After Senate all-nighter, war vote at hand

Tie a yellow ribbon around the 'ol toothbrush. It's been 4 1/2 long years, WWII didn't take this long...

"Sixty votes are required to end the Republican filibuster"

Thank you for calling this what it is. It's amazing how many outlets of the news industry have contorted themselves to avoid the truth of this simple point. They either avoid the "f" word, or even call it a Democratic filibuster.

You give me hope.

Harry Reid hopefully has learned that his left wing tactics are not worth a pinch of coon poo.

Hopefully, any RINO voting with the Democraps on this issue will do the Republican Party a favor and quit and become a Democrat. Let's divest the losers in the Party and start over with true and committed Americans in the REpublican Party!

jc

jc

Our country is being run by a bunch of children... on both sides of the aisle.

The headline for this piece should be "Republicans filibuster Iraq withdrawal vote". Kudos to Jill for stating the truth in the second paragraph.

There are other very important problems facing our country and the democrats should be discussed such as immigration, health insurance, mortgage defaults and not Iraq. The question of Iraq is an exercise in futility and the democrats will NEVER achieve the required 60 votes. So stop this political charade & theater.

Ms. Zuckman, thank you for clearly stating this is a 'Republican filibuster'.

The republicans don't want an 'up or down' vote on whether to start timelines for bringing the troops home. I wonder why they're so chicken? Presnit Shrubby will veto it anyway. The chickenhawks are now regressing to plain chickens.

I think having letters and picture from soldiers who have been to Iraq to give to the politicians would have a greater impact than toothbrushes with yellow ribbons.

I think having letters and picture from soldiers who have been to Iraq to give to the politicians would have a greater impact than toothbrushes with yellow ribbons.

I think having letters and picture from soldiers who have been to Iraq to give to the politicians would have a greater impact than toothbrushes with yellow ribbons.

Absent from the Jill Zuckman "report" is the fact that Harry Reid himself didn't bother to attend the all-nighter, opting instead for some sack time.

A fraudulent charade from beginning to end.

I hope the demos keep it going another day/nite & more until it passes. and oh yeah- IMPEACH NOW!!

I think the congress, both sides, should pull all-nighters till we have a solution to this mess. They are the ones who seek fame and fortune in politics, let them earn their money. The American government should be held to same sense of urgency as the Iraqi government. Hold them to that and see how fast we come up with some good answers.

How dumb and childish of the Democrats! A bunch of whinning babies as usual!! Do they even realize how immature they look?

This was a rediculous stunt as how can one think straight when up all night, not to mention the wear and tear on the next day's adgenda. If this is what we have from the new democratic leadership it is surely time to change leadership!

There are other very important problems facing our country and the democrats should be discussed such as immigration, health insurance, mortgage defaults and not Iraq.
Posted by: Hector P. Luat | July 18, 2007 9:13 AM

Way to avoid the 800lbs gorilla in the room. The families of the troops may disagree with you.

It's about time Democrats showed this level of spine. Their days of constant polite kowtowing to a bullying and power-mad Republican party must come to an end if they're going to stop this insane drive into autocracy. Their rationale has always been that people would reject them if they came on too strongly, but what's been happening is that their poll numbers plummet when the Washington Dems lie down, (see polls after the last war budget vote) while they're cheered when they contrast themselves starkly against the warmongering Republicans. It's about damn time.

Just a small point. Any vote will not end the war as is is only about US involvement in the war.

Least we forget, we started this action.

While it is costly, we should not walk away until we have left the area in better shape than when we found it.

It's about time Democrats showed this level of spine. Their days of constant polite kowtowing to a bullying and power-mad Republican party must come to an end if they're going to stop this insane drive into autocracy. Their rationale has always been that people would reject them if they came on too strongly, but what's been happening is that their poll numbers plummet when the Washington Dems lie down, (see polls after the last war budget vote) while they're cheered when they contrast themselves starkly against the war-crazed Republicans. NOw they need to smoke out these Republicans (like Voinovich) who make noises about being against the war but consistently vote otherwise.

First of all, let me be clear on one thing. I'm a Republican; the Democrats saw to that. But I have to break ranks on this one issue. We need to bring our men & women back and end this useless killing. Is there any ONE out there that doesn't believe that the minute we are gone, Iraq will be back to where they were when this all started. I truely believe that our President thought he could make a change for the better. But don't we see that the only change Iraq plans,,, IS US. I firmly believe that the terrorists wish to bring us down whether we are over there or not.
They say that even one
counts; so here I am.

Proud to be an American
Chuck Gray

First of all, let me be clear on one thing. I'm a Republican; the Democrats saw to that. But I have to break ranks on this one issue. We need to bring our men & women back and end this useless killing. Is there any ONE out there that doesn't believe that the minute we are gone, Iraq will be back to where they were when this all started. I truely believe that our President thought he could make a change for the better. But don't we see that the only change Iraq plans,,, IS US. I firmly believe that the terrorists wish to bring us down whether we are over there or not.
They say that even one
counts; so here I am.

Proud to be an American
Chuck Gray

>true and committed Americans in the REpublican Party!

That is the problem with you people. If someone isn't with you, they're 'unamerican'.

What's Kristol clear is that Neo Nuts have just not seen enough of our soldiers killed and maimed.

They want more.

Dems should run on one issue,if you want more dead soldiers and billions of wasted tax dollars,vote for Rudy.

Regarding the "other important issues" I was listening to C span last night and the Democrats wanted to convene an emergency session to deal with child health care authorization funding at 7pm. The Republicans objected and stopped it.

How can anyone but a left-wing liberal call this a Republican filibuster? The R crowd was ready to immediately vote on the bill. The Demos wanted to drag it out! Now who was filibustering?

jr

To all you zipper heads out there, sure WWll was shorter, but don't forget how we had to end it. with an A bomb, you knuckle heads out there forget that was total war, not this PC (nonsense).

I think our "leaders" should not try to be soldiers, they don't have the guts. Maybe they should go to Iraq and stay up all night, while being shot at. Talking is a lot safer, and they get pizza.

It is amazing that 60 votes is all that stands between more of our troops being killed. I think 120 days is not enough time. However a reasonable plan needs to be put into action. We put ourselves into this mess now we have to fix it. At the same time we cant leave Iraq without helping them establish some kind of government. Otherwise we will just be right back over there when other countries envade them because they are not organized.

Every American should take cognizance of the fact that those senators who support the philibuster, are in fact supporting Bush's policy of continuing this futile war. Remember in November of 08 who voted to continue this war.

They should have sent a dozen or so of these congressmen to an "all nighter" in Iraq. Let them stay up with the troops as they try to avoid snipers and roadside bombs.
Recall them all. They are all guilty of Treason for not protecting the Constitution.

This war has taken on a life of its own.It is obvious to the majority of the American people that Bush's war policy is incompetent and the Republicans value party loyalty above common sense.
In the end we will have more dead soldiers and more terrorism and Bush will leave office defending his incompetence.
Sad days but these days what passes as policy.

This really brings some necessary attention to those republican senators who speak out against the war yet continue to tow the party line. Instead of simply holding a yes or no vote in which the measure is not even expected to pass, republicans stall all night with endless debate and refusal to vote on cloture. It goes to show how much Bushies love to hear themselves speak.

Bill R., in case you hadn't noticed, but the evidence is that Hector Luat is a Democrat. He sees last night's charade for what it is.
How are the Democrats coming along on their campaign promises? Have they passed any of them yet?

Congress already funded the war. The rest is all a dog & pony show.

You guys have to be kidding me! You are just as bad as the members of the senate. Democrat this and Republican that. This is rediculous its not about one side or the other its about the troops and whats best for the country. Its time everyone who just wants what looks good for their side grow up! Support the troops, support the people of Iraq, and support a solution to ending this thing now or 10 years from now just find a solution that benefits as many people as possible.

dems knew they woudlnt get the vote this was probably just a publicity stunt

Harry Reid is an absolute joke. He votes to approve General Patreaus, along with a unanimous Senate, knowing full well of Patreaus' plan for a surge of troops in Iraq. From that date forward he has been working to undermine the troop surge with dog-and-pony shows like the one last night.

How fascinating.

All this sniveling and whining from Republicans about Senators staying up all night, but not a single comment about the Iraqi Government taking the month of August off while our troops are fighting and dieing in Tony Snow's "It's 130 degrees in Baghdad."

Yeah, you've got your priorities straight.

Sentor Pat Roberts and Sentor Sambrownback rule and Dems don't know what they are doing.

Enough is enough its time to bring a end to this tragedy



Manchester NH 03104

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

July 18, 2007
I'm Done Defending the Iraq Policy
By Ed Koch

I'm bailing out. I will no longer defend the policy of keeping U.S. troops in Iraq to assist the Iraqi central government in the ongoing civil war. While our men and women in the military suffer casualties daily, the Iraqi government refuses to take the major political actions required to end the civil war.

The U.S. government told the Iraqi leaders that it needed to achieve 18 goals. Our administration's recent report to the U.S. Congress on how close the Iraqis have come to achieving those goals states that eight have been achieved, no progress has been made on eight others, and two have had mixed results.

With regard to the most important goals, which include bringing the Sunni population into the government with the Shia by removing the bans against those (primarily Sunnis) who had served in the prior Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein, the grade was zero.

The Iraqi government similarly received a zero for failing to enact legislation that would equitably divide the oil income it receives among the three ethnic regions of Kurds, Sunni and Shia. Currently the Kurds and Shia share the oil revenues and have no problem doing so because the oil fields are located in the areas they control. The Sunni areas have very few oil fields.

For well over a year, I have urged the administration to issue an ultimatum to our Muslim allies of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan and Kuwait, all Sunni nations and our NATO allies in Europe. Unless they joined us with boots on the ground and contributed to the ongoing cost of the war against Al Qaeda and the insurgency in both Iraq and Afghanistan, we would leave. The cost to date for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is computed at about $400 billion and currently at $12 billion a month in Iraq. The Bush administration declined to do that, opting instead for what they call the surge, increasing our military forces to 160,000 by bringing in an additional 30,000 American troops. The Iraqis were asked to improve the battle readiness of their troops as well.

In September, our new commanding general on the ground, David Petraeus - hopefully President Bush's General Grant who won the American Civil War - will report on whether the surge is working. But already the administration suggests that September may not give us enough time to determine success or failure. In any event, General Petraeus has stated that political changes by the Iraqi government are necessary and that military progress by itself is not enough. The media recently reported that American soldiers on the ground fear they are being betrayed by and fired upon by both the Iraqi army engaged on the ground as their allies and by members of the Iraqi police force who often act as illegal militia, killing Iraqi civilians in the ongoing civil war between Shia and Sunni Muslims.

The American people no longer support our presence in Iraq. They made that clear in the 2006 Congressional election when the majority in both Houses of Congress shifted to the Democrats. My own position has been that we were better off fighting Islamic terrorism in Iraq than abandoning and having that battle shift to American soil which I am certain will happen when we depart Iraq. But my support for remaining in Iraq was conditioned on our allies joining us in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sadly, very few have done so. Instead, many of those same allies criticize us for staying in Iraq.

Only one major ally, Great Britain, has joined us with any serious contribution of troops. Even that in numbers - 7,100 - is paltry compared to our 140,000 troops now increased to 160,000. Tony Blair was cast out as Prime Minister in part because he supported the U.S. in Iraq. Under the new Prime Minister, Laborite Gordon Brown, the British commitment is shrinking and the inevitability of a minimal and ultimately no British troop presence is clear.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki stated over the weekend, "We say with confidence that we are capable, God willing, of taking full responsibility for the security file if the international forces withdraw in any time they wish."

The civil war escalates. This week alone on a single day more than 100 Iraqi civilians were killed and near 200 injured in two car bombings in the ongoing civil war. The statement of Iraq's Prime Minister whether accurate or not gives even the diehard supporters of George W. Bush the reason they need to support what most Americans desperately want: a pullout of American forces from Iraq. Our soldiers cannot end the civil war for them. Their soldiers have to do that. My voice is a modest one, so I would like to buttress my position with the arguments for withdrawal provided by the highly regarded New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman. In his July 11 column, he gave his reasons for supporting departure:

"But getting out has at least four advantages. First, no more Americans will be dying while refereeing a civil war. Second, the fear of an all-out civil war, as we do prepare to leave, may be the last best hope for getting the Iraqis to reach an 11th-hour political agreement. Third, as the civil war in Iraq plays out, it could, painfully, force the realignment of communities on the ground that may create a more stable foundation upon which to build a federal settlement.

Fourth, we will restore our deterrence with Iran. Tehran will no longer be able to bleed us through its proxies in Iraq, and we will be much freer to hit Iran - should we ever need to - once we're out. Moreover, Iran will by default inherit management of the mess in southern Iraq, which, in time, will be an enormous problem for Tehran."

I adopt Friedman's reasons as mine and repeat that I would support our troops remaining in Iraq if our allies were to join us. But they have made it clear they will not.

I propose that we do what the British did when they withdrew their troops from the historic Palestine Mandate they had assumed in 1922. They simply notified the United Nations that they would be gone by May 15, 1948, and they were, leaving to the U.N. to decide what it would do. It voted to partition Palestine and create two states: one Jewish and one Arab. Palestinians and Arab nations rejected the U.N. solution and waged war against the new Jewish State of Israel. With the exception of Egypt and Jordan, they still continue in a state of war with Israel, 59 years later.

I believe we can be out of Iraq in a few months if we want to leave, departing by way of Turkey in the north and via Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Jordan in the south and west. We should leave to the Iraqi army the supplies and materials they will need to protect themselves and take all else with us, after first arming the Kurds. Common decency requires that we take with us those Iraqi civilians who helped us and would be in danger when we left.

We should prepare for the battles that will take place on American soil by the Islamic forces of terror who are engaged in a war that will be waged by them against Western civilization for at least the next 30 years. They must be defeated for if, God forbid, they defeat us they will put us, the infidels, to the sword. They refer to Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and other Muslims they disagree with religiously as infidels.

Remember the words of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed after he killed Danny Pearl on February 1, 2002: "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the City of Karachi, Pakistan." He is the same Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that CNN referred to as "the suspected mastermind of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks." He is now in American custody.

Remember, they have threatened to kill Pope Benedict XVI.

Remember also how we refused to take seriously the threats Adolf Hitler made in his book Mein Kampf. There were only 80 million Germans at the start of World War II. There are now one billion 400 million Muslims. There is still not yet a majority who subscribe to the Wahabist fundamentalist belief popular in Saudi Arabia that they have a duty to kill the infidel who will not convert or pay tribute. But there are tens of millions of Muslim fanatics, including English doctors, who believe that is their sacred duty. Wake up, America.

Ed Koch is the former Mayor of New York City.

this is funny,the dems complaining about the iraqies not achieving thier benchmarks,what has our newly elected dem in congress achieved besides a useless min.wage increase that doesen't really effect anyone.

Why are Republicans so anti-troop and don't want our men and women to come home unless they are in a body bag or missing limbs? The repubs hate having our troops come home which defies all logic.
Bring on the Draft and watch these republican yahoo's end the war in days if not hours.

You are delusional if you thing that Bush and the congress only get a quarterly phone call from Patreaus. They get constant updates and briefing. What comes in September will be of no surprise to anyone accept the media pundits. Bush has flatly stated that he will not leave until he is out of the office. So the options to end the war are.

1. Wait out bushes term and hope a Democrat gets elected.

2. Congress passes legislation to end the war, or does not reauthorize funding.

3. Impeach bush and get him out of office early.

Lets change the language in this debate. A war is WON, occupations are ENDED. Bush said on the deck of an aircraft carrier sometime ago that combat operations were over and that we had WON the battle for Iraq. It is now time to END the occupation of Iraq.

Looking into the filibuster fishbowel, I am impressed that some of these political leaders remember their political science teachings! There are days and sometimes comments that leave me questioning their ability to represent US citizens. Even if they had to reach back in time to educate the public as to what a filibuster represents and means, they are drawing the public into a better-educated forum. There are too many uneducated opinions floating about in society, let alone Congress. To study the facts is knowledge; to 'jump on the bandwagon' is superficial!! God bless our soldiers!!

I READ WHERE THE DEMS SENT THE REPUBLICANS TUBES OF TOOTHPASTE DURING THE ALL-NIGHTER.. IF I WERE THE REPUBLICANS I WOULD HAVE SENT THE DEMS TUBES OF HEMORRHOIDAL CREAM IN RETURN.

C W Said: "You guys have to be kidding me! You are just as bad as the members of the senate. Democrat this and Republican that. This is rediculous its ... Support the troops, support the people of Iraq, and support a solution to ending this thing now or 10 years from now just find a solution that benefits as many people as possible."

Exactly Right! Stop the infantile bickering. Regardless of how it started, we need to worry more about helping ourselves, we need to help the Iraqi's make it out of this in a good way.

Put yourself in their shoes, imagine living in an oppressive society with dictators ruling according to radical religious beliefs. Now some foreign nation with a lot of resources comes to help out by attacking the corrupt leadership...even if it is in the name of getting at the harbored terrorist groups. Tell me do you really want that nation to leave you high and dry?

Unfortunately, history has shown that breaking the shackles of dictatorships is a bloody mess. We take for granted the bloodshed that gave us our current freedoms, which by the way, we did not acquire overnight either. To pull out now is more than a slap in the face to those who are unable to become free on their own. It's a message to the world that we're too selfish to help them enjoy what we do.

We need to stick it out, as ugly as that might be, demand more of the Iraqis to get their house in order, and only contemplate leaving when the job is done enough to be self sustaining.

We withdraw most of our troops and leave a few to fight the war? What happens to the few that our left behind, isn't that a death sentence for them? Maybe our politians should send their sons and daughters over to Irag to be the last to leave. Let our military really fight the war and we will end it. The governments puts too many restrictions on our fighting men.

When are we the people going to stand up against this BS that we have going on in Washington, DC.

I'm a Desert-Storm vet and I'm saying bring them now and let's address the real issues. Also that we need to get Bush and his entire crew out of the White House before they get our ass killed.

These people do not care about you, me nor America. The only thing I see that they care about is the $$$$!

I can care less about any political party, wake up America!

The way that it's looking now, is that "America" is being the "Terrorists"

Terrorism is a term used to describe unlawful violence or other unlawful harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political or other ideological goals.[1] Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target non-combatants.

As a form of unconventional warfare, terrorism is sometimes used when attempting to force political change by: convincing a government or population to agree to demands to avoid future harm or fear of harm, destabilization of an existing government, motivating a disgruntled population to join an uprising, escalating a conflict in the hopes of disrupting the status quo, expressing a grievance, or drawing attention to a cause.

John D.,

The federal minimum wage goes up to $5.85 July 24th.

Long overdue thanks to the Republican "family values" Party.

As I send another letter to my Brother (currently deployed) and my sons 6yrs and 9yrs old send letters to their Uncle today, sending him our prayers of well wishes to him and his fellow Marines, all who remain for this Iraq War, sleep comfortably tonight. I won't and my Family wont and many American Families with loved ones in harms way wont! I definitely know our Troops in this war wont. You think it's a Joke with comments I've read above, "Harry Reid hopefully has learned that his left wing tactics are not worth a pinch of coon poo.","How dumb and childish of the Democrats! A bunch of whinning babies as usual!! Do they even realize how immature they look?" and, "dems knew they woudlnt get the vote this was probably just a publicity stunt". It's not a joke, it's reality-deployments being extended and 2, 3, 4 and even 5 deployments.
I'm glad you can joke and I'm glad the Rep. Senators behind the Kentucky Rep. Senator were able to grin and smile when the remark about Casa Blanca was being made. I haven't heard my Brother's voice or received a letter from him in over a month. My Family and I go day by day experiencing the UNKNOWN. If the Iraqi parliament and people want freedom let them work and fight for it! That means don't take the month of August off even if it's 130 degrees. I'm sure they have the luxury of air condition offices. Imagine our Men and Women in the 130 degree temp. not able to bathe for 20 days with hot sand clinging to their body below the many pounds of equipment they are carrying around, not even 100% deet keeps the biting insects away while they make their way through the elements of the desert and being still hungry after finishing their MRE. Bring our Men and Women home, let them secure our borders, airports and ports. Let them secure America so we can get back to fixing our own domestic problems.

Proud Family Member of Many Military Men and Women who have served our wonderful Country!
Dolores in Texas

Evan you said "Put yourself in their shoes, imagine living in an oppressive society with dictators ruling according to radical religious beliefs."

Evan they are now in our shoes, how can we invade a county under false pretense and attempt to force a democratic values of them, when we do not have a democracy in America.

My solution is to pull our troops out and then have Bush humble himself to the UN and request for the UN to send in a peace keeping force to assist with Iraq.

Doug, I've already commented on my disapproval of the Iraqi govt. taking the month of August off. And I don't think Republicans are whining about staying up all night. It's more like pointing out the political stupidity of Harry Reid's misadventure.

Anyway, in regard to Ed Koch, well it is his right to no longer defend the Iraq policy.
It comes back down to this: Gen. Patraeus has a plan, that plan only has been implemeted for a few weeks now. His plan is beginning to work. He and his commanders are asking that they be given time, till Spring anyway. If that is what they want, then give it to them. If his plan is working by then, then we can begin a gradual draw-down. If it's failing, then we can begin a troop draw-down then too. 8ut give him the time he wants and needs.

"Put yourself in their shoes" imagine living in a country with little water, electricity, gasoline, or security; imagine a foreign army flying black hawk helicopters, driving assault vehicles, shooting machine guns and dropping bombs. Would you look to those people as liberators what ever the circumstances? I live in Tacoma Washington, home of the Stryker Battalions, Fort Lewis, and McCord Force Base. We see the C130 transports fly away with troops and equipment, and return with less than when they left. We see the black hawks and fighter planes train over head. We hear the bombing range training rattle our windows. In Tacoma it is very easy to imagine a foreign army occupying your country. We love our service members in this part of the country, but must difficult for them to see us as anything other than occupiers.

Wars are won, occupations are ended.

John D.,

And the rest of your "ilk?"

No Republican or Democrat can heal what America has done in Iraq.

There is one, and only one way to prove to the world that America is still able to stand with her head held high.

We the people must insist the criminals who now reside in our White House are prosecuted fully for abuse of power. I don’t care if it takes ten years, it must be done.

Why? Because we need to demonstrate to the world and to ourselves that Americans are not fools.

It is only after we humble this country back into shape can we progress onward. This means the next leader goes to the UN, just like Powell did when he lied in the false build up to sacking a country who posed zero harm to us. Our new leader must beg for forgiveness after admitting that America miss-stepped.

How else can we expect a response from the world after it is now perfectly clear that we need there help and cooperation?

It is the only way for us to regain America’s pride. America’s pride in freedom, justice, liberty, and the lost American prestige can all be regained if we take this painful step.

We need to understand this;
America let a little Hitler grab our hearts just like in Germany, but it is not too late, we can fix this mess.

Please give this some thought.

this is funny,the dems complaining about the iraqies not achieving thier benchmarks,what has our newly elected dem in congress achieved besides a useless min.wage increase that doesen't really effect anyone.

Posted by: robert vaden | July 18, 2007 11:31 AM

If you can contain your laughter for a moment and look out of your fine brownstone, you might notice that there are other people who it helps a great deal. Of course it doesn't really concern you so why would you care...right? You must be a republican. I guess you are of the belief that ever member of congress must be a democrat...right? The public is tired of the congress' actions, but when asked if that hurts the democrats, the reply is no because anything would be better than voting republican. The republicans had complete power and did zippo! But back to your smearky post........ Why don't you think the Iraqi government shouldn't be expected to meet benchmarks ?

Jason,

I respect what you and your state of Washington continue to sacrifice towards the war on The War on Terrorism.

I too live on one of those stats that have sacrificed much.

I'm from North Carolina, so image what's going on here.

Our freedoms in America, are illusions. Our government wants Americans to "Think" that we are "Thinking"!

My question is how did the best damn country on Earth get to this point?

Could it have been at the point when we gave more power to the individuals that represent us in DC, our local state governments and our local city governments than into the peoples hands where it belongs.

If we the people where really serious about this country doing better we would stand up against the BS...Wake up America!

Doug, many of my Republican friends, or "ilk" as I and now you like to say, are not happy about the Iraqis taking August off. It is ridiculous.
Now, in regard to minimum wage, Doug, most businesses in Illinois currently pay more than the state minimum wage. Why? Competition for workers. However, that will not last because Illinois keeps ramping up the minimum wage. As it goes up so do the prices at all fast food restaurants and most other places. The market does a better job of establishing pay rates than does the government.

Anonymous,

I totally agree with you...Amen!

""Put yourself in their shoes" imagine living in a country with little water, electricity, gasoline, or security; imagine a foreign army flying black hawk helicopters, driving assault vehicles, shooting machine guns and dropping bombs. Would you look to those people as liberators what ever the circumstances?..."

Quite possibly yes. It depends on what they were there to do and whether or not I understood their intentions. Violence can be used for good...and thus should not blindly be assumed to be bad, especially if it's being directed at bad and not at me.

"but must difficult for them to see us as anything other than occupiers."

You choose to think that. That's what we are told by the defeatist naysayers in the media and in our government. There are plenty of them who want our occupation and our support; to help them.

"Evan they are now in our shoes, how can we invade a county under false pretense and attempt to force a democratic values of them, when we do not have a democracy in America."
Huh? You feel that their conditions are anywhere remotely similar to ours (or vice versa)? And just because everyone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean we don't have a democracy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want anyone to die, least of all our own soldiers, God bless them. But if you honestly think that impeaching or imprisoning Bush and his staff, pulling our troops out, and putting the UN in charge is going to do anything other bring the wrath of the terrorists and dictators waiting in the wings down on the hopeful citizens of Iraq and empower the terrorists to follow us home, you are sadly mistaken and naive. For whatever reasons you want to believe, we are partly responsible for the war. It'd be nothing less than irresponsible to leave the hanging.

Evan,

I did not say to leave them hanging. I said to leave Bush and his crew hanging...

The Bush and his crew lied and innocent lives have been loss Americans and Iraqis.

America's going to have thousands of our troop coming home wounded fiscally and mentally all over a lie.After this cluster is over,will they have the support the country then?

America's wounded and the wound was self- inflicted.

Americans continue to support a President and his crew that clearly using their position of power for self- gratification.

America is a supper power, however we are far behind other well established countries. Why?

When in the hell do we have our Senate debating on C-Span now , Student Loans and education...this is a give me.

We are leading in everything for being unhealthy, drugs users, high school drops, teen age pregnancy, murder, just to name a few. Why?

Is this all by design Evan?
Now who is you are sadly mistaken and naive.

They way that I choose to support our troops is to stand up and fight for them, not support the lie that got them there...

"Huh? You feel that their conditions are anywhere remotely similar to ours (or vice versa)? And just because everyone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean we don't have a democracy."

Yes I do Evan, the only difference between us and them are, the Iraqs know that have been screwed by the leadership of America and "WE" Americans have no idea that was have and continue to be screwed by the leadership of America...I don't know about anyone else, but if I going to be screwed, I'll like to give my consent prior to, so that I can enjoy it...so the bottom line could be, that we are screwing ourselves...Wow

"Huh? You feel that their conditions are anywhere remotely similar to ours (or vice versa)? And just because everyone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean we don't have a democracy."

Yes I do Evan, the only difference between us and them are, the Iraqs know that have been screwed by the leadership of America and "WE" Americans have no idea that was have and continue to be screwed by the leadership of America...I don't know about anyone else, but if I going to be screwed, I'll like to give my consent prior to, so that I can enjoy it...so the bottom line could be, that we are screwing ourselves by not standing up against the BS...Wow

we should make them filibuster day and night until the republican sleaze begin to drop like flies from one coronary to the next...

frankly, i'm opposed to time tables... i think that the moral cowardess shown by this country as a whole in not demanding bush and cheney's indictment for treason, trial and execution-- cannot be taken out on the iraqi people... if it will be a gigantic disater if we just pull the plug, then we are obligated to stay long enough at least so as not to CAUSE an implosion as we pull out...

but this is irrelevant... bush cheney should be tried for treason (dozens of counts each), and if convicted on one single count, hung until dead...

that is the lesson in democracy the world needs to see...

but we don't have it...

corporate media chieftans are too busy enjoying your doughter's maoth on their 'u know what' to allow the truth to be shown on the mainstream media outlets they own/control...

"The Bush and his crew lied and innocent lives have been loss Americans and Iraqis.

America's going to have thousands of our troop coming home wounded fiscally and mentally all over a lie.After this cluster is over,will they have the support the country then?

America's wounded and the wound was self- inflicted.

Americans continue to support a President and his crew that clearly using their position of power for self- gratification."
What you don't seem to understand, is that this vote is not supposed to be a decision on how to punish our leaders for mistakes they may have made. It's a decision on whether to continue our responsibilities in Iraq.

The Iraqies don't deserve getting screwed because of this decision. Can't you pursue your impeachment goals and get rid of Bush and the current administration without withdrawing from Iraq?

Or wait, is it that you want to impeach Bush, screw Iraq, and then get to say that it's Bush's fault that Iraq is screwed?

I believe it's a thinly veiled version of the latter. If you had any morals, you'd continue to fight for the freedom of some 26 million Iraqi's (those that deserve a chance) and continue your efforts to get rid of the Bush administration as a completely independent effort.
Please tell my why the Iraqi's should suffer more than they have because Bush "lied."

There is certainly a argument to be made about preventing further American deaths "because of a lie" via withdrawal. But what are the consequences? Prove that we can be as impotent as the UN at fighting terrorist and dictators? Show the terrorists that we're pansies who would rather get attacked on their terms rather than pay a certain price to keep our people safer?

Now whether or not our returning troops will have the support they need really depends on whether people like you continue to try and convince the general populous that this whole affair was bad in an absolute sense. Go ahead, get rid of Bush, string him up, whatever. But by stigmatizing the war as if it is senseless evil that has no benefit to anyone, you will be responsible for the stigmatization of the troops in the minds of the ignorant who won't want to support the ones needing financial and medical help "because of what they did."

"America is a supper power, however we are far behind other well established countries. Why?"

I don't know. I work hard and am pretty well off financially. I feel I'm contributing to society pretty well via my volunteer efforts and charitable contributions (did you know that while we suck at nearly everything we're the most charitable nation in the world). I haven't done illegal drugs, ever. I had my child with my wife, with whom I have a good relationship, after waiting until we felt we were able to provide well for our boy. I'm not in the most magnificent shape, but I'm not that bad off. I like to watch some television, but it's not all I do. While I've been quite frustrated with a number of people in life, I opted not to murder them or even assault them as it seemed that it would have a sudden negative impact on my lifestyle. Why have I turned out okay???? Is it because the government made me do it?? No, it's because I had the freedom to make something for myself and I chose to. My parents, who I think were good parents, taught me that if I want something, I have to work for it, it will not arrive on a silver platter.

Perhaps, when people have lots of freedoms, some will excel and others will insist on remaining at the other end of the distribution. What magical legislation [like we need any more] do you want passed that will change the desires of the people who choose not to excel? What do you plan to do about those in society who try to hold back others? Do you think that telling them their country sucks is helping them? Which makes me wonder, [tongue-in-cheek] if the USA sucks so bad, why are you still here?

Typical Republican LIES and LIARS.

Perfect examples.

jr Jim R. @ 8:28am - Jim is either ignorant or a blantant liar hoping to confuse the un-educated. This IS a REPUBLICAN filibuster. The Republicans are not or have not been willing to vote on this bill. Check the facts and STOP LYING!

Bruce @ 9:23am - Harry was there. It is well documented. You Sir, are a LIAR!

Why does the party that claims to be the champion of morality need to resort to LIES to get what they want?

Evan,

I understand that the amendment calls for troops to begin withdrawing from Iraq in the next 120 days, but would leave behind an unspecified number of soldiers necessary to fight terrorists, train Iraqi soldiers and protect American assets.

Evan we must ask ourselves, how did America get in this position?

I feel that until we the people in America stand up and say to the world that
"We the people in America have had enough of this so call illusion of our dictator & Co (President & Co) spreading democracy and fighting terrorisms around the world"

Until WE in America hold our own people that we have chosen to represent us accountable,the rest of the world will stigmatize all Americans...

No... the Iraqies don't deserve getting screwed because of this decision nor do Americans.

Sure we pursue our impeachment goals and get rid of Bush and the current administration without withdrawing from Iraq?

This is the only way that the rest of the world would take America (The Supper Power) serious again.

If Bush and his crew has lied about this serious issue what else have they lied about or what else are they lying about, in the name of spreading democracy and fighting terrorisms around the world"

You said if had any I morals, "I'd would continue to fight for the freedom of some 26 million Iraqi's (those that deserve a chance) and continue your efforts to get rid of the Bush administration as a completely independent effort."

Until we in America have the morals to stand up a free ourselves from the root cause of the honorific event that is taking place our history, we can not free anyone else...

Evan what is that price that you are willing to pay in the name of this freedom? Do you plan on sending your son to Iraq? I have a 18 year old son and I have stated to him that he will be going to college and not Iraq.

America is at the point where we must save face and we are not going to be able to do this alone, we must have the UN working with us in Iraq.

Evan I'm happy that you are doing well,however many others in America are not.

Yes we are the most charitable nation in the world, however charity starts at home.

Equal access to education is going to a be one key.

WE must continue to fight for programs like Head Start.

WE must make it affordable for everyone to receive a higher education in America.

WE must come up with affordable health care for everyone in America.

WE must ensure that all founds and resources are accessible to everyone in America.

WE must hold the companies that are hiring illegal emigrants accountable.

We must hold these people that we elect to represent us accountable.

These are the basics Evan.

I do not feel that America suck Evan, I feel that many of the people that we have elected to run America suck and despite that I stil feel like America is the best damn country on earth to be in ,however I WE can do better.

Only in America can a well to do and educated man on one side of the country say to man on opposites side of the country [tongue-in-cheek]...Only in America...

We have our troops in the middle of a civil war...

I hit post before I made my corrections to my last post...I hate when that happens...

I just beleave that the truth must be reveled and then at this time we can reconciliate with the rest of the world...

These are a few audio examples from The Greensboro NC Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

http://www.box.net/shared/n0bjgndi5y

Let's learn from this...

For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead...Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) Third president of the United States