Winning hearts in Iraq, losing them here?

We need to demand an immediate pull back to safe, force protection positions. This is insanity.

The Iraqis need to win their own hearts and minds. We can't do it for them.

Once they decide who keeps their heart and who keeps their mind, then we deal with the winner.

The employment of this 'tactic' is exactly why we should not be there.

Neocons like "Bruce" who keep troting out these letters from troops who support W.'s civil war in Iraq don't surprise me much.

Our troops are well trained and I'd be surprised if I ever heard one of them say they wanted to quit on something that they were ordered to do.

The reason we don't hear many active duty Generals speaking out against W.'s civil war is because they take orders from him, the General's who have disagreed with W. are gone.

Thanks to the W. administration and their propaganda news organization (FoxNews) we are as close to living in a Communist USA as we've ever been.

Stay the course Neocons !

Polls have indicated that a majority of Iraqis want American troops OUT of their country, not more enmeshed with them. And many Iraqis approve of attacks on occupying troops.

What exactly is the counter-insurgency theory here?

We lost the hearts and minds of those Iraqis who supported the invasion when W sent his incompetent neocon bureaucrats to Iraq.

"What exactly is the counter-insurgency theory here?"

athena,

What do you think of the 'wall' being constructed around certain Sunni areas?

All factions in Iraq have come out against it, yet the US military planners say, 'we are willing to discuss the issue'.

(!) What (!,(?))

TeamBush now seems to be actively searching for ways to fail in Iraq, not merely committing stupid errors one after the other.

BTW, can anyone update us on the ditch/fence that we were building around all of Baghdad?

[INSERT 'BRUCE' ATTACK ON LIBERALS HERE]

Soldiers follow orders no matter what they are. It is sad that people still support this pointless war when OUR soldiers are dying, but don't take my word for it, listen to retired generals like Paul Eaton or John Batiste among others

Soldiers follow orders no matter what they are. It is sad that people still support this pointless war when OUR soldiers are dying, but don't take my word for it, listen to retired generals like Paul Eaton or John Batiste among others

Yes, most reasonable people agree that this American occupation is "insane". But, I also believe it borders on pure evil. Now, we The People need to be proactive. Blogging about it is not enough. It's our civic and moral duty to take some action, such as writing our Congress/Senators to express our collective outrage. We need to follow our Vietnam- era parents lead, and do everything we can to force Our gov't to bring Our soldiers home post haste!

The Right's Chicken Little argument that Iraq will fall apart if we scaleback is an offensive red herring...Don't fall for it. We musn't get hooked by that psychological guilt-trap. It may sound cold pulling out and leaving Iraq in shambles. And, perhaps there'll be undesireable geo-political fallout. But, there are too many lives being forsaken; families being destroyed; billions of dollars--that we don't have--being squandered and our leadership position is rapidly descending. All this pain and suffering is a result of a vicious lie.

First and formost, they (Iraqis) need to fix this in-house squabble (Civil War). Let's commit to action--now!

Here are some of S.O.D Gates questions regarding this strategy, as reported by the D.O.D.

02 February 2007
Defense Chief Lists Iraq Benchmarks, Says U.S. Not Targeting Iran
In addition, Gates outlined benchmarks the Iraqi government should meet for continued U.S. military support...
The Iraq government has agreed to deploy Iraqi brigades into Baghdad neighborhoods, and each of these brigades will be supported by a U.S. battalion. Gates said that performance benchmarks for the Iraqi units include: “Are the brigades showing up? Are they showing up reasonably on time? Are they showing up in the numbers that they need to be showing up? Are the politicians staying out of the decisions on which neighborhoods to go into? … Are the security forces allowed to go into all the neighborhoods where there are lawbreakers?”

Here are some answers to the questions regarding the I.S.F benchmarks, as reported by UPI.

Analysis: No solid stats on Iraq security
RSS Feed - International Intelligence - Analysis
Published: April 11, 2007 at 11:28 AM
E-mail Story | Print Preview | License
By KRISTIN BILLERA
UPI Correspondent
WASHINGTON April 11 (UPI) -- The size, strength and capability of Iraqi security forces remain an enigma, with neither the Pentagon nor the Iraqi government able to offer any solid information.

That much was clear from a panel of experts who testified before the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations about the current state of Iraq's security forces.

Olga Oliker, a researcher for the RAND Corp., a non-profit research organization, said there were no clear-cut numbers available about the size of Iraq's security forces. The Defense Department's numbers only take into consideration the Iraqis who have been coalition-trained.
According to a Pentagon report in March, about 192,300 personnel have been trained for the Ministry of the Interior, including the police, the national police, border enforcement, dignitary protection and forensics. About 136,400 personnel have been trained for the Ministry of Defense for the army, support forces, special operations, and a small air force and navy.
"These are the numbers of people who have gone through training in an organized school with oversight by the MOI, MOD and Coalition," said a military source familiar with the training of the Iraqi security forces as well as their personnel system. "This is not the number of Security Forces on the street -- this number is lower because of KIA, WIA and retire, AWOL, 'I quit,' et cetera."
Also not included in these figures are forces that have not been trained by the coalition, other uniformed, armed personnel of the government such as Facilities Protection Personnel, whose primary job is to guard infrastructure, or the agents of the Iraqi National Intelligence Service and the Ministry of State for National Security Affairs.
Another problem is that many of the Iraqi security forces personnel simply are not showing up to work, while continuing to draw pay. According to Oliker's testimony, the Ministry of Finance disburses a lump sum to local officials to distribute. While the manual payroll rosters may give some indication of who is getting paid, it does not show who is actually working, especially since payments are made in cash.

Will Gates follow through in holding the Iraqi government to these benchmarks?
We have heard a similiar line about benchmarks for the Iraqi government from the President, but nothing ever came of it.

How can a preident who said the Atty General did a good job in front of the Senate Comm, when could not remmeber 83 times what happened in his
office. Led us in this terrable war

How can a preident who said the Atty General did a good job in front of the Senate Comm, when could not remmeber 83 times what happened in his
office. Led us in this terrable war

The only way to calm down a country that should have never existed is via military dictatorship.

Since we all know that's not going to happen on our watch, there's nothing left to do but split up the country or move on.

Didn't the Republicans learn anything from Yugoslavia falling apart?

It's so hard to believe they used to be the "foreign affairs" party.

There may have been some validity to Gen. Pretraeus's strategy in the early goings of the war. Before our ineptness allowed the Iraqi infrastructure to crumble, and chaos reign, Sunni's and Shias weren't entirely entrenched against each other and actually had some incentive to help thwart an outside insurgency.

After Rummy and his flawed plan allowed all that "stuff happen", all sides found reason to hate us. This is truly a no-win situation. I hate that we've left the country in shambles, but our continued presence there is now part of the problem.

Today's left winger of the day is "Herb", who in 2 sentences shows he can attack a president but can't spell "preident". Among other words "remmember" and "terrable" are mangled, the sentences are unreadable, then to top it all off he posts this mishmash twice.

Meanwhile, surrenderist "bb" admits he/she loves military dictatorships, surrenderist "dt" mixes bad spelling with Alice-in-Wonderland claims about pre-2003 Iraq, and surrenderist "Bruce" borrows the name of a pro-victory poster but unlike the real "Bruce" double posts.

Not a very impressive bunch. Is this is the best the pro-defeat crowd can offer?

The employment of this 'tactic' is exactly why we should not be there.

Posted by: C.Morris | Apr 24, 2007 12:28:32 PM

Amen!!! Bring them home.

Given todays events including David Halberstams death, and that of nine more brave American military people I thought this quote was poignant.

"The crueler the war gets, the crueler the attacks get on anybody who doesn't salute or play the game," he said. "And then one day, the people who are doing the attacking look around and they've used up their credibility."

David Halberstam.

I am an ex-Green Beret. I have been in many operations in many places. I am 58 and have been living outside of the US for the last 20 years. I am so sad to see what is happening to America. The country is tearing itself apart and to me the right wing polititians are the cause. They are bleeding America and stirring up hatred to fan their insane greed for profit. There are many fine Americans in the Republican party. Please help stop the madness of a certain fringe group.
Bin Laden said he would destroy the US economically. Can't you see what is happening? Certain people are raking in profits and don't want the war to end. This outlay of money is unsustainable. But some "Americans" are very happy. Who are the real treasonous individuals here?
Torture?! Since when did the ends justify the means under any circumstances? That has never been the American way. Have any of these armchair polititions ever seen someone tortured? They should be forced to look. Please, all real Americans should stand up and control and punish these insane people before it is too late. If you don't stop the neocons now, there will be a war between Americans in the future. That is a certainty that will come to pass. I hope it doesn't.

Not a very impressive bunch. Is this is the best the pro-defeat crowd can offer?

Posted by: Former Leftist | Apr 24, 2007 5:02:26 PM

I didn't see you offering much to the conversation aside from going after spelling mistakes. Do you have any substance to counter with, or are you just trying to be the resident spell-checker here in The Swamp?

Former leftist,

I never had delusions of success in Iraq and I was vehemently opposed to the debacle from the start. My comments on the insurgent strategy used by Petraeus (excuuuuuuuuuuse me for the misspell) comes from the author of Fiasco, Thomas Ricks.

Ricks claims that Gen. Petraeus had some success early in the war in the Al Anbar region of Iraq, but his efforts were undermined by army units that later took control, knocking down doors, terrorizing civilians, sending innocents off to Abu Ghraib. Ricks writes that, according to the Petraeus camp, locals stopped cooperating with U.S. troops in identifying insurgent threats, soon after we started using these obtrusive tactics. Gen. Petraeus reportedly said, that with enough manning, his early success could have translated throughout the region, possibly avoiding the "fiasco" we now have.

Former Lib, if you ever were, stay that way. Save your B.S. sloganeering for the Rove crowd. Your so-called "pro-victory" neonuts lied to get us into this war, then compounded things by botching it's prosecution. I think that's called the being pro-fubar.

for bb
since what we need is a dictator in Iraq and GWB is clearly of the "my way or the highway" mentality needed, clearly is uncomfortable with democracy, and is unable to run again (and Laura would love to see the last of him), the obvious solution is for George to declare himself Saddam's replacement.
Go George, why wait to be impeached. Get over there and whip them fellas into shape. Maybe you can stock the Tigris with some bass.

BTW
Reid missed a snappy comeback to Shooter.
Shooter was whinning that Congress was ignoring the military -- so
Reid ""You're the one who directly oppposed the
judgment of Shinseki -- with 300,000+ troops we could have won. Your poor decisions lost us the war in Iraq"

How can a preident who said the Atty General did a good job in front of the Senate Comm, when could not remmeber 83 times what happened in his
office. Led us in this terrable war

Posted by: Herb | Apr 24, 2007 1:53:04 PM

Herb: You didn't happen to go to Chicago Public Schools did you ?

Your so-called "pro-victory" neonuts lied to get us into this war
Posted by: dt | Apr 24, 2007 10:55:12 PM

dt: You must of been out of the country during the run-up to the war. Congress voted on the intelligence reports from at least 7 intelligence agencies, the U.N., are own C.I.A. ("It's a slam dunk Mr. President") even Bubba and two ton Al.,Queen Hillary,John ( I was in Cambodia ) Kerry, John (" I'll sue you" ) Edward's, well you get the picture don't you dt ? Your revisionist history ain't going to cut it, the Dems voted for it too. They are now running from their votes for political expediency, cowards that they are. Did you know we also blew up the towers too dt ?

" and surrenderist "Bruce" borrows the name of a pro-victory poster but unlike the real "Bruce" double posts.

Not a very impressive bunch. Is this is the best the pro-defeat crowd can offer?

Posted by: Former Leftist | Apr 24, 2007 5:02:26 PM"

Bruce,

Everyone knows you are the real Bruce.

You need to create newer, funnier alter-ego. Maybe a guy with a funny foreign accent or something. At least we will be entertained.

Don B,

Revisionist history? You and Jeff keep running out that b.s. republican talking part to try and shift blame for Bush's "cooked intelligence" on someone else. What a crock. We now know about Cheney's own personal "intelligence cabal" who's job it was to bury "inconvenient facts" and play up phony ones to justify the war. Then there's the Downing Street Memo, the Joe Wilson revelation, the list is long and damning.

If you and Jeff weren't on the RNC payroll I'd tell you to go read George Packard's "Assassins Gate", which is one of the best accounts of a good intentioned Neocon fantasy gone bad. For those of you who care enough or want to be deprogrammed, I've included a synopsis of Packard's book as well as a retort to Don B's b.s. Republican talking point.

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2005/10/07/packer/index.html

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511080006

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2076137.ece