"Biden appeals to Senate on Iraq"

75% of America is with you Senator Biden but the Republic Party knuckledraggers still want to fall on their swords for President 29% and continue the policy of getting more of our troops killed in someone elses civil war.

You don't just "allow" the development of semi-autonomous regions "that would give local politicians control over police, jobs, education, and government services." You have to impose it.

This is why Senator Biden's plan is insane. He is asking his colleagues in the U.S. Senate to impose a new political regime in Iraq? And this is for the same Iraq that already has a constitution, an elected government and sovereignty?

What he suggests is something the U.S. government doesn't have the power to accomplish short of a re-conquest of Iraq. They already have a governmental and political structure. If we want to change it against their will, we would have to overthrow them. Then, we would have to keep even more troops in Iraq to quell the natives who would then be even angrier.

And he can kiss goodbye the idea of getting international support for such a plan. Nobody else out there in the world wants to be part of a new Iraq occupation to restructure the political system. They saw how much fun we've had the first time.

No, this is not a good idea.

Hmm. Someone send for Greenspan, quick! He can tell if Biden was toking up when he came up with this brilliant idea.

John E gives his usual nonsensical BS.
John W, as usual, makes well-thought comments. Having said that, I do believe Biden's idea is worth looking into. Not saying it can be done. As John W points out, it probably can't for a host of reasons.
While a partisan, Biden at least thinks things through, whether his end-game is right or wrong, at least there is a thinking process there. And he was the only Dem presidential candidate to at least criticize the unAmerican moveon.org ad.

Why haven't the Democrats given us a plan? Just one!All they do is whine and hate George Bush!

Biden is clear, intelligent, right on - more than Hillary can ever manage.

TYPICAL REPUBLICANS, The DEMS HAVE GIVEN YOU A PLAN.

(1) To get 7 GOP men to step up and be a MAN.

(2) No Fillibuster but an up and down vote.

(3) Have all GOP petiphiles come out of the closet at once.

(4) NO RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY FOR ANYONE, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENT, ALBERTO GONAZALES, HARRIET MEIRS, AT&T, VERIZON WIRELESS AND any one else that conspired and eavesdropped on an American Citizen on American Soil without a Court order.

(5) RE-READ GENERAL PATREAUS INSURGENCY FIELD MANUAL ALOUD. AND FOLLOW IT. INSTEAD OF GEORGE BUSH, DICK CHENEY, STALL AMERICA NO EXIT STRATEGY PLAN.

(6) IMPEACH GEORGE BUSH
(7) IMPEACH DICK CHENEY
(8) RELEASE CONDI RICE

RESTORE ORDER IN THE MILITARY AND BRING OUR TROOPS HOME.

THAT WAS THE PLAN, DIDN'T YOU GET IT.

Count me in the "not a big fan of Biden" group. That said he is way better than Hillary and should be doing better in the primaries than he is.

Straw Man Alert. I do not read above that Biden advocates "imposing" anything, through the Senate or any other way. We are propping up a weak, corrupt and murderous central government, which has no ability to function. As long as the Bushies keep up the fiction that Maliki represents governance, they got nuthin'. They will not "allow" the Iraqis to have what they want. That's the very definition of insanity: to keep doing the same ineffective and stupid things and expect different results.

What's your plan, Mr. W? How many years of experience with foreign policy do you have? How many trips to Iraq have you made? What qualifies you to trash this good man? Biden makes sense. Out here in Iowa, he has growing support, and this shows why.

John W, that's where this thing called "diplomacy" comes in - something the republicans are just not fond of (they prefer to go to war and kill! kill! kill!).

Besides, lets face it, the current political regime in Iraq is nothing but a puppet regime installed by us, so why can't we use a little diplomacy to influence a change towards a more realistic system of government?

I believe Biden's plan is worth a serious look. It's the best plan I've seen so far from either side of Congress.

It's already in the Iraqi constituion that the iraqi people should be governed with a powerful local government and a weaker national government.

The problem is that were using our influence inside the Iraqi government to back a strong national government. And that won't happen for a long, long time. The country needs to give more control to the local government so that these people can be looked after by somebody they trust.

This is the only way that Iraq can be united without a solution most of us would find unreasonable. So it's either, try Biden's plan, stay there for the next few decades with 100,000 troops, install another brutal dictator, or withdrawl and let some CRAZY meglomaniac use "Hate America" propaganda to take over. Osama Bin Laden II, except he'll have his own country with mass amounts of oil. In that case your grandkids will be fighting in a jihad.

Biden seems like a good guy, just drop all the prejudice against politicians, if there is a good one out there, its this guy. PLEASE WAKE UP AMERICA AND TRY TO THINK CLEARLY ON THIS ONE. Its the most important decision you'll ever be apart of. Besides, what could possibly be your problem with Joe Biden?

Roger Morris's burned out Caps Lock key has been repaired... SIGH.

John D, what points of John W's argument were so good? He's worried about dismantling a government that doesn't exist? He's worried about the US imposing something on the Iraqis...did I miss something about what's been going on the last four years? Any plan at this point is loaded with negative consequences. We destablized a powderkeg waiting to happen and rolled out the carpet for AQ to make it extra special. Biden is a pompous bore at times but he's a pretty intelligent guy who has studied the region and Iraq in particular for some time. It seems he is simply proposing to accelerate the inevitable -- physically separate the factions who want to kill each other into their own space. The problem is what do you do with places like Baghdad that have a heavy ethnic mix. His solution would require further displacement of civilians, or basically create more refugees. Its not pretty.

kb, Baghdad would become a federal city that would need a residual force to keep peace for a small time relative to the country. Their not going to be taking people out of their homes in places where ethnicity is mixed.

“We are not going to settle this civil war by remaining on the fault lines,”

Joe Biden. A voice of reason.

Speaking of reason. I think I'm seeing things because John D made a comment that wasn't insane and riddled with ranting. Glad ya got on those meds John. Congratulations!!!

kb:

So you are in favor of putting more troops in Iraq, fighting a longer war, spending more tens or hundreds of billions of dollars, and last, but not least, incurring hundreds or even thousands more casualties in dead and wounded American soldiers, marines and airmen?

That's what it would realistically take to implement Biden's plan. It is totally unrealistic to believe the, after we have already given Iraqi's their sovereignty back, that they would treat lightly any attempt on our part to conduct surgery on their political system.

If they allowed us to do so, it would prove to the world that they are nothing but our puppets. They would never admit that even were it true. That is why they would never go for it. If we tried, you would finally see a united Iraq all right – Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis united against us.

So, what is it about a longer, costlier, bloodier war that you are so enthralled about?

Dan:

This isn’t a Republican vs. Democrat thing, and what you said is internally contradictory in any event.

Why resort to "diplomacy" if the government is such a puppet regime? We wouldn't have to. We would just be able to dictate it to them. Right?

Then why aren't they listening? We have been begging them to come to some form of political resolution for a long time. But all they do is bicker. After that, they go on vacation. [I don’t even know if they are back yet.] So, tell me what makes you think that more talking is going to get through to them, or make them budge?

In addition, what you also don't seem to get - and which doesn't appear in the article above - is the fact that Biden is actively seeking a change in Iraq’s governmental and political structure. He has always advocated partitioning of Iraq into three parts, leaving three autonomous regions with only a weak central government among them.

There is no way that the Shiites, who represent 60% of the population, are going to settle for only a fraction of the power, land or oil revenues in the country; much less agree to OUR new line drawing scheme. They don’t have to agree to this without coercive force, and it is not in their own best interests to agree.

Furthermore, if the Iraqi government has sovereignty, and it does, then the time has already passed for us to start correcting their political system. It is up to the Iraqis to correct their own political system, if at all. It is up to them to ruin everything now if that is what they choose.

2LaneIA:

I guess I have to spell it out to you in simpler terms – because that truly wonderful Iowa education system seems to have failed you.

1. We already handed over sovereignty to Iraq;

2. They already have a Constitution which spells out the frame of government;

3. That Constitution was ratified by a popular vote of the Iraqi people;

4. Pursuant to that same Constitution, they have elected a Parliament, President and Prime Minister; and the latter have appointed subordinate ministers.

5. Even the Iraqis who want us in Iraq view us as a necessary evil. They would prefer we weren’t there. The rest of them view us as simply evil.

6. Biden’s plan proposes a change to the frame of government through congressional action. The plan proposes a division of Iraq in a way that is sure to dissatisfy everyone there;

7. The Iraqi Parliament, President and Prime Minister resent having us tell them what to do, and they insist that they don’t need us any more; and,

8. The Iraqi government has resisted our pleas to find a political solution to the problems there.

So, unless Senator Biden intends to have use force to implement his plan, his ideas are just so much hot air. Moreover, by our own concessions, we no longer have the power to change Iraq’s government. The fact we handed over sovereignty to them means its their call whether to change any part of their government.

For us to now go over there and tell them to change their government would be about the same as the British coming over here and trying to tell us that we should adopt a parliamentary system, and that we should have nine or ten provinces like those in Canada instead of 50 states. You can imagine what we would say to that.

And, you know what else? I don’t need to be a genius, a foreign policy expert or an habitué of Iraq to draw these conclusions. It’s just plain ol’ common sense.

By the way, don’t tell me about Iowa and Iowans. I lived there and went to school there. I received my undergraduate degree from one of the many small, liberal arts colleges there. I also own a farm about 70 due east of Sioux City – and all the farmers I know are Republicans. As far as they are concerned, the best use for Democrats is fertilizer. I can’t bring myself to disagree.

Biden's model worked in Bosnia. Also, I don't think Bush believes there is a government in Iraq yet either. No working central government to respect yet. For the first time Iraq acted like a sovereign nation and told Bush no Blackwater. And then Bush basically told al-Maliki to pound salt- since Blackwater is back up and running. Bush maybe does not like the idea of three partitions- more red tape to split the oil.

John W

You need to personally let our government know what to do since you seem to have all the facts. This is an attempt at sarcasm. I figured I needed to spell that out for you. You can’t be more wrong on this both factually and philosophically. It’s just your partisan hate shinning through – a complete credibility shedder.

Saw the Speech live on C-Span. One of Joe's best.

Unfortunately, intellectual dishonesty, protecting the GOP, and Lieberman's GOP VEEP aspirations trump any rational way forward in Iraq.

The Senate should just mail it in. So-called debate rarely, if ever, changes votes. Usually, few bodies, if any. are in the Senate or House Chambers in-between votes other than speakers and staff ... C-Span isn't permitted to show the empty spaces.

Why not let Congress adjourn forever and hold votes and hearings by video conference? The Senators could just dilute or kill public interest legislation by tele-conferences. Earmarks and pork could be arranged by Email.

The dope sociopath in The White House appears to be having his way with most legislation.

James Carville says we're winning in his most recent pitch for donations for the DSCC.

Newt Gingrich wants $30 million in pledges to become the next GOP White Hope.

Its only Friday ... so there is likely more disingenuous B.S. and distortions to come over the weekend.

* * * * *

You can’t be more wrong on this both factually and philosophically. It’s just your partisan hate shinning through – a complete credibility shedder.

Posted by: Whit | September 21, 2007 5:45 PM

You'd better explain that one, pal. You just can't drop a clanker like that and move on.

I don't "hate" anything or anyone. I just see Biden's move as a recipie for more involvement in Iraq, and a greater loss of treasure, lives and limbs.

So, please favor me, Mr. big on judgment and short on analysis, why exactly you said what you did.

John W,

Why are you so mad, everyone should be trying to figure out the best way to save lives and freedom. I don't think name calling is going to help the cause. Were all on the same team trying to come up with solutions. Whats your plan anyway? I'm not being sarcastic, either. What you think?

Josh M:

Okay, on the theory that you are serious, I'll tell you.

Get those who have most to loose from this war who aren't involved - involved. I am speaking primarily about Iraq's regional neighbors. If Iraq doesn't settle down, those countries have a lot to lose. They are where most of the Iraqi refugees are. They are the ones who stand to suffer the most if Iraq's internal turmoil spills over its borders. Furthermore, their involvement removes any taint or shame from being controlled by infidels.

Thus, I would propose a peace-keeping cooperative consisting of Iraq's immediate neighbors, including Egypt, Jordan, SA, the UAE, Kuwait, Turkey, and yes, even Syria and Iran. All of these countries fear the fallout of chaos in Iraq. It wouldn't be too much to propose that they get involved. All alternatives are worse.

I might add, that nothing Biden proposes is going to work if regional support and cooperation don't go into it as well.

BTW, what's with the hate and name calling bit? I called no one any names. The harshest thing I said was that some Republican Iowa farmers believe the best use for Democrats is fertilizer. That doesn't mean I hate them even if I agreed. It would only mean that I have little positive use for them based on their party affiliation. And if you are new to the Swamp, that's pretty mild in comparison to what gets tossed around here.

Posted by: John W. | September 21, 2007 6:53 PM

Come on John, you know we need to try something different in Iraq.
Why not give Biden's plan a shot? it couldn't be any worse than what W. and Cheney have already "done" and are contnuing to do.....nothing.

I am on pins and needles waiting for the next four months to pass to find out what will happen. I pray that Biden will make a significant enough showing that he will feel staying in the race is worthwhile because I do believe that he does have a chance at the nomination even if Iowa doesn't entirely go for him. Iowa may be a bit odd this time as Edwards has been campaining in Iowa for almost 3 years now - he's the one who should drop out if he doesn't win Iowa. I guess maybe I just want Biden for President so very much that I don't want him to give up - this country really needs him to lead us.

On a side note, I think Iowa is actually a pretty liberal state. Granted, they went for Bush in the last election, but they frequently go blue in Presidential elections. They even went blue in '88 - they went for Dukakis instead of Bush Sr. Look it up if you don't believe me. Why do I know so much about this? I grew up in Iowa, that's why. Iowans are traditionally very much into some of the things that are considered "liberal" in that they want social programs - they think taking care of the poor is the right thing to do. I think that the fertilizer comment is apt nationwide, not just in Iowa - there are people like that everywhere, but there are Dems who think the same way about Republicans. The little children should just learn to play nicely together.

What do we expect from our leaders? Especially our President?
1) Intelligence
2) Experience in ALL phases of government
3) Strength
4) Respect from world leaders
5) Diplomacy
6) Command of issues
7) Solutions to problems that face our nation
8) Honesty
9) Integrity
10) Respect and trust from his peers
11) Respect and trust from the people who follow him

There is only one candidate running today who meets ALL of the criteria above. Our next President:
Joseph Biden
I have produced a short video (link below) about Joe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4

Please share the link with everyone you know, and ask them to do the same.
Best,
JDS

Hey Mr. W, Thanks for the snark. When you can't connect with an argument on the merits, why not? If you have a farm near Sioux City, you're in Steve King territory. Seems to suit you. Just saying... Love the fertilizer snuff metaphor for Democrats. It's so 1994.

"We have already handed over sovreignty to Iraq" and that is working so well for them as Blackwater packs its bags and leaves the country...Oh, wait...

The Constitutional frame of government was ratified by the Iraqi people as you point out: (who could forget the purple fingers at the State of the Union speech?). And all the subordinate ministers are thrilled to have the opportunity to serve..at the beach. I mean, the weather in Baghdad is not great, and then there's all that murder 'n stuff.

But despite the obvious failings of the government, that framework is perfectly consistent with what Biden proposes. If Maliki doesn't want it, it may well be because it would change the government, i.e. Him. But maybe the Iraqis should decide that, and maybe it would be an improvement. I do know that what we are doing is not working, so I repeat my earlier question: what's your plan? Biden has one. We need one, desperately. All you can do is take shots at it. What's yours?

Read the plan, please.

The brilliant part of this plan is the idea of covening a conference of the major world powers, Iraq and its neighbors. The solution Biden proposes will come from the international community and Iraq's neighbors, thus taking the pressure of Iraq's leaders who can't afford to be seen in their own country as caving in the Americans.

Go to: planforiraq.com

John E:

Of all the people I interact with here in the Swamp, you are probably the most adamant that we should get out of Iraq. Biden's plan fails to deliver that objective. He wants us to re-arrange the political system of Iraq before we leave. It is optimistic to the point of being delusional to believe we can accomplish that in a short time, if at all. A realist would admit that, whatever happens, its going to take time to fix what’s wrong in Iraq – regardless of who does the fixing.

And you like this idea? I don’t see how you can want us out of Iraq and like Biden’s plan at the same time.

What should we do instead? I have said it a number of times. We need to take the advise of the ISG with a vengeance. We not only need to use diplomacy with Iraq’s neighbors, we must negotiate a cooperative peace and security initiative with them regarding Iraq. They need to be part of the answer because a failed state in Iraq would be a threat to them first. In many respects they have a lot more to offer Iraq than we do. At least, they are Muslims and not “infidels” – which will go a long way toward calming the pent up frustration and anger caused by the American occupation. Furthermore, as I recall, a number of countries including Egypt and Jordan have already offered their services to help in one fashion or another. We might have some willing partners already. Its better than an arms race in that corner of the world – and there have already been grumblings there about a desire for nuclear weapons. This idea, by the way, has already been suggested by Arlen Specter.

John W

Some might think that being worse than poop used for farming is a bad thing. But Im not an oversensitive lube like most of the media, so I can deal with it.

At the same time, I see what you wrote and I think Ann Coulter! You know what I mean? IM TIRED OF BEING CALLED A TRAITOR. I know that you didnt mean it like that and I don't think you hate, it just seemed like you were mad, but I guess you weren't.

I like your ideas on Iraq, and I think most people would agree on a mass amount of Diplomacy. It sucks that all the so-called foriegn policy experts running our relations abroad don't agree with you. Sometimes I just wish we'd all vote for Paul, Gravel or kucinich cause I'm so tired of the everyday nonsense, at least they would do something different. I can't stand our presidential canidates for the most part. But I do like Joe Biden, he seems competent and uncorruptable. i don't know why exactly, but in this day in age, you can never know for sure about anything.

2laneIA:

You didn’t make an argument, in which case there was nothing with which to connect. You merely suggested that Biden’s plan is as good as anything out there because Iraq now has a “weak, corrupt and murderous central government, which has no ability to function” –which is to say no government at all.

The problem with your non-argument, as well as with Biden’s plan is that, as a matter of international law, Iraq is no longer our plaything. They key, again, is the fact that we handed sovereignty back to the Iraqi people who adopted a constitution and elected a government. Even the U.N. recognizes Iraq as an independent sovereign. [And I thought you Democrats actually cared about that.] Basic principles of international law [which Democrats are also supposed to care about] now require us to respect Iraq’s sovereignty, treat it as an equal in the community of nations, and to not interfere with its internal affairs and right of self-determination – regardless of how much of a failure we think it is. Simply put, we have no right to demand a change in the governmental structure in Iraq. In which case, all we can do is ask. If they say no, that’s the end of it.

And that will be the end of it. Sixty percent (60%) if the Iraqi population are Shiites. They do not care to share oil revenues with Sunnis, much less suffer any change in political power or territorial control. Moreover, they hate us. Thus, they have no reason or motive to vote in favor of “an American’s” (Biden’s) plan to take away what power and revenue they have. And don’t think for a second that the plan wouldn’t be spun that way to the Shiites on the street. So, good luck to you and Senator Biden trying to get a plan passed with only forty percent (40%) support at best. It won’t happen.

So, if Biden’s plan is to work, it has to be imposed. If imposing the plan isn’t contemplated in the absence of a consenting population, then we may as well just stop talking about the plan now. It is worthless. Even if it did contemplate forcing the Iraqi’s to accept the plan, that would be yet another violation of international law [which you are not supposed to like]. Not only that, it would also require a longer and costlier commitment from the United States in terms of American lives and treasure.

Therefore, however you cut it, the plan is a bad one and won’t work.

John W,

I've enjoyed reading your commentary.

Anonymous:

I'm glad someone enjoyed it. I didn't. It was one of those round blocks, square holes - or brick wall, beat head events. Not fun.

Josh M:

Please, don't compare me to Anne Coulter! I can't stand her! Aghhhhhhh! [

Sometimes I just wish we'd all vote for Paul, Gravel or kucinich cause I'm so tired of the everyday nonsense, at least they would do something different. I can't stand our presidential canidates for the most part. But I do like Joe Biden, he seems competent and uncorruptable.

Posted by: Josh M | September 22, 2007 1:03 PM

Right on Josh!!!

Hey everyone. Enjoyed the banter. Some good points and maybe some not so good ones. Following is a quote from Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tx) in from an AP article on Friday (9/21). Bottom line, give Joe's idea a chance.

"Texas Republican Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, a longtime backer of President Bush's Iraq policies, on Friday joined with a prominent Democrat to push a war proposal the Bush administration opposes.

She joined with Sen. Joe Biden, a Democratic presidential candidate from Delaware, on a proposal that would give regions of Iraq local control over police, jobs, education and government services. A central government would protect Iraq's borders and distribute oil revenues.

Biden's proposal, an amendment to the defense authorization bill, could get a vote next week.

Hutchison said her backing of the amendment doesn't mean she has changed her position on the war. She echoed the administration view that the buildup of troops has succeeded in reducing violence and given troops time to begin training Iraqis to take more control of the country.

"I don't think you are going to have some political stability if you don't have economic progress. People are going to have to work, have a job," Hutchison said. "Obviously security is a major part of that, but I also think the ethnic strife is going to hurt the capability to create that economic opportunity."

Hutchison said Iraqis already have envisioned a similar plan and included a way to do it in their constitution.

John W

Sorry if my email upset you. Much of your argument regarding decentralizing the government and potential troop lost to put forth this peace plan is based on information you've received that's delivered through a filter of subjective views- unless you've actually been there. And I'm not sure if you've researched Joe's platform on Iraq completely. It includes drawing down all combat troops. Only remaining forces will join a UN Peace keeping force along with major diplomacy with the surrounding countries. Here's an objective fact you need to digest. The federal option to regionalize control is based on the constitution Iraq has already ratified. I get your opinion that this plan won't work. And your other opinion that more troops will be killed is simply wrong; The plan includes major troop withdraw. How can troop loss increase if less are in the country and out of the combat zones? If you have time please go to Joebiden.com and check out his plan thoroughly before panning it. My position is- why not endorse a political solution that is constitutionally acceptable to a sovereign Iraq? By endorsing this plan, we can gather a consortium of countries together to begin negotiations that will result in an acceptable agreement to all parties. The main thing to me is Joe Biden is willing to lead on a controversial issue without worrying what the political implications may be. The other candidates would never do this because they are political figureheads surrounded by unscrupulous people who would sell their soul for personal gain.