Obama and Clinton vie for black vote

With so many people declaring they are running SOOOO early in the game. I have 2 things to state:

1) I do not want to hear about campaigns and "he said/she said" comments for a while. It's kind of like starting to decorate for Xmas in March.

2) I voted for Obama to be our Senator and represent us, and our views in the Senate. Just as I am sure those who voted for Hilary did the same. Why can't they focus on the job I helped them attain instead of travelling all over creation NOT doing their job?

They both may have lost my vote.

The appearances of Obama and Clinton in Selma provided some interesting and thought provoking contrasts, especially with respect to their backgrounds and claims to their careers having roots in the civil rights struggles. Obama gave a very succinct detailing of the connection between the events in the U.S. and the end of colonialism in Kenya. I hope that he puts to rest the notion that he has arrived at this point in time in ways that are different than the rest of Black America. It is important to remember, as he pointed out, that while captives brought to America were enslaved in another land, the Kenyans, on the other hand, were enslaved in their own country. They had no rights, and as illustrated by the story of his grandfather, were treated as inferiors by the white man. Such was the case in America.

The civil rights movement did help to boost the cause of women's liberation and eventually gay liberation. But there is a very distinct difference in what the two candidates can claim. By no stretch of the imagination can the plight of White women in this country be seen as similar to, or the same, as that of Black people. That White men dominated everybody goes without saying, but White women were always helpmates, or at the very least on the sidelines cheering. Their fight was to get out of the cheerleading role for their grandfathers, fathers, husbands, brothers, and uncles, and into the action. The benefits accruing to White women as participants in White male domination of this society are vast. The women's movement of the 60's helped to extend those benefits. It is evident that identity is not, and never will be, an issue with Clinton, but
the same may not be true, in the eyes of a lot of people, with Obama.

Where does Mike Dorning discuss Hillary talking like a poor black person in slang, bad grammar and accent and all?

George Allen calls someone "macacca," of which reporters had to research to know what it is, and yet Hillary talks like she just came out of a Huck Finn book and no mention of it at all!!

would'nt it be great if Clinton and Obama would run togheter as president,and vice president???Whew!!! what a new country this would be....

Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

Initially I thought that Obama has no future. "Wait a bit" I thought to myself about obama, but now I am 45% confident that Obama is moving there. He is full of inspiring and moving speeches. Is he really born of an african father?????

St. Barack, the New Messiah, told two whopping lies in his Selma speech.

His first whopper? That an airlift program of President Kennedy's brought Obama's father to the U.S.

Really? According to Obama’s first book, his father came over in 1959--two years before Kennedy became president--and his trip was paid for by "Kenyan leaders and American sponsors".

As for his parents getting together in part because of what was stirring from Selma, Bloody Sunday happened on March 7, 1965. Obama was born August 4, 1961.

Remember how Hillary Clinton once claimed that she was named after mountain climber Sir Edmind Hillary? It appears we have another politician using "truthiness" to embellish his ancestry.

So typical of Democrats - always playing the race card. They don't see people for who they are, only for what color they are. Obama is no more black than he is white! Why pander to the black vote? Instead of telling people how they are going to help them, why don't Hilary and Obama tell people what they are going to do to help the country? I'm so tired of the "here's what I'm going to get for you" kind of politics.

Bruce, your fact checking is a breath of fresh air! Unfortunately is basically goes for naught though. Loony Lefters hate facts.

[quote]
Bruce, your fact checking is a breath of fresh air! Unfortunately is basically goes for naught though. Loony Lefters hate facts.
Posted by: John D | Mar 5, 2007 9:09:17 AM
[/quote]

Wrong, John D; we love facts. Just like the FACT that NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS have been found in Iraq, 4 years after we invaded their country because our "Fearless Leader" said that they HAD NUCLEAR WEAPONS and we have to attack them before they attack us.

What I fail to understand is how the story of Obama's grandfather relates to his campaign. If he brings up this issue of how his grandfather was treated as a houseboy by the British he should also address the issue of his great-grandfather owning slaves. And if the story of his great-grandfather owning slaves is proven true then according to reparations arguements, would he owe an apology to society? The state of Virginia has apologized for the actions of their ancestors, will Obama apologize for the actions of his?

Soon Clinton will claim she is really half black too.......

Darre,

Lets see, wasn't it a democratic president that put the weight of the federal government behind the civil rights movement? And after congress, at the urging of Kennedy, acted to do the right thing, the Dixiecrats abandoned the party, the main reason the south is solidly republican today.

Today, those caring republicans do everything they can to suppress the black vote, as is well documented from recent elections.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oId=16368

And isn't it the republicans that are always playing the religious card? The dems are all godless, liberal, murderous scum. Is that about right? The republicans are all about morals and values and Ted Haggard, Oh, scratch the latter.

And speaking of "hears what I'm going to do for you" politics. Didn't Bush say he was going to be a uniter, not a divider. Calling your critics treasonous and friends of Al Qaeda, goes a long way towards achieving that goal.

Re: Darre--

"I'm so tired of the "here's what I'm going to get for you" kind of politics."

I don't think there is any other kind!

John D., I don't think it's a matter of 'hating facts.' I just don't think after some of the more major gaffes by administrations over the last several years, minutiae like that is going to dissuade a voter from casting their ballot for a particular candidate.

John D, since the Swamp reporters won't fact check Democrats, somebody's got to.

And where are those ACLU types who are normally so insistent on the so-called "separation of church and state" (which is in the 10 Commandments of the left, even if it isn't in the actual U.S. Constitution)?

Here are two presidential candidates giving speeches in churches, at "a service" (to quote the article). Illegal politicking by a tax-exempt body (the church), plus an exposure of Liberal hypocrisy on church and state, all in one package. But of course we are unworthy to cast doubt on the "New Messiah"--or is that now the "New Joshua"?

Guess Liberals think church politicking is ok when their fellow Liberals are doing it.

Bruce - Thanks for the post correcting BO. Facts are stubborn things.

Yesterday was a solemn day - those people did put it all on the line for their rights and they deserve to be remembered and honored.

Why the people there went rock star crazy for Bill Clinton is something I cannot understand and never will.

But they did.

Al Sharpton was there - surprise.
Question for him - what are your qualifications besides the color of your skin?

Speak up please - I can't hear you.

IN CONCLUSION

Since 1937 there has been a mission in Selma on Front Street run by the Edmundites, a Roman Catholic order.

afn&tt

Bruce, your fact checking is a breath of fresh air! Unfortunately is basically goes for naught though. Loony Lefters hate facts.

Posted by: John D | Mar 5, 2007 9:09:17 AM

Well, Bush and his neocon friends must certainly think so, after all the efforts they've gone to to hide, distort, and 'cook' the facts to get us into an unnecessary, and unwinnable war.

Bruce,

I won't argue on your first point. I too found it odd as soon as I heard him say it. Because I knew Obama's father came over at the very end of the Eisenhower administration. He was giving the speech extemporaneously at that point, so he might have gotten carried away (after all he was in Church). Additionally, he never called it an airlift program...lol

Who gets credit for the creation of the scholarship program that got his father here is unknown to me. I for one (also an immigrant) got to study in the US because my mother won a green card lottery program back in 1995. However I am not sure if it was the Clinton or Bush (41st) administration that started it. I do know that Clinton gets the credit in my household.

As for your second point. It is quite clear that Obama was referring to the whole civil rights movement. It is clear that he was giving credit to the civil rights movement culminating with the March in Selma and eventually the Civil Rights act, which allowed someone like him to achieve the kind of education he has. (That is what he meant by "his very existence" depended on the success of the movement)

I know you think he's full of bull and you don't particularly care for his politics, but I would like you to be fair. I have conceded that he misspoke on the Kennedy bit, but I know you are smart enough to realize that he meant the entire civil rights movement.

'Wale

One of my biggest pet peeves about many public people is that they present themselves differently depending on where they are. By this I mean "turning the black on." Oprah does it a lot and now I see Obama doing it too. Your ethnicity should not be turned on and off like a faucet. Obama's speech in that church looked like he was trying to imitate MLK. His normal mannerisms are not even close to what he tried to pull off in Alabama. It's insulting.

Did he seriously say that? Ugh, this is a particularly pandering case of truthiness.

BC, please tell me when the Bush administration said Iraq has NUCLEAR weapons! I would love to see something to back up your lie.

It's nice to see two new regular Loony Lefters here in the Swamp, DT and BC. Or are they more versions of John E.?

Hillary spoke to the crowds with a contrived southern twang,butif a Republican did that,all hell would break loose.
Paulo

I love it when conservatives use the term "truthiness" with no sense of irony. Unless they're re-appropriating it...?

"Did he seriously say that? Ugh, this is a particularly pandering case of truthiness."

Posted by: Jeff | Mar 5, 2007 10:58:38 AM

JeffBill,
Are you talking about when John McCain scoffed and said he never said Iraq would be easy despite the fact that he was on Meet the Press in the months leading up to the invasion of Iraq and said it would be easy and he agreed w/ Cheney and we would be greeted as liberators?

Bruce,

He clearly meant the entire civil rights movement which is why he made reference to BOTH Selma and Birmingham--a series of marches and protests that comprised the entire movement from 1955 to 1965. Relax, it's a speech to a church congregation not the State of the Union Address. Most politicians, including Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and yes even Lincoln embellished their childhoods and connections to critical periods in history for theatrical effect. That's the problem with the citizen of today...things of critical importance we should analyze we pay little attention to, but things that are completely inconsequential get unwarranted attention. What does it matter if he mis-spoke and gave Kennedy credit for his father's educational opportunity? Black folks give Clinton credit for a lot of stuff he didn't do. Can you tell me one measurable thing he did to warrant induction into the voting rights hall of fame? Nothing--It's symbolic. Just like Kennedy is symbolic of the civil rights movement eventhough it was Lyndon Johnson who implemented most of the policies. So what? The fact remains that the civil unrest by Blacks here in the US drew students from Africa and people of color around the world for freedom and opportunity. That is the point he was trying to make!

Heck, Sky, did you hear Hillary's black and southern drawl accent during her speech?? Does that mean she is now an Atlanta Braves fan and not longer a NY Yankees fan and no longer a Chicago Cubs fan? Are grits her favorite mean too, now? Things to ponder and Hillary becomes other people!

And I did notice Barack's change in speaking style and dialect during his speech. Guess he was trying to show that he is "black enough."

Every group in this country since the civil rights movement has stood on the shoulders of those in the civil rights movement. Women's ERA, the Hispanic rights movement, affirmative action (even tho white women proved to be more Judas than Peter), and the lists goes on. So Hillary is right to claim that she to is standing on those shoulders. The problem is you don't here white women or any other group admit it.
Gays and illegal immigrant teardo's admit it only when they want to use use it as a get out of trouble card. Saint Obama wants to use it the same way as everybody else. He didn't really get Black until he married Black. It took a southside Chicago sistah to introduce him to himself.

alan y,

Will you apologize for the actions of your's?

Your comments are so ridiculous and pedestrian.

Sky,

I wish I could agree with you. However you only need to attend a black church in the deep south to understand. The rythm truly gets you. Sometimes you have to catch yourself from switching your cadence. It's just the environment.

The great thing about the Democratic candidates is that whichever one wins the nomination,they will be less Liberal than the Republic Party's nominee Rudy.

On top of this the GOP "winner" will have the W/Darth Cheney monster to deal with.

Do they let them stump for them??
Either way will be bad for them.

08 will be worse than 06 was for the Wingnut Party.

Obama has my vote. In his Selma speech he stated that life begins at conception. I'm a one issue voter, if you don't respect the life of unborn babies, I don't vote for you. Thanks Obama for taking the pro-life stance.

Reverse the situation yesterday from Democrats to Republicans. Can you imagine the outrage there would be:

1) Campaigning in a church. Republicans would get smashed in the media as ignoring the separation of church and state. Democrats are heroes and wonderful when they blatantly ignore the separation of church and state. I am all for the separation of church and state in regards to coming into a church and campaigning, no one should be campaiging in a place of worship. It's just a shame that the Democrats are allowed to, Republicans are not.

2) Hillary and Obama putting on a fake, black southern drawl. A Republican candidate would be called insensitive, ignorant, racist, and condesending and it would be front page news. Two Democrats do it, and it isnt even mentioned in the main stream liberal news media.

Dawn,
should I apologize? My ancestors were in work camps during WWII, hence not in this country at the time, making the whole issue of reparations INAPPLICABLE to me, and 100% of today's society since we were not alive during that time. Do you agree that the idea of Virginia of apologizing for slavery is "ridiculous and pedestrian"? If our individual history is inapplicable why would Obama even speak of his grandfather other than to gain sympathy and votes. Obama needs to focus on today's issues not on the past.

I find it totally disgusting that certain 2008
Presidential Candidates on both the Democrat and
Republican side can find time to fly to a Civil
Rights Event at a Black Church like Sen Barack
Obama and Armed Forces Committee Member Senator
Hilliary Clinton,but not find time to get their
lazy arses over to Walter Reed Army Medical Center
to find out the problems in person is unacceptable
and totall digusts me with both Clinton and Obaam!
As it also does that GOP 2008 Republican
Presidenital Candidates and Members of The Armed
Forces Committes Sen Amnesty John McCain and
Congressman Duncan Hunter,who are both ranking
Democrat Members of The Senate And House Armed
Services Committes can go run off over to Big
GOP Func Raisers instead of goin in person to
find out the problems at Walter Reed Army Medical
Center! So I ask Obama,Clinton,McCain and Hunter
as well as Commander in Chief George W Bush and
Vice Screw Up & Halliburton's Man In The Bush
White House Dick Cheney Is This How You Clowns
Support Our Troops? If so then all of you are
totally unfit to hold an elective office,let
alone that of President or Vice President of
the United States! It's time to Impeach Bush
And Cheney And Time Congressional Presidential
Candidates Resign From Congress Since They All
Clearly Are Not Doing Their Jobs We Elected Them
To Do! I Bet This Never Gets In The Swamp based
on the lack of coverage on the Walter Reed Mes
by The Chicago Tribune which is a newpaperthat
has forgot how to do Investigative Reporting
Unlike The Washington Post Courageous Coverage
Of The Horrible Conditions at WRAMC and The VA!

I'll give HRC fifty dollars if she will promise to stop SCREAMING EVERY TIME SHE GETS IN FRONT OF A MICROPHONE!!! I realize she's HERE TO TELL PEOPLE SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT ABOUT SOME EVENT OR HER FEELINGS OR HOW SHE'S SO EXCITED TO BE TALKING TO US, but for the love of God can't she tone it down a bit?

Also, "He didn't really get Black until he married Black. It took a southside Chicago sistah to introduce him to himself. Posted by: Pamela | Mar 5, 2007 12:07:31 PM"

I try to avoid personal arguements on these blogs, but, Pamela, you make me sick. They seem to have a loving marriage, a real partnership, but you have to make it about winning. Get over yourself, sistah.

And Darre "So typical of Democrats - always playing the race card. They don't see people for who they are, only for what color they are."

Yes, those pesky Dems and their Willie Horton ads...always playing the race card. Good thing there are no racist Republicans.

Idiot.

And Jason, "I voted for Obama to be our Senator and represent us, and our views in the Senate. Just as I am sure those who voted for Hilary did the same. Why can't they focus on the job I helped them attain instead of travelling all over creation NOT doing their job? They both may have lost my vote."

Good, then you and eight other people can sign up with Ralph Nader when he announces his candidacy three weeks before the election.

Pamela,

Obama did not get "Black" by marrying Michelle. She gives him major urban cred but by no means did he get "black" by marrying her. You forget that he spent three years ('85 - '88) in the southside of chicago projects working as a community organizer. Prior to that he lived in Harlem for 2 years while at Columbia. He himself has said he got more education about life from those streets than any education Columbia or Harvard could have ever given him.

It is time to find out the source of the negative information being distributed about Obama, re:his ancestors and his schooling. Who has an immediate motive? This type of politics is very unseemly.

Alan,

relax, he was speakin in a church that is a major cornerstone of the civil rights movement embedded in history. Jeez, thats why he spoke about his past.

I just saw the video and I have NEVER heard Obama talk like that in my life before and I've watched a lot of his speeches. Wow, and they have the nerve to say the Republicans pander. I can't wait to hear Hillary's phony Southern drawl. Can she "git her a huntin' license?"

Dawn,

Lyndon Johnson was also inducted (posthumously). Clinton was one of 4 inductees.

Also let me tell you wy Clinton gets tons of credit from the black community. It's simple. During his administration a sizeable portion of Black America got lifted into the middle class. Tons of blacks became economically empowered. Need I remind you during the Clinton Administration, we basically had 8 uninterrupted years of econmic growth, peace and prosperity. Yes he cut welfare (in a compromise to the new Republican controlled congress), but I actually agreed with that move. His administration created an environment that allowed a lot of Blacks to become self-sustaining. Never in the history of America had more blacks owned homes than under Bill Clinton, believe it or not that has reversed under George Bush (let me know if you want the raw numbers). And what is the American dream, if not to own a home? I could go on and on. There's causality for everything. Clinton is loved by the black community for lots of reasons.

Hillary is a different case all together though.

Typical liberal media.

You ignored Bush and Cheney's tribute to the march.

They were speaking to the Sheriff Department's k-9 unit.

"Need I remind you during the Clinton Administration, we basically had 8 uninterrupted years of econmic growth, peace and prosperity."

So many places to go with this statement. We now know the economy was fraudulently propped up by companies like WorldCom and Enron that were misreporting earnings well back into the mid 90s. The part that wasn't illegally reported? It was rah rah dotcom funny money that probably never existed in the first place.

How was there "peace" when Clinton was President? There certainly wasn't any in Iraq because he bombed Iraq on three different occasions (particularly when he needed a perversion diversion). Was there peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Repeating a lie does not change it to the truth. The prosperity of the Clinton years was largely a lie borne CEO and politician hubris. We had a known liar in the oval office and based on the example of his leadership every CEO and corporate leader figured they could lie to their employees, too. Only the hard work of people like Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulsen kept this country from having a worse post-Clinton hangover. We all owe them a debt of gratitude for putting our economy back onto the standard of real dollars and not phony baloney.

p.s. I'm sorry about all the people (black, white, purple or green) who lost their homes after the dot-com bubble burst, but the people they should really be upset with are the corporate and political leaders who essentially convinced them that money grows on trees.

My college thesis,written in 1967, gave the history of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment and served to give me an insight
to the history of race relations and the government actions related to such an important subject. Having grown up in a segregated area of Chicago, I was accustom to racial intolerance and received little support for my evolving views. Fortunately, I married into an enlightened family and saw our children grow up among people of many racial backgrounds.
It is my preference that Senator Obama become our next president because he has shown an ability to interact with people of diverse backgrounds and to secure their support. It is my hope that this campaign will not be marked by the hateful views of those of little tolerance.

with all due respect - one of the most important keys to understanding "truth" is to understand real cause and effect and to understand that you have to realize that association is in no way proof of cause and effect

I've said it before and believe adamantly (as anyone who understands logic and reads history should attest) ....

..... most politicians take way too much credit (or take too much blame) for the economic good (or bad) that happens on their watch

.... simultaneously .... most politicians take too little blame (or get too little credit) for the defence/foreign policy events that happen on their watch

there are exceptions of course, I cannot endorse republicans for a number of reasons BUT the minorities in the US need to stop accepting the pandering of democratic candidates -- because that is all it is -- a pandering pack of lies

the reason this is bad for the nation is that when pandering, the candidates are far from color blind

color-blindness of the races can one day be achieved if we stop drawing attention to it constantly

life isn't fair -- no matter your color -- to endlessly pretend that every unfair thing that happens to a minority is due to racism or sexism or homophobia is a recipe certain to produce INEQUALITY and greater unfairness (institutionalized, in fact)

it's time we realize that we "minorities" (for lack of a better word) really are the equals in talent to our non-minority peers and therefore rarely need any extra help from outside -- when we convince ourselves that we always need help, we convince ourselves that we are not worthy of "equal" opportunity

the civil rights movement was clearly bipartisan

whites fought a war under Lincoln (republican) to preserve this union for blacks and whites and all other colors

my sister was in Selma yesterday

she believes most blacks take Obama much more seriously than Hillary

Listen to Hillary yesterday. What a joke and the LIBune cannot even mention this. Gee, I wonder why?

http://www.ifilm.com/profile/breitbart/video/2829104

"Wrong, John D; we love facts. Just like the FACT that NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS have been found in Iraq, 4 years after we invaded their country because our "Fearless Leader" said that they HAD NUCLEAR WEAPONS and we have to attack them before they attack us."

And you forgot why we went to Iraq...it was Iraq throwing out inspectors ordered there by the UN. It was Saddam's failure to account for munitions and materials that we already knew he had.

Just like a liberal...short memory, no facts and
full of hatred...

That is awesome, John D. I was searching the net and couldn't find a link. C'mon libune, post this in the Swamp story.

I like what obamais doing I could vote for him if he doesn't fall back to his muslim relgion background. That is what we are fighting right now in Iraq, with all of dsthe suicide bombings.

"So many places to go with this statement. We now know the economy was fraudulently propped up by companies like WorldCom and Enron that were misreporting earnings well back into the mid 90s. The part that wasn't illegally reported? It was rah rah dotcom funny money that probably never existed in the first place.
Posted by: Jeff | Mar 5, 2007 1:22:40 PM"

Hum Jeff. I CLEARLY said "during the Clinton Administration" I never said Bill Clinton himself caused any of these things to happen.

Funny that both Bernie Ebbers (worldcom founder) and Kenneth Lay (Enron Founder) were both Leading Republican donors, but you want to blame Clinton for setting a bad example for these CEO's. Are you serious? Are you realy serious?

Fact is Blacks (and all Americans) enjoyed economic prosperity under Bill Clinton. No "if's" or "but's" about it. I don't care how it happened. Fact is it happened under Clinton. Heck should Reagan get credit for the fall of the Soviet Union, or was it all those years (since the 50's) of irresponsible budget allocations (ignoring other aspects of their economy) towards their military that finally brought the Soviet empire to its knees. Fact is Reagan gets credit. No arguments. Just fact.

The War's in Bosnia, Genocide in Rwanda and other worldy events of the ilk, occured overseas, not here. So sorry your argument doesn't fly with me. There was domestic peace in the United States for 8 years under Clinton. Fact.

"We all owe them a debt of gratitude for putting our economy back onto the standard of real dollars and not phony baloney."

LOL, now you're getting funny. If anyone deserves any credit it's Alan Greenspan. That much I'll give you. Leave Bernanke and Paulson out of it. If it wasn't for Bush's "Permanent Tax Cuts" during a time of war that's cost us half a Trillion dollars (money mostly borrowed from the Chinese) so far, we wouldn't owe the Chinese squat. But nooooo!! Bush and the rest of his cronies have basically made our economy completely liable to whatever goes on in China.
Just last week the Chinese Stock market hiccupped, consequently the NASDAQ/DOW was sent into a tizzy. So don't give me that Paulson, Bernanke ballony. Paulson was recently brought to deal with this Chinese quagmire the US now finds itself in, because of his expertise working with the Chinese.

Look, I'm all for arguments based on logic and facts but don't make statements that aren't solidly founded.

I see now--Obama wasn't telling a fib when he said that the Selma march across the bridge (in 1965) caused him to be born (in 1961). It's not a fib, he claims, it's him speaking "metaphorically".

Leaving aside the bizarreness of The New Joshua's claiming the Selma march somehow caused his parents to conceive (I'll leave that for psychologists to ponder), we should all appreciate how The New Joshua has liberated us from telling the truth. Lie all you want, sayeth The New Joshua, and if you get caught in the lie, just say you were speaking "metaphorically" and that makes everything ok.

The New Joshua hath spoken.

"and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"

trivia ;

who at the Swamp knows who said that ???????

Alan Y,

My ancestors were African, Indian and White. Obviously, my White ancestors owned my Black ancestors, but my Indian ancestors may very well have owned my Black ancestors. Should I apologize to myself? Of course not! No descendent of slaveholders are responsible for the actions of their ancestors, so relax the slave police aren't coming for you. . However, the foundation of this country's growth and stability is slavery and for that this country owes a debt of gratitude and, Yes, an apology--not from individual American citizens, but the Country. I am a resident of VA, a 5th generation African American resident of Arlington, VA--the cite of the first freeman's settlement after the civil war. There are reminders of the confederacy all around. I have to travel up Jefferson Davis Highway every single day, but guess what? Most of the residents living along Jefferson Davis highway are recent immigrants from Latin American, Asia and Africa. That's remarkable progress, but it doesn't erase the fact that if not for slavery, VA would not have flourished and neither would this country, so a thank you and apology to the memory of slave is in order.

Wale,

You're wrong! Black homeownership has increased under the Bush adminsitration, not declined. Wealth bulding during the 90's was the product of economic policies that benefitted all Americans; they were not exclusive to African Americans. The ranks of the middle class grew across the racial spectrum. You seem to forget that 400,000 more African American men were imprisoned under the Clinton Adminsitration than the Bush Adminstration because of his failure to reverse mandatory drug sentencing laws. Save the Clinton Great White Savior crap!

Exactly Bruce. Now you get it! Attaboy!!

Bruce,

A five minute Internet search revealed that in fact Kennedy did sponsor what the US Embassy official web site calls the "famous Kennedy Kenyan airlift" in 1960. Not only did Obama's father benefit from it, but so did Wangari Maathai, the first female African Nobel Prize winner.

Republicans are desperate if the only criticims about Obama they can come up w/ is how he speaks and not what he says. Why not take one his message? The only counterpoints to not voting for him your party has come up w/ is he talks funny, he has big ears, his middle name is Hussein, his first name sounds like Osama, his half brother is a Muslim, and his mother is white. All valid points if you are the lowest common denominator of society.

"I was born a poor black man."

Steve Martin, from "The Jerk"

A little non-partisan humor. Just trying to lighten things up a bit.

to Dawn - that is a thoughtful editorial and obviously heartfelt

but it is also a bit over the top

if you follow your ancestry back far enough you will "obviously" reach a point where one of your ancestors was "owned" by a person of color

also you cannot point to anything anywhere that was not somehow a byproduct of someone taking advantage of another somewhere

feudalism

communism

fascism

and yes, slavery all have their monuments to those events

and in the case of slavery, some of these institutions were long in existence before the United States ever existed

just EXACTLY when CAN minorities stop blaming all whites in America for something SOME Virginians did WELL over a century ago ??

bruce,
When did Obama's mother remarry? Before he was born or after he was born?

Why does Obama present himself as a black candidate when his mother was white. He should refer to himself as a half black candidate or even a white candidate.

What has Obama done for the citizens of Illinois? Nothing.

Since he got elected he has toured Africa, toured the U.S. on a book tour and hung out with Oprah.

He also admits to have smoked crack cocaine, his mother's family owned slaves, and that he is curiuos about gays.

This guy gets way too much adoration from the wimps in the press.

Tom,

"Over the top"? Forgive the pun, considering the subject, but that's truly the pot calling the kettle Black. I said more than once in my post that White Americans today are not responsible for slavery and have NO burden to bear. The problem seems to be that you are taking on that burden of guilt when no one is asking you to.

Dawn -

Sorry but you're wrong on this one. Home ownsership had median house hold income both decreased under Bush relative to the growth rates under Clinton (Home ownership dropped from 1.94% to 0.37%). It's still a net positive under Bush but that's because it was so damned high under Clinton. I'm not trying to paint Clinton as a Saviour. Just the facts ma'am. Just the facts.

It's all in the details. As far as Mandatory drug sentencing laws go - has Bush repealed them?

Thing is Home Ownership has steadily been on the rise, ever since that statistic has been tabulated (1947). But the growth rate has fallen significantly under Bush. Of course Bush still has 2 years to catch-up.

Look if you want to argue, give me numbers. Here are some for you:

Study this graph:

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=107&subsecID=295&contentID=252964

to dawn, who said I am white ???

(I believe wholeheartedly you wrote a great editorial but you seemed to retract some of the great stuff you wrote just before the end)

Bruce -

While I originally agreed with you thinking Obama had exagerrated the Kennedy portion of his story. I now have to recant my statements. But by God Obama was telling the truth!!! The Kennedy's were involved (or actually started the program) before JFK became President in 1961. Whoa!! I'm ashamed for not researching before doubting Obama. His father was part of the very first airlift in 1959. The Kennedy's were wealthy enough to sponsor it I guess. Here are two exerpts I found:

"Despite this grim background, she was the rare Kenyan girl allowed to attend school. She excelled under the tutelage of strict Catholic nuns and won the chance, in 1960, to study biology at Mount St. Scholastica College in Atchison, Kan., as part of the "Kennedy Airlift," a program to transport African students to the United States pushed by the then-senator and paid for by his family. In 1964, she began graduate studies in biology at the University of Pittsburgh and later became, she writes, the first woman in East and Central Africa to earn a doctorate. "

"And then, one foundation, the Kennedy Foundation with their friends, agreed that while you may get a scholarship, you also need the money to buy the tickets to come. And so we were offered a whole aircraft to carry students from Nairobi to the United States. It was the most magnificent thing that really started the close relations between America and Kenya in the field of education. That was in 1959, then another airlift in 1960, another airlift in 1961. So we had three airlifts that formed the hard core of our public service, their personnel, our future chief executives, and, although we have continued to send more and more students to this country, that was the time when we needed those students most, and American universities and colleges gave them to us. "

and here's a couple of links:

http://www.friendsofkenya.org/BobBooksFeb07

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/conversations/Kiano/kiano2.html

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:1dHUS3juZPsJ:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n8_v9/ai_21207881+history+of+the+kenya+kennedy+airlift&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

Either of them is way better than the Republican president!! It's still beyond my comprehension how Bush managed to stay in the white house for 8 years. No more Republicans.

"just EXACTLY when CAN minorities stop blaming all whites in America for something SOME Virginians did WELL over a century ago ??"

Thanks Tom but lets not leave out the West Virginians either. Yes, the democratic memory is as short. Let not forget the longest filibusterer of that very 1964 Civil Rights Act...You guessed right! The conscience of the Senate, Senator Robert Byrd.

Jethro -

if I were you, I wouldn't ask Bruce for any facts, he's not reliable. I believed him when he said Obama lied about the timing of the Kennedy airlift. Turns out (after doing some of my own research) that Obama was teling the truth and the Kennedy's started the airlift program before JFK became President.

Obama's Mother remarried in early 1967 when Obama was 6 years old. They moved to Indonesia where Obama spent 4 years from 1967 to 1971.

Tom,

That's from the Bible - John 8:32 - You can see it at the entrance to the CIA headquarters as well.

My goodness--some of you certainly have enough time on your hands!!

"He should refer to himself as a half black candidate or even a white candidate."

Posted by: edbabulski | Mar 5, 2007 2:46:36 PM

You would take a candidate with black skin seriously if he/she said he/she was white? What a joke. The Civil Rights Movement was a response to discrimination based on skin color. The KKK didn't ask to see your family tree before they burned a cross in your yard. If your skin was black you were inferior.

So it's an actual numbers vs. growth rate argument? Fair enough. However you measure it, minority home ownership is at an all time high, with the fastest rising demographic being Latinos who have better closed the gap with Whites than African Americans despite having lower median incomes than African Americans. My point stands that all of the great things that Bill Clinton did for the African American Community is anecdotal, not measurable. Undoubtedly, we've received residual benefits from his moderate Democratic policies, but I think we as Community tend to give him far more credit than he deserves. And you're right, Bush didn't repeal mandatory drug sentencing laws, but he never promised to, unlike Clinton. He has never pretended to be sympathetic to the plight of African Americans, but Bill Clinton mastered the illusion of feeling our pain, but not solving many problems. Here we are disecting if both Senators Obama and Clinton were being harmlessly "EXTRA" in their speeches yesterday, but non one remembers Bill Clinton blatantly pandering to lingering racist White Southern attitudes when he was campaigning. Remember him attending the execution of Black retarded man just to show he was no non-sense with Black criminals? Remember him posing in front a group of Black prisoners with former Senator Nunn for the same reason? And do you know who William Fulbright is? The person Clinton regularly mentioned on the campaign trail as one of his closest friends and mentor AND a known segregationist. Everything that glitters 'ain't gold, but you know how we love the bling.

"Wale", if you want to try and refute Dale about what is happening in 2007, or what has happened in the 2001-2007 Bush presidency, don't link to a 2004 "study" with data that stops at 2003, and which counts the year 2000 (when Clinton was still president) as a "Bush" year. A "study" that is both out of date, and laughably incorrect. Just a suggestion.

Wale, you're cherry-picking different parts of my argument. I gave credit to Alan Greenspan as well as Bernanke and Paulsen.

FACT: Worldcom and Enron both misstated their earnings well back into the 1990s. I don't care who their leaders gave political donations to. When Ken Lay went crying to Bush for help when his scam started to unravel Bush told him there's nothing I can do for you. Both Enron and Worldcom leaders are in jail today, so clearly their contributions (and they gave to Democrats, too) didn't buy them any leniency.

FACT: The first World Trade Center bombing happened under Clinton's watch and he refused to prosecute it as a military action. The same can be said of the North African Embassy bombings and the U.S.S. Cole. No one knows if a stronger response would've disrupted the Al Qaeda plan that was planned for years under Clinton and Sandy Berger's watch, but to suggest we had "domestic peace" under Clinton is just a ridiculous fallacy. We do know that Berger had a chance to eliminate Bin Laden and he refused to act. We also know he stole documents from the national archive after he left office. I wonder what he was trying to hide?

FACT: The war in Bosnia was prosecuted outside of the UN through NATO because Clinton and his SecState, Madeleine Albright, pushed for it. In fact, it was Clinton's use of NATO in Bosnia that gave the Bush Administration a precedent for circumventing the UN to start the second Iraq war.

FACT: Black homeownership has increased under Bush, not declined. You're now changing your argument to say that it "increased more" under Clinton. But this isn't a zero-sum game. Bush had to deal with Sept. 11, the economic mess left by Enron and other crooks that Clinton's justice department turned a blind eye to and every other economic mess. Heck, everyone looks tall if you compare them to Rhea Perlman.

As far as advancment of African-Americans goes Bush has appointed more people of color to cabinet-level positions than ANY previous President (including Clinton). It would be nice if he were given credit for it once or twice.

I'm not saying Bush's economic policies are all sound, believe me. I'd love to see some spending cuts somewhere to offset those tax cuts. But to say that Clinton was this economic savior when he presided over eight years of a blessed economy that burst shortly after he left office is a bit of a stretch.

on further review, (to dawn)

I apologize that I misread some of your comment - I see now you were agreeing with the virginia official apology (as do I) when I first thought you were demanding an apology from the prior posting based on the phraseolgy

sorry

All,

Wow... In this day and age is it still all about color. Does it matter whether you are black or white? Does it even mean anything to be American? Why are polotician looking for a certain type of peoples vote raher than looking for the vote of all the people. By making a distiction in the first place between races is what causes the seperation. I am a person, does it matter what color my skin is? If everything was based on a persons character rather than there race I think we would truly see improvement in the racial divide.

Just my thoughts!

And after the cameras leave, Hillary and Barack, slap each other on the back and laugh all the way to the bank with the bags of money they collected over the weekend!

Keep posting the nasty stuff Hillary and Barack are lovin' it!

Hilary's Southern drawl was very funny (aka Madonna and her fake British accent). I guess Hilary must have come from the South Side of Park Ridge! If anything really bad comes out about Obama in the future- it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it comes from her camp. Boy, you can tell she is nervous.

I'm no fan of Obama either. I look at this as the new version of The Emperor's New Clothes - everyone is watching him giving Ooooohs and Ahhhhs, but sooner or later someone will speak up and say "Wait a minute - he is wearing nothing after all."

It is not fair to necessarily comment about his heritage, although if he is going to use it to his advantage - he will have to face the heat. Didn't his father leave, or shall I say abandon, his mother and him when he was a child? Why, that would never happen in today's society. The only thing Obama has done for Chicago's south side is his yearly attendance to the Bud Billikan parade.
See you then Barack!

Nicely put Jeff. No arguments.

Phoney is as phoney does. OB is taking lessons from the greatest Phoney of them all. I think OB should resign his Senate seat as he is not doing any work there so he can try the big pond.

Wale,

You've made some excellent contributions here. Just a question, can bean-counters include the plethora of no/low interest (nothing paid on principle) loans that are in abundance now (25% is a figure I've seen), as creating new "home-ownership"? Just wondering.

Dawn,

"Politics is as Politics does" I guess. As they say "perception is reality". And Clinton is perceived to have "measurably" done more for African-Americans than any other President in American history.

And Jeff,

I agree that Clinton was a little soft on terror (or at least did not pay it enough attention), but who knew that the terrorists would have the audacity to crash the towers like that? Do you not think the intelligence community (NSA,CIA...etc) are more to blame? What is your stance on the Iraq war (immediately after 911 vs. now)?

"laughably incorrect"

Come on Bruce. If you want me to provide numbers that reflect 2004 - 2007, I'll happily do it, but it only paints the Bush administration in a worse light economically.

hey Dan,

at risk of sounding nit-picky,

my question was,

"who" said it (you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free ???)

(I know where MLK found the reference - I am asking - "who" was MLK quoting ?????)

"...it was Iraq throwing out inspectors ordered there by the UN. "

Umm, no.

The inspectors were back into Iraq when Bush decided to attack. They were requesting more time to work. Bush ignored them.

The many divergent perspectives notwithstanding, this is one of the more intelligent board discourses that I have reviewed in a long time.

The horrific indignities of slavery were so vast that no one race or culture is fully accountable or excused. I therefore think it of greater import to focus on current and future issues that can be best achieved through unity and collaboration.

As a former Illinois resident and Republican, I am open to switching party lines during the next election... as long as it isn't Hillary!!!

Since Senators Clinton and Obama are devoting all of their time to running for President in 2008, then they cannot do their jobs as Senator and should resign immediately.

Wale, it's my belief that Bush has squandered the opportunity to lead this country into a new age of prosperity by refusing to balance the budget. We continue to see him push to make the tax cuts permanent yet he refuses to cut spending accordingly. Sure, cutting spending is never popular but the fiscal conservatives would support him if even made AN ATTEMPT to do it when his party controlled both Houses of Congress.

If Bush would have done more with the compliant Congress we wouldn't have the economic and political mess we have today. I fear it's a failure that will hurt our party for a long time.
Any conservative knows that you can't spend your way to prosperity and by creating more government agencies while still cutting taxes that's what he tried to do. No fiscal conservative will come out on election day to support that. The failure is even more unexcusable considering he had a Congress that he could essentially lead.

I do agree that CIA/NSA was much more responsible for falling asleep at the wheel on Bin Laden than any administration or politician. That doesn't excuse our elected leaders, but I just think the shortcomings of the intelligence were more egregious.

Anybody who's read the 9/11 Report obviously knows that the "career killers" in CIA and FBI prevented any real meaningful interaction between our federal intelligence, military intelligence and criminal investigation agencies. I want to believe the new structure featuring the Director of National Intelligence fixed the problem but the jury's still out.

The Iraq war is a mess just like it was about six months after we started it. It's cost us good faith abroad and way too many American lives because of the mistakes of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld (not securing the border, trying to fight the war with a "lighter, faster" Army).

While I don't believe that the intelligence that predicated the war was trumped up by the administration, any thinking person has to admit it was wrong in every way. This type of global intelligence failure is simply unacceptable and symptomatic of why the intelligence community needed such an overhaul.

All that being said, we have to place a stable democracy in Iraq now for the good of the people of Iraq and the stability of the region. Much more than our national reputation, and that's no small measure itself, is on the line. The consequences of failure are now simply too great to even think about.

some of my comments went into cyberspace ....

one of which was apologizing to dawn for being hypercritical of her after misreading one of her postings

but well said, V!

(and p.s. - did anyone ever answer - WHO was MLK quoting when he said, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" ????

Tom, that quote was said by Jesus Christ, the guy that the secularists want kept out of public life.

amen brother,

preach it !!!

Billy/Jeff, we don't want Jesus kept out of public life.

We want him out of our kids Science books and out of our political decisions.

I've been enjoying watching John McCain flipflop all over the place on this issue,how about you Bill ??