by Mark Silva
Facing pointed new questions about tough methods used by the administration in the interrogation of suspected terrorists, President Bush insisted Friday that "this government does not torture people."
At the same time, administration officials are adamantly refusing to discuss certain tactics that reportedly have been allowed—such as head-slapping and water-boarding—in efforts to procure information from suspects detained in secret prisons.
After years of controversy over the conduct of U.S. authorities in the war against terror, including the abuse of inmates at the U.S.-run prison at Abu Ghraib in Iraq, the Bush administration is suddenly facing a renewed onslaught of questions over secretive interrogation tactics, and the furor is now expected to play a major role in the confirmation hearings for Michael Mukasey, nominated to be attorney general.
Congress has forbidden torture, and the Justice Department, declaring torture "abhorrent both to American law and values and to international norms," spelled out in a December 2004 memorandum the tactics that would impermissibly inflict "severe physical or mental pain and suffering."
Yet early in 2005, The New York Times reported this week, the department secretly authorized some of the CIA's harshest techniques for interrogation at secret prisons overseas. Those techniques, the Times reported, included head-slapping and exposure to cold and simulated drownings, including using them in combination.
Congressional leaders now are demanding to see the memorandums that the Justice Department reportedly issued, with leaders calling approval of head-slapping and water-boarding news to them. But the White House insists it privately briefed members of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees on all its authorized tactics.
More broadly, human rights experts are now questioning the administration's insistence that it does not torture.
"President Bush is saying one thing, but there seem to be other things happening around the world," said Carl Tobias, a professor of law at the University of Richmond.
See the rest of the story in today's Tribune:
"The heart of the problem is that Congress has been kept out of the loop so long that it shouldn't be surprising that it is questioning what the administration is doing," Tobias said. "I think Congress has legitimate concern about seeing the information, seeing the opinions and reconciling them with what the White House is saying."
The sensitivity of the issue can be measured in the White House's response. Bush took time to make a statement in the Oval Office on Friday, but he fielded no questions.
"I have put this program in place for a reason, and that is to better protect the American people," the president said. "And when we find somebody who may have information regarding... a potential attack on America, you bet we're going to detain them, and you bet we're going to question them.
"Secondly," Bush said, "this government does not torture people. You know, we stick to U.S. law and our international obligations."
Still, the White House has refused to publicly address any of the specific interrogation tactics reportedly permitted in the Justice Department's 2005 opinions.
"I'm not going to get into specifics," said Dana Perino, the White House press secretary. "I am not saying that reasonable people could not look at something and disagree. But the legal opinion of the United States is that we do not torture."
Initially, the Justice Department described in an August 2002 memo what it considered impermissibly severe pain or suffering.
The agency defined "severe" as "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function or even death." The Justice Department rescinded that opinion after an outcry. A Dec. 30, 2004, memo called torture "abhorrent," and declared that "severe" pain is not limited to "excruciating or agonizing pain."
But then in early 2005, the Times reported, the Justice Department secretly authorized head-slapping, water-boarding and other tactics and said that under some circumstances these would not be considered "cruel, inhuman or degrading"—a category of treatment that Congress banned in December 2005.
Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller (D-W. Va.) has demanded to see those opinions, calling it "unfathomable" that his committee "would be provided more information by the New York Times than by the Department of Justice."
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Comments
The following link is to a story in the Washington Post about some U.S. veteran's WW II Nazi interrogators:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492.html?hpid=topnews
Team Dubya could learn a few things from these .
Posted by: Doug Zook | October 6, 2007 8:34 AM
Doug....I looked at the link. This will never fly with the muttonheads. These men just set themselves up to become "phony soldiers". Whether they were affective in their job or not. You just can't be sly and nice to these people...ya got to slap em around a little. Even if you don't get results, you sure feel a lot better.
Posted by: bill r. | October 6, 2007 9:21 AM
Doug Zook - Great Article. Unfortunately, none of life's lessons from WWII and none of life's lessons from plain old fashioned common sense do not take place with this present administration and it's Robot Zombie Cultist followers.
Posted by: MASTER | October 6, 2007 9:45 AM
ZOOK,
You're unbeleiveable!!!
You find a story about more librals that support your lefty leanings and hold it up a the way things should be.
The story about some high end German prisoners and how they were interrogated 60+ years ago has nothing to do with religous Muslim fanatics that er're fighting today.
Your comparing apples and Buick tires
Posted by: BOB | October 6, 2007 9:53 AM
Your comparing apples and Buick tires
Posted by: BOB | October 6, 2007 9:53 AM
Right...how a human being reacts to torture is different if your a muslim.
Posted by: bill r. | October 6, 2007 10:16 AM
BOB,
Only in the world of 29% Dead Enders in Wonderland are veteran's liberals and chickenhawks like Dubya, Cheney and Limbaugh our tough guy saviors.
Posted by: Doug Zook | October 6, 2007 10:24 AM
I think it's important that we label every harsh interrogation technique as "torture", that we give terrorists advance warning of the types of interrogations they will face if captured, and that the editorial board of the New York Times decide which secret surveillance programs should be publicized. Not only is it right, but it makes me feel all warm to know that I am capable of such unrestrained compassion – even for my enemies. In the meantime, all those Repugs just want to lock me up along with all the other speakers-of-truth-to-power who Herr Bush has already snatched and forced into Gulags. I have to go hide under my bed, I think the Bushies may be coming for me now . . .
Posted by: be scared, very scared | October 6, 2007 11:57 AM
When the Bush-hating Swamp reporters introduce someone as an "expert", you can bet the ranch that the "expert" just happens to be a partisan Democrat.
So it is with Carl Tobias, the law professor quoted prominently in the article and introduced only as a "human rights expert". Tobias' criticisms of the Bush administration should be put into the context that Tobias is a partisan Democrat who is on record as contributing at least $1,000 to Dem Senatorial candidates.
Plus Mr. Tobias wrote a 2006 articles calling for 2 Republican senators to be defeated, calling the senators 'hayseeds". See http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/commentary/20061107_tobias.html
for the article.
It took all of 3 minutes on the web to find this background on Mr. Tobias. Evidently, the Tribune "reporters" either didn't spend these 3 minutes, or found this out but chose to keep that info from their readers.
Once again Mark Silva and the Tribune reporters try and pull a fast one on the readers. But the truth will come out. In this computer age, they should know that they simply can't get away with this kind of biased, shoddy reporting any more.
Posted by: Bruce | October 6, 2007 12:53 PM
It is truly warped to suggest that someone who is expert in his field, in this case law, with a lot of experience in the law of terrorist detention and interrogation, cannot be called upon to comment because he may have contributed money to a political party or spoken his mind on a candidate or two. Particularly in an article in which the administration's point of view on the subject of terrorist detention is fully represented, it's warped to suggest that we shouldn't call on someone to offer their criticism of the situation. I suspect a lot of readers would be upset to read an article which presented only the administration's case for an issue without any counterpoint from someone qualifed to comment, as Mr. Tobias is in this case. This business of attempting to discredit voices with whom one disagrees is getting really old.
Posted by: Mark Silva | October 6, 2007 3:21 PM
Bruce: Do you mean to imply that all democrats are against torture like Carl Tobias and all Republicans, like you are in favor of torture?
With Bushs' attitude toward torture what do you thinks happens in actual practice in the CIA and military prisons?
What do you think happens to the prisoners we send to Egypt and Arabia?
Posted by: c. perry | October 6, 2007 3:33 PM
Last call for alcohol.
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie (Cheney) Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.
I am Emperor George Bush
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president
Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
N%gger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face
You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Donald Rumsfeld is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Chicago Bears on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning.
Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece
You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws
Die on our brand new poison gas
Iraq or Afghanistan
Making money for President Bush
And all the friends of President Bush
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Posted by: Aung San Suu Kyi | October 6, 2007 6:03 PM
We don't torture people. The president declares them non-people first (unlawful enemy combatants), and then we torture them.
Posted by: Tom O | October 6, 2007 6:10 PM
Here's a thought for the supporters of this administration.
Why is it that at every turn, the administration says they don't torture anyone, but when pushed to verify there actions, or when bills are passed limiting their actions they don't comply?
More to the point.
Would ANYONE argue that Timothy McVeigh wasn't a terrorist? So why is it that there was never a thought about torturing Timothy McVeigh to get more information, yet this administration has no qualms about torturing people they can not prove are really "terrorists"? Just because someone is not in uniform and this administration declares them an "enemy combatant" does NOT mean that they are a terrorist.
I know Bruce, these questions are way too difficult for you, so please don't bother to respond.
Posted by: dogjudge | October 6, 2007 6:27 PM
"So why is it that there was never a thought about torturing Timothy McVeigh to get more information, "
Dogj,
As you know, that course of inquiry might have lead to the wrong 'folks'.
Posted by: C.Morris | October 6, 2007 8:38 PM
Mark, I disagree with your criticism of Bruce's criticism. Often IF the Tribune quotes a critic of a Democrat, you folks will ID that person as being from some conservative outlet. Why not do the same with Democratic or liberal critics?
Also, while the administration's POV may be given, the only other quoting comes from the critic. Wouldn't it have been better to have a critic AND a supporter, in fact an independent supporter?
Posted by: John D | October 7, 2007 1:49 AM
Right...how a human being reacts to torture is different if your a muslim.
Posted by: bill r. | October 6, 2007 10:16 AM
Exactly. When did we stop being human and devolve into this "My Country Can Kick Your Country's Ass Mentality"? I guess when we got Cowboy (I'm afraid of a horse) Georgie.
And Mark Silva, Bruce is psychotic. He'll defend Bushie on kicking puppies.
Posted by: Mrs. Jesus | October 7, 2007 6:38 AM
John D,
"Tobias' criticisms of the Bush administration should be put into the context that Tobias is a partisan Democrat"
That is a subjective assertion, no evidence is provided. What makes Bruce thinks he is a "partisan Democrat?" Because he called two Republicans "hayseeds," whatever that means?
"who is on record as contributing at least $1,000 to Dem Senatorial candidates."
This is an exceedingly minor contribution, and hardly supports the assertion that he is a "partisan Democrat."
Mr. Silva is right, you guys are completely full of it.
Do you myopic "mediawatchers" EVER address the issue at hand, rather than smearing contributors and throwing up red herrings and smokescreens?
Posted by: Distrust and Verify | October 7, 2007 12:10 PM
Mark, I disagree with your criticism of Bruce's criticism.
Posted by: John D | October 7, 2007 1:49 AM
John D, I disagree with your criticism of Mark's criticism of Bruce's criticism!
Posted by: Jack Sprat | October 7, 2007 2:05 PM
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie (Cheney) Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.
I am Emperor George Bush
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president
Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
N%gger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face
You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Donald Rumsfeld is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Chicago Bears on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning.
Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece
You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws
Die on our brand new poison gas
Iraq or Afghanistan
Making money for President Bush
And all the friends of President Bush
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Posted by: Aung San Suu Kyi | October 7, 2007 2:27 PM
Last call for alcohol.
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie (Cheney) Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.
I am Emperor George Bush
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president
Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
N%gger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face
You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Donald Rumsfeld is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Chicago Bears on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning.
Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece
You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws
Die on our brand new poison gas
Iraq or Afghanistan
Making money for President Bush
And all the friends of President Bush
Crawford Texas Uber alles
Uber alles Crawford Texas
Posted by: Aung San Suu Kyi | October 7, 2007 3:50 PM
Also, while the administration's POV may be given, the only other quoting comes from the critic. Wouldn't it have been better to have a critic AND a supporter, in fact an independent supporter?
Posted by: John D | October 7, 2007 1:49 AM
You actually support the Bushie regime on torture? How Red IS your Neck? Go read your toilet paper, otherwise known as the Constitution of the United States. You ding dongs are collapsing on a daily basis and we're ALL LAUGHING at you. Yeah right, President Mitt, Prez Fred,... Good God you don't even have a legitimate candidate! The Lie Is Over! You morons should be more concerned about the Senate seats you're going to lose next year.
Posted by: Mrs. Jesus | October 7, 2007 4:04 PM
"Often IF the Tribune quotes a critic of a Democrat, you folks will ID that person as being from some conservative outlet. "
John D,
Isn't that a good thing? Liberals are bad and Conservatives are good, according to conventional wisdom, so identifying an entity as conservative should be a plus.
No?
Posted by: C.Morris | October 7, 2007 6:37 PM
The mere fact he has to say 'we don't torture people' is an indication that we are torturing people.
Look; Kicking the crap out of someone is torturing them.
Posted by: C.Morris | October 7, 2007 8:31 PM
Also, while the administration's POV may be given, the only other quoting comes from the critic. Wouldn't it have been better to have a critic AND a supporter, in fact an independent supporter?
Posted by: John D | October 7, 2007 1:49 AM
You actually support the Bushie regime on torture? How Red IS your Neck? Go read your toilet paper, otherwise known as the Constitution of the United States. You ding dongs are collapsing on a daily basis and we're ALL LAUGHING at you. Yeah right, President Mitt, Prez Fred,... Good God you don't even have a legitimate candidate! The Lie Is Over! You morons should be more concerned about the Senate seats you're going to lose next year.
Posted by: Mrs. Jesus | October 7, 2007 4:04 PM
Mrs Jesus, please forgive John D. He is either the victim of GOP brainwashing, or incredibly retarded!!!
Not sure which it is.
Some of us get off easy and just have our phones tapped. Others I'm told are sent off to GOP indoctrination camps for re-education.
Posted by: Logic Prisoner | October 8, 2007 12:03 AM
No Logic Man, here is the deal: I have a clear-thinking brain. You, on the other hand, are the ultimate in stupidity, like your friends Mrs. Satan, John E., BC and others. None of you have any capabilities whatsoever, basically no different than the all the homeless folks I've seen wandering the streets and eating out of the garbage cans in San Francisco. Quite sad, actually.
Posted by: John D | October 8, 2007 11:20 AM
John D, you are so funny!
Posted by: C.Morris | October 8, 2007 1:01 PM
John D-
Should we also find folks who support Slavery and Genocide?
Torture is in every single case wrong. No exceptions. Torture is a violation of the humanity of both the torturer and the tortured.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2007 1:41 PM
Mark,
Tobias put his money where his mouth is. What more do you need?
How is that "warped" to ask that he be disclosed as a partisan?
Bruce never asked you not to use him as a source, only to disclose what took Bruce a few minutes to find.
Isn't the left that always accuses Global Warming deniers as being in the pocket of "big oil"
Spare us the "attack the messenger" argument.
Posted by: JD | October 8, 2007 1:59 PM
Bruce and John D., I'd POSSIBLY be on board with your accusations of partisan reporting if you complained once in a while about Republican POV being skewed and wondering why no liberals were consulted rather than just spouting RNC-speak like it was gospel. Your arguments just don't vary -- Democrats are ALWAYS wrong about everything, Republicans are NEVER wrong about anything.
Posted by: Op109 | October 8, 2007 2:48 PM