Warner's about-face on war debate

Talk about flip flopping, Warner wrote it, then votes against it.

We need to hold politicians accountable by making them take a stand then back it up. They need to answer the hard questions instead of dancing around them.

Democrats move for cloture, to cut off debate, then blame Republicans for wanting to cut off debate. Amazing. And the reporter repeats the Democrat's talking points.

Here's something to debate;
How many millions of US dollars that go "missing" are winding up in insurgents', or terrorists' hands, only to turn around & be used to kill US soldiers? How many Iraqi's the US trains to become part of Iraqi's new security force that wind-up being part of the insurgent problem in Iraq, or, once again, kill US soldiers?
Think I'm off-base? Let's recall recent history;
Reagan supported Al Qada in Afghanistan in their fight agianst communism in the eighties (including Osama Bin-Laden) & supported Sadam Heusein, partly because of the US problem with Iran & to keep out Soviet's influence in Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld got some frequent flier miles visiting Saddam in the eigthies & it wasn't to condem him on his brutal dictatorship, which Reagan turned a blind eye towards, but which Sadam was eventually hung for.
So look where this got us today, with Bush in office, nearly four years after mission accomplished & his proposal of a surge in Iraq & heroin production in Afghanistan reaching record numbers (wonder where those millions of $$$ are going? I doubt those funds go towards schools that teach children how great the US is.).
Conservatives still want to blather about our duty to fight a war on terrorism & how Bush is doing it right. For the sake of our country, when are they going to admit they've had it all wrong for 25 years?

Warner's ineptitude is reminiscent of "the good German." He wants to do what is just, but he will follow orders first and pray that the orders are just.

Warner is a hypocrite and so is Hagel. Now instead of a clean resolution, they will attach it to a bill, giving all republicans a safer out.
We all see through it.

25 YEARS???? IF YOUR GONNA TALK HISTORY TRY TO GET IT RIGHT, IT STARTED WELL BEFORE THAT!!!!
IF YOUR GONNA MAKE A COMMENT MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE WHOLE STORY LIB, HERES A HINT, LEARN THE WHOLE STORY, THEN MAKE A STATEMENT!!!

Brothers and Sisters of the left I have found John D and Paulo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f45K8Jh14-k

Brother Dale,great catch.Those two represent the "Earl" party for sure.

I wonder if RomanB can tell us what the "right" way to do everything is since everyone has had it all wrong for the last 25 years? Everyone is so quick to look back and proclaim what all the mistakes were, but I have yet to hear a good solution to the problem in Iraq. Maybe we never should have gone there. That doesn't matter now because we are there! Almost everyone agrees that just pulling out is not an option. Engage Syria and Iran? At what cost? What do we have to give them to get their help? It won't be free, or cheap! If we did that now how long would it be befor that came back to haunt us, just like the Taliban? How long have the Dems been screaming that we need more troops in Iraq? Now Busch wants to send more and they are livid about it. Our leaders need to quit dancing around opinion polls looking for votes in '08, and start looking for solutions.

AS posted at DKos:

Of the seven senators writing the letter -- Snowe, Warner, Hagel, Collins, Coleman, Smith and Voinovich -- only two voted for cloture -- Snowe and Coleman. The rest voted against cloture. How that is a "brave move" is beyond me.

They voted against cloture to debate this bill, now they whine that they didn't get a chance to debate their bill.

That's idiocy, not bravery. If they have a problem, it's with their Republican leadership who led the fight against debate.

Democrats were more than able and willing to debate this resolution.

The problem with these Republicans is that Collins, Warner, Coleman, and Smith face tough or potentially tough re-election battles in 2008, and this bill was going to offer them cover while accomplishing zero to actually end the war. Yet they were forced by their leadership to vote against their own resolution, giving Democrats a vicious electoral cudgel to use against them.

That's not Reid or Durbin's fault. It's no one's but their own.

Democrats moving to cut off debate by trying to debate on the Senate floor, and Replublicans, including the author of the bill to be debated, votes AGAINST the debate? That makes LOTS of sense,

All this political jockying is making me ill. Why can't the Senate have an honest debate about this without one side trying to take advantage of the other for political purposes? Republicans trying to get the Democrats to an up or down vote for immediate withdrawal? Is that what THEY want? Of course not! And if not, for what purpose other than to embarass the Democrats? People are DYING out there while both sides worry about their own skin (and on the Republican side, Bush's skin).

It's amazing to me how uniformed people are about what is going on in the real world...not the world they'd like to have us beleive exists but the -real world-.

Tell me. Are the freedoms that we hold dear worth fighting and dying for? and then for whom? For us only? That's elistism!, and if we are not careful one day we'll wake up, and unwilling to fight to uphold the highest notion of liberty for all persons, our own will be gone. Mark it down.
This is just the first installment of war against radical nutjobs. These are not religious people. Their god is themselves. They'll kill, destroy and create chaos in the hopes that peace loving persons will give up and not have the stomach for such an engagement. Wait for the next terrorist attack here. What ya gonna do then? I'll tell you what we'll do. Close our borders, bomb those responsible and have a bunch of people screaming, "Why didn't we take care of all this when we were in Iraq."

Get the facts and stand with those who take a stand when no one else will. President Bush has taken that stand. He's doing what he was elected to do-protect the American people. When were you last bombed or stabbed or threatened by a terror act while he was President? And the 9/11 attack happened long before we were in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.

Wake up!

Amazing how that "MoveOn.com" lobby got that Senator to reverse course. Now if he only knew that only the most godless liberals attend MoveOn.com he might have dismissed them as any other lobbyists.

The Senate used to be a respectible house, men stood on their convictions of consciousness, not men bend to any any wind blowing at the moment.

I applaud those few men and women in the Senate who stand by America in her time of crises, to the other majority who fear what "MoveOn.com" might say about them, I say: "you have your reward.

Hey, swamp writers-

Where's the Libby trial coverage? If this truly were a liberal blog, as shining idiot Bruce loves to proclaim along with his evolutionarily stunted brethren, there wouldn't be a single post that wasn't about that trial.

Has anyone been following it? Libby's going down, and so are Bush and Cheney. They're all guilty of treason or conspiracy to commit/cover-up treason. Hopefully Rove will get caught up in the gears too.

Criminals! treasonous, backstabbing liars! To the stockade with them all!

Bruce, even you can't be that delusional. They were debating WHETHER OR NOT TO DEBATE the resolution. Democrats moving to cut off the debate was them trying to move to the actual resolution at hand. The Republicans filibuster, thus denying a debate on the resolution.

"And the 9/11 attack happened long before we were in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter."

Yes Mark, we all know that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror. That's the point.

"25 YEARS???? IF YOUR GONNA TALK HISTORY TRY TO GET IT RIGHT, IT STARTED WELL BEFORE THAT!!!!"

Your right GoergeL. I should have said concervatives got it wrong for at least 25 years.

As for a solution, there is none. Iraqi's have to figure it out. There's over a thousand years of Shiite-Sunni hatred & there's enough of each for them to continue trying to kill each other. The US is just in the middle (after going to war on Bush's lies to the US) & their presence is an invitation for terrorists to come from all parts of the world to try an kill them, & by the way, the fighting the terrorists over there instead of over here is a foolish thought. Plenty of Al Qaida attacks in the past few years have happened around the world & will continue. Millions of dollars & who knows how many terrorists are planning to do something on US soil & Jack Baeur isn't going to save us.
Bush wants to believe showing the Middle East democracy will cure everything wrong there. This will never work. These are people willing to die & kill either for revenge or in the name of their religion. They've done so for hundreds of years & will continue for hundreds more.
This isn't an argument to roll-over & for the US to wave the white flag. It's a statement of how things are in the Middle East which we will never understand.
One of the few things that Bush that made any sense was this war will continue for many more administrations. To that you can add that we won't see a final resolution in our lifetimes.

"And the 9/11 attack happened long before we were in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.

Wake up!"

Posted by: Mark | Feb 8, 2007 9:20:49 AM

We had military bases in Saudi Arabia. Osama Bin Laden himself has said himself that this is the reason he attacked the WTC. 17 of the 19 hijackers came from what country, Mark? You are the one that needs to wake up. It is our policies that place Americans on holy soil that are causing acts of terror against us.

Where does Senator George Voinovich of Ohio stand on this issue? I have sent several e-mail's to him, asking how he stands. No response yet. I am beginning to lose my respect for him. The October 2002 vote yes by him was a huge mistake, but he does not now want to talk about it. I thought that he was a genuine forthright guy; I sort of doubt that now.

Robert M Kraus
Akron Ohio

2/8/2007

Warner is becoming another one of those Republican Party Flipfloppers.

You have to wonder about a guy who thought marrying Liz Taylor was a good idea.

I can't wait for these Republicans in the Senate to go back to their home districts and tell the people there that they voted YES for the Iraq war again.

After the next election the Republic Party may be close to extinction.

"25 years"

Read NSC Directive 63 signed by Jimmy Carter.

http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/documents/pddirectives/pd63.pdf

Try figuring out what "developing a broad range of military and related response options" actually means.

Historical Fact -

The Iran-Iraq war and the Soviet-Aghan war started during Carters presidency.

Rob Norris;

I totally agree with you. I have been reading about the Libbey trial on other newspaper websites. What has been coming out in the testimony has been a creepy mirror of what goes on in Cheney's mind. He makes Nixon seem normal.

Catherine,

How Cheney managed to not get indicted should be the big story from the leak trial.

You're right,Cheney makes Nixon look like Mickey Mouse and I wouldn't be surprised if he had an "enemy's list" in his office just like Tricky Dick had.

The fella's down at the Federal Lockup are going to have a new "Scooter" to ride pretty soon.

They have found ben laden !!! Yes ! he,s been in camp david since the start of the war !!

Reagan backed the Taliban during Afghanistan's fight agianst the Soviets.
Reagan backed Sadam Heusein during Iraq's fight agianst Iran.
Both the Taliban & Sadam were vile, but that didn't stop the US from supporting them in the eighties & both wars had little, if any security interests for the US back then. Both turned on the US, though Al Qada is a legitimate threat, but Saddam never was.

But still, let the conservatives blame Carter or Clinton.

Still don't think conservatives have it wrong with the war on terror?

Remember Muammar Gaddafi?

The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, had been an enthusiastic sponsor of terrorist acts against the West for years. A self-proclaimed mystic and prophet of Islam, Gaddafi's grandiose vision was the creation of a Great Arab Nation encompassing all of North Africa, powerful enough to destroy Israel and punish the United States for its many sins against the Arab world. Purchasing over $12 billion worth of Soviet military hardware, Gaddafi in turn supported terrorists of all stripes -- the Irish Republican Army, Basque ETA separatists, Colombian M19 guerrillas -- maintaining as many as twenty terrorist training camps in Libya. He had given sanctuary to the Black September murderers of eleven Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics and to the Palestinian terrorist mastermind, Abi Nidal. It was Nidal who orchestrated Libyan-sponsored terrorist bloodbaths at the Rome and Vienna airports in December 1985 that left twenty people, four of them Americans, dead.

This is just some of what he's been behind, but you get the point by now.

He's still the leader of Libya, even after Reagan tried to take him out in 1986.

What happened with the war on terror agianst Gaddafi? There probably was no bigger state sponserer of terrorism then Gaddafi, but nothing is ever mentioned of him by the Bush administration.

Compare Sadam & Gaddafi. Who really was the worse of two evils?

Good thing Bush invaded Iraq.

It is time the Swamp hosted a meaningful, purposeful discussion. That is why I would like to raise the following points:

The political system that America currently utilizes is designed to keep the population from reaching a reasonable majority and to keep us divided.

The idea of political parties is completely counter-intuitive to progress. Instead of focusing on real issues, political parties focus on wedge issues to keep people from thinking about the real issues and to keep them fighting, preventing a mass consensus that would force change. Change, to the people in power, is bad, unless they cause it. Therefore, we are deprived of the Constitutional right to demand that of our government.

Because of political parties, instead of talking about facts and issues and objective reality, we talk about Clinton's BJ and how he's to blame for every single thing that's gone wrong with America since he took office, Hillary's icy demeanor, Bulldog Waxman, Pelosi's plane, Obama's middle name and how Hastert is fat. Don't you see? You people are like celebrity hounds, except instead of actors, your celebs are politicians.

Objectively, this entire blog is like a gator pit. Each story posted by the writers is like throwing a scrap of raw meat into the pit, and then watch the gators snap their jaws in a futile effort to taste the meat. The power of being a politician, a senator. Capitalized Official Titles. How impressive.

Even after the complete beat-down the Republicans took last November, Bush didn't bat an eye. The election was a referendum on the war, that we should leave, and he comes back with a plan to ESCALATE. That is criminal negligence and supreme idiocy on his part. It also shows unequivocally that Bush rules as a Monarch: He does not care about the will of the people.

Gay marriage, flag burning, a 700 mile fence...these are not important issues. Iraq, Afghanistan, and the future of our foreign policy are. The fact that our government is being run by a corrupt lot of mega-rich operatives for the military-corporate-industrial complex is another.

The idea that there are really only 2 (maybe 3) parties that actually matter in our political system is completely horrifying. It is for this reason that America will continue to suffer and continue to get dumber. Our land will be sold out from under us by our government, as is already happening. Our highway systems will be leased to Spain or Dubai, as is happening. Our port security will be sent overseas, as they already tried. Our country will be merged with Canada and Mexico as they are doing right now, and our jobs will be sent overseas. Our standing in the world will be further eroded, and all the while we'll be here, making fun of Hastert's neck fat because that's where they want us.

But as far as the candidates go...why would anyone give an election in this country any credibility? Since Bush was GIVEN the presidency in 2000 by a corrupt Supreme Court, whose influential Justices are also members of the CFR, America ceased to exist. I could argue it happened long before that, but let's just start there.

Seriously. The man was handed an election even though the popular vote was for Gore. In 2004, the fraud and dirty tricks were even worse. How can you be a sane, rational person and think that that was an abberation, or that it was all totally legitimate? You can't. You are delusional if you think that Bush actually won that election fair and square.

The point is, we don't run things, we only think we do. We don't choose our leaders, they are chosen for us. People must be kept at eachothers throats otherwise they'll rise up once they realize what's being done to them, and that is the main function of the 2 party system.

Some of you might say that we need more parties instead of no parties. This is wrong. More parties wouldn't fix anything. We already have more parties. There's literally dozens of parties. The 2 most powerful ones though are not that way because "most people are really on the right or the left, there's no inbetween," but because they were fed and nursed by the powers that be to become that way. The "inbetween" is what is good and right, and it is what we should be using places like The Swamp to find.

Instead, it's the useless back and forth, the arguments without premise or reason, the obsession with your party, it's disgusting.

We need to eliminate political parties from our government. We need to disband the RNCC and the DNCC. We can use the millions of dollars of hard cash they're each sitting on to buy some fricking body armor for our troops, and then send them where they should be: Training for the time when we actually need them, not for the time when they can be used and exploited for corporate and political gain by their manipulators and against the will of the people. Not fighting sociopathic, imperialistic wars, or being used as tinder for the fire of civil war that is burning in Iraq.

Really. Anyone care to debate me on any of these points, or will you just continue to yap uselessly at each other while your country crumbles around you?

Ethan R. you forgot to mention that there are companies profiting by the billions with this war that have direct ties with Bush/Chenney. "When they start to shoot, call Brown & Root" & Haliburton? Oil companies, waiting to profit from all the oil in Iraq once things settle down? Interesting how many of these companies get no bid contract & waste mind-boggling sums of money; US tax payer money. Many from Texas. Of course, wasteful spending & corporate welfare doesn't matter to conservatives when they're the one's profiting from it. How patroitic.

Greedy profiteering from our war on terror. Thousands of US soldiers being killed. Osama Bin Ladin is in northern Pakistan, the new headquarters of Al Qaeda, & how is Bush persuing him?-we go into Iraq?

No wonder Republicans don't want a debate.

Amen to that.

Amen to that.

And FYI swampers, Libby is now saying that Cheney told him about Plame's identity before he said that Russert told him. Russert looks like he's clear, but Libby, Dick, and George are screwed. There's even a handwritten note, from Cheney to Libby, that says:

"We're not going to protect one staffer (Rove) and sacrifice the guy THIS PRES. asked to stick his head in the meatgrinder as a result of the incompetence of others."

But they did protect that staffer and sacrifice the "guy." Libby's goose is cooked.

Peace out, Dick and George. And I do mean peace. Just to clarify, Cheney is apparently guilty of revealing the name of a covert American CIA operative AT THE DIRECTION OF THE PRESIDENT. That means they are guilty of treason.

How sweet would it be if there was the potential, just the potential, for them to face the *gulp* gallows?

And there could be. I thought the penalty for Treason was DEATH.

Roman, you are correct. The war profiteering that is absolutely going on (watch Iraq for Sale) is the most dispicable thing happening in Iraq.

And yes, it is actually happening, but the fact that we're all at each others throats, arguing about whose team is better, or who has the "moral high ground," or some other term of political maneuvering, is why we're kept from coming together to talk about it in a real way and why we're powerless to do anything about it.

It's amazing that the obstructionist Republican Senators stopped debate on a resolution that they kept saying was meaningless. If it was so meaningless, why were they so afraid of its passing? They are simply terrified to let the people speak through their representatives.

These stalling tactics being employed by the Republicans reminds me of the North Vietnamese at the Paris peace talks. They would argue about the shape of the negotiating table and other irrelevancies. Meanwhile our troops are paying the price for their procedural game playing. The debate absolutely needs to happen in the Senate and those obstructing it will pay the price at the next election.

Go figure! Typical of a Republican. Just can't seem to make up their minds. Guess that makes them all mindless. When I return to Iraq, I hope I don't have some one like Warner with me on a patrol. Indecisiveness will get you killed as is evident with current operations being conducted in theatre. It's sickening to hear all the lies be told by this administration on a daily basis. Just look at your surge. It's not a surge America. We are putting FOB's in the city once again. They were there initially untill we slowly gave back the city to the Iraqi's. Washington needs to be honest and stop misleading the people. We are starting from scratch once again. The worst part is there is more civil fighting going on and so adding more soldiers will not work but will create more American targets. Gee thanks. May god be with me on this next deployment.
Swamp is the best

Hey Hagel, WHY DON'T YOU GO SELL SHOES!

Well said Ethan.

Warner is a first class coward, and should be thrown out of office. Does he not recognize a mad man when he sees one? How pothetic.

Warner is just acting as a good White House soldier should. He first introduced his bill as part of a divide and conquor strategy against the Democratic bill. When the Democrats united behind his bill the next phase was to stop the passage of his own bill.
He may make some noise now but nothing will be done. He is simply practicing COYA at this time.

Isn't it interesting. When a Republican changes his mind, it's an "about-face," i.e., what any good soldier does when ordered.

When a Democrat changes his or her mind, it's a "flip flop." Fascinating.

The last two elections STOLEN outright and nothing's been done about it!And the arogance of this administration.It's disgusting! It's IMPEACHMENT TIME is what it is.We need to arrest the top dogs and put them in a kennel where they belong.

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