Obama, McCain square off on war

I wish NeoCon John McCain would just go away.

Three reasons why John McCain won't win the 08 Prez job.

1)His involvment in the Keating scandel will be reopened to the public.

2)He's been sucking up to the same Religious Right NeoCons who gave us George W. Bush, i e (his speech at Bob Jones University).

3)His continued call for more troops in Iraq which was a good idea in 2003,but will be like pouring gasoline on a Shite/Sunni firestorm now days.
People don't like W.'s so called "Surge" idea,but McCain does.

The Straight Talk Express has blown another tire.

Obama is just like the rest of those left wingers, he talks in buzz words all of which translate into "Tax and Spend" then "Cut and Run" they do not know anything about running a country except "Give me the power" so they can buy more votes.

WE need a leader who has exective experence. Not a Obama come lately who has passed what one bill?

Now the real truth is that if we pull out Iraq goes. Jimmy Carter another lefty started this mess in Iran in the 70S now we get to pay.

Left is just left, if you ask them for a plan they just left.

Unfortunately, Senator Mc Cain doesn't seem to remember that he was kicked to the curb by Bush. Now he wraps his arms around Bush in order to put himself in the news cycle for his presidential bid. A word to McCain...we Americans have seen enough, you ARE the ultimate flip-flopper!

John McCain has my respect for his service to the country in Vietnam but that's it... as a politician he is scary. One of these days all that anger I sense in him will bust out and make George W. look like a pussy cat.

The withdrawal of troops will be a catastrophe that is unimaginable - this is the rhetoric of fear, more fear and greater fear that is being sold to the public by supporters of this administration. It is obvious there are dangers to a sudden withdrawal but the surge and/or escalation of this war is not the solution. Most agree that a military strategy will not cure the political sectarian problem.

It still amazes me that even after hearing a concrete alternative plan fleshed out in full, both McCain and W continue to claim the opposition has no plan. They are simply being "emotional" and not offering alternative strategies, yadda yadda.

W's only objective in this is "victory", because in the simplistic black-and-white bubble he lives in, the only other alternative is being a "loser". National interests be damned, this is zero-sum game for W, and his only interest is proving to history he isn't an incompetent nitwit. Unfortunately, he's destined to fail.

We owe nothing more to the Iraqi people. CLEAR, HOLD, and BUILD. Why not redirect that effort toward New Orleans. I think it makes more sense to help our own at this point, than helping a people who clearly either don't care or are conflicted. We as Americans have no genuine understanding of the middle eastern mind set. Some might think that this is a more or less an isolationist view. Perhaps it is, however being the worlds keeper doesn't seem to be working.

I believe there is much to lose by turning over the middleast to folks who desire the destruction of this country and it's principles. Principles, by the way, we need to return to in this country. If we fail to stand up to them there,we will eventually have them here! With all the chatter about the "religious right." I would rather be "religious right" than "religous wrong!"

Barack Obama is a true democrat. I am not really sure why there is such a surge of indecision by the democrats. They call for withdrawal, yet will not make any effort at cutting spending.

While McCain's previous involvements with the Keating scandel may be opened up to the public, I still believe a person who can stand by a decision that they make knowing, very well the long term effects may not have a fairy tale ending. You have to respect someone that is decisive and stands the course.

Once again, democrats lack the initiative to get anything done without blaming all that is wrong on Republicans.

If you must eat parsnips, there is no sense nibbling at it. It's the same way with war. You either fully commit to it or you don't do it.

Sending 100,000 or 120,000 troops to Iraq makes little or no sense given the objectives that now exist (since no weapons of mass-destruction were found). You should either bring them home or insert 4 or 500,000 and get it finish it. If Alexander the Great were watching this he'd be laughing his butt off over the way we "fight war."

If the real objective is selling democracy, then bring the troops home. Why? Because democracy is established where there the strong upper class wants it, where the middle class needs it and where the lower class are wealthy enough to afford pursuing ideals. Those conditions did not exist in Vietnam and they don’t exist in Iraq.

It’s pretty stupid to try to sell something to a market full of people that don't want it and don't even know that they need it.

CONCLUSION:
Bring them home.

i don't see any reason why we shold send more troops in Iraq if we 've been there three years of fighting .all i see is the iraqi troops joining the insurgents and fighting against the U.S.,even the the police forces had quit because the safety of their family's lives and their heads,so Mr. McCain ,just drop out and shut the hell up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not a question of Congress running the war, as Cheney stated; it's a question of Congress ending the war, which they have a responsibility and authority to do.

It's not a question of pulling out being a disaster, as McCain stated; it's a question of increasing the disaster by continuing the war. Nothing has moved forward in a constructive way in the past; so there is no reason to assume that more war is going to be an improvement.

There has never been a significant military activity which has done anything other than destroy the country it invades. It has never won an insurgency or created democracy. If the military could not stop looters because it was not trained in police work, it isn't going to create democracy, as if it were trained in politics.

I have to agree with John. I have been disappointed by McCain. I think he is only supporting this surge to get Bush's financial connections for the election. I wonder what his feelings will be if he loses his son in Iraq. But maybe he wouldn't mind sacrificing his son to be president....

Obama sounds like a fairly reasonable person but I think he has too much going against him to be president. Even though it doesn't make any logical sense, I don't think people in this country will vote for a man with his name. Sad but true....

I don't think McCain is too concerned about winning the the 2008 Presidential Election. He'd rather win this war instead.

He told CNN's Larry King: "I would much rather lose an election than lose a war."

We won't know whether this surge will work, but if it is successful, he'll be our next President.

Barack Obama is the right man for the job.
OBAMA IN 2k8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheney has all sorts of rhetoric about wars - which he has no experience with; and, John McCain - I hate to bring it up but, a prisoner of war is more out of the loop than a gun boat captain on the Mekong River.

One thing that is missing from this debate is what happens after the 21,500 troop surge. If the surge reduces violence and instability, I expect the Administration to be back asking for another 20,000 or even 50,000 in a few months. I haven't heard anyone suggest that 21,500 more troops will secure the entire country of Iraq. It seems inevitable that the next logical step is to say, "it worked in Baghdad, we can secure more keys areas of Iraq with another surge." Also, while "clear and hold" sounds good militarily, it will expose troops to sniping and bombing and IEDs while they are "holding" neighborhoods that they have cleared. For these reasons and others, the surge strategy is another bad idea.

Cheney has all sorts of rhetoric about wars - which he has no experience with; and, John McCain - I hate to bring it up but, a prisoner of war is more out of the loop than a gun boat captain on the Mekong River.

John will be relegated to running as VP. The Rove controlled RNC will put a a Bush clone... or brother on the podium. Six weeks before the election during a back stage "heated policy debate" John will deck Carl.

Obama has now starting to talk like a politician, which is in my mind a losing proposition. If he is truely running for president, then he must think, speak, and act with truth and unfailing example to the American people. We have seen him speak truth to power, and seen some chance for change.

As far as I am concerned, any debate with McCain is no contest. McCain forgot about truth, justice, and the American way a long time ago, and plays the game with a set of rules that can only advance the cause of the existing corporate government.

If Obama is trying to play politics with this evil regime he has lost allready. One thing that God himself can't do is play another man's game. He can't beat an ace with a duece, and playing games is not the way to meaningful change.

We The People hace spoken, and are now being ignored by the present administration, that has decided their course many years ago. Meaningful change is necessary for any chance for peace in the Middle East.

Good thoughts...good words...good deeds G:

This may seem small in the larger context, but your decription of what Sen. Boxer said to Sec. Rice is a total mischaracterization. What she said was that neither of them were paying the price of the war, since neither of them had family there. Sec. Rice's status as a single woman was never mentioned. Read the transcript, not some second hand account of it.

this is just another example of how John McCain has lost touch with the American people and is refusing to hold bush accountable for his ambitions to save face instead of lives

I saw Obama the show and I was struck by the poor lighting which was evident every time Obama moved his hands - as he does quite often.

For those who think I'm being frivolous, I would just note that many believe the lighting hurt Nixon during his debate with JFK.

John McCain is now a tired old man, desperate to become president. He'll say and do whatever it takes to get access to the Big Money out there. I don't trust him at all and "straight talk"? Not any more.

I truly believe Barack Obama will be our president, if not in 2008 then certainly in 2012. It's going to take 25-30 years to undo all the damage this incompetent president has done to our country and to our basic rights as Americans. His adventuring in the Middle East as our "war president" just boggles my mind. How could we have consented to such a thing? He used our fear to gain unprecedented and undeserved power.

The problem is by cooked up intelligence and continuous lies, we have been led into this mess. As one of the European news report said "Now the Presidents wants to clear the mess with American blood."

Americans are very patient and accommodating and forgiving people. How long can we put up with disinformation and lies, and what upsets me, is we waste our resources by sending our officials abroad to trumpet about our misguided policy.

If we express our disagreement with the President's policies we are labelled unpatriotic and not dedicated to the principles of democracy. As someone said 'the President is a public servant. The public is his employer.' And everyone who has worked knows that employer can also fire an employee.

As Sen. Biden forewarned, we hope that the President won't extend the conflict in Middle East. I am not so sure, Senator. Two months ago his top generals in Iraq spoke against the surge. And what did he answer reporters' questions with? "I have to listen to the generals out in the field." And did what he was advised by Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. And will do the same.

So there Senator.

Pl. send a copy to Sen. Biden

The middle East controls 70% of the world's oil reserves. To allow it to be controlled by forces hostile to the free world would place the world in economic and political unrest.

Obama simply mouthed current Democratic talking points, i.e. we are already in a catastrophe, nobody wants to pull troops out immediately but to withdraw gradually, and then he simply criticizes Bush. The Democratics have no plan except to "talk with" those commited to our destruction. At least Obama, unlike most of his Democratic brethren, is consistent since he voted against the war initially.

McCain's principle is an old fashioned belief, that after voting to commit troops in Iraq, we should continue to support them until we succeed. McCain questioned how others in Congress could vote to send troops to Iraq, and now say they were duped by Bush. Additionally, these same politicians that voted to go into Iraq, would now announce our intentions to withdraw and betray from our allies, the Iraqi people who have elected a democratic government, leaving them alone to handle those who want to overthrow their democracy. What a great message this sends to those who love freedom in the world about the United States.

Generations of brave Americans who have fought and defended freedome must be "turning over in their graves".

Fred makes a good point, but it is headed in the wrong direction. We need to take a stand against moralists here in our own country before we can take a stand against moralists in the Middle East.

And maybe we SHOULD wait until they come to our country. Then at least we'll make a united stand, we'll all have to sacrifice, and we won't stop fighting until all of the Middle East stops fighting.

Now that's a war worth fighting.

Onward Christian son ... and daughter ....

And death to the Disco King.

... Uh... Sorry. I got carried away.

Perhaps I am cynical, but with sectarian violence tearing apart the country, why is the focus on Bahgdad? Perhaps because the current adminstration well knows that, just like Saigon, that is where the end game will play out, and they don't want those last helicopters leaving the roof of the embacy during thier reign.

An additional 21,500 troops is not enough to win, even the pentagon's intial estimatles called for 350,000 personel, and the Rand Insituties estimate is closer to half a million men.

If as the President and his supporters suggest, that if we pull out the rsult is an unimaginable catastrophe, then why isnl tthe proposal to put 350,000 or ever 500,000 men on the ground? Yes that latter number would require every deployable soldier and marine we have, but, if the consequence of not winning is an unimaginable catastrophe, then why aren't we pulling out all the stops?

The real asnwer is simple, it is because the result will not be an unimaginable catastrophe. There will jsut be a new dictator in a region used to them since we overthrew the first democracy there in the 50's. For all the rhetoric about democracy, we as a country like dealing with dictators, they are predictable, corruptable and controllable.

beyond a shadow of a doubt Iran and other oil producing countries are joining together to cause a horrific problem for the few democratic no Islamic countries in the world. They have announced it yet we still keep our heads stuck in the ground being non re-active instead of being proactive. Iraq is also in this same mix....
How will we stop them from nationalizing the oil once we "pull out" or even when they become more powerful..

Keeping troops in the area is not just important but essential to our remaining a viable power in the world.
How long are we going to kid ourselves that we can maintain our presence just on our word...
We are toothless.... and we are doing nothing to build up our forces... all the weapons in the world do not make up for lack of bodies on the ground....

Americans dont want to fight a battle that they have no chance of winning because of " rules of engagement."
We have won nothing but more grave sites since world war 2...

Now if we wanted to do what was right.. we would even now go in.. .bring all to capitulation then build from there... being goody goody has only cost us body bags...

No one wants war.. but is part of the what the world requires..
When we come to the understanding that this is NOT a political war but truly a religious war ..
then we have a chance of winning.. but when they can shoot from a building and we cant fight back because its a Holy Place is a bunch of garbage...
If it was your son being shot at......

Its nice to sit in Washington and call the shots even tho it does hurt when our side has casualties but
Let the Generals and commanders get into the front lines and fight and you would see the strategy change might quickly...

Its either all out or get out...

I have a son and a nephew in Baghdad and a son in Afghanistan. These brave volunteers need our financial and emotional support. They are doing a hard job; we were warned from the onset that this was going to be a long and brutal war, but if we don't fight it there, we will fight it here. The terrorists have vowed to eradicate our culture and we need to fight it unequivocally. We need to stop whining and start being as brave as our sons and daughters are.

The middle East controls 70% of the world's oil reserves. To allow it to be controlled by forces hostile to the free world would place the world in economic and political unrest.

Obama simply mouthed current Democratic talking points, i.e. we are already in a catastrophe, nobody wants to pull troops out immediately but to withdraw gradually, and then he simply criticizes Bush. The Democratics have no plan except to "talk with" those commited to our destruction. At least Obama, unlike most of his Democratic brethren, is consistent since he voted against the war initially.

McCain's principle is an old fashioned belief, that after voting to commit troops in Iraq, we should continue to support them until we succeed. McCain questioned how others in Congress could vote to send troops to Iraq, and now say they were duped by Bush. Additionally, these same politicians that voted to go into Iraq, would now announce our intentions to withdraw and betray from our allies, the Iraqi people who have elected a democratic government, leaving them alone to handle those who want to overthrow their democracy. What a great message this sends to those who love freedom in the world about the United States.

Generations of brave Americans who have fought and defended freedome must be "turning over in their graves".

I have a son and a nephew in Baghdad and a son in Afghanistan. These brave volunteers need our financial and emotional support. They are doing a hard job; we were warned from the onset that this was going to be a long and brutal war, but if we don't fight it there, we will fight it here. The terrorists have vowed to eradicate our culture and we need to fight them unequivocally. We need to stop whining and start being as brave as our sons and daughters are.

Give the prez one last chance to show significant progress in the next 12 months. Most of the generals for a long time have been crying out for more troops. Let's see if that works. If not, then out.
I would hope that EVERYONE wants to see significant progress. So far we haven't seen it. More troops might do it. I don't see how a pull-out would. Whether America likes it or not, they owe Iraq that after the crazy invasion. Of course, if the Iraqis don't step up, then it's hopeless. And they will need to sort it out themselves.

The ignorance of Obama and his lack of understanding about Iran's ambitions in the middle east as well as Saudi Arabia's stake in keeping Iraq Sunni "dominated" is astonishing. Junior, sit down please.

I am glad we have so many educated people leaving their comments here. I for one know little and what I know from the one sided press, I don't like. Yes Bush is not too great a president, but he was better than the other choices these past two election. Please find some one better in 2008. Why do we have so many people that think they know what to do; yet so many others say they are wrong? No matter who's calling the shots, that will be.

The question is no longer should we be there. The question is how can we finish what we started. If we pull out too soon, without finishing what we started, we have paid a high price for nothing. That price was paid by over three thousand of our troops and their families. I support finishing it. I don't like it, but Bush's plan is still the best I see. I don't think 21,500 are enough to finish this soon. But I understand sending too many also has its price. More troops should have been sent sooner. God bless our troops and God bless our people.

Why is no one commenting on the *hydrocarbon law* and the protection it offers big oil under the guise of W's latest surge strategy? See Bob Cesca's 1/9/07 article on the hydrocarbon law, reported in the Independent 1/7/07:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/kennedy-offers-a-slam-dun_b_38223.html
"Right around the time when new brigades will be hitting the ground (should the president get his way) this March, the new and underreported Iraqi 'hydrocarbon law' will likely be passed. According to The Independent, the law, written in conjunction with the Bush administration and brokered by a firm in McLean, Virginia, allows Western oil companies specifically including Shell, Exxon-Mobile and BP to hork Iraqi oil and pocket 75-percent of the profits. That's 75-percent of the profits from the source of 95-percent of the Iraqi economy. The Independent:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2132569.ece
'[The law] would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.'

"You remember Shell, Exxon-Mobile and BP: three of the principles in Vice President Cheney's energy task force. And now, with security a major issue, they could be granted by the president an American military 'surge' to protect their trafficking lanes and dampen any resistance from the Iraqi people who surely won't dig the idea of their only commodity ripped out from under their feet."

John McCain wrote:
Glory is not a conceit.It is not a decoration of valor.Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself,to a cause,to your principles,to the people on whom you rely and who rely on you in return.
Barack "H" Obama wrote:
Junkie,Pothead...I "got high" to push a question of who I was out of my mind.
I think I'll go with McCain on this one!
Paulo

If we left Viet Nam we were told the Communist dominoes would fall and it would be a catastrophe. While it may have been to a few people, it wasn't to the vast majority and in the long run, Viet Nam is a reasonably functional country, one that Pres. Bush recently visited. What leads us to believe that leaving Iraq would be more of a catastrophe than it currently is? We lost in Viet Nam. we are losing the war in Iraq. Admit we lost and leave in an orderly fashion.

When the escalation in Vietnam was being rejected by the American people, the Industrial Military Complex ie our government, said the same thing as they are saying now. 'To pull out would be a catastrophy'. Guess what. Didn't happen.
George W. has been wrong about just about everything since day 1. Brownie was not doing 'a heck of a job'. Rumsfeld was not 'the right man for the job'. There were no 'weapons of mass destruction' and Steely Dan is not one person. Stop the madness!!!!!!!!!

Our nation illegally invaded Iraq.

Our nation continues to occupy a defeated Irag.

Our nation contributes to the perpetuation of insurgent violence at the expense of the civilians of both.

Our nation seeks control of the resources of Iraq and create an additional proxy state by which to further control the region.

What else is new? This is American History 101 people!

When the dust finally settles we will have truly impacted the Middle East. Will it be positive? It will depend on who is asked.

Peace is better.

There comes a time when one must look beyond the veil and ask why Bush really went to war. It was not becasue of 911. If there was truth to anything Bush does it would be to see that he and Cheney are in the oil business. That said, where does the oil come from? Saudi Arabia. Where were the so-called terrorists from? Where was Bin Laden born? Who were the only people allowed to fly after all others were not on the day 911 took place? Lets look at another possibility. Could Bush have made a deal with the Saudi's? During his Presidency could Bush not assure the Saudi's continued support and financial gain by giving them unlimited continued oil consumption? And isn't it interesting how the price at the pumps reflect certain political actions during elections? Think about it. The Saudi's agree to contain the terrorists in their region as long as we fabricate a reason to send troops there. Bush then can claim his so called success by pointing out there have been no attacks on our soil becasue of his efforts. And Bush implants so much fear in the minds of Americans, he even gets away with violating our privacy. Lets think for a moment about 911. How could two towers crash down when jet fuel does not burn hot enough to create that type of reaction? Why did the Securities and Exchange Building collapse when it wasn't even hit? Perhaps there was information there that would nail Bush? You bet. Its time to wake up Americans. Its time to let go of the false fear that Governments use to control the masses and see that Bush is the terrorist. Bush is the murderer. Bush is the liar and manipulator. Wake Up and stop this mad Bush man NOW!

"Lefty" Carter didn't start that mess in Iran, that was done years earlier by the CIA eliminating the elected govt. of Iran and installing the "Shah", after which he was removed in turn by the revolution of the Ayatollah...backlash of which is today they still don't trust us, big suprise.

Obama is inexperienced with international diplomatic issues (from a presidential stand-point), however he represents a fresh perspective that I look foward to seeing in action after his election in '08.

I used to like McCain awhile back, now days tho' his sucking up to and changing positions on issues to pander to the far right has soured me to the possibilty of voting for him.

Right is just wrong, if ya ask them they think they're right, no matter how wrong.

by invading Iraq, we opened a can of worms that can never be sealed again. It was the biggest blunder of our time, bombing and invading a country that was no threat to our country. W must live with that, innocent Iraquis, died and thousands of our troops died and are wounded in a fight that should have never been started.We need to take our guys home and take care of American interests. McCain is rubber stamping GW and that is a huge mistake. GO Democrats!!! we need your leadership!!!

If this country is going to support another presidential candidate who serves the religious right and continues to abandon the idea of religious pluralism (a big part of being an American in my view) then I might have to stop being an American and find myself another country. I guess all great democracies have fallen, so will be the fate America sooner or later...sooner if the religious right that Frank choose to be a part of continues to assert itself.

There are only two solutions to the fanatics & this war. Are grandfathers applied it to the enemy in WWII: Beat them until they know they are defeated (Germany) or put them to the point of annihilation (Japan).

Both camps are wrong. Either we go in with everything we go, take the fight to AlQueda, Ex-Baathists, Sunnis, & Sadir's Shiite Army and win. Or we should send all our troops to Iran, Syria, & Saudi Arabia borders. Tell those 3 countries to stay out of Iraq. Cut off all supplies & people coming across borders. Then let the Iraqises kill themselves if thats what they want to do. Just keep the oil out of terrorists hands so we don't let AlQueda get it.
Eventually they will get tired of the slauder or there will be one left to live in Iraq. Either way we solve this problem & keep the region from becoming WW4.

The real question is never asked? Why didn't we leave Iraq immediately? The truth is - the administration saw an opportunity to rob Iraq and the American taxpayer blind.
Now the game is to keep the money flowing to right wing - hawk cronies for the 2008 election.
The reporters should as they say "follow the money"! They would be surprised to learn how many "republican centric" companies are sub-contracting to China while selling parts for the toops in Iraq. Air hoses, water hoses, hydraulic hoses and machined parts- all from China. Boxed in the USA. (especially Humvee parts)
Makes China happy. Republicans are happy and prosperous. Damn Democrats and the minimum wage - raising the cost of boxing for our troops.

As a military war veteran, I support President Bush's new decision. This is not your typical war with rules. We need to weed out the enemy who hides within the population. We need to have a show of force. Let the Iraqi population know that we're here to support them. Let's not have another 80's Afghanistan or Somalia where we supported, then leave, just to have criminal's run the countries. And then, have to go back to try and finish the job after they've built a foundation. Let's finish what we started. The men and women who have joined our armed forces know the consequences and are there to finish their job. No matter what. Who is Obama? What experience does Obama have? Maybe Obama should get a little more experience before trying play full court ball. The old men who start wars, and who have the young men to fight them. Should have experince in that field. As well as experience in governing a successfull city, county, and or state.

As a troops point of view, Mr. President," Give us liberty or give us death."

The republicans promised "everything good" and to "re-institute republican fundamentals" when they had both houses and the presidency. Voters gave them that. They delivered nothing of the sort. From local politicians to the White House, they betrayed their promises and the US voters. Based on the last 6 years of performance, the GOP doesn't deserve to be a recognized political party. As a former GOP executive, it will be cold day in h--- before I cast a vote for another republican. I'm not the only voter who feels this way . . . As for Mc Cain, there will not be another republican president during the balance of his career.

In all the furor over the 'surge' in troops the crucial change, focus on job building, not just infrastructure, is overlooked. We need a "Marshall Plan" for Iraq and should take a page out of that play book for a "Plan" for Iraq.

One of the most successful political tactics of the Bush administration has been keeping the American people fearful of the consequences of not going along with the current administration. This tactic got Bush into office and kept him there. The tactic is in play again. This time it is the dire consequences of a withdrawal (of any sort). I smell a certain master republican strategist's involvement here!

This administration has gotten it wrong so often why does anybody believe it would get it right now? Why believe their crystal ball about these "dire" consequences? The administration can't even see that the current Iraqi government is playing America like a sucker - keep us there until they get control over the Sunnis.

The cold war bankrupted the Soviets and their system fell apart. Could the grand scheme of our enemies be to bankrupt us and thus our system will fall apart? If so, they are doing a pretty good job of it. If not, they are still doing a pretty good job of it!

My small town community has contributed over 26 million to this war. If the money spent on this war had been spent at home improving education, medical care, infrastructure, etc. we would have a country that the rest of the world would be looking up to instead of down upon. Radicals would then have a pretty tough time selling others on the faults of our democratic system.

Here is a web site that will tell you how much your community has spent thus far: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=61

Lets face it America. We blew it. Bush's messianic stubbornness got us into this mess and it is going to keep us in it until we demand that he stop. We rallied and got our government out of Viet Nam and we can rally and do it again!

I am saddened by the infighting while we have our sons and daughters are in harms way.

Perhaps the US is not morally strong enough to withstand a long war and most likely that is what our enemies count on. War is ugly and given a free country gets to see both sides and our enemies often see only a state controlled information system, perhaps our will is less cut and dry, then those that fight us.

I understand the US/Allies in WWII killed 100,000s of non combat citizens in Germany/Japan from fire bombing and we consider that a noble war. I also recall that oil was also a major factor in how WWII started and which countries were attacked.

I would like to see the full open debate on the pros and cons or staying to win or leaving to reduce losses. Include long term region alignment and world oil supply issues. It would be interesting to see what impact the loss of oil would do to the US job level.

Perhaps the UN with Europe should be part of the discussion as some of them would be big winners or losers depending on what we do.

Mr. Baxter and Mr. Kelly:
You both have bought the neo-con/bush line, with hook and sinker. It seems no amount of fact will change the way you view the situation. It is because of people like you, who ignore or are unable to understand the facts, that we have the government we do. We have a president who will, by his own admission, follow his delusions, even if his dog and wife are his only supporters! The scariest thought is that "people like you," through fear and religious zealotry somehow control the direction of our country.

Dems are putting forward a phased surreder policy that would leave the Iraqis who love freedom and liberty to fight our enemies alone. Hacks like Obama show their true colors when asked whether or not Americans should stand with freedom loving people from all around the world including Africa; which by the way is having major crises with Islamo-Facsists themselves. Peace through surrender will work only if the US people are willing to grow beards and wear burkas. The enemy will follow us home as they did on 9/11 and we will run out of places to retreat to. Iraq happens to be the most perfect place to have a battle field in a war against Islamo-Facsism and we owe it to them to follow through w/ our values.

I believe that if W and W'annabe McCain both think that we need to send more troops to Iraq, then we know of at least 2 people that should both be removed from of their jobs.

"Securing Baghdad" will do NOTHING to secure the REST of Iraq! This whole thing was one big blunder after another, perpetrated by dimwits and power/war mongers.

It is time for both of them to go, and for our brave sons and daughters to come home.

When a country invades another country, abolishes all standards and government, and expects to be greeted as liberators, there is a major problem. The Iraqis have always been divided, but the bloodshed since the invasion has drastically increased. This proves that America isn't making anything better. They have turned war into a game of politics, riddled with rhetoric and fear-mongering while the real issues remain ignored.

Hmmm, the only answer for this Republican created mess is more troops? Add more fuel to the fire? Why should US troops play referee between three sides of Iraqi's? Does not make sense. When we leave, they will fight on and on, as they have for decades. If we stay they are going to fight on and on for decades.
Has US involvement solved the Israel vs. Arab conflict? Nope.
Those who cling to the notion that Bush and Co. are somehow religious or right are simply blind.
This man is easily the worst President since Nixon. Those who accuse the Democrats of "Tax and Spend" fail to see that Bush & Co have outspent any previous Democratic President to date (without rasing taxes...they just add it onto our nationa debt at full interest).
Now that the moderate Republicans have woken up, the Neo-con's that are left are reduced to parrotting whatever Bush & Cheney have said for years: The Democrats have not plan.
Hmmm, turns out the Republicans had no plan other than invade a country and de-stabalize it.
No plan for a new goverment, no exit stratagy.
But it's the Democrats who lack a plan.
Right. Wake up Neo-Con's! Demand Accountability from YOUR GUY! To not demand it means you have essentially elected a King that can do no wrong.
Maybe that's what you folks really want?
Maybe debate and the democratic process frightens you? Since we're stuck with YOUR GUY, who invaded a country on trumped up charges and is directly responsible for thousands of deaths, maybe we should demand a better plan then simply "More, more, more".
The only indication of future behavior is the past. God help us all.

I think it's time for people to stop the hateful discourse and start sending some light to washington. I know this may sound kooky, but I think that we can all agree that the "situation" in the middle east is beyond any leftrightneoconrepublicrat strategy for peace. I suggest that we as The Human Race(all inclusive) try like hell to generate some love in our hearts and minds, and send it to the people who actually make these decisions every day.

This present administration has zero credibility. It was wrong about WMD's. It was wrong that we would be welcomed as liberators. It was wrong when the vice-president stated that the insurgency was in its "last throws". It was wrong when it declared "mission accomplished". Now it want us to believe that they have critically analyzed the situation and that increase of troops is the solution. How can they honestly believe it has any credibility left?

However, that said, I hope this works, for the longer we stay, the longer this nightmare of a mistake continues.

In my opinion the real question is:

If we increase troops and succeed in winning territories in Iraq, then how long can we keep the massive amounts of U.S. troops in Iraq necessary to hold down the insurgents?

Vietnam is only one of many military examples that fighting a war on foreign soil is impossible to win unless you have A) a clear objective which defines victory, B) a plausible victory that will not wash away after our troops leave and the "enemies" are still there; because afterall it is their home, and finally C) an exit strategy - because our troops need to come home, otherwise how have we "won"? and of course we do not want to occupy the Middle East forever. DO WE???

It is strange that neither side wants to talk about the obvious outcome if America simply picks up and goes home. There are in fact three obvious results that would follow: First the Iraqis would sort things out themselves without a puppet government backed by US firepower that commands no popular support and hides in the green zone. Second, populist and democratic movements in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey would be encouraged to do something about installing governments of their own choosing rather than the paternalistic dictorships backed by western firepower they now enjoy. Third, the massive investment in dollars and blood the US has made for the development and exploitation of the Iraq oil fields would have to be written off. Oh, the horror to think of it!

There are two ways out of Iraq: by boat and by airplane. At some point in time it will occur to folks that the U.S. is not...say again, NOT...in control of Iraq or, for that matter, much of the rest of the world (New Orleans, fr'instance). It is safe to say that one may measure the generalized level of national self-delusion by observing the antics of those fools who still think that the U.S. has the capacity to direct events; among the great losses that this self-created madness has brought us is the awareness among our enemies that we are not invincible, that the U.S. military is in fact rather easily out-thought and, as a result, out-fought. There is a great difference between the ability to kill a lot of people and the ability to win a war...something the U.S. Air Force has yet to figure out, by the way...and the longer the Bush administration takes to realize this, the greater will be the price. The word for pursuit of a policy contrary to self-interest is "folly", and this is one of those interestingly rare cases where to go ahead is folly...and to go backwards is folly. The McCain - Obama differences are about a future that may or may not come to pass; that is, they are speculation; and in truth, there is little that we can other than to sit back and as much as possible enjoy watching the American Century come to an end. It is a great sadness, a terrible sadness, but that's what you get when you vote for an ex-drunk lunatic.

Hillary is the one. Forget the fulminating parrots who call her a raging liberal. Whether one LIKES her or not, she's the one for '08. She's one tough, smart bitch; She's the warrior Queen, and she'll do what's necessary. Those who hate her hate her not least because they fear her and they sense what a tough-as-nails survivor she is. The U.S. is in one awful mess in Iraq, with awful messes threatening in Iran, North Korea, Somalia, and God knows where else in the future. If the U.S. wants to be a tough-as-nails survivor as well they better choose the tough bitch, whether they like her or not.

I understand now, after reading the comments here. That "FREE SPEACH IS FOR DEMOCRATS/COMMUNIST ONLY, these days, IN THE GOOD OLD USA!"

Anyone else, should close their pie hole. Be seen and not heard.

Considering the fact, that most Americans have never travel or move further that 50 miles from where they are born. How is it that they are now experts on foreign policy? Have they ever travelled or lived in Central America, South America, Europe or Asia. Probably not!

As a citizen, I know first hand, from travelling, reading the religious texts and deep conversation, the Arab intentions concerning we americans. And, it is not good for us.

Inconclusion, if you think, that pulling out of Irag, is going to end terorism. And end the spread of Islamic Fascism. And make the Arab world like us. Just think about the, Islamic invasion of Spain in the 700 AD's. And the fact that America would not have been discovered if Spain had not driven them back across the Straits of Gibraltar prior to 1492 AD. (700 years)

And when they do finally take over. And you spineless Americans are on your way to the chopping block, for missing your daily prayers, listening to your "hip hop", "rock and roll", "rap", or maybe not being in control of your women. Remember, back when you saw the writing on the wall.

First of all, who is Barack Obama? What has he done and where does he stand on national security? because our national security is the most important issue right now. if you donot believe this, your liberal head must be stuck in the sands of the hollywood beaches. To withdraw troops from Iraq would weaken an infant democracy. Civil war is part of the growing process. It will not be a self sustaining democracy in only a few years of existence. This great nation was fighting a civil war 97 years after the signing. So lets be realistic. Many more troops made the ultimate sacrifice in the civil, world wars 1 & 2, & vietnam. I believe Senator McCains knowledge on war is probably more accurate than a rookie senator from Illinois. Sitting down in conference with warring radical muslims is not going to solve this,and only because this is not how they do "business". I hope no true American has forgotten 9-11. I haven`t. As a nyc ironworker, i helped in the rescue effort. we will never forget. When the dust settles and history looks back at the Iraq war and a free and prosperous Iraq,the vision and courage of George H.W.Bush will be viewed alongside the great wartime presidents.

If they cut funding the people will turn on the party for decades just like they did in the 70s. They cut funding because people wanted vietnam to end now and for a thanks the people turned their backs on the party and we got stuck with 30 years of damn republican rule.
They are going to proceed warily when it comes to cutting funding. They don't need to be stabbed in the back again and called names for doing what everyone wants now but, regrets later.
As for redeployment, it will take months to begin pulling them out if they started now. They ain't coming home overnight.
I think the dems have a good plan and should stick with it. They are working on ways to leash Bush.
Nothing is done overnight and nothing good comes from making stupid, rash things.
Obama is not going to be stupid and take wild stands to satisfy those who don't understand how politics work. It's a chess game. he is standing in solidarity with his party for a strong front. there is going to be a huge storm with Bush and the dems must be united to fight the brat.

Don't get mad at the democrats or Obama for indecision. This stance was brought on by the American public, for belieiving Bush in the first place about the danger Iraq possessed. He played off Americans fears of 911 and continues to do so because he knows deep inside you scared.

This war will not end future terrorist attacks here or abroad. PERIOD! Hasn't anyone heard them speaking out of both sides of their mouth yet?

They say it will be catastrophic if we pull out.
Yet it will be catastrophic if we stay in and continue to fight a war we cannot win without continuing to degrade our countries integrity.

Democrats have to worry about those same Americans who will turn against THEM instead of BUSH should they freeze spending and Bush decide to keep those troops there despite it all.

It tickles me how this guy is allowed to get away with sacrificing these military families like he is. He is using PRIDE to win them and the soldiers over. This of course is what they are taught.

This is why he kept using the "Cut and Run" slogan because that hits right into their training. If you don't believe me listen the next time you hear a militay campaign/advertisement/recruitment on TV.

He did the same with support your troops!!!
America bought it and look at where we are today.
Here is a nice campaign message for him.

JUST SAY NO!

The Iraq war is already lost. We don't have enough troops to send over there to finish the job, and even if we did, our secular version of Government would never last long in their culture.

Bush is throwing a small surge of troops at this war to try to save face and to buy TIME. More ominous is his recently revealed underlying agenda to engage Iran. He needs time and the justification of securing Iraq, to give him an excuse to strike Iran.

Iraq was pointless. Iran is a more serious danger, but starting a war with Iran right now is pure insanity.

Bush needs to be stopped now!

The idea that bumping troop levels by 20% is going to make a significant difference seems silly to me. Without the support of the Iraqis, even doubling the troops wont secure the place.
Insurgents might melt away for a time, but will certainly still be in the wings waiting for our inevitable departure. On a purely value based analysis, we have received worse than nothing for our investment, not to mention the lasting effect this will have on the military. Had Bush followed the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force and clear goals including an exit policy we would not be where we are today. Bush (who scoffed at the idea of nation building when first elected) had a perfect opportunity to learn how to do it right in Afghanistan but foolishly jumped to Iraq. In the Balkans during the Clinton years we had a vastly higher ratio of troops to population and this resulted in success.
Now we are screwed in Iraq and are having regression to Taliban control in Afghanistan. Lets move towards redeployment to the friendly north of Iraq, finishing our business successfully in Afghanistan and reestablishing a diplomatic front in the mid-east.
A minor point but Boxer did not say Rice didnt understand because she is single, but merely that Rice has no family in the war.
Obama is correct, McCain is wrong, simple as that.

The article spends a lot of words trying to bolster Mr. McCain's positions and fails to even mention that Mr. Obama opposed the war from the beginnig. What a relief to find out that despite government and media distortions there are clear minded people like Mr. Harry C above who can see through it all, and reach a logical, impassionate, irrefutable conclusion.

We the people of the US ought to tell George Bush the alternative plan we have for him is:

"As Commander-in-Chief he should be leading the next 21,500 he wants to send to Iraq and into battle since he is so confident of his plan for victory, and he should take Dick Cheney with him to carry his gun."

Let us see if his "bring them on" speech will sound as strong then!

JMB

Please, let us not think that John McCain knows much about war. He knows much about flying Navy aircraft. He knows much about being a prisoner. When it comes to the reality of war, McCain knows as much...and as little...as do Obama, Hillary, Bush (the younger), Cheney, Clinton, Reagan...add you own favorite politician's name in here anywhere. Wouldn't it make more sense to find some other way to solve America's problems than by brute force and bloodshed? What is there about America that makes it believe that terror is the answer? We've had a century of bullying little countries: when is enough? Let's be blunt: the policies of this government have created the finest instruments ever created for the killing of civilians...and of young American soldiers. Thank you, Republicans, thank you, right-wingers, thank you, Christians and Muslims and Jews, but ENOUGH. It isn't working. Why don't we do the same damn things, follow the same damn policy, tomorrow...maybe it'll work better then. We must be nuts, all of us.

IMPEACHMENT & REMOVAL OF GWB IS THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM. THEN IMPEACHMENT & REMOVAL OF OIL SLICK DICK NEXT. THAT SIMPLE.

If the escalation of this war is as necessary as the president contends, then the fats cats who support it should have to help pay for it by giving up their tax breaks.

Any who objected to this measure should be branded as anti-american (and still forced to pay).

Without addressing the real reasons behind why this administration rushed us into an illegal war? we cannot work together successfully in bringing peace, let alone, democracy to Iraq.

As a former Republican I would like to believe that this Republican administrations motives were genuinely noble and without reproach. Alas, the amount of published evidence proving the culpability of these war profiteering scoundrels is damning! No Bid Contracts to Cheney's Freinds and peers is immoral.

To blame the press as irresponsible in reporting the misuse of, as well as abuse of, the trust which we the people entrusted them with. Is a stain upon the many noble citizens who have fought, suffered, and died in preservation of the ideas embodied within the Constitution. As a veteran, I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution! irrespective of party affiliation. No one is above the law.

As a former supporter of Sen. McCain I admirered his courage and nobility which he exhibited in full measure as a prisoner of war in his youth. I wish that same noble self sacrifice and civic virtue that sustained him in his youth was not now clouded by his pursuit of unrivalled power. I fear for the republic Senator when I no longer can find trust in the heros of my youth.

Although I was too young to personally serve in Vietnam. My older brother and cousins did. My brother was shot down seven times as a door gunner. He lives to this day. Two of my cousins were killed within two weeks of each other. One of whom I was named after. One of my earliest memories is being presented his coffin flag-which I have to this day. I grew up with a map of Vietnam on my wall, a coffin flag and an unabashed desire to serve my country. We couldn't leave that war either. You know the "Domino Effect" that would leave all of Southeast Asia and eventually the whole world open to communist aggression.

Now, former government officials tell us they knew all along that Vietnam was unwinnable long before my cousins died. I have nephews serving our country presently. If they die? will it be for a noble cause?

As a born again Christian I fear we the citizens of the United States have misplaced our trust in those who would sell our Christian principles and the Constitution's rule of law for Satan's false idol's and unabashed greed. Impeachment of this administration with a thorough examination of the Byzantine wheeling and dealing that have brought us to this untenable position is the only true question for we the citizens of the United States irrespective of party need to address.

I'm impressed by the level and tenor of dialog on this web site. Whatever the Chicago Trib is doing - I hope it catches on as we move toward the most divisive presidential cycle in my political memory (starting around Reagan's era). Thanks to all who have contributed opinions, I now have a much better sense of the issues and might even change my mind. (I just notice the disclaimer: "Comments are not posted immediately. We review them first in an effort to remove foul language, commercial messages, irrelevancies and unfair attacks. Thank you for your patience." - I suppose that expains the high floor of quality).

Its an outrage that W has no concept of the system of checks and balances that our founding fathers thought were so important. Apparently, he still believes that he has a blank check and is not responsible to anyone else. Perhaps if his family was in Iraq dodging IED's he'd reconsider listening to someone besides the voices in his head.

There is always Weapons Of Mass Destruction in Iraq. This is Oil. So send in the American troops and kill all Iraqis and take the oil and protect Israel and encourage it to take Arab lands. God bless America and the Israel "government". Untill the next 9/11.

We still ask the wrong questions of McCain and Barak. The question is...how did our country allow by election an entire crew of incompetent,axis of evil, right wing zealots steal our cuntry, fail to protect us before 9/11, trick us into war.

Barak is right about Iraq. Nothing Cheney/Bush etal has decided has been right in the last 6 years. Watch what people do, not what they say. A "Bush Plan" is an oxymoron.

The best solution would be getting rid of Bush/Cheney...turn the executive brand over to Nancy Pelosi (or almost anyone else), and hopefully there will be some thinking.

McCain is the lap dog, crooked deal depress (not express) of Bush/Cheney. He may think the Republicans will ask him to be its Candidate in desparation. He will get no credit for supporting more disaster.

Was McCain really in Vietnam. He sounds like someone leading the troops into the big muddy.

I watched the whole thing on CSPAN.
Boxer never said Rice didnt understand because she is single.
Bush type of lie.

Rather than firing off critiques of the individuals involved in this discourse on Face the Nation, I think we should attept to understand what these gentlemen are trying to accoplish. Unity and common ground. An exchange of ideas that will move the country in a direction away from biparisianship. Mcain and Obama are on the same team, look closley and you will see taht truth.

Anyone who thinks we can simply withdraw and fight the Islamic Fundamentalist movement on our own soil has his head in the sand. We made the same mistake thinking Hitler and Hirohito would leave us alone if we ignored their "expansion". Anyone remember Pearl?

With the Middle East oil controlled by fanatics bent on killing the infidels, we won't have the resources to fight on our own soil. How do you propose to fuel your mechanized army???

The problem with winning these days is that politicians think you can win wars by fighting with one hand tied behind the back. You committed our boys there, now let them do the job or be prepared to abide by Sharia laws in the near future.

There's no doubt that McCain will be hurt because of his steadfats support for a troop increase.

http://polibuzz.blogspot.com/2007/01/2008-obama-set-to-announce.html

It's questionable whether he's even electable anymore. He's lost moderates with his war support and has never had the complete backing of the GOP right.

I back John McCain's logic all the way.

The nations in the what we now call the Middle East have been fighting and waring since before the beginning of written history - just go check your Bible. Does anyone (apparently W and his boys do) think we can reverse over 5000 years of in fighting? If we stay another month, another year, another 5 years or another 100 years or even 1000 years, within a few weeks after we make our final departure (phased or all at once) the fighting will begin anew...our presence hasn't even stopped it. We have been in Iraq longer than all of World War II and we aren't even in control of a single city...more troops will help? Get real.

I think that the world and America has had enough of the U.S. wasting trillions of dollars whilst occupying other people's countries and trying to build a new friendly government who will grant them political and economic concessions in a non-saturated marketplace. It didn't work with the propped up shah of Iran in the 1970's, it didn't work in supplying weapons and troops to the Afghan rebels in the 1980's, it didn't work in the central American territories in the 1980's and it still isn't working in Iraq.

If McCain wants more troops sent abroad, then he needs to consider expanding the American voting base to cover any country that American political decisions are affecting, i.e, the entire world. If troops remain in Iraq or anywhere else, then it's time that the rest of the world got to cast a vote for the next American President.

Oil:
Loss of middle east oil may be exactly what we need to force the United States to become energy independent. We need a "war" on developing clean, renewable energy sources so we can be independent. We need many, many, small sources of distributed energy and not centralized big sources. By having redundancy we have security.
Let them have the oil, there are alternatives. BUT we have to get off our duffs to do it.

Facts speak for themselves, over 3000 American lives lost, over 20000 wounded, Iraq as a country destroyed. McCain supports administration that is in favor of torture and escalating further this pointless war. The only thing our 'leaders' have shown is that they are absolutely incompetent when it comes to understanding Middle East problems, and are even worse trying to solve them. Mr. McCain IS part of the problem.

So far I'm most impressed by the 3rd party Shieffer/Russert ticket. (One can wish -- they're way too smart).

America would not have been discovered? Heh, that's the least educated assertion in this entire dialogue.

Since the US is unwilling to deploy 500,000 troops in the next twelve months which is required to ensure victory, then it is time for us to stop letting our brave kids die for a war that should not have been started.

I'd much rather see any 'surge' of 21,000 troops deployed to Afghanistan so we can finally eradicate Osama's enclave there and terminate those who actually attacked America.

Not only is there an alternative plan to the Bush escalation, but that plan has been around since before Bush took this nation to war.

It was proposed by the same people who accurately predicted the results, all of them,before Bush launched his attack.

There was always another way to go- it's called diplomacy. People who reject it forget that the Soviet Union collapsed because of the way it was used by numerous presidents, including Reagan.

Like the people of New Orleans, many in the Middle East remember too well the record of involvement in their region by the US government, Republicans and Democrats alike.

It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle in Iraq, and the US will pay the price for reelecting Bush for many years to come. That is a fact- get used to it.

Had he not been reelected, we'd be further along a new path by now. But the sooner responsible people take the scissors away from this out-of-control child, the better for us and for the world.

Iraq is a polyglot country in the way Yugoslavia was. Once Sadam and the Baathists were removed, the glue binding Iraq together melted, leaving the three major factions to fight it out, and settle old scores.

Keeping Iraq together is proving as hard as it would've been to keep Yugoslavia intact, something that President Clinton (to his credit) never attempted militarily. Rather than using our troops as human sheilds between the warring factions, we should withdraw them as soon as is possible. We should then use our military to strengthen our own borders, and rebuild our own devastated cities.

Only fools fight in a burning house.

When will you idiots wake up?

When Iraq is finally torn apart into full-blown civil war? Apparently not.

When Iraq's oil resources are OFFICIALLY divvied up by the Big Oil corporations - ie BP, Exxon and Shell? Apparently not - already happened - 75% of Iraq's oil resources now belong, defacto to those companies.

When Iraq is shown to have no weapons of mass destruction? Apparently not?

After you have lynched the bad guy? Apparently not.

What exactly is it that Americans are trying to accomplish? Universal hatred of their policies and myopia?

Mission Accomplished.

In response to Anthony Graves:

I had to respond to your posting, partly because I disagree with you, but partly because I agree with you. I think you're right that the Islamists are the Barbarians, and the Barbarians are at the gate. They're coming, they've got nothing to lose, and are a major threat, and they have to be fought.

However, I don't understand what you're saying about only Democrats/Communists(??? What decade are you living in?)are allowed to talk. You've obviously missed the fact that MANY (presumably non-Communist) REPUBLICANS are against Bush's plan. Do I have to repeat that last part? Republicans. Even traditionally far-rightwing types like Brownback have come out AGAINST the Bush surge.

Of course these nutcases need to be fought, but how? Some people feel that instead of wasting money and troops in Iraq, and making things worse, for reasons that were dubious at best, they should have been finishing what they started in Afghanistan AND confronting Iran and North Korea, who are clearly much worse threats, okay?

Fear is W's greatest weapon, and has worked very well so far, starting on 9/11, an act more and more scholars are examining evidence of and finding the truth. History will sort this one out, I think sooner rather than later. This war was built on lies and fear, and is continuing that way. W is a puppet.
Those who disagree with the thugs in the Whitehouse are labeled as cowards, and the machine to discredit goes into action, just ask a long list of "retired" generals. This war has nothing to do with free Iraq, but with greed, nothing else but the greed of a few corporations who are profiting nicely from it. Sorry Middle America, your sons and daughters are suffering and dying in vein.

Only one thing to say;
If we are sending troops (our kids) to Iraq or any other place ( whether right or wrong)lets have the decency to send them with the proper equipment to do the job.( yea, it takes money) there is too much bla bla political bullshit going on and not doing enough to have all the corners cover to the well been our boys.
Mr. President, it is time talk face to face with Congress,
Congress, it is time to talk face to face with the President,
leave the bullshit ego some place where it does not
do harm to our sons and our NATION.

Just pathetic. Rosemary Horvath (above) epitomizes the delusional FauxNews viewer. I'm sorry to have to put it so bluntly but everything she believes about this situation is so far off in la-la land that it's hard to fathom that she is on the same planet.

First of all, we were NOT told this would be a long and hard war. In the book "Fiasco", if she hadn't been so busy being brainwashed by O'Reilly and Hannity, she would have learned how Donald Rumsfeld specifically kept a lid on both planning and public talk concerning a long occupation. Why? Because it would make it harder for the neocons to sell this war to the otherwise in-the-dark American people. Instead we got fairytale lies like "cakewalk" from Cheney and the like, and Bush on the eve of the invasion telling Pat Robertson "there won't be any casualties" (Robertson later changed his story and claimed Bush didn't say it, probably after receiving a phone call).

Rosemary has also bought the neocons' fearmongering "if we don't fight it there, we will fight it here" marketing barrage hook line and sinker. Rosemary, do you have any clue WHO is fighting us there? It is a Sunni insurgency who desperately does not want to be dominated by the Shiite installed government. They have about as much interest in invading Peoria as I have of joining your brainwashed cult of Bush dead-enders. Study after analysis after General's observation has confirmed that the number of foreign fighters in Iraq is between 5 and 10% of the insurgency. It is a CIVIL WAR. GET IT??? They are not after your Bibles or to force your children into Islam. That was Al Qaida you're thinking of. You must remember them - the people we were chasing BEFORE we decided to try to annex the Iraq Oil fields for Chevron and country?

"The terrorists have vowed to eradicate our culture and we need to fight it unequivocally."

Yes, I'm glad you remember. They are not in Iraq (only in tiny numbers). They are in the place (Afghanistan and northern Pakistan) that your deceitful president pulled out of so we could go into Iraq for the greater glory of Halliburton (blessed be its Name). Can you not try to grasp this reality? Turn down Hannity and turn up reality for a moment. Please. If not for my sake, for your kids'. They need you seeing straight.

Beyond the debate about which approach should be adopted, the sickening fundamental fact is that we have ended up with a President and staff with absolutely no credibility (how could they have credibility having made so many mistakes?) ... nominal support from citizens and politicians ... and (worst feeling of all) no competency and no ability to accept that their basic judgements have been wrong in virtually all cases. I think our country has a collective feeling of unrelenting nausea about the White House.

Escalating the Iraq war can not and will not succeed in doing anything more than wasting time, money and lives.

From the WMD rationale to expectations of being greeted with open arms by a grateful Iraqi people. The war in Iraq has been and is nothing more then a horrible mistake. We can't win a mistake, the best we can hope to do is to stop making it.

Maybe dominating troop levels will temporally impose a condition that will allow for a "face saving" exit, but in the long run it will serve absolutely no purpose.

Surge the troop levels 20% or by 100% and the results will be the same. As soon as we withdraw military and finical support Iraq will become an even bigger problem than it was before we made our BIG mistake.

It is time to get out of Iraq. Yes we support our fine troops, but they are put in harms way because of oil. Screw their oil, increase nuclear and improve / develop the electric car. Use our domestic oil for the essentials such as motor oil and bearing lube. we don't need Arab oil. It is just making republicans rich.

Love our troops, don't sacrafice them for oil!

Dave

In response to T.R.Post:

"Civil war is part of the growing process. It will not be a self sustaining democracy in only a few years of existence. This great nation was fighting a civil war 97 years after the signing. So lets be realistic."

That we will be in Iraq 100 years from now?

"I believe Senator McCains knowledge on war is probably more accurate than a rookie senator from Illinois."

Well, let's see. The former voted for the war and has been parrotting the lies we've heard from the Administration all along. The latter had the wisdom and SOBRIETY (for that was the key character quality missing in our national dialogue on Iraq largely in 2002) to have opposed this disastrous folly from the start. So, who's "knowledge on war" is more reliable? McCain finished 895th out of 900 in his class at Annapolis, by the way, so don't assume that the fact he spent time in the Hanoi Hilton makes him a tactical genius.

"I hope no true American has forgotten 9-11. I haven`t."

I doubt either of us have. The difference between us is that I am actually aware of the fact that NO Iraqis were part of the attack, Saddam and Iraq had no part in planning it, and most of Al Qaida is outside of Iraq. It sounds like you are a halfway intelligent person who sadly has been listening to America's Propaganda Channel (FoxNews) instead of getting connected with reality. I'd suggest employing the remote more a bit more judiciously in the future.

I am a Republican, the party of Lincoln. I do however strongly disagree with George W. Bush and his administration. They just don't get it that we American voters are sick and tired of the lies and stupid foreign policies of his Administration. While it is true that from the beginning George W has acted more like a Cowboy than our President, he has in the process alienated every nation on earth because he thinks he is always right. Most importantly, he has put American people at far greater risk abroad and at home because of ill thought through foreign and domestic policies and overseas adventures. He has sacrificed thousands of our citizens for no-good cause or reason knowing well that he and his cronies will be safe and protected for life at our expense. I ask how on earth our Congress could further tolerate this guy. Time has now come to question his actions and bring him justice even if that means cutting off funding for the war in Iraq.

Admit it. You supported the idea of going into Iraq. You thought it was a good idea to go kill people and remove the existing government of that far away land. You said, "Those war protesters are being unpatriotic. They are not supporting the troops!"

And now you want to leave Iraq. It's become expensive. The soldiers are still dying or coming back without arms and legs. The lies told by the Bush administration and the NY Times have been exposed. There was actually no WMDs and no good reason for invading. In fact, everyone might be better off if Saddam was still in power (especially the Iraqi women). You feel duped.

But the sad fact is that your tax dollars and your poll opinions are responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

The question is: If we leave, how many more will die? Will the Shia slaughter the Sunni? Will Iran invade? Will the women of Iraq ever be able to take off the burqa again? And what about your precious gasoline prices? What will happen to them?

I have an idea...why can't the Iraqi government draft their own men to help raise their own army?

1. It would get every military aged male off the street.
2. It would help bring unity by promoting Nationalism
3. It would employ Iraqi men.
4. It would give every person a stake in their own country.
5. We could bring our troops home.

Barack osamah-( hic)alabama Hussien Obama, ( as his leader Teddy chappaquidick calls him while speaking drunk )is an empty suit. If this is considered an "unfair attack" by you, I challenge you to find him on any issue other than this rather safe one. Heck no one likes war, Osama alhambra alabama..(..HIC...) Obama....

Does anyone remember that we had no right to be in Iraq in the first place, we have devestated the country, and now we want to "finish" the job.
I am disgusted with this administration and our constant rhetoric while the suffering continues.
Get the H--- out of Iraq. I'm sure we can find other ways of paying retribution for what we have done.
Please see the truth of this SAVE FACE AND SAVE OIL, at any cost. After all winning at any cost was the original slogan of the Bush Selection in 2000. I am so ashamed of the suffering this gov't and our dollars have caused.

If God himself couldnot get these people to stop fighting why do we think we can. It was a mistake to invade in the first place and now it is a bigger mistake to send in more troops. The conservatives that support this are only sending the 21000 troops into a situation that has no end except death. Bring the troops home and secure our own boarders. I am tired of our milatary fighting a battle they can not win because a bunch of idiots won't wake up and smell the coffee. There can be no victory by the strength of arms!

I have a quote which I think speaks both to knee-jerk Republican/Righties who think just throwing more troops at the Iraq situation will work, and knee-jerk Democrat/Lefties who minimize the Islamist threat.

"I hope you good, loyal Americans understand that in the long run the Islamist extremists are going to win. Because you can't beat numbers, and you can't beat fanaticism - the willingness to die for an idea
A country like ours, preoccupied with Jet Skis, off-road vehicles, snow boards, Jacuzzis, microwave ovens, pornography, lap dances, massage parlors, escort services, panty liners, penis enhancement, tummy tucks, thongs, and Odor Eaters doesn't have a prayer - not even a good, old-fashioned Christian prayer - against a billion fanatics who hate that country, detest its materialism and have nothing really to lose. Maybe fifty years ago, but not today when germs and chemicals and nuclear materials are for sale everywhere.
People who don't give a shit and have nothing to lose will always prevail over people who are fighting for some vague sentiment scrawled on a piece of parchment. Folks, they're gonna getcha; and it ain't gonna be pleasant.
We can't drop a five-thousand-pound bomb on every one of them. They will either run all over us or, in trying, they will turn us into even bigger monsters than we already are.
And don't get excited about this goofy idea, "the spread of democracy." No matter who the U.S. puts in charge to bring peace and order in Iraq or Palestine or anywhere else, those people will be killed. It's that simple. Anyone who supports the United States will be killed. Peace and order will not be tolerated. Start saving your cash for the black market, folks, you're gonna need it."

-George Carlin

All of these comments above are fine but please remember that more than 3000 young Americans died, 20-30,000 at least are mutilated and more than 100,000 got the Vietnam syndrome for one man obsession with terrorism in a country where another obsessed dictator was at least capable of controlling this sectarian fight, which obviously make him a better leader. Sleep well Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, McCain and others, the history will remember you for sending innocent young Americans to death, mutilation and depression and if you believe in God as you are preaching you will get your reward sooner or later.

Both political parties keep responding that failure in the middle east would be a disaster. I have repeatedly seen such a failure referred to as "unthinkable". But it is our responsibility to think of ALL possible outcomes.

The decision of which course to take in Iraq must include a backup plan. What happens if we DO lose badly in the middle east? We need a plan B! Where will we get our energy from and how will we defend ourselves and our allies? Planning for the worst at this critical moment would be prudent.

First, Democrat presidents have put the U.S. into four wars in the past 100 years -- World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam -- costing more than 500,000 U.S. casualties.

Second, Democrats have always solidly supported and loved their communist comardes such as Stalin, Pol Pot and Castro -- men who have massacred 10s of millions of innocents over the past 100 years.

So for Democrats to piously stand on their soapbox when criticizing the President about the 3,000 U.S. troops who have unfortunately lost their lives in Iraq is obscene in its hypocrisy.

Democrats are by their nature viscious and murderous. This is historical fact.

Look the facts, the results.
It is amazing to me that still today there are many people blaming at the Iraki pèople fot all what is happening in Irak, please, be realistic, be a human, who started all this madness????? Did they ask you for your intervention? Did they ask you for your help??? And, yet, you lost 3.000 people, but how many they have lost?

Many of your comments treat them as if they were animals, I would like to see you trying to servive on those conditions, or maybe you thing that they live as you middel class right American , surrended by a nice garden with an SUV in a driveway, going to church and praying for love and peace.

I am well traveled, and have friends in many countries. I truly hold that "The United States of America practices the worst form of government except for all the other governments in the world !" I hold with the belief that for the USA to remain a strong country we have to maintain our ability to project force around the world. History shows that any country who takes an isolationist stance weakens and with time loses its ability and right to self determination. (See Tibet, and many other examples of this doctrine) History again shows that Great Nations and Empires are destroyed from within by their own people. Is the average citizen of the USA equiped to deal with the many facets of global politics, global economies, and modern doctrines of warfare ? I know that I am not an expert in any one of those fields. The amazing truth is that in a Republic like the USA I am given as much power over the course of our country as anyone! When I hear the diatribes, the ranting, the spewing forth of overly emotional catch phrases - I feel concern that my fellow Citizens are lowering themseles into the same mob mentality that brings people under the rule of despots and fanatic dictators. Where is the intelligent discourse with soul searching.
I do support President Bush, because my belief is that he is doing the best he is able to with all the information and resources available to our president. Furthermore, The President is not a King. So let us not shift all the praise or blame soley onto his shoulders. The Republic works and no course or direction is the result of one sole person in our government. Now the result of this war is a win or lose affair. Pursuing lengthy meandering unclear diatribes ,that are not clear on winning or losing, only makes the arguement complicated. Truth is very simple. The USA will win or lose (period). If every citizen of the USA will start to try to understand all the ramifications of the War in Iraq & The War on Terrorism (as well as taking responsibility for his part in runnning of our Great Republic) I believe as a people we can form unity while still allowing for dissent. This is far better than the chaos that allows small groups of people to determine the fate of our lives and country because there exists so many fractured and disasociated points of view. Build a majority and consensus with compassion and thoughtfulness (leave out fear & hatred) then are great country will thrive no matter what the course. God Bless You and Your Loved Ones and God Bless The United States of America !

Obama?
Did he disclose how and when he converted from being a Muslim to becoming a "protestant" since he goes to a 'church'? Many websites state ...once a muslim, always a muslim...under threat of death do they part...

Yes, he went to Catholic school but so do MANY kids of other religions but they do not have to convert or swear loyalty to Catholicism - as long as they $$PAY$$ tuition...

Will he insist on taking the oath of office with his hand on the Koran like Senator Keith Ellison did this month or will he use only the Holy Bible?

I see a consistent movement creeping in to change my freedom...do you?

After reading all these comments, from both sides, it seems that no one is giving much thought to the troops in the trench's. As a Vet I remember coming home to slogan's like baby killer. Most of the people posting there opinions have never taken a life or had a person die in there arms. Not to mention seeing that person's family. War is not something to enter into lightly, like we have done. The old saying that "War is Hell" is the truth. The people that support the escalation of troops. Do you have children in harms way, or spouses. How do we support this escalation when there are no more voluntary resources? Has it been so long ago that we don't remember the draft and how that split our country.

No one is suggesting that we pull all our troops home NOW. We can't cut funding to our troops currently on the ground. We CAN start to turn this over to the only people that can stop this battle, the Iraqi's. I don't want my son's and daughter to have to pay the same price I had to. I support my country, have fought for my country and would defend my country against all enemies.

Start bringing our men and women home. Give the responsibility of peace to the people of Iraqi.

There are many very thoughtful comments here. Naturally they tend to focus on the crisis at hand, the end-game in Iraq. There is, however, a larger context which is more critical and is going to be much more difficult to sort out. That is our initially noble but now unhealthy relationship with Israel.

It can not be denied that a good portion of the rage aginst us in the Middle East is the direct result of that relationship. It's not going away until until justice is done for the Palestinians.

But for that rage it is unlikely we would have suffered 9/11. But for 9/11 it is unlikely that George Bush could have invaded Iraq. Though the causal relationship is obscure no reputable scholars I've read discount its existence.

The Israelis badly need some tough-love from the United States, but where will we find the statesmen courageous enough to face-down the taboos and administer it? This is the question Mearsheimer and Walt, the authors of the famed article on the Israel Lobby, can not answer. In the meantime our garden variety politicians are under so much pressure to "stay the course" that they can hardly come up for air.

Hunter

OK, take 5 everyone and lets all sing: C. Morris, you handle the libs.

We are the Bears Shufflin' Crew
Shufflin' on down, doin' it for you.
We're so bad we know we're good.
Blowin' your mind like we knew we would.
You know we're just struttin' for fun
Struttin' our stuff for everyone.
We're not here to start not trouble.
We're just here to do the Super Bowl Shuffle.

Walter Payton
Well, they call me Sweetness,
And I like to dance.
Runnin' the ball is like makin' romance.
We've had the goal since training camp
To give Chicago a Super Bowl Champ.
And we're not doin' this
Because we're greedy.
The Bears are doin' it to feed the needy.
We didn't come here to look for trouble,
We just came here to do
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

Willie Gault
This is Speedy Willie, and I'm world class.
I like runnin' but i love to get the pass.
I practice all day and dance all night,
I got to get ready for the Sunday fight.
Now I'm as smooth as a chocolate swirl,
I dance a little funky, so watch me girl.
There's not one here that does it like me,
My Super Bowl Shuffle will set you free.

Mike Singletary
I'm Samurai Mike I stop'em cold.
Part of the defense, big and bold,
I've been jammin' for quite a while,
Doin' what's right and settin' the style,
Give me a chance, I'll rock you good,
Nobody messin' in my neighborhood.
I didn't come here lookin' for trouble,
I just came to do The Super Bowl Shuffle

(Repeat Chorus)

Jim McMahon
I'm the punky QB, known as McMahon.
When I hit the turf, I've got no plan.
I just throw my body all over the field.
I can't dance, but I can throw the pill.
I motivate the cats, I like to tease.
I play so cool, I aim to please.
That's why you all got here on the double
To catch me doin' the Super Bowl Shuffle.

Otis Wilson
I'm mama's boy Otis, one of a kind.
The ladies all love me
For my body and my mind.
I'm slick on the floor as I can be
But ain't no sucker gonna get past me.
Some guys are jealous
Of my style and class,
That's why some end up on their -,
I didn't come here lookin' for trouble,
I just get down to The Super Bowl Shuffle.

Steve Fuller
They say Jimbo is our man.
If Jimmy can't do it, I sure can.
This is Steve, and it's no wonder
I run like lightnin', pass like thunder.
So bring on Atlanta, bring on Dallas,
This is for Mike and Papa Bear Halas.
I'm not here to feather his ruffle,
I just came here to do
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

Mike Richardson
I'm L.A. Mike, and I play it cool.
They don't sneak by me 'cause I'm no fool.
I fly on the field and get on down.
Everybody knows I don't mess around.
I can break'em, shake'em,
Any time of day.
I like to steal it and make 'em pay,
So please don't cry to beat my hustle
'Cause I'm just here to do
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

(Repeat Chorus)

Richard Dent
The sackman's comin', I'm your man Dent.
if the quarterback's slow,
He's gonna get bent.
We stop the run, we stop the pass,
I like to dump guys on their -.
We love to play for the world's best fans,
You better start makin'
Your Super Bowl plans.
But don't get ready or go to any trouble
Unless you practice
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

Gary Fencik
It's Gary here, and I'm Mr.Clean.
They call me "hit man,"
Don't know what they mean.
They throw it long and watch me run,
I'm on my man, one-on-one.
Buddy's guys cover it down to the bone,
That's why they call us the 46 zone.
Come on everybody let's scream and yell,
We're goin' to do the Shuffle,
Then ring your bell.

William Perry
You're lookin' at the Fridge,
I'm the rookie.
I may be large, but I'm no dumb cookie.
You've seen me hit, you've seen me run,
When I kick and pass, we'll have more fun.
I can dance, you will see
The others, they all learn from me.
I don't come here lookin' for trouble,
I just came here to do
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

So we need to have a massive "troop surge", huh? And just where are these troops supposed to come from? How many times can you recycle soldiers, breaking every promise ever made to them, not caring about the impact on their families and marriages.....all we can do now is urge all the young people we know to stay away from recruiters....those guys are under tremendous pressure to get new warm bodies, and they'll say whatever they have to say to get the kids signed up.

I suppose some of you read the story about the autistic boy who enlisted and the lengths his parents had to go to get him back home where he belonged. We must not listen to these craven, cowardly politicians who yell about how we must NOT LOSE this war. Imagine !! Winning or losing? What is this, a football game? How dare they make this into a male ego contest? And this from men who did everything they could, legal and illegal (are you listening, Mr. President?) to stay out of Viet Nam? They are all liars, and they all have an axe to grind.

If this desperado presidnet Bush thinks he is so
brave,as he pretends to be,Lets bring all the troops home now,and ship him,Mc Cain, his daddy,
his brother and his nepews's rears ends to stop their
stupid scandal that they started with thier lies.

Geeez,78 posts during the Bearzz play-off game.
What's wrong with you people?
Paulo

Another 20,000 troops in Iraq would do nothing. There are 140,000 troops in Iraq now, a few years ago there were 160,000. Returning to previous troop levels will not radically change the situation in Iraq. To "Secure" Iraq would reasonably take far more troops, perhaps even a million. In any case it would take far more troops than the USA is prepared to ever send. Iraq is a big place.

The true answer to "What would happen to Iraq if all troops left tomorrow?" is that for the average Iraqi not much new would happen. American troops are NOT protecting Iraqi citizens who need to be protected, and neither withdraw nor increase of troops will make much effective difference to those citizens. There are regions in Iraq where the Iraqi police will not even go to recover bodies. In what sense then is there any government at all? American troops are being used to protect some institutions, buildings, and some infrastructure in Iraq, and to go on useless raids that likely create as many "insurgents" as they kill.

If American troops left Iraq then perhaps the Iraqi government would fall and be replaced with a more popuarly approved government. Violence along ethnic lines would likely continue for some time, much as it is continuing unabated while Iraq is occupied - American troops are not preventing violence between the Sunni and Shia in Iraq. American troops are not ensuring basic utilities, including electricity and running water in many regions of Iraq. What then, is their purpose? The primary answer is that American troops are likely there to prevent a government hostile to the USA from gaining control in Iraq. The USA invaded on the false pretense of nuclear weapons, and later occupied on the pretense of spreading democracy and preventing terrorism.

Possible worst-case scenarios for withdrawal include:
The Iraqi government continuing to condone, or at least effectively ignore, ethnic violence.
A Sunni-controlled government which once again represses the Shia minority. This could, as threatened by Saudi Arabia (which is predominantly Shia), lead to Saudi Arabian troops entering Iraq to protect the Shia minority.
Northern predominantly Kurdish regions of Iraq breaking away from Iraq and forming an independent state (this is not necessarily bad, it is just not on the list of things either the Iraqi government or the USA seem to prefer).
Iran playing a greater role in Iraqi politics, possibly encouraging the formation of an Iraqi government directly amenable to Iran.

To much taking with no results. Meantime more american solkdiers are killed. Lets come home and build our protection. EA

We should not have gone to Iraq in the first place. We are not welcome there. Insurgents from all over the region are swarming to take a poke at us.
It's time to bow out, with humble apologies. The Iraqis will sort out their future themselves. Obama is right on the money. McCain...well he thinks he's got a shot at the presidency, if he plays ball with the "Good ole boys".

When did Obama "convert" to Christianity from Islam? Hasn't he always been a Christian? And to all you uber, moronic bigots: What religion does Bear receiver Muhsin Mohamed practice? How about former Iraqi government official Tariq Azziz? Do the research. Then look in the mirror. What do you see?

Mommy please make 1985 stop!?!:)

Why would anyone follow the plan of a person in charge (Bush) who for 4 years has bungled his attempts to right his wrong. The fact he initiated a conflict without the preparation needed speaks volumes for his incapabilities. He has had 4 years to make it right and has failed miserably.

It is far riskier to support another one of his "plans".

Due to Bush and Cheneys ignorance the sectarian hatred has been unleashed and American presence fans the flames.

A greater American pesence, especially in Baghdad is NOT the answer. As Chuck Hagel recommended, American troops need to be deployed to the borders and prevent infiltration.

While Iraqis may have felt that Saddam was an evil person their hatred for Bush is as intense because he allowed a world of terror and chaos.

I support Hagels recommendation allowing the Iraqi government the opportunity to create stability independent of American interference.

There was a day when I might have voted for either John McCain or Colin Powell for president. It has long since passed. Their failure to recognize the self-serving,short-sighted stupidity inherent in the person of George W. Bush definitely does not lead me to believe that either of them, having our futures in their hands would be a good thing. Their judgement is obviously lacking.

Ian, are you sure Saudi Arabia is predominately Shia? A couple of weeks ago I read where they said they would come down on the Sunni side if there was a civil war.

The Commander in Chief of all of the U.S. armed forces can be certifiably considered off the deep end with regards to his addiction to building a senseless war. The rest of us can be considered certifiably codependent to the presidential delusion by continuing to support and fund this insanity. Until we find the courage to impeach the Executive and relieve him of his constitutionally granted military responsibilities, it would appear that the strongest hand for a peaceable and balanced future is the hand that wields the national purse.

Agreeing, that the troops (and their families), who make all of the personal sacrifices in war, must be "supported" at all costs, has given us an excuse to continue emergency funding for a series of projects that fall loosely under the guise of "the war on terror". This noble excuse is too easily used to avoid some awkward questions, and shields us from the truly creative solutions that the Secretary of State declares to be necessary in resolving the U.S. involvement in Iraq. Where, is the debate over what the support of troops really means? How can the physical safety of those deployed be enhanced while organizing a peaceful decommissioning of the ranks? How can we create options for those on the front line which will provide them respect and constructive viable futures? What would be the cost of amnesty for dissent against unjust maneuvers?

Without asking pertinent questions we will never find potential solutions. Until we create viable solutions, we can not construct the delicate plans required for any type of successful outcome.

To free barbarian:

Please check your facts. Sen. Obama was never a practicing Muslim.

What I do not understand is why an American Muslim being in the senate is taking away your freedoms? From day one of this country, church and state have been seperate.

Anthony Graves:

Exactly *how* are the Democrat/Commies obstructing your right to free speech? By rejecting your faulty logic, and not offering you cookie for playing? Your comments made it into this public forum, even though they are utter regurgitated talking point bunk. Where did your rights get trampled on?

First of all, as an independent voter, I'd like to remind the republicans that it was their 'seasoned' politicians that got us in this disaster. Second, to everyone writing on this forum and talking about this situation, stop looking at the magician's waving hand, the trick is elsewhere. The increase or decrease of troops is irrelevant. This is a diplomatic problem and there must be a diplomatic solution to go along with all the other little decisions that need to be made. The President's plan is a disaster not because he wants to increase troop levels, rather because it offers no diplomatic solutions. You must engage those that you disagree with in order to resolve the problem. Talking to those that you agree with does not solve anything.

Sadly the US can't really field 150,000 men without almost "breaking" the active duty army.

China must be looking on with interest.

When the times comes, their willingness to take casualties, long range view, economic power, and reserves of US currency, will mean that they will roll up the USA across the world, fight and win a nuclear war, and when the dust settles be the last man standing and the rulers of the earth.

The only, way to stop this would be an overwhelming first strike, which won't happen. The good years are over, just as they are for the British Empire.

It is a tragedy because the "communists" are the most evil people on earth.

My heart goes out to the families whose loved ones gave their lives in Iraq while in pursuit of a neo con agenda put forward by a blathering idiot..money, money, money..

The Texas Turkey has no plan for success. His Iraq second in command General Odierno is portrayed in the book Fiasco as a big part of the problem for his mis treament of Iraqis as compared with the humane treatment from other US generals.
Our allies are all pulling their troops out of Iraq. The 21,500 new troops will be a small net increase.
The Texas Turkey's problem from the swtart and still is mismanagement.
Obama is right. Don't add troops, Slowly disengage.

The shrub has a BIG L on his forehead and it stands for LIES, LOSER, LUNATIC

The Left is mewling that we need to withdraw our troops, tacitly admitting we have been defeated, in the middle of a campaign, believing (wrongly) that that will end the troubles.

The Left has no-post U.S. defeat plan.

Diplomacy? With who? Iran and Syria? What motivation will they have to negotiate, in good/bad or any faith, if our troops have been driven from the field by their proxies?

The defeated don't dictate the terms. Iran and Syria will have no need to talk with us, and will have a free hand to carve up Iraq. They will create a state that is anti-Western and will allow groups like al Queda to cultivate new training groups there -- a better place than even Afghanistan.

But hey! Our troops will be home, so all will be well, right? Until a regional war breaks out in the Mideast, and gas prices rocket to $10 or $20 a gallon.

And remember, police cars, ambulances, school buses, farm machines and the trucks that bring your food and medicines to you run on oil and gas. It ain't just SUVs that need oil.

Retreat now, and you open an even worse Pandora's Box that may very well be the end of the life we have so nicely here in the West.

Militant Islam is on the march, and admitting defeat in the face of it does not buy us anything. No peace in our time. You might save some soldiers' lives now, but even more will be spent in the future.

I see a consistent movement creeping in to change my freedom...do you?

Posted by: Free Barbarian | Jan 14, 2007 3:51:49 PM

Yes I do....from intolerant bigots like you.

I must remind some of the posters here that this is not a war with Iraq, but is the so called "War on Terror". What is going on in iraq right now is an occupation. The war, or what was really an invasion with the most sophisticated and powerfull armaments on the planet, was over when Dubya said mission accomplished on the carrier deck just off the coast of California. We won it hands down, with minimal casualities. The ones who suffered were the civilians in Iraq, who had thousands of casualities, and have had ever since.

The reason used by Bush & Co. was 911, an unbelievable disaster that they will not allow a proper investigation on. One thing for sure, Saddam Hussein didn't do it, and it is doubtful that Osama Bin Laden did it, but to anybody who looks on the internet, there is damning evedence that the stories that were reported by our government and the media that is controlled by them are not true.

We were lied to to get us into this mess, and are still being lied to to continue an agenda that is dangerous to America as well as the whole planet. The stench from Washington DC is so powerful, that many republicans are also disagreeing with this Corporate government. I say that because it is more of a corporation than it is a representative government.

Keep your eyes and ears on the persian gulf, because it is filled with war ships and Bush & Co. are getting desparate. They are now ready to go on Iran, that was their main target in the first place. All of the main planning for this whole scenario can be found on the PNAC web site. If you don't know what the Project For The New American Century is, you have a lot of home work to do. Nuff said....G:

McCain reminds me of Squealer from Animal Farm. An obsequious, spineless shadow of someone who appeared to have integrity at one time, but now will say anything to get the nod from the GOP funding machine.

I find it very difficult to believe that he has anyone's interests at heart. All his rhetoric is to prove a personal point, to himself. He is, after all, a politician and therefore a liar.

AN IDEA

Lets send all the of the senators and the members of the house of representative to Iraq to spend the next week on the front lines not safely in the green zone and tehn let them come back,
They will do this on a every other month basis till the war is ended....

Perhaps they will be a little more empathetic to the problems our soldiers face over there and I will bet some thing get accomplished quickly

Our Presidents comments in the newspaper today sounds like a petulant little child...
You cant stop me from doing what I want to do and I dont care if you dont like it...

Its my baseball and Im gonna be the pitcher,,,,

Its hard to believe that Bush is challenging the house the senate, his own party and the people of the United States to a pissing in the wind duel with the lives of our soldiers at stake..

I agree that if we leave with our tails tucked between our legs we will pay the piper in the long run and it will be something beyond comprehension to the average American.

But this is the man we elected and I am wondering if he still is playing with a full deck.

God help our children.

Elizabeth,
America is at war with terrorists who all happen to be Muslim.

Obama's father was a Muslim, his mother a Muslim, his stepfather a Muslim. Born a Muslim you are very unlikely to change to any other religion as it is against their belief and there are death squads in many places who search down and murder Muslims who have converted.

Has he denounced Islam? Please find it in his own words in a press release and post it for all to see. Muslim Ideology is Islam first over everything.
Where would his loyalty stand?
With Islam or with America?

Did he denounce Ahmadinejad when he demands Muslims commit DEATH to Israel and the USA?
Does he condone the Muslim order in Bali (Indonesia where he used to live) to kill any white person?
Does he denounce terrorists, terrorism?
Where does he stand on the war?

Did he denounce Ahmadinejad when he demands Muslims commit DEATH to Israel and the USA?
Does he condone the Muslim order in Bali (Indonesia where he used to live) to kill any white person?
Does he denounce terrorists, terrorism?
Where does he stand on the war?

Posted by: Free Barbarian | Jan 15, 2007 4:17:02 AM

What kind of rhetoric is this? Do you hate oriental people too? How many races do you hate?
Go hide under the bed!

Posted by: Free Barbarian | Jan 15, 2007 4:17:02 AM

If you "really" want to know.....you have a computer so look at his website. I say really because so many just want to rant instead of
finding out on their own.

Free Barbarian (the second word is so apt) -

Do you ask christians where their loyalty stands? Do you ask christians to condemn every act of terrorism done in the name of Christianity?

Karl Rove was right.

McCain lost his mind in Viet Nam and is now psychotic.

Sorry, but it's true.

To all of you Right Wing, Neoconconservative, Republican posters who say that "the Democrats have no plan, no alternative to what Bush proposes", here's not one, BUT FIVE, Democratic plans:

John Murtha's Plan:
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr060407.html

John Kerry's Plan:
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/19947

Joe Biden's Plan:
http://decision08.net/2006/08/24/the-biden-plan-on-iraq

Dennis Kucinich's Plan:
http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/2007-01-09-20-38-23-news.php

Democratic House and Senate Plan (pdf):
http://democrats.senate.gov/pdfs/RealSecurity_web.pdf

The precipitous withdrawal of our troops from Iraq will indeed be a catastrophe. Unfortunately, staying IN Iraq will give us the same results.

20,000 some-odd troops is just plain too little, too late. We either need to address the problem with enough troops to get the job done -- within a matter of weeks rather than years -- or admit the whole plan was just plain stupid and get out.

Those who want to blame Clinton and Carter for this mess can do so all they want. There's certainly truth in saying they could have, had they known what was going to happen 10 or 20 years down the road, done more to fight the problem early on. Question as we go down that road, though -- are conservatives willing to take responsibility for their candidates not having accurate precognition of what THEIR actions would do before they made the decisions they did? If Clinton is to be blamed for not grabbing BinLaden when he "had the chance" (it'd have been illegal for him to do so at the time, by the way, since we had nothing to charge him with then), is Bush then to be blamed for not knowing that his evidence of WMD would be false (do we really have any proof that HE DIDN'T know that already?) and that his plans would be woefully inadequate and ill-advised? Just wondering.

Tony:

1) Free Barbarian is just that. A barbarian. Stop with the bigotry-laced talk, man.

2) I, for one, demand that all Christians denounce all acts of terrorism commited in the name of Christianity. And I hold all persons of other faiths to the same standard. Terrorism is evil, period.

3) What acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity are we discussing?

JB-

"One God, One Ireland"

I think Dennis Kucinich's plan is the best one, and should be the one Dem's unite behind.

I like the "airing of greivances" part best. Maybe we can donate some Festivus poles too.

Don't forget to pay Reparations U.S. and U.K.

Woo Hoo!

3) What acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity are we discussing?

Posted by: JB | Jan 15, 2007 11:53:57 AM

You could start with killing doctors who would make abortions available.
I believe the pipe bomber in Atlanta was some religious kook!
There are many if you are seriously asking.

If the Democrats are not just cowards, if they actually aren't just the yappy wing of the Roll-over-and-let-Bush-do-whatever-he-wants Party, Democrats would not bother with a silly, pathetic, worthless little "non-binding resolution". If they weren't just pretending, they'd go right for action with teeth. Instead, they choose to send a message to Bush that he can do whatever they want and the Democrats will do nothing at all to even slow him down.

Non-binding resolutions mean nothing. They are the acts of cowards unwilling to put their cushy elected posts on the line for principle.

I watched the debate and McCain wiped the floor with Obama. If these are the nominees we're looking at another 4 years of republican rule.

This life-loving, freedom-loving barbarian asks:

When it comes to life or death which do you choose?

Do you support Muslims murdering people all around the world - Darfur, Philipines, Spain, London, India...Kashmir, Ethiopia, Somalia, Iran, Iraq...etc., etc. in the name of religion?

Or is there a bigger picture?
Who do they blame?
What excuse is used?

Were these politically correct keywords used? -offended, diversity, persecution, bigot, racist, Islamophobic, descrimination, bigotry...etc."
How do they take control? Politics!

Did you know France is currently in a state of Civil War with Muslim youth?
Why did the Muslim youths not assimilate into the French culture?

Main stream media doesn't tell the entire story...please do your homework to protect your life...before it's too late and we all die trying to stop it.

Glad to have woken some of you up...

Free barbarian-

How are you any better than those muslims you criticize? YOU are making decisions based on religion just as much as they are. YOU are hating others based on religion just as much as they are.

Before you attack them, perhaps you should look at the darkness in your own heart.

I'm retired and have been reading a lot about this war since it started. Most everything I read about various aspects of the conflict, life for Iraqis, the things that have gone on, I think "freaking mess."

I was a Hillary fan until she voted for the war, and kept on hawking it. Now I'm for Obama. I think he has a tremendous intellect, is a reasonable, compassionate human being, and can deal with different types of people from foreign countries and still be respected. He can understand the complexity of situations. For me his lack of experience, or that he didn't have a father who was famous, doesn't bother me at all.

George Bush is insane. A nice guy, not stupid, but completely insane to have got us into this war. Most rational people thought that Iraqis voting by sect, would result in a predominantly Shiite majority -- CHECK -- who, after rule by secular Sunnis, would tend to veer toward revenge and listening to religious clerics like Al Sadr, and end up in civil war as it has.

Well, believe me, things are going to deterioriate even more rapidly now. If we stick with it, we are into a war that is going to last fifteen or more years, and be worth it? Depends on whose kid you are willing to sacrifice.

I'm for a phased withdrawl, starting now, and with at least 20,000 troops every year.

Worst case scenario, conflagration as neighboring nations come in for an oil grab, or to fight against the U.S. or another sect.

I feel sorry for these Democrats and Republicans who are all torn between their careers, and appearances, and how to know what to do now. I feel sorry for all the misguided right wing moral majority who voted for Bush in the first place, or the people who think we must stick in and win, when there is no "winning." This is about trying to pick up the pieces of a disaster.

How to get in the minds of people like Maliki, Sistani, Al Sadr and know what they are REALLY thinking and intending to do with THEIR country.

There is no "glorious accomplishment" removing a dictator and creating a democracy if that democracy is sectarian and religious and creating a situation that could destabilize the entire Middle East and has put the U.S. in an extremely dangerous situation.

Don't mind "Free Barbarian", guys, what you're reading is a really frantic Republican who knows Obama's going to be his next president. It's just making him crazy, which is a lovely thing to see.

STOP!!!
Lets define a Christian.....
Going to church does not make on a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes one an automobile

A true Christian according to the bible is one who has been born from above//(Born again)

As such a true Christian obeys the Bible and follows God.. and that can include war....but NOT ATROCITIES!..

Moslem's and Christians are very different in beliefs and ideology ...
Christians' believe in an after life based upon bibical faith which is believ ing in the promises of GOD..
Moslem's believe that their works their effort earns them heaven which is diametrically opposed to Biblical faith...

There is no place in the Moslems world for those who do not think as they do... better they would be dead....
Many Christians believe that all those who do not accept the bible as inerrant and the word of God will end up judged found guilty and be restricted from God presence after death of their physical bodies but they will live forever in torment

All this being said.... IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE....
The end times are near, mankind left to their own devices CANNOT RESTRAIN SIN...
And we will see a holocaust that will make that which happened before seems like a holiday...

If Islam a true religion, should we allow it to be practiced in this county, should we allow those who follow its precepts to continue to espouse death and mutilation of innocent people....in the name of a incredulous God...
If it something that says.. send your children to be killed for ...yes for what?....

Is their a difference between what Islamics practice and those who followed BAAL in the old testament? Shall we allow the cancer to insidiously invade our whole country?

I say no....
Let our leaders take a stand... say,,,Hell no...
As our dependence on OIL etc increases and our PRESIDENTS reluctance to show any sort of Hutzpah to take a stand shows his lack of any understanding because that he will never go hungry or with out insurance, or ever ride a bus on a cold dreary night in a dangerous neighborhood...

YES WE HAVE TO STOP ISLAM.. all of it...its not just some are dangerous....
SHOW ME the marches they have made to eradicate the violence in each city... show me the newpapers in their countries crying out that they are out of line...NO.. they support them hide those who are blantenkly killing innocents of all peoples EVEN THEIR OWN.... and the radical CHEER... more blood more death... instill fear... if peace would rear its head they would lose their hold on on all...

BARAK, MEGOVERN HILLARY... BUSH!!!!!!!!!
what will you do to stop all this...

Soldiers are not the only answer... the taste of blood is our nostrils... and we enjoy it..
people dont go to a auto race for the victors , they sit at the places where the action (THE ACCIDENTS) the banging and spinning happens.. the true affectionados want to see a good race.. the rest come to see the gore.....
The bible says the man of peace will be revealed..and he will cry peace but will end with almost final annihilation of humanity..

What can we do to make our leaders and those from all over the world wake up and see that they are
really all talk an no action... lets run away from our problems.. lets spend all our money to build up a nation that will turn on us as so many others have done....let put our money in and then have them nationalize our companies....

Folks we AINT GOT IT ANYMORE///

we are a bag of wind ... and we have shown this to the whole world...
3000 centrifuges..being built in IRAN... each with the words.. .KILL AMERICANS ISRAELIS AND BRITS>>

But we will try to reason with them...sure...
The same way the Japanese had their ambassadors in the White House on the day of Pearl Harbor, we are are being led around by the nose... by the Iranians and doing almost nothing.. .but talk...

This is sickening... to see our future death and watch our govenment play with our lives...and no hope....its like a young cat playing with a mouse.. teasing it.. well our leaders are teasing us and our future politicians in my opinion are doing the same thing.. Being politically CORRECT saying .. we have the BIG "C"... afraid to say the word...or face the facts...

I have little education and no political science background at all but Im not blind...Rome fell from the inside out.. it corrupted... it had others fight its battles.. their was little patriotism... DO WE HAVE ANY... .can we see IRAN is forming alliences based on oil geo-politics and a hatred of the USA...CHINA is playing all sides since they are emerging and they have a win win situatiom....and we allow them to veto what we know is needed...
The EU tells us what we can do with our businesses and North Korea is not even more than frothing at the mouth and we do nothing....

Bush wanted to avenged his fathers failure to finish ... but its like FATHER like SON...

The USA is not listed in the bible as taking part in the last times... many countries are but we are sadly not even in the picture...
I think the message is.. .we either will not be here or be so inconsequential as to take up a line in Gods final plan...

God said to Isreal in 2nd Chron 7:14..
If my people which are called by name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways then i will hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land....

I think we could all take a lesson from this verse.. If He condemned Sodom and Gemorrah and wiped it out for their ways... why should He have anything to do with us...

Whoa, where the heck did that come from? Wha-wha, wha-hoppen?

what happen..
people were going off on tangents describing the end of the world and other things using only [politics )
for reasons and i threw some real answers that are not speculation according to the bible..
and it seemed to shut off all conversation because no one seemed to be able to gainsay it..

Its all written for any to read,
I also said what I think the answer to the Muslim ideology which will only stand for the return of their messiah which will be brought about by a worldwide holocaust according to their Koran...

Of course I dont belive in their idea as i think they are on a path to condemnation and their end will be the separtion from the Judeo Christian God forever and will abide in torment..
But that is my belief...not theirs