Huckabee: A nation that meets 'God's standards'

"A graduate of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas"

Here's an insight into the America that these people want to create-

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071020/FEAT04/710200343

"This fall, the internationally known seminary – a century-old training ground for Southern Baptists – began reinforcing those traditional gender roles with college classes in homemaking. The academic program, open only to women, includes lectures on laundering stubborn stains and a lab in baking chocolate-chip cookies.

Philosophical courses such as “Biblical Model for the Home and Family” teach that God expects wives to submit graciously to their husbands’ leadership. A model house, to be completed by next fall, will allow women to get credit toward bachelor’s degrees by learning how to set tables, sew buttons and sustain lively dinnertime conversation."

Values Voters? Please. This coming from the same idiots who gave us Bush/Cheney. We ALL vote our values and you don't have to be some brainwashed Republican bible thumper to do so. There's a good reason why religion has no place in government.

huckabee might be the best spoken of the GOP candidates but can't seem to get traction.

in any regard, he's just one more example in the GOP brand of hate that wants to enshrine backwards definitions on those people whos pursuit of happiness is different then their own.

This "Values Voter" is voting for Ron Paul, even though the media keeps trying to pretend he's not there!

An incredible speech. For another candidate, it would seem inauthentic and pandering, but not from Huckabee. He's lived it.

America is electing a President. Not the Pope! Keep religion out of Politics.

We don't want to go on a crusade. . .we've already know what it looks like in History.

All this coming from a knuckle-dragger who doesn't believe in evolution. Then again judging from his views maybe he's the guy evolution forgot!!!

I love the fact that right wing nuts take this guy seriously. Garry Kasparov for President!!! Now there's a guy who makes sense. I'm not joking. I heard an interview with this guy and he makes more sense than anyone running for President in the U.S.A.

The National Review Online says that Huckabee wins the battle of speeches hands down. This was a masterful performance.

The Founding Fathers could have formed a Christian Church of America in the mold of the Brit's Church of England with its Anglicans.

They didn't do it. Instead they wrote into the 1st Amendment to the Constitution the "establishment clause."

So Mike Huckabee and like minded, feel free to exercise your Constitutional rights to worship God as you see fit. Except to the extent you think you think you have the right to shove your religion down my throat.

I can see the headlines for tomorrow....Obama doesn't wear his cross on his lapel.

::begin quote::
So Mike Huckabee and like minded, feel free to exercise your Constitutional rights to worship God as you see fit. Except to the extent you think you think you have the right to shove your religion down my throat.
::end quote::

In other words, "It's ok for you to believe something, but just don't express it".

Expressing religion is not "shoving it down your throat". If it is, then expressing "non-religion" is shoving anti-theism down MY throat.

Be reasonable...

I think it's time to remove the tax shelter for the religious. The church seems fit to be in politics and they no longer should have the tax exemption.
Repeal their exemption!

"Expressing religion is not "shoving it down your throat"."

Saying that Christianity is the only true religion is indeed "shoving it down [one's] throat."

Can you please explain how refusing to establish a state-sponsored religion, barred EXPLICITLY in the FIRST Amendment, is shoving anti-theism down your throat.

This might be above your pay grade a bit, but there are many Americans who don't want a Christian theocracy/ Taliban who actually ARE religions. Not that it matters.

That's the beauty of America. You can worship your faith any way you wish, just don't impose it on me.

My view is that the only words anyone needs to know to lead a life that makes the world a better place is "Do unto others as you would have done to you." Its also called Karma. The Golden Rule.

Everything else is gravy. But you don't have to accept that. G-d bless America.

DannyPoo,

I'll make a deal with you. Don't try to put the cross, Bible and Ten Commandments in schools and other tax payer funded places and I won't object to the placement of Gideon's Korans in motel rooms.

* * * * *

Repeal their exemption!

Posted by: bill r. | October 20, 2007 1:50 PM

Most churches I've seen or been to aren't turning any profits. So, repealing the tax exempt status of most churches won't do anything to most of those you don't like - the "fundies" in particular - except to expose the bigoted attitude of some people against them.

Doug,

I can assure you that most of these "Values Voters" understand that Jesus doesn't come out of a gun and that, whatever has come out of a gun in the past, wasn't Jesus. If you asked them, they would also tell you that no true or good conversion ever occurred by force or coercion, much less by declaring any entire country to be "Christian."

That being the case, they aren't interested in shoving their religion down your throat. They would like for you to hear what they have to say - as would anyone who wants to impart some important message; but they have no heart to make you a captive audience. So, if you don't like what you hear from them, feel free to change the channel on the TV or radio, or walk away. But you don’t have to diss them for doing something they see as trying to help you.

I think that Mike Huckabee is someone who believes sincerely in what he is saying. The things he is saying are the type of things that has made America great in the past but are also relevant for today. Some people are upset when candidates mention God but they need to take it up with the framers of our republic. Maybe some would like to try to come up with a completley secular constitution and bill of rights but I pray it will never happen here. Our system of government still trumps anything else in the history of mankind. Mike Huckabee will be elected President of the United States of America because he is a man of the people and for the people. He is not some slick politition with backing from scores of lobbiests,political dynasties or wealthy eletes. This is a person who understands the hurts and problems of all types of people and doesn't spend time judging them as much as reaching out to them and trying to help them be their best whomever they are. This is a leader not some demigog.Mike doesn't expect that everyone in America will share his values 100% but he will be the type of leader who will be there to help them progress in ways they never thought possible whether they agree with him or not.

Huckaboo proclaims to know God. He has talked to him. God told Huckaboo (the prophet) that the republicans have claimed God for themselves.
Holy sh*t...this is what we want from our candidates? Whackos all!

Most churches I've seen or been to aren't turning any profits.
Posted by: John W. | October 20, 2007 3:13 PM

John...You know thats just not true. Frankly, many religions today do not have a spiritual mission. Their interests are not those of the early church and the Lord’s church today, but big business. Unlike the early church Jesus established, they are into real estate, the social gospel, and making money. Their ministers are more corporate managers than preachers. Many of the tax breaks for religion are being shamefully abused and exploited. In some cases, businesses and companies cannot compete with some churches, which are also businesses, because of the tax breaks for these so-called churches. Just about every financial pursuit is presently seen characterizing the denominational world. Beloved, it is an undeniable fact that much of organized religion today is secular in nature and activity.

I just love when they righteously claim life begins at conception, but then load up their rifles and kiss their NRA cards. If they truly want to sanctify life, then ban guns, war and capital punishment. Otherwise they're just a bunch of hypocrites that want to control everyone's life. "Value" voters? More like 'organized superstition' voters.

As governor Mike Huckabee commuted 11 sentences.

He commuted sentences for violent offenders.

In 2004 Huckabee commuted the sentence of covicted murderer,Denver Witham

Huckabee advocated the release of a convicted rapist who was then paroled and later found guilty of murdering a Missouri woman.

As a law enforcement officer, I find his record vile.

* * * * *

Posted by: bill r. | October 20, 2007 4:53 PM

What I said was absolutely true. I said I was speaking about the churches to which "I" went or visited. I am no fan of mega-churches or large for-profit operations run in the name of Christianity, and so I don’t attend them. Jesus, himself, said that no one can "serve" God and money.

No one who surrounds himself/herself with the trappings of excessive wealth has anything to say about God that I am interested in hearing. I mean, God forgive me if I am wrong in saying so, but the likes of Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn and Reverend Ike have little or nothing to do with the Christian message. 100,000 books, tapes, or videos – or whatever it is that they sell - about how to make one’s life better, or more spiritual, or whatever simply do not address how to reach out to a lost and crazy world.

Fortunately, newer generations coming up are abandoning a lot of the old-think about Churches and Christianity. Most of them are opting for small groups in what has become "The Emerging Church." This is a movement attempting to re-capture the spirit and practice of 1st Century Christianity, unhindered by any social customs that do not further its message.

I think, if you look very hard, you will find more and more people abandoning the larger, organized denominations for the smaller non-denominational churches or church groups - such as are found within the "Emerging Church" movement. Those that turn a profit are dwindling, and the smaller ones are definitely not turning a profit. Soon, it won’t make any difference if that tax exemption goes away. For those who prostitute a pretense of religion and godliness to make a profit, the exemption should go away anyway.

Doug, you may want to do some reading about the Founding Fathers and framers of this country. They did not want a government-established religion, but they clearly defined this country under Christian-Judeo beliefs. The Declaration of Independence and their writing clearly show that.
But it is always refreshing to see the anti-Christian hate coming from those on the Left and the media's enabling of that hate.

Bill R., most churches break even or run deficits. I know I am on the Council for one church and get reports about our sister congregations. We have a bare bones budget and barely keep up with the bills. And, fortunately, enough members do various odd jobs around the church grounds to keep those costs to a minimum too.

As usual, Bill R., you speak of something you know nothing about.

I am no fan of mega-churches or large for-profit operations run in the name of Christianity,
Posted by: John W. | October 20, 2007 5:47 PM

You may be no fan John W, but where do you think the majority of these people at the straw poll came from? Did any of your church attend? The rightious right "is" big business. As far as the younger generation, I would worry more how they view the present state of chritianity. 9 out of 10 young christians say they are ashamed to say they are christian. They see the hypocricy and hate toward gays from the so called "christians", and feel it does not represent a Christ-like attitude. I'm sure your little church is filled with well meaning people but there are factions trying to distort and steal your religion.

There is no room in The White House for a Christian crusade.

Huckabee = total clerical fascist

Why doesn't he just do a 'snake dance' and start raving in 'tongues'?

"But it is always refreshing to see the anti-Christian hate coming from those on the Left and the media's enabling of that hate."

Posted by: John D | October 20, 2007 5:59 PM

Speaking of haters, have you ever read your own ramblings. HATER!!!

Huckabee is a knuckle dragger who thinks the earth is only a couple of thousand years old. Give me a break with all this values trash. The GOP is the party of torture. John McCain is the only one of the republican hopefuls who had the stones to speak against torture. What did he get for his trouble, a Cheney end around that basically gave the McCain torture bill the FU. The GOP has lost all credibility.

*****
Posted by: DD | October 20, 2007 5:27 PM

DD:

You unfortunately appear incapable of drawing rational distinctions between aggression and self-defense, the guilty and the innocent, or even measures to preserve good versus to perpetrate evil. Employing your logic, or lack thereof, we shouldn't have police, or an army, anyone to defend anyone from the evil others commit, or even any measure to punish those who commit heinous crimes.

It takes no sense of self-righteousness for someone to wish that good prevails over evil, that evildoers gets punished, the very evil get punished severely, or that a man ought to be able to defend himself, his family and anyone else from robbers, rapists and murderers (and especially from those who disagree with you and lack the civility to disarm).

So, I respectfully suggest that you stop typing, box up your computer and give it away to someone else. You make no rational contribution with sentiments like those in your last post. In fact, I fear that, if minds like yours prevailed, we should soon have no civilized government, much less a civilization left.

I haven't heard Hillary confessing atheism???

This is all good...Huck is gaining traction with by all the bad mouthed secular humanist. I hope you all keep it up...real loud, too!

Go Huck!!!!!!!!!!

* * * * *

Posted by: Distrust and Verify | October 20, 2007 3:03 PM

You said, “Saying that Christianity is the only true religion is indeed "shoving it down [one's] throat."

No, its not. It is a point of faith, not the point of a bayonet.

Muslims claim that those of us who fail to embrace Allah and the teachings of their prophet are bound for the fiery nether-regions too. I am neither worried nor offended by this claim, nor do I feel that Muslims are shoving their religion down my throat for saying so. I simply disagree with it and shrug it off. This is the normal response to an idea with which one disagrees. Why do you insist on being so different or extra sensitive?

Your comments comparing religious groups in America to the Taliban, or claiming they are pushing for a theocracy, would be hysterically funny were it not for the fact that you actually believe them to be true. Show me one Christian fundamentalist group in this country which: (1) beats women for failing to cover from head to toe; (2) forbids the education of women; (3) forbids listening to music or watching movies or television; (4) condones the killing of women for the “honor” of a family based on the mere suspicion of adultery or fornication; and (5) inflicts the death penalty on anyone who changes religion, marries outside their religion, or tries to convert one of their adherents to another religion.

Give up now. You will fail if you try to find one because none exist. That being the case, there is simply no comparison between any Christian fundamentalist group and the Taliban – which actually did all of (1) to (5), above. The folks at DailyKos were over the top when they suggested this comparison the first time, and it didn’t get any better, less hysterical, or more reasonable when you repeated it.

Long ago, religious groups in this country exerted a stronger influence over our governments, and they had a much stronger grip on society. They didn’t turn this country into a theocracy back then. Indeed, they were more than happy to simply go about their business, knowing that government was going to stay out of their way. Why do you think they would change all that now?

After all, they have more to lose in such an entanglement than anyone else.

I must add one thing further: Tolerance in an open society includes tolerating ideas with which one does not agree. The genius of an open society is that one can always counter perceived bad ideas with one’s own ideas. I suggest that you counter with your own ideas in the future, rather than adopting a persecution complex.

Congradulations Mike Huckabee for winning the important on-site voting:

Mike Huckabee -- 488 votes -- 51.26%
Mitt Romney -- 99 votes -- 10.40%
Fred Thompson -- 77 votes -- 8.09%
Tom Tancredo -- 65 votes -- 6.83%%
Rudy Giuliani -- 60 votes -- 6.30%
Duncan Hunter -- 54 votes -- 5.67%
John McCain -- 30 votes -- 3.15%
Sam Brownback -- 26 votes -- 2.73%
Ron Paul -- 25 votes -- 2.63%
Undecided -- 11 votes -- 1.16%

http://frcaction.org/

I don't know where you go to church, John W, but the Baptist church I grew up in forbade movies, rock music, gambling and dancing. It also seriously downplayed women's education beyond what we needed to know to run a household. It certainly condoned beating women and children for all sorts of transgressions too, including immodest dress. Maybe the Baptists have lightened up since I was a kid, but I doubt it.

How about "An America that meets Americans standards"?

Cheryl,

I didn’t come right out and say it, but I attend a non-denominational Christian Church. That means we have no affiliation with any large church organization, and we accept no rule of government or written creed other than that which is provided in the Bible. That sets us apart from a number of major denominations that appoint a single leader, whereas we govern ourselves through a group of elected elders.

We do not forbid watching movies or listening to rock music or any other kind of music. To the contrary, movies have become an important media for conveying the Christian message. Similarly, a lot of the newer Christian music IS rock or alternate rock music. However, the church does issue warnings to parents and concerned members about the content of certain movies and the lyrics of some popular music.

We, too, believe gambling is wrong – as it invariably involves greed and exploitation, and that some forms of dance are just too unchaste and suggestive to condone. I can assure you, for example, that you won’t find anyone dancing the Lambada at our Church picnic.

We have professional women in our church. We do believe that women have a role in the family and the home, but that such roles are not incompatible with higher education and professional aspirations. Apparently, even Baptists agree with this – indicating change from the condition you described – as women represent a large percentage of the students enrolled at their colleges and universities.

We do not condone the beating of women – and never have condoned it. First and foremost, it is nowhere prescribed in the Bible as a Christian practice. Thus, to the extent it was ever tolerated, it was a misguided custom that derived more from culture than religion. Furthermore, no one can condone the beating of women because it is against the law. As you may remember, the Bible requires believers to obey their secular rulers – which means they have to obey laws against domestic violence. So, if your Baptist congregation once condoned beating women, they cannot do so now.

In any event, Cheryl, the worst case scenario you paint pales in comparison to the practices of the Taliban – which was the comparison others tried to make. No Christian sect attempts to kill any of its members for any reason. Excommunication is the most drastic remedy permitted. From my own experience, I suspect the experience your described is atypical and/or peculiar to a particular region. Most Christian churches, even among us “fundies,” don’t operate like that.

John W,

I appreciate your tortured take on what I was saying. I was not comparing any specific action of the American theocrats (who are being pandered to by the GOP presidential candidates as we speak) to those of the Taliban.

The analogy is that both entities wish to impose their specific view of their religion on the population as a whole. Granted, I definitely prefer the American Evangelicals to the Afghani Taliban, but better still would be a healthy respect by all parties for the Establishment Clause.

I don't care whether or not you or anyone else believes in Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Ginesh or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It gives one no special claim to morality or authority.

Who would Jesus bomb?

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Karma. The Golden Rule.

The fundamental basis of morality.

Cheryl....Don't you feel better now? John W's church believes you have a place in the family and the home, and that if you wished to do more...hey...that would be OK I guess too. Because your church approved of beating women, thats different now at Johns' church, and just because your religion approved of this, doesn't mean religion is bad, it just means you need to go to Johns' church. There wouldn't the slightest bit of hypocricy at Johns' church. Take great faith in the fact that the practice of beating woman at your church isn't as bad as being with the Taliban....it's much better at Johns' church. John also says there are laws now that won't let the church going husbands to beat you anymore...so all is good. Trust the lord Cheryl....it's the people I don't trust.

"Values" voters took us to GWB/Cheney, and into Iraq. "Values" voters will vote themselves and others right out of a Bill of Rights. Why doesn't Bush and his followers just go join The Little Sisters of the Poor to take their inspiration out on--not us, or the Iraqi civilians.

Who is Ron Paul?

"How about "An America that meets Americans standards"?

Posted by: bill r. | October 21, 2007 4:37 PM"

Gramps,

Unfortunately, the 'movement' Christians are on record as saying they are 'Christians' first, and Americans second.

Makes ya wonder who has your back, huh?

Good to see you posting. Sanity is a sea of ☁.

* * * * *
Posted by: bill r. | October 21, 2007 8:39 PM

bill r:

Please go to your optometrist and have your prescription fixed. The grind on your lenses makes you see prejudice and hypocrisy everywhere it isn't.

I wasn’t trying to suggest that everything is okay because my church was better. I was attempting, instead, to suggest that her experience was atypical. I did say that Cheryl’s church was wrong for exalting cultural customs above the Bible - such as condoning the beating of women - and that it should never have been that way.

If you see hypocrisy in what I say, then make more than an allegation. Point out where the hypocrisy is. But, of course, that might be a little difficult. This is because I have engaged in no hypocrisy and you suggestion that I have is a lie. You just throw words around for effect without any care for the truth.

BTW, the reference to the Taliban which Cheryl had commented on was in response to “Distrust and Verify’s” claim that fundamentalists are like the Taliban and seek to impose a theocracy. I was not attempting to sooth anyone’s feelings by favorable comparison between Christianity and the Taliban’s version of Islam. So, again, you managed to twist my words in a false manner to make them sound like something completely other.

I will not return your venom, bill. To your own self be true.

* * * * *
“The analogy is that both entities wish to impose their specific view of their religion on the population as a whole.”

* * * * *

Posted by: Distrust and Verify | October 21, 2007 8:34 PM

And I pointed out how the analogy failed. Making a claim about a religious doctrine doesn’t force you to accept it.

Nor, for that matter, is it imposing one’s religion for a specific religious group to vote their conscience on social issues. You still have the right to disagree with them, and vote in a contrary manner. No one can make you to say they are right against your will.

If you are not interested in listening to their message, they aren’t interested in forcing you to listen to it. They realize better than most that religious beliefs cannot be forced onto someone. They only expect you to respect the fact that they have the same right you do to order their environment at the ballot box.

So, please, stop saying they are “imposing” anything on you. They are not. Yours is the tortured take here.

There is no room in The White House for a Christian crusade.

Posted by: RomanB | October 20, 2007 9:48 PM

Yeah, I bet its too small to even get the Crusaders' horses inside for the re-enactment. Forget about getting all the foot soldiers and Arabs in there too!

To All:

The great/scary thing is:

In less than 100 years we're all going to find out what the truth really was! Death is on it's way to ALL of us. Are you ready for what is coming? Whatever that is, are you ready? That's the real question.

John W,

Your argument boils down to your view that your moderate church is the rule and the extremist mega-churches are the exceptions.

I can't argue with your own experience, but mine (and apparently many others) suggest that yours is the notable (and relatively noble) exception. We can agree to disagree, but you're wondering into the same kind of anecdotal broad-brush that resident loony John D uses.

Basically, its: my church doesn't do that, therefore almost no churches do that. And since my church doesn't do that, I owe no obligation to introspection in terms of the ways that others use Jesus' message in a way that bears little resemblance to the man spoken of in the New Testament.

At the end of paragraph 2 the word should be "wandering" not wondering.

"In less than 100 years we're all going to find out what the truth really was! "

I guess we will invent time travel?
Back to the future?

As a nation, we're (thankfully) under no obligation whatsoever to meet god's standards. And if he doesn't start living up to OUR standards pretty soon, as evidenced by the behavior of his followers, as far as I'm concerned he can rot in hell where he belongs.

Here's the deal:

You better feel very secure in whatever you believe. Because in less than 100 years we're all going to find out what and who was right. You know what they say about death and taxes....It's coming to us all. No second chances! When it's over....it's over. Or is it? See my point! Everybody has faith in something. No belief in anything is to say you have FAITH that we go back to nothing as before. Get it? Yeah, this life on earth is important (Family, patriotism, voting, etc.) but then what? You better be secure about what will happen when they put you in the ground. Because when they do, you will know the truth then! Hope you're right.

"Because in less than 100 years we're all going to find out what and who was right."

Not sure I can wait that long. Got anything I can work with in my lifetime?

Distrust and Verify:

I appreciate your concern and I see what you are saying. Let met put it to you this way:

I am aware that theocrats have been around for as long as I have ever cared about God and Christianity. I’m sure they have been around longer than that, too. And I have lived in and among many Christians in various churches over the years. Yet, the majority of them do not take the theocrats seriously. The idea of theocracy is simply not discussed because most believe it is a bad idea (for the reasons that follow).

There are a number of denominations who are strongly, almost violently, opposed to any church-state entanglement because they are positive that once the government gets involved in religion, they won't have their church any more. The ruination of religion was one of Madison’s reasons for including the “Establishment Clause” in the Second Amendment. It wasn’t merely put there just to protect secularists from religion. Baptists in particular, who represent a large percentage of fundamentalists in this country, fully agree with Madison on this point. After all, they were persecuted more than anyone else by the established religions in Europe – and that continued even after the reformation. [That’s why many of them moved to America.]

Furthermore, it is a tenet of the Christian faith that believers are supposed to be "in the world, but not part of it." Some, like the Amish and Mennonites, take that directive so seriously that they have withdrawn from all but their own society. They have no interest in taking part in government other than to insure that government doesn't interfere with their devotion to God. Even those who do not go to the latter extremes are still interested in making sure their churches are not co-opted by governments.

So, frankly, I am not merely talking from a local anecdotal perspective. I am a student of history, and I keep my ear to the ground regarding these issues. This is what makes me believe the fear of “theocrats” is quite unfounded.

Distrust and Verify / All:

When you lay your head on the pillow at night and are all alone with your thoughts, what do you believe is beyond the grave? You can't live in peace and have meaning / purpose till you have that one question answered. If you don't have faith that drives you, it doesn't matter what you do for a living, what you accomplish, or who you vote for. If you have no reason / purpose for exsistance, what is there?

An incredible speech. For another candidate, it would seem inauthentic and pandering, but not from Huckabee. He's lived it. This is absolutely correct!