faith" and "reason" are. But again, you refuse education and choose to remain ignorant of these concepts.
What the last refuge of the dunce really is though, is jumping on a strawman and avoiding the argument, just like you did by claiming I'm assaulting you for typos and then just sidestepping having to deal with the moronitude of your earlier post. Hope you like pointy hats and staring at walls, because you have reserved yourself a permanent spot in the dunce corner.
Also, only a blind blowhard like you could accept the revocation of habeas corpus. Do you know what habeas corpus is? I question that you do since, like the President, you can so easily discard it, and odds are he doesn't know what it means either.
And if being able to "spout" your opinions "unmolested" is your definition of living in a free society, then your thinking on this topic is really about as deep as a puddle.
Posted by: Rob Norris | November 20, 2006 5:04 PM
Robbie,
try reading my posts before you comment on them.
Posted by: Juanito | November 20, 2006 5:31 PM
Rob Norris,
I rarely, if ever, defend Juanito, but he did say in his post that he is more concerned with the revocation of Habeus Corpus than that of separation of church and state issues.
I personally agree with that assertion, only because Habeus Corpus is such a basic right that extends historically back to the Magna Carta and revoking it lays bare our claims of moral authority. But I also believe the issues that you brought up of religious freedom are extremely prescient.
Our representatives have been not so much asleep at the wheel as drunkenly swerving the nation off course and crashing their Hummers and SUV's straight into the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Thankfully, America voted for checks and balances.
But Juanito, just because the voters repudiated Bush does not mean he is really going to change course or go down without dragging this nation down with him. He's got 2 more years and is an unfathomably petulant and small man. He believes he is on a mission from G-d, and therefore infallible, so don't expect him to back off of his Messianic zeal, at least in any concrete sense.
Posted by: Bryan | November 20, 2006 5:46 PM
"All-in-all we're doing OK, though. First of all the administration you loathe and fear is thoroughly discredited and soon to be replaced -- peaceably, no less. Also here we are spouting our opinions unmolested."
-juanito
In my defense, Juanito did say that "all in all we're doing ok" despite the revocation of habeas corpus. To me that means that essentially he's "OK" with habeas corpus being gone, just as long as they don't come into our houses and beat us up for dissenting. So when I said "only a blowhard like you could accept the revocation of habeas corpus," the thing I was pointing out was that he was "OK" and basically accepting the revocation and justifying it by saying "well, it could be worse," which to me is a contemptible position to hold.
So he was being a hypocrite for saying at first that he was concerned about it and then in the same breath saying that it's basically no big deal that it's been revoked.
And he's further pantsed himself by telling me to read his posts more carefully when it's him who can't even hold a coherent position on an issue yet somehow convinces himself that he can.
Posted by: Rob Norris | November 20, 2006 11:42 PM
Bryan,
I think (if i read you correctly) that you understand that I am not dismissing seperation of Church and State as an issue. Yes, there are people who would like to knock down the wall that separates, but they haven't succeeded and they won't any time soon. However, that does not mean we needn't worry about it, just that there are more pressing matters.
I agree with your assesment of Bush's personality -- "an unfathomably petulant and small man... on a mission from G-d" -- but I think you're overstating how much further damage he can do. He is a quite lame Lame Duck after all, having lost his legislative majority, and even Republicans will (if only privately) admit that he's a screwup.
In any case, what is the alternative to waiting out the remaining two years of his emasculated presidency? Impeachment isn't going to happen.
Posted by: Juanito | November 21, 2006 6:59 AM
Juanito,
Unfortunately, you are right, we will have to wait it out. But properly executed investigations (short of impeachment) engaged in with precision and focus would start to pull back the covers and finally let some light in.
Posted by: Bryan | November 21, 2006 9:12 PM
Bryan,
Agreed, adding emphasis to "precision and focus".
Posted by: Juanito | November 22, 2006 8:41 AM