Bush: Family values cross Rio Grande

I know it's a bit off-topic... but John McCain is on the front page of Yahoo! today and he's walking around another anesthetized Baghdad Market today. What the???? How much money are we going to spend and how many soldiers lives do we have to risk for this guy to get photo-ops?

Does having John McCain pose for photographers in a flak jacket in a Baghdad Market do anything practical in our struggle in Iraq?

Let's all watch conservatives torpedo any chances of a Republican win the White House by alienating the Hispanic vote with their "throw them all out" approach towards immigration reform.

Before all the nonsense begins, let me state clearly that the ONLY solution to the immigration issue is for the U.S. to get out of Mexican politics.

So long as the U.S. continues to meddle in Mexico's internal political affairs, that country will not develop. So long as it does not develop and to the extent that the U.S. cooperates in supporting the political class that allows presidents to run off with the country's wealth, ALL Mexicans have an inalienable right to cross the border. After all, if the U.S. wants to meddle in Mexico's affairs, that, by extension, makes Mexico a part of the U.S. and the U.S. a part of Mexico.

What if we actually did something about enforcing the laws on businesses that employ illegals? Would people still want to enter this county illegally if they knew there wouldn't be work available to them?

Bud:
Its a nice thought, not messing around in Latin American politics, but the reality is knocking around & intimidating Latin American Governments is almost a national past-time here in the USA. We've only been practicing & perfecting it for something like 200 years, you think we are going to give it up now?

Yep, I'm in the 'throw them all out' group. Does anybody with a brain really think that all of the illegals will voluntarily leave the country, pay a bunch of money, thencome back in? Why should they - they can just stay in the shadows like they are since our government obviously won't do a damn thing to them and taxpayers are here to support them.

Linda,

I don't claim to have a good solution to this problem but could you enlighten me as to how we would logistically deport 12 million people.

Linda,
Who do you think is gonna pay for the gas to put 12 million people on buses and planes??

Having lived within 100 miles of the Mexican border all my life until moving to Chicago in 2006, I can tell you definitively that "increased border security" means absolutely nothing. It's hard for anyone outside of the Southwest to grasp the sheer size and emptiness of much of the border region. We could quadruple Border Patrol and it would barely make a dent.

If we truly want to keep illegal immigrants, from Latin American or Eastern Europe or Ireland or Jamaica or anywhere out (and I'm not sure corporate America/our government really does), the only way is to go after employers with giant fines, require and scrutinize papers at job sites, hospitals, and schools, and then accept the bad publicity of turning away illegal immigrants and their children from work and services.

Frankly, I'm all for it, and I'm a far leftie. However, I'm willing to actually pay more for goods and services provided by and to citizens. It would be interesting to see if: a) things really would cost more; and b)if the obvious gap in the American labor market would really be "filled in" by all those claiming that illegal immigrants are taking their jobs.

Are the American people ready to look bad to the world (as if we already don't...now may be an ideal time to put this plan in to action, as we could hardly look worse) AND to pay more for their services? That's the real question.

Why should we allow any of the illegals immigrants stay? They have already broken one US law - hence "illegal" - what is preventing them from committing another more serious crime then running back to Mexico (or wherever they're from) to avoid prosecution?

Once we find them, we should put them on a one-way train back home or in prison. Breaking the law should be punished, not an open invite to live in our country.

Dear RomanB:

Why do you think a Rebublican victory is more inportant than supporting th best policies?

If a party is wrong, then it needs to change or die.

Perhaps both the Republicans and the Democrates are wrong?

The taxpayers will obviously have to pay to deport them - in the long run, it'll still be cheaper to pay for gas than support their ILLEGAL butts. And quite frankly, I don't care how it's done - let villages/cities/municipalities with "overcrowding" problems (read 14 illegals living in a two bedroom house) start kicking doors and rounding them up. I'm sick and tired of paying their way.

How about first solve LEGAL immigrants issues? I stood in line for 10 years and came here legally, however, my wife is still not with me because the LAW won't allow her. She has to wait for a visa to be available, however, she can come and stay here illegaly if she chooses to which we dont.

The only reason is that I followed the LEGAL path. IF Mr. Bush gives illegals everything while overlooking legal immigrants, it will be shame for people who follow the law.

Why does everyone think illegals are only of Mexican Background?
Have you seen how many other people there are who are here illegally and aren't MEXICAN??? Russians, Poles and other Eastern European countries!

What is needed to slow the flow of illegals are the following 3 things:
1) Many more border patrol agents along the border.
2) Amend the Constitution so that anchor babies aren't automatic citizens
3) Stiff fines on employers who hire illegals. Maybe 100k per each illegal.

Bush is no Republcian and he is selling out this country. For example, in additon to the 12 to 20 million illegals wanting amnesty, most of them have relatives who will also be getting amnesty once these 12 to 20 million get it. This could push the total up to 150 million more people in a few years. And given our unemployment rate is less than 5%, what are all these people going to do while they collect trillions in social benefits? And Bush is aware that around 60 to 70% of hispancs typically vote democratic. Once these people are in and voting, it'll be the end of conservative Republicans in politics.

The perfect economic storm seems to be brewing:
1) Tens of millions of new immigrants who won't have jobs.
2) Manufacturing and other jobs moving overseas.
3) Low wage earners competing for higher paying jobs which will lower the wages of these jobs.
4) Massive and severe changes in the economy if changes are made based on global warming.

Mark

Bubba,contract it out to HALIBURTON!

Linda,

You are a stupid american! They are people, not animals.

They are the same as your great grandparents that came from somewhere for a better life.

And who WANTS to be a migrant farm worker?! I live in an agricultural area that has a large mobile Latino population. These people work HARD for jobs no Whitey would do, even if it paid white collar wages. They already suffer socially and emotionally, moving constantly to follow the various harvests. Read "The Grapes of Wrath." Not much has changed. Like your fresh fruits and veggies? Someone has to plant, nurture and pick them.

Honestly, this is one issue that Bush might be right about. He's compromised with the hardline Conservatives, who want strict border security, but at the same time he has acknowledged that deporting 12 million people is simply not possible, and it's not going to happen. We need to accept the fact that the illegal immigrants are here, and most of them are already working and making money, albeit under the table. Why not make them legal and give them hope for citizenship? That means they'll have to pay taxes while they're here - something that they're not doing now.

No nation in the history of the world that lost control of its own borders stayed in business as a nation for more than 50 years after that. We lost control of our southern border about 25 years ago. A political entity by definition is able to make and enforce a distinction between insiders and outsiders. A democratic republic or any other political entity is thus distinguided from a mere place, a badlands, a catch as catch can free fire zone. The U.S. is teetering on the edge of losing its will be exist as a nation. It's just too hard. We don't have the gumption for it, or the resources, or the political capital, or the energy. All persons who are not legally in the USA should not be in the USA. If this means spending money for gasoline or aviation fuel to repatriate them, then just do it. We can find $500 Billion to squader in Iraq, but not enough to send illegals home. We've lost our way. Leadership is required. If not today, when? If not you, who?

Why are they coming here, when all of our jobs are going south and to the east?

Plus, they don't have to pay taxes on any money they earn for 7 years, that is if they come over here legally in the first place.

Linda asks "how we would logistically deport 12 million people?" Mexico deports 5-million illegal immigrants during 2005... so it can be done.

One-by-one ... shackle them, strip-them of their assets, and march them to the Rio Grande for 1st time offenders... repeats offenders will spend life on a foreign military installation doing latrine duty or pots & pans duty for the rest of their lives, never to see loved ones again.

Who will pay?

Americans - until a politician is elected who will stand-up to Latin American country leaders and order them to end this nonsensze and pay our country $500-billion / year (collectively) ... even if it requires huge taxes on its citizens ...

We in Oregon pay about 18%-to-20% of our state's $11-billion two-year budget on public benefits for illegal immoigrants. Public benefits like SECTION-8 housing; Welfare; Low-income utility subsidies; K-12 education; non-emergency health care; etc. All required by federal mandates... and it all adds up to about $1.2-billion / year.

And the state of Oregon does not come close to seeing $1.2-billion in benefits from the production working illegal immigrants generate and spend. Maybe $500-million per year (at most) ... but no where near $1.2-billion per year.

On top of this, there is the money the illegal immigrants send home ... and that costs Americans their jobs jobs. Of the $48-billion sent to Mexico during 2006 (as reported by a Mexican bank) by Mexican nationals in the United States, that act alone cost over 200,000 jobs earning about $75,000 / year (plus 40% benefits + payroll taxes)...

On top of this, there is decreased property values and increased crime ... in areas illegal immigrants settle. This is almost impossible to set a dollar value but I'll estimate it at 10% of our nation's GDP ($11-trillion)...

The price America is paying for illegal immigrants to stay here is already far too high... so the $200 per illegal immigrant to send them home is a tiny price to pay compared to the hundreds of billions of dollars each month Americans pay for them to stay.

Deportation and enforcement. And I for one want to see America defend its national sovereignity.

Dolphin-One
Oregon

If the countries the have gotten foreign aid from us would repay it then maybe the USA would have to money to do what needs to be done here. We help every nation in their time of need, but do you see any other nation helping us when we need it?

No Bob - my great-grandparents did sneak across the damn border to get in this country. They came and went through the necessary process to become legal citizens. If being "stupid" is me being tired of paying taxes to support social programs for illegals; tired of seeing my grocery ads in spanish; tired of hearing about law-breakers "rights" and tired of politicians who don't have the courage to stand up for what is right (deportation), than I am stupid - and damn proud of it.

1. End the "work Americans won't do" silliness
2. Punish every empoloyer who hires illegals
3.WE all agree to PAY more to guarantee only actual citizens made or worked on what we buy
4. The BIG ONE...
why do they want to come here?
Mr.Bush and all of you, do you know what it's like to be a poor campesino in Mexico?

Let's invade, depose the dictators (cheap, we can walk in) and set up a true democracy that takes care of its poor and sets a living wage so they stay there if they want. Restore Article 27 of the Mexican constitution...
THIS will stop all the "problems"

Oh wait.. the curent NAFTA-worsened situation in Mexico's poorest states.. wait that helps American businesses! We SUPPORT Mexican government!

So...sanctions anyone?

To all of you Lefties here are solutions for solving our illegal immigrations in our country.
They are nothing but a major pain in the ***. They flood our hospitals, schools, freeways, and destroy our culture slowly by refusing to integrate with mainstream americans. I'm asian and i dont see such problems among the asian population here in the US. If you remember 1975 (the fall of Saigon) we're flooded with vietnamese into this country but u know what? They all integrated willingly into american lifestyle. The mexicans and Latinos not only refuses to integrate but they have this idea of AzLand. They came here to invade us and thinking this land belonged to them still but not realizing we bought the land long long ago sold by their own goverments for a very hefty price at the time. How do you like the idea of selling goods and taking it back claiming it's yours? I passed by downtown LA sometimes and I thought I was in a third world country. People need to wake up because the culture and values of the american dream is being destroyed slowly by invading illegals and corporate america which is the driving machine behind all of this. The middle class is dying and america's power is made on the back of the american middle class. I certainly dont care if our image around the world is bad but when your'e this powerful people will be jealous of you and you'll look bad no matter what. Spare all the political correctness to the world adn just do what is best in our interest to keep america powerful. I certainly dont want our country to be a wimpy country and get another 9/11 because of all the politcal correctness bull. I'd rather piss people off and live in a safe and powerful nation than appease them and gets blown up by terrorists or live in poverty because of invading 3rd world nationalists.

1. (Cut the number of Illegals entering the country) Definitely fine all employers who are caught hiring illegals the first time with hefty penalty. 2nd time with jail time. 3rd time provoke their license for operating businesses and jail time. I dont know how easy that'll be since corporate america and corrupt government officials (lefties mostly who likes open border.) are selling out our country.
2. (Deportation Solved). If you think of all the money spent on the illegals each year such as hospital, school, etc.. and many more (such money can be used to deport illegals instead). In the long run we'll spend less money them because they're gonna have to try and find their way back in but they probably wont because all of their job sources are dried by now.

One other thing, back in the 40s-70s, Americans did all the jobs that people now are claiming illegals are fillings. Just pay them decent living wages and people are willing to fill the jobs. Its the greed of employers that caused the illegals to fill the jobs americans wouldn't do. Americans of course wouldn't do jobs paid at $3-4/hour when it is $7/hour. Would you?

No nation in the history of the world that lost control of its own borders stayed in business as a nation for more than 50 years after that.

Posted by: Robert | Apr 9, 2007 3:25:57 PM

Where did you get that ridiculous stat from????

No nation in the history of the world that is not an island has ever managed to "control" it's own border entirely. I think there is maybe one border as large as the US/Mexico border in the history of the world that has been controlled to this extent (great wall of china?), and that's debatable. Do you think the Brazil, Russia, Canada, India, Argentina, or any one of a hundred different countries have more checkpoints and sentries on their borders than we do on the Mexico/US border? If you do, you're delusional.

The other thing that needs to change is that the law needs to make citizenship unavailable to those who enter illegally after a certain date or intentionally overstay a visa after that same date. This reduces incentive to get into the US illegally since there is no chance for amnesty (which is what we all know will be passed by Congress and signed by the President).

Per DolphinOne:

Linda asks "how we would logistically deport 12 million people?" Mexico deports 5-million illegal immigrants during 2005... so it can be done.

One-by-one ... shackle them, strip-them of their assets, and march them to the Rio Grande for 1st time offenders... repeats offenders will spend life on a foreign military installation doing latrine duty or pots & pans duty for the rest of their lives, never to see loved ones again.

---

Why stop there, D1? Isn't it about time for a "final solution?" Get Halliburton on the line: we need boxcars and lots of them, post haste.

=============

Also, D1: what's this stuff about $200/e to deport illegals. Seems mighty low.

=====

This is one of very few issues where I find myself both agreeing with and even modestly impressed with Dear Leader. His position reflects nuance, subtlety, empathy and common sense. I think this is a function of the fact that, unlike war, Bush actually has enough first-hand experience with immigration issues to deal with them in a rational way.

Canada, the US, and Mexico will be de facto one country by the end of this century. More so than Europe is now under the EU. How we plan for this will dictate the quality of life that we will have for the next two hundred years. Education needs to be placed at the top of the agenda for North America and leave this xenophobia aside. Those with jobs that require few skills will feel the impact of comparative advantage and should consider upgrading their knowledge base. Cultural changes are inevitable with time. Technology, much of it created by migrants and their descendents, has changed our culture tremendously since the days of the colonists. I personally love having having my rum and a cigar and listening to Sinatra and Glenn Miller or hitting a tequila shot and hearing the songs of Pedro Infante. I love getting my karate training from my Japanese instructor or working on technology projects with my Indian co-workers. Those that appreciate the beauty and advantages of different cultures will thrive in this new world. Those that want to hold on to their job entitlements will fade further and further into irrelavancy.

No Dolphin-One I didn't ask how we would logistically deport them - I said to get 'em out and I don't care how.

But I like everything else you wrote.

Bubba, Our country doesn't have to deport 12+ million illegals. Most will go home voluntarily if we enforce the laws concerning illegal migration. This would include the laws that pertain to the hiring of illegal aliens by employers. It would also include the termination of all government benefits they receive from our government. We also need to realize that the vast majority of United States citizens are in favor of enforcing our immigration laws for they know that if we let the illegals get away with breaking the law it will lead to more people trying to enter our country illegally. They also know that our country is basically at the breaking point fiscally from the huge cost of supporting all of the illegal aliens in our country. We need to stop helping out these illegal and unwelcomed migrants immediately. Our own citizens of our country have been carrying the load for these illegal freeloaders for to long. Finally, we all need to remember that it is not at all fair to all those people from other countries that have waited their turn to enter our country legally or to those people who are still waiting to enter our country legally. A very informative web site concerning our country's immigration situation is www.fairus.org. Please check this site out and give them your support.

Hey, didn't you know it's the responsibility of the U.S. to take in whomever wants to stay here, regardless of how they got here, legally or illegally? We should just take down all our borders and wave people in by the hoards! And once our economy collapses due to the simple fact that it can't support the influx of immigrants we have now, let alone in the future, at least we can take comfort knowing other countries will think the U.S. sure was nice to lend a hand to those in need.

It's unbelievable that people balk over our need and responsibility to provide for and protect our OWN citizens before reaching out to help others. It is an economic FACT that illegal immigration hurts our economy FAR more than it helps.

As far as the cry of 'illegals do the jobs no one else wants to do.' Ok, here's a simple fix to that. You know all of those thousands of folks we have in jail that we as citizens pay to feed, educate and house? How about they start earning their keep and work in the fields? Considering they are in JAIL and not Club Med, it isn't too much to ask that they pay society for their crimes and for their free food and housing by working. If knowing you will be sentenced to 25 years of weeding tomato fields in oppressive heat becomes a crime deterent, all the better.

And btw, Bush could give a horse puck for illegal immigrants. None of the political parties care about them on a personal level. They only care about pandering for votes.

Hey, didn't you know it's the responsibility of the U.S. to take in whomever wants to stay here, regardless of how they got here, legally or illegally? We should just take down all our borders and wave people in by the hoards! And once our economy collapses due to the simple fact that it can't support the influx of immigrants we have now, let alone in the future, at least we can take comfort knowing other countries will think the U.S. sure was nice to lend a hand to those in need.

It's unbelievable that people balk over our need and responsibility to provide for and protect our OWN citizens before reaching out to help others. It is an economic FACT that illegal immigration hurts our economy FAR more than it helps.

As far as the cry of 'illegals do the jobs no one else wants to do.' Ok, here's a simple fix to that. You know all of those thousands of folks we have in jail that we as citizens pay to feed, educate and house? How about they start earning their keep and work in the fields? Considering they are in JAIL and not Club Med, it isn't too much to ask that they pay society for their crimes and for their free food and housing by working. If knowing you will be sentenced to 25 years of weeding tomato fields in oppressive heat becomes a crime deterent, all the better.

And btw, Bush could give a horse puck for illegal immigrants. None of the political parties care about them on a personal level. They only care about pandering for votes.

You know why you'll never see wholesale deportation of illegal immigrants from the US?

Major & small companies, the ones that one way or the other give jobs to illegals, will never support it.

Here's a newsflash; Major & small companies are not usually run by liberals.

You want to know how they get around the "minimum wage is unfair" policy, the one's that cry there's too much regulation? Who do you think hires the workers that won't complain they're being paid less then the minimum wage? How many companies claim ignorance when dozens of their employees are deported? How many companies actively support & hide illegal immigrants?

Conservatives want their cake & eat it too.
Then they go blame liberals for the illegal immigration problem.

Bubba, Our country doesn't have to deport 12+ million illegals. Most will go home voluntarily if we enforce the laws concerning illegal migration. This would include the laws that pertain to the hiring of illegal aliens by employers. It would also include the termination of all government benefits they receive from our government. We also need to realize that the vast majority of United States citizens are in favor of enforcing our immigration laws for they know that if we let the illegals get away with breaking the law it will lead to more people trying to enter our country illegally. They also know that our country is basically at the breaking point fiscally from the huge cost of supporting all of the illegal aliens in our country. We need to stop helping out these illegal and unwelcomed migrants immediately. Our own citizens of our country have been carrying the load for these illegal freeloaders for to long. Finally, we all need to remember that it is not at all fair to all those people from other countries that have waited their turn to enter our country legally or to those people who are still waiting to enter our country legally. A very informative web site concerning our country's immigration situation is www.fairus.org. Please check this site out and give them your support.

Bubba, Our country doesn't have to deport 12+ million illegals. Most will go home voluntarily if we enforce the laws concerning illegal migration. This would include the laws that pertain to the hiring of illegal aliens by employers. It would also include the termination of all government benefits they receive from our government. We also need to realize that the vast majority of United States citizens are in favor of enforcing our immigration laws for they know that if we let the illegals get away with breaking the law it will lead to more people trying to enter our country illegally. They also know that our country is basically at the breaking point fiscally from the huge cost of supporting all of the illegal aliens in our country. We need to stop helping out these illegal and unwelcomed migrants immediately. Our own citizens of our country have been carrying the load for these illegal freeloaders for far to long. Finally, we all need to remember that it is not at all fair to all those people from other countries that have waited their turn to enter our country legally and also to those people who are still waiting to enter our country legally. A very informative web site concerning our country's immigration situation is www.fairus.org. Please check this site out and give them your support.

Bubba, Our country doesn't have to deport 12+ million illegals. Most will go home voluntarily if we enforce the laws concerning illegal migration. This would include the laws that pertain to the hiring of illegal aliens by employers. It would also include the termination of all government benefits they receive from our government. We also need to realize that the vast majority of United States citizens are in favor of enforcing our immigration laws for they know that if we let the illegals get away with breaking the law it will lead to more people trying to enter our country illegally. They also know that our country is basically at the breaking point fiscally from the huge cost of supporting all of the illegal aliens in our country. We need to stop helping out these illegal and unwelcomed migrants immediately. Our own citizens of our country have been carrying the load for these illegal freeloaders for far to long. Finally, we all need to remember that it is not at all fair to all those people from other countries that have waited their turn to enter our country legally or to those people who are still waiting to enter our country legally. A very informative web site concerning our country's immigration situation is www.fairus.org. Please check this site out and give them your support.

Bubba, Our country doesn't have to deport 12+ million illegals. Most will go home voluntarily if we enforce the laws concerning illegal migration. This would include the laws that pertain to the hiring of illegal aliens by employers. It would also include the termination of all government benefits they receive from our government. We also need to realize that the vast majority of United States citizens are in favor of enforcing our immigration laws for they know that if we let the illegals get away with breaking the law it will lead to more people trying to enter our country illegally. They also know that our country is basically at the breaking point fiscally from the huge cost of supporting all of the illegal aliens in our country. We need to stop helping out these illegal and unwelcomed migrants immediately. Our own citizens of our country have been carrying the load for these illegal freeloaders for to long. Finally, we all need to remember that it is not at all fair to all those people from other countries that have waited their turn to enter our country legally or to those people who are still waiting to enter our country legally. A very informative web site concerning our country's immigration situation is www.fairus.org. Please check this site out and give them your support.

One point that is never mentioned in this discussion is that a great many of these people would come here legally if given the chance. the point being they don't have that chance. If they did have a way to that and it was tracked meticulously by the Federal government then and only then would we have a real chance at keeping those that we don't want here (criminals, terrorists, etc.) out. Until we do this no amount of border control will solve this problem.

ITS TOO BAD, YOU SAY IN YOUR COUNTRY AND I WIL STAY IN MY COUNTRY

We don't need policy that will round up illegal immigrants - that's just not practical because of the sheer number of people who have crept into the USA in the past 20 years. 20 million and counting, according to some estimates.

The easiest way to correct a problem is to pass subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) laws and regulations that make it impossible for illegal immigrants to comfortably live in the USA. Eliminate jobs and benefits from living in the USA, and it becomes not-so-enjoyable to be here if you're not a citizen. My plan is as follows:

1. First thing is to change citizenship laws so that being born on American soil is no longer an automatic grant of citizenship. "Anchor babies" are being exploited. Plenty of other countries in the world have rules that only allow citizenship if you are born to parents who are citizens. Children born to Mexican parents while in the USA are Mexican citizens due to their parents citizenship. Make the law so that USA citizenship is only conferred to children who have at least one parent who is a citizen.

2. Form a workable method for employers to check social security numbers of employees. That is half the problem with companies - they throw their hand up and say that they hire people and it's not their fault if they can't determine who is a legal worker. Fix this, and businesses have no excuses for hiring illegal workers.

3. Couple point number 2 with fines of $100,000 per head of any illegal workers found to be employed by any business. Then, actually have INS agents enforce this law. The fines from illegal workers should pay for the enforcement itself. If you don't hit businesses in their pocketbooks, they never change. Loosing money from fines is the only thing they understand.

4. Mandate that public service sectors verify citizenship before giving out benefits of any kind. This would eliminate medical care, welfare, and public school benefits being given to children who are never checked to see if they are here legally. Correcting the problem should be a grass-roots effort, so there is no reason that schools shouldn't be tasked with seeing that all of their students are legal citizens.

5. Prohibit housing from being rented or purchased by anyone who is not a citizen or legal resident of the USA. If you can't rent a place to live, it becomes harder to make a decent life in the USA. There will always be a black market, so fines of $100,000 per head should encourage landlords to comply with this requirement. Back it up with INS enforcement.

6. Keep illegal immigrant drivers off the roads by denying them drivers licenses. Pass a law that states any vehicle caught while being driven by an illegal immigrant shall be seized and crushed - no appeals. Such a measure will go a long way to cutting down on accidents caused by illegal immigrants who then do not have insurance. When thinking of loosing their property, no individual or business will want to loan out a vehicle to any illegal immigrant driver due to fear of having it seized and crushed. Construction contractors will only loose one $40,000 pickup truck before they learn not to do that twice.

7. Lastly, have local law enforcement tasked with verifying and reporting non-citizens as they encounter them during daily work. The illegals need not be deported, the status and ID of them simply needs to be reported. The government then should keep a list of all illegal immigrants that are encountered in the USA - and that list should then be used to mark people as never being eligible for citizenship in the future. If the USA can keep a "no-fly" list, they can keep a "no-citizen" list. The message should be sent that immigration must be legal - and illegal immigration will be grounds for being barred in the future from ever becoming a legal citizen.

BONUS: If the USA ever gets around to having a national ID of some sort, I would even go so far as to desire a nation-wide sales tax of 50% on everything bought by someone who cannot show USA citizenship. This has logistical and privacy implications, but if there is ever an easy way for someone to show citizenship this huge tax would go a long way towards recapturing tax revenue that is not paid by illegal labor that skirts other tax law.

All these ideas will go a long way to making it very uncomfortable for anyone to illegally live in the USA. Thus, there need not be any large-scale deportations or other logistical problems. Hopefully illegal immigrants would then get the message that they need to come here legally - or stay home because illegal life will not be as easy as it is now.

He seems to have become delirious, or perhaps to have slipped his handlers for an hour.

The hate is starting to subside in me, and pity is starting to take over in my mind; for him and us.

Eight years of this pitiful sociopath.

He must have snuck a double G&T and reconnected with his inner feelings.

The saddest part;
He has destroyed us and we don't even know it yet. We have 20 years of hard work ahead of us to fix what this dysfunctional man/child has 'accomplished', and I don't think we (the progressives) can hold it together long enough to accomplish the 'fix'.

Never forget the 'two week memory' syndrome of the American people.

"Let's invade, depose the dictators (cheap, we can walk in) and set up a true democracy that takes care of its poor and sets a living wage so they stay there if they want. Restore Article 27 of the Mexican constitution...
THIS will stop all the "problems""

Gee, where have I heard that before? They'll be tossing flowers at our troops, right?

" I don't care how it's done - let villages/cities/municipalities with "overcrowding" problems (read 14 illegals living in a two bedroom house) start kicking doors and rounding them up. I'm sick and tired of paying their way.

Posted by: Linda | Apr 9, 2007 3:00:12 PM"

Paying their way?
They are growing and picking your produce, doing America's gardening, building houses, cleaning up the &h&✟ in your c☞♦☧☧☹r, and generally doing the work that would kill most Americans.

I say bring them in to the legit economy and let them pay into Social Security, and other tax sources. I know lots of Mexicans, and believe me, I like them a lot more than I like you. They have human impulses.

" I think this is a function of the fact that, unlike war, Bush actually has enough first-hand experience with immigration issues to deal with them in a rational way.

Posted by: a blinkin | Apr 9, 2007 3:59:38 PM"

I tend to agree with this.

I think the double G&T he 'enjoyed' may have overridden the meds that 'President' Bush is currently processing.

Anyone who thinks we need the illegals here because they do the jobs Americans won't do has never seen "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe on Discovery Channel!

The argument loses it's bite when: Anyone who thinks there are jobs Americans won't do has never seen "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe on Discovery Channel!

Usted las galletas esta absolutamente loco.

Acuse el Presidente Chimpy!

Ahora!

Aaron,
I have supported the idea of issuing a national I.D card as well- particularly one that contains biometric data unique to the cardholder. While identity theft is not entirely impossible using biometric i.d cards, it is a giant improvement over the antiquated methods currently used to identify citizens and work-eligible indivuduals.
It sounds Orwellian, but so does having to commence pogroms every twenty years or so to rid the country of illegal workers that managed to beat an inneffective and easily circumvenred i.d system.
I agree with other posters that Bush has been pragmatic in his approach to dealing with the millions already in the country. We can't deport millions of people that have lived here for years.
Such a move would be relentlessly condemned and ridiculed throughout the world. This is not what the U.S needs on it's platter at this time.

"Mandate that public service sectors verify citizenship before giving out benefits of any kind. This would eliminate medical care, welfare, and public school benefits being given to children who are never checked to see if they are here legally. "

So you would turn sick and injured children away from an emergency room when they required urgent care?

I am stupid - and damn proud of it.
Posted by: Linda | Apr 9, 2007 3:43:50 PM

Sorry Linda, couldn't let that one go by. Seriously, why is it you always so hostile about illegals? Why is it you are willing to jump all over the people breaking the law to get here but not willing to blame the people who break the law employing them? When you want to talk about what your tax dollars are paying for please provide some links. Facts & figures usually mean more to people than empty rhetoric & slogans. Because otherwise you come off as some kind of bigot with an ax to grid. Not trying to say you are one as I don't know you but thats how you end up sounding.

Linda Im with you and the Deport Every Illegal Alien in the USA Folks! And so I ask You Mr Liar
in Chief George W Bush,Amnesty John McCain,Teddy
Kennedy,Jeff Flake,Madame Speaker Damacus Nancy
Pelosi and all you Democrat and Republican Illegal Alien,and George W Bush,and Cheap Labor
Business Clowns,What Part Of NO Illegal Alien
Amnesty and NO Illegal Alien Guest Worker Plan
Bush BS Don't You Get Still Here Now?...Iam also
fed up with this phony U S Chamber Of Commerce
Line,"These are jobs American Workers Will Not
Do" Nonsense too,as who the Hell do you think did
those jobs before all These Illegal Alien Lawbreakers Illegally Entered The US and Stole
Them From US workers? And your greedy big business CEO cut wages until no American worker
can live on thwm! vote Out Every Incumbent Democrat and Republican in Congress in 2008!
Impeach George W Bush, Delusional Dick Cheney
and Madame Speaker Damascus Nancy Pelosi! Contact
Your Senators and Member Of Congress Today and
Tell Them We Said No and Not Just No But Hell No
To George W Bush's Leave No Illegal Alien Behind
an Phony Guest Worker Plan Insanity!

Why aren't any of the illegal alien (not illegal immigrant) defenders mentioning the fact that Mexico's second largest source of revenue after oil is the 25 billion dollars illegal aliens send back to Mexico?

That fact alone explains why the Mexican government is aiding their law breaking citizens with comic books telling them how to sneak into the country.

The 25 billions dollars leaving our country every year (and that is just the money that leaves through legal channels) greatly exceeds any amount of net revenue these illegal aliens produce yet everyone tries to sell this issue as a net positive for America. Well it isn't a net positive and it is incredibly unfair to the people who wait and enter this country legally. My Mother was forced to wait years and year for the opportunity to come here and when she did she never had the audacity to come here and fly the flag of her former country.

Speaking of the flag flying I thought it was very powerful the illegal aliens showed their true colors when protesting last year by flying the Mexican flag (until someone with a brain told them it was counterproductive). At least they were temporarily honest enough to show where their loyalty lies.

Lastly, if we are going to offer "earned citizenship" then let them serve in any branch of the US military for 4 years. If any illegal alien serves our military and separates from the military with an honorable discharge then and only then have they earned citizenship in my opinion.

"Bush is no Republcian and he is selling out this country."

Mark,

What is he then, a Democrat? Is Bush a liberal?? A communist?

Next thing you will be telling us is that we loony lefties support Bush.

This is becoming hilarious.

The white mice are walking backwards.

He's a Republic, and thanks to him your party is out for a generation.

Do you know what happens to illegals that come into Mexico ? The Mexico government puts them in Prison for a minimum of TEN YEARS....not our luxury prisons...these are hell ! Many are raped, murdered and treatedly horibly....yet they think we should treat them to free everything....that they don't need to follow the laws....and stand there with their Mexican Flags...saying tough...we are staying!

In your dreams...

Keep hearing the stuff about having to feed their families, that's why they come across the border illegally....well, I guess it was too much work to fill out the paperwork...like the rest of the people from around the world who did so LEGALLY.

You know guys, gals.....read your history.

Both Herbert Hoover and Dwight D. Esienhower, rounded up illegal mexicans and deported them...Millions of them.

One operation was called "operation wetback"

Spare me the B.S. of saying it can't be done, or American Values...here are two Presidents that did it.

Interestingly, we are back with the problem again, and again, and again.

$200 Dlls. to deport each Illegal in the country,Dolphin1 Linda and others? I don't know where you got that ridiculous number---certainly not from the INS! These fellows will tell you that it would cost tons and tons more! In the first place, it would take some 100,000 people dedicated almost exclusively to this endeavor to handle the job---agents and their supervisors (local, area, district, national, etc) and the supervisors' bosses and their bosses, all receving salaries, bonuses, pensions and many with juicy expense accounts and some needing guns, bullet proof vests, etc. (they aren't free, you know). Add to these salaries etc for secretaries, chauffeurs, gofers, accountants, researchers, lawyers and so on and so forth. You also have the expense of puting many of these people in offices, hiring leasing agents, remodeling ( carpeting,sheet rock, etc.) paying rent, etc. etc. How about all the office equipment and supplies needed (desks, tables, lamps, telephones, audio-visual equipment, fax machines, copiers, paper, envelopes, pencils, clips, tape,labels glue, etc., etc,. etc. In addition, they are going to need to buy cars, vans, jeeps... and they will have to pay for insurance, maintenance, repairs, to say nothing about replacement costs for the vehicles that are bound to be trashed, totaled, etc. And how about one of the real biggies? Court and lawyer costs because of the THOUSANDS of law suits that undoubtedly will ensue, including those by citizens that will be unduly harassed or even "deported". So, $200 for every illegal deported? Try about a zillion times that much.

In any case, it is all a moot question since we will NEVER even attempt to deport very large numbers of illegal immigrants. Even the INS says that it would be impractical and, almost assuredly, an impossible task.

So, Dolphin1, Linda and others, I think you have a couple of options as to what to do with your life:

1) Be certain that you, your kids and grandkids learn how to speak, read and write Spanish so that all of you will be more comfortable and will have a better chance to succeed in what inevitably will become the main stream or;

2) Move to another country where you won't feel so threatened and be happier.

By the way, it is estimated by those who keep records of these things, that at least a million and a half of the illegals are from Western Europe (Ireland, Germany, Holland, Italy, etc.) I am sure I don't have to explain why this complicates this entire issue.

Ben

please we want an immigration reform

And, surely today, ALL Americans were anticipating
both Bush and Cheney speechifying in the White
House Rose Garden--celebrating and congratulating
themselves on the 4th Anniversary of Operation
Iraqi Freedom: 'A Cakewalk' to New Democracy in
the Middle East!?!

Unlike most of you, I don't claim to have an answer to the immigration issue. What I do have is first hand knowledge of how difficult is it to go through. I am an American citizen. I am married to a Romanian citizen who was already in the States when we met. We had 3 children who were born in the States. We came to Romania (father-in-law died) before my husband got his green card. We have been going through LEGAL channels to get my husband a visa and they still deny him. I for one, am sick and tired of hearing about how the American government cares so much about its people. My children and myself are stuck in a "third world" country because the American government refuses to allow their father and my husband in. Not only that but they don't give any reason. So tell me how they care about my or my children. Of course I don't expect anyone to actually look from my point of view, I'm just giving everyone another view point.

Here's a quote from an article in The Christian Science Moniter about exactly what Eisenhower did:

"In 1954, Ike appointed retired Gen. Joseph "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, a former West Point classmate and veteran of the 101st Airborne, as the new INS commissioner.

Influential politicians, including Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson (D) of Texas and Sen. Pat McCarran (D) of Nevada, favored open borders, and were dead set against strong border enforcement, Brownell said. But General Swing's close connections to the president shielded him - and the Border Patrol - from meddling by powerful political and corporate interests.

One of Swing's first decisive acts was to transfer certain entrenched immigration officials out of the border area to other regions of the country where their political connections with people such as Senator Johnson would have no effect.

Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing arrest, had fled the country.

By mid-July, the crackdown extended northward into Utah, Nevada, and Idaho, and eastward to Texas.

By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegals had left the Lone Star State voluntarily.

Unlike today, Mexicans caught in the roundup were not simply released at the border, where they could easily reenter the US. To discourage their return, Swing arranged for buses and trains to take many aliens deep within Mexico before being set free.

Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Vera Cruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles south.

The sea voyage was "a rough trip, and they did not like it," says Don Coppock, who worked his way up from Border Patrolman in 1941 to eventually head the Border Patrol from 1960 to 1973.

Mr. Coppock says he "cannot understand why [President] Bush let [today's] problem get away from him as it has. I guess it was his compassionate conservatism, and trying to please [Mexican President] Vincente Fox."

There are now said to be 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the US. Of the Mexicans who live here, an estimated 85 percent are here illegally."

And why is the Mexican government not ever given any of the blame for this migration out of their country? Mexico is our third largest trading partner, they are the third largest exporter of oil to the US, and, according to the CIA World Factbook, "Mexico has a free market economy that recently entered the trillion dollar class." Besides oil, they have additional resources such as silver, copper, gold, lead, zinc, natural gas and timber. If the leaders of that country weren't so corrupt some of that wealth might filter down to its citizens.

jj - glad I made you laugh, even if the sentence was taken out of context. Now, you want to know what I have against illegals? Hmmm - how about watching a nice neighborhood go down the dumper with gang signs spray painted on garages (hispanic gangs); how about going to get a Sunday paper and seeing no less than 12 cars parked in driveways, across driveways, on the grass and any other place - all people living in a two bedroom house - sending bunches of children to school and only paying taxes for a single family home; getting my grocery ads in spanish - in America where english is/should be the official language. Talking to health care professionals I know who are swamped because illegals use the emergency room as a doctor's office because the hospital cannot turn them away - thus increasing medical expenses for all us legal, taxpaying citizens who actually have insurance. Have you ever been in a car accident with one of the illegals? No license, no insurance - who pays? Your insurance - and your rates get raised because of it. Do I want them out of here - you betcha and if that makes me a bigot, oh well.

"The 25 billions dollars leaving our country every year (and that is just the money that leaves through legal channels) greatly exceeds any amount of net revenue these illegal aliens produce yet everyone tries to sell this issue as a net positive for America."

I would like to see some data on this, but my guess is that you are way off. $25 billion is a drop in the bucket for the U.S. economy, and my bet is that the difference in wages paid to illegals vs. what would be mandated to pay a legal employee exceeds $25 billion in a heartbeat. The theory is, of course, that those savings are passed along to the consumer, reducing the price of goods produced here. Its safe to say that those numbers each far exceed $25 billion.

For the record, I am extremely opposed to illegal immigration and am no apologist. But as others have pointed out, this, like Iraq, is a situation that lacks a perfect or even pleasant option. All plans have drawbacks, and most are not plausible. Still, this is an issue that must be dealt with rationally, a tough caveat in the current body politik.

"The 25 billions dollars leaving our country every year (and that is just the money that leaves through legal channels) greatly exceeds any amount of net revenue these illegal aliens produce yet everyone tries to sell this issue as a net positive for America."

I would like to see some data on this, but my guess is that you are way off. $25 billion is a drop in the bucket for the U.S. economy, and my bet is that the difference in wages paid to illegals vs. what would be mandated to pay a legal employee exceeds $25 billion in a heartbeat. The theory is, of course, that those savings are passed along to the consumer, reducing the price of goods produced here. Its safe to say that those numbers each far exceed $25 billion.

For the record, I am extremely opposed to illegal immigration and am no apologist. But as others have pointed out, this, like Iraq, is a situation that lacks a perfect or even pleasant option. All plans have drawbacks, and most are not plausible. Still, this is an issue that must be dealt with rationally, a tough caveat in the current body politik.

Okay here is an idea why don't we make every
Employer of Illegal Aliens pay the cost for each
of their Illegal Alien Lawbreaker Employees return transportation back to Mexico or South
American and that's on top of the $100,000.00Fine
per each Illegal Alien Employed and 10 to 20 years in the Federal Pen for each Illegal Alien
an Employer hires,plus we throw every Illegal
Alien Lawbreaker into a Tent City Jail and put
them to work cleaning up the mess they made out
in our Arizona desert sneaking in here and to
help pay back US taxpayers the cost of Free Welfare,Free Healthcare,Free Education these Illegal Aliens and their Anchor Babies cost us!
So just say NO to Illegal Alien Amnesty and
Illegal Alien Guest Worker Leave No Illegal Alien
Behind Programs of George Wetback Bush,Amnesty
John McCain,Drunkard Teddy Kennedy and Rep Flakey
Jeff Flake! The Job You Save May Be Your Own!