I disagree with your final conclusion -- it does matter what black people think no matter who controls the debate.

In theory, the opportunities are equal for all children. But the reality is that many black children live in poor neighborhoods with poor school districts, and those school districts don't get the supplies, equipment and many other perks that the wealthier school districts get.

I am white, middle-aged, and my parents sent me to catholic schools. My parents were lower middle class people who struggled to make ends meet. To pay my high school tuition, I worked at the high school I attended. My parents were very involved with me in school. I did well in school and am doing OK in life. There are thousands of wealthy white people who had many, many more advantages than me and now are in the upper exchelons of society. I don't begrudge them this.

No matter what the situation or how great the inequities, nothing excuses a parent from being involved with their child's education. I think white people need to recognize where black people are coming from, and I think black people need to take more responsibility for the upbringing of their children.

Amen, Tom. But all parents, no matter race, need to become more involved in their children's education, take responsibility of scores and grades are low rather than blame the teachers, and begin being parents rather than best friends.

Tom...I agree 100%. I believe that the schools systems failing in past years has been the lack of support and help provided by parents.

Or put another way, "Who's right on this issue: the 11% of Americans who are Black, or the 89% majority of Americans?"

A truly sad fact is that only 8 percent of Chicago public school students are white. If the opportunities are equal, has anyone sought to find out why that is the case? Is enough being done to attact white students to Chicago public schools? And no, it is not true that the parents of all white students can afford private schools.

"Who's right on this issue: the 11% of Americans who are Black, or the 89% majority of Americans?"

Posted by: Bruce | July 2, 2007 4:26 PM

Why Bruce....you seem to have that foot in mouth also. Is it silver?

Yeah I like Brucie's thinking. Who's right, the 66% of Americans that think the Iraq occupation is a mistake, or the 33% that are completely delusional?

Vouchers would solve that one - than parents, all parents, would have no one to blame but themselves (and their children).

A truly sad fact is that only 8 percent of Chicago public school students are white. If the opportunities are equal, has anyone sought to find out why that is the case? Is enough being done to attact white students to Chicago public schools? And no, it is not true that the parents of all white students can afford private schools.

Posted by: Shanika | July 2, 2007 6:07 PM

Well, Shanika, since the involuntary busing of the 60's and 70's ticked off white parents,Chicago now uses magnet schools to attract and keep middle class students in the school system. If that voluntary program is no longer legal, my guess is that scores will dip and more white parents (and other middle-class families) will bail. There are no simple causes or solutions to educational inequities.

Terry, where are all the fabulous schools to absorb all of the voucher students? Vouchers are just ploy by the religious right to get government money to home school their children. See Tom's post above. The Catholic schools are a huge system in Chicago. All of the parents are taxpayers and all of them exercise school choice by sacrificing to send their kids to school. Apparently, they are not waiting around for government help.

As far as the question posed about who is right on education, they both are.

I don't understand why my posting this afternoon was censored. So I am going to submit it again under the assumption that it wasn't the content that was censored, but some slipup ocurred on the internet.
A book that I recommend which I feel is pertinent to the topic is The Children in Room E4:American Education on Trial by Susan Eaton. She has written extensively on the growing segration of American public education. She spent 4 years observing a third grade class at Simpson-Waverly School in Hartford, Connecticut admiring an outstanding teacher struggling against a failing system that is isolating the black and Latino students that comprise the school. Eaton monitored the halting progress of the historic hard-won desegration ruling of Brown vs Board of Education. Today 94% of the students in Hartford are black and Latino; most of them are poor. Isolated by race and class, separate and unequal defines the educational experience of these students and countless others in cities across the country. Teachers working in these schools say segregation has become "a condition they'd had to accept as a given."
Defacto segregation, a term used to distinguish Northern racial patterns seemed to suggest no one was to blame. But zoning, the drawing of school boundries, student--transfer policies, mortgage programs were all actions by public and governmental agencies that had promoted racial/ethnic segregation.
This troubling book leaves one to wonder what the answer might be for those that are being left behind. The policy of magnet schools and a voluntary transfer program in Hartford still left 94% of the students in the same quandry. Testing and curriculum alignment put wasted energies on testing and standardization and left little hope for the majority of students in policies dedicated to pumping up test scores.
Last week's Supreme Court ruling has put another nail in the coffin of Brown--barring even voluntary programs aimed at acheiving "racial equality" in schools. Is it not time now for relief for those locked in a system where children are laboring under poverty and segregation.

I think white people need to recognize where black people are coming from, and I think black people need to take more responsibility for the upbringing of their children.

Posted by: Tom | July 2, 2007 3:33 PM

What a sad discussion. Caucasian, African-American, Asian, Latino,.... All of these kids are growing up in a world that is vastly different from anything we knew at their ages. A lot of these kids live with violence on a daily basis and have become desensitized by the effects. It's sad. I know a 30 year old Latino man who has walked on a cane since he was 17. He was shot in the back walking home from work one night.

I don't think race is the issue. I think the society to which we've ALL contributed is the issue. This is the first generation that is being left a world in worse shape than the one their parent's inherited. I'm glad I don't have kids.

Catherine,

On Shanika's point, where do you think the majority of white CPS teachers send their own kids (since they have to live in the city). To the private/religious schools. That's like the Coke employee drinking Pepsi.

I know how large the Chicago Catholic school system is, it is large due to the incompetency of the CPS.

Where would the schools come from? They would come from religious organizations and private organizations. They would sprout up very quick.

Think about this from a product point of view: One product spends about 50% on the production of its product and gives it away as compared to its competitor and yet can only get 85% of the market nationwide (much lower within Chicago).

Where would the schools come from? They would come from religious organizations and private organizations. They would sprout up very quick.

Posted by: Terry | July 3, 2007 7:00 PM

Terry, you're being naive about schools popping up. There is a whole industry of public school bashers that have a financial interest in getting their hands on educational dollars and you recite their simplistic talking points nicely.
Chris Whittle and others have tried to launch for profit schools that will allegedly do better than public schools. They've been unsuccessful so far. Charter schools have not surpassed the scores of public schools either when you compare similar students.
The bottom line is that middle class parents don't want their children to go to school with children from poor backgrounds. They would like the government to give them extra money to school their kids. Sounds a little socialist to me. Also teachers don't want to work with difficult students especially now that NCLB says that if students don't achieve, teachers should be fired. Like it or not, impoverished students with serious social problems are entitled to a free and appropriate education, the same as your kids and mine.

CAtherine,

Of course these schools haven't had the success some thought they would. It's because the rice variable is still the equation.

Introduce vocuhers into the education equation, thus eliminating or drastically reducing the tuition portion of education and you will see inner city public education enrollment drop by over 50% easily.

So what if middle class parents don't want their kids to go to school with poor kids; it shouldn;t mean that the poor kids shouldn't have choices for a better education so they have a chance to break the cycle of poverty.

Socilaism is our current public education system - taxpayer funded and operated by the gov't. With vouchers, you would have taxpayer funded, privately run with gov't (hopefully limited)regulation (regulation - what gov't does best).

I agree that impoverished children should be entitled to a free and appropriate education - unfortunately, they only get the free part.

Introduce vocuhers into the education equation, thus eliminating or drastically reducing the tuition portion of education and you will see inner city public education enrollment drop by over 50% easily.

Posted by: Terry | July 5, 2007 8:38 PM

And their scores would probably go up.
If vouchers and charter schools take the most difficult students ONLY and turn them around, I'll buy. Otherwise it's just another money grab by industries that were formed to grab this money.

Socilaism is our current public education system - taxpayer funded and operated by the gov't.

Isn't that true of police, fire, Medicare, garbage pickup etc?

Catherine,

Police and fire - the local version of defense - s/b a gov't function.

Medicare - should be scrapped.

garbage - Where I live the homeowner is responsible for contracting his own garbage service. Amazing, personal responibility can work!!!

As far as the difficult students - could they be doing any worse? Should we just throw them under the bus? Give the private sector a chance with these kids - what have we got to lose?

Scores for all students would go up. If the parents don't see results from school One, they will take their voucher/money and go find a school that will meet their child's needs.

Why is it when it comes to the viablity of a fetus, it's a choice; but when it comes to a child's education, its one size fits all - unless you can afford to do otherwise.

Terry, I threw in Medicare because I know you're against it. It seems pretty efficient, though.

"Why is it when it comes to the viablity of a fetus, it's a choice; but when it comes to a child's education, its one size fits all - unless you can afford to do otherwise"

Terry, it's people like the framers of NCLB and your local school board that are saying one size fits all in the classroom. No effective teachers that I know believe that at all.

"As far as the difficult students - could they be doing any worse? Should we just throw them under the bus? Give the private sector a chance with these kids - what have we got to lose?"
No, I don't think they should be thrown under the bus at all. But most of the voucher- charter dudes think so. Seriously, Terry, there are not enough schools to absorb the vouchers. How many students could your children's school take? As it is these charter school don't submit evaluating data to state boards of education. How would you know how good a school is if they won't show quantitative information? They just talk about waiting lists to get in and other nonsense. Most of them waste way more taxpayer money than any public school.
"Amazing, personal responsibilty can work!!"

It works for my family too, but the children of people that take no responsibility for anything show up at public schools and most schools do a pretty decent job of taking care of them.

Terry, we will have to agree to disagree on this and many other issues. What you consider to be getting government out of people's lives, I consider the next scandal. You know, Terry Schiavo, the S & L debacle, etal. I'm sure Haliburton's scandals will be interesting. with the huge waste of taxpayer money.

Catherine,

I have coached in the circles of some of these schools and you will be amazed what can suffice for classrooms, as long as the learning takes place. It seems your biggest hang-up with vouchers is how the infrastructure is going to be built.

The public school system has failed many a poor child, its time to try something different - otherwise the cycle of poverty will just continue.

Now you're confusing me Terry. I'm not hung up on infrastructure at all. And I agree that if learning is taking place . it has merit. But it sounds like you are accepting excuses from the voucher schools that you find unacceptable from the public schools.
Quick question! Since the Chicago schools have raised test scores (allegedly) and the teachers' contract expires this summer, do you think the teachers deserve a
raise?
This is not about education, but check out this link. It's in reference to my previous post about smaller government.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/06/AR2007070601993.html?nav=rss_print/outlook

Interesting article. As a general stmt, I'm not in favor of outsourcing our national defense. There are some basic parts can be outsourced: e.g.; the cafeteria, but what I read in the article, if true, goes a bit too far in my opinion.

The teachers deserve a raise to keep up with inflation. I would like to see more merit pay. I also believe that if the teachers feel they are important, they should give up the right to strike, like the police and firemen.

Catherine, drive the Dan Ryan, which is currently under construction. The construction is being funded by federal and state tax dollars, but who is performing the work? Private contractos with oversight by IDOT engineers.

Why couldn't this work with schools?

Catherine, drive the Dan Ryan, which is currently under construction. The construction is being funded by federal and state tax dollars, but who is performing the work? Private contractos with oversight by IDOT engineers.

Why couldn't this work with schools?

Posted by: Terry | July 9, 2007 8:51 PM

I frequently drive the Ryan. You are aware that Walsh Construction is majorly politically connected and that it's a union shop.

I would be for merit pay if they could figure out a way to show what progress is. Right now, it is all about scores. Student progress should be more than just the results of a weeks worth of testing Also it almost guarantees that better teachers won't stay in the schools in poorer neighborhoods. They all get out if they can because of the punitive nature of NCLB and because of how tough it is to be beat up mentally every day. I believe in accountabilty for schools but everything needs to be accounted for. A friend of mine once worked in a school ready for reconstitution that had 38% of the student body in foster care. Can you imagine the needs of these children? Do you think that academic achievement might not rate highly in their lives? By the way, she transferred to better school as soon as she could.
A statistic I would like to see is the turnover of teaching staff at these charter schools. I believe that it's pretty high. Teachers are supposed to grant unlimited access to parents and students to the detriment of their own family obligations. And of course the pay is crap because you are supposed to teach purely out of love for children.

All the Educational Industrial complex Lobby cares about is union-busting and getting their hands on education dollars. And they put out misleading data to get people to buy into their "vision."

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Catherine,

Yes I know Walsh is a union shop. Sate law mandates that road work is done by a union shop.

Pay is crap????

visit this website for teacher salaries in Illinois by School District, by teacher. Plenty of six figure salaries going around.

www.thechampion.org

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Charter school teachers generally make crappy money and have poor working conditions.

I have been familiar with Jack Roeser's website for years. Teachers' pay isn't so bad. It's the other BS.

"Who's right on this issue: the 11% of Americans who are Black, or the 89% majority of Americans?"

Posted by: Bruce | July 2, 2007 4:26 PM

Wow, I wish I read this blog earlier. Is there anything more racist than that?

Say, Brucie, why don't you move to Mississippi circa 1955, when the overwhelming white majority was allowed to oppress blacks.

Why do white people need to recognize where black people are coming from? ALL CHILDREN need the same things. They need food, clothing, shelter to just survive, BUT they need nurturing and love to thrive and become all they can be. To become good citizens CHILDREN need to be taught to respect others and to honor their country. They need to be taught to respect authority and obey the law. These are things they should learn at home. No matter how poor. Society's biggest problem is the break down of the family. All the ills of society are played out in our schools.