'Black Friday:' Three dead so far

The reporter "lays the blame" for the trampling on "the government", or "the media, " or "the culture."

How about blaming the people who did the trampling???????

I think black friday should be ended. If the stores all get together and end the special sales and open at regular hours this will go away. For the safety of the shoppers and the employees. How many people will die on black friday before a nation says enough? Shop Online!!! It's safe, convenient, and if you want, you can get up really early and shop.

Blame Canada!

Yes, for the record here: I am agreeing with Bruce! What a bunch of idiots. That said though, you are going to see a huge spike in these kinds of activities, as well as the gun shooting, in the coming years. People with no/ little money will do desperate things, and you will start seeing a lot of this yet to come. So, in a roundabout way, those deaths lay at the hands of the Republicans!!! Come on Mark, you missed that one!!!

Yay, Bruce!

I totally agree. Where is the blame for the mob of people who trampled this poor guy?

Where is the blame for those who held the guns in their hands at Toys R Us.

You want to know what's wrong? Start by looking in the mirror.

For those concerned about Black Friday and stopping all the insanity. Well, what are YOU doing about it?

"...lay some blame on a gun-happy culture which encourages the resolution of simple domestic disputes with the pulling of a trigger."

Yeah, a stray roofing nail from my neighbor's recent repair job flattened one of my truck's tires the other day. It was all I could do to keep from going over there and shooting him, what with all of the cultural encouragement to do so. The pressure was intense...or not.

All shooting incidents are terrible, Mr. Silva, but get a grip and stop being hysterical. Exactly nowhere, with the exception of some rap perhaps, does our culture encourage people to settle disputes with a gun. Somebody needs to get you some warm milk and tuck you into bed, because clearly you have come down with a case of the vapors.

An 8 months pregnant woman was also knocked down at a Wal Mart (she and her baby are OK).

It has not been determined if the Toys R Us (Guns R Us?) shooting was a dispute over a toy or gang related.

Only in America....

Hechuva Job, Shrub and Cheney, you've left our once great country a complete MESS.

Nearly every facet of the main causes of the public's repudiation of Bush had to do with his adherence to the principles of movement conservatism, both in its governance:

*Foreign-policy debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan.
*A government that invades nations under false pretenses.
*A nation less secure and at greater risk of terrorist attacks than ever.
*A sinking economy.
*An expanding gap between rich and poor.
*Utter inaction on global warming.
*$5-a-gallon gasoline.
*An unresolved immigration problem.
*An incapacity to deal with natural disasters like *Hurricane Katrina.
*A debacle in public-school education testing and funding.
*Declining food and consumer-product safety standards.
*A government that spies on its own citizens.
*A government that tortures prisoners held in their detention facilities.
---------------------

And in its politics:

*The absurd impeachment of Bill Clinton in spite of the public's broad disapproval.
*The caricaturization of a future Nobel Peace Prize winner, Al Gore, in the course of foisting a Bush presidency upon an unsuspecting public.
*The relentless campaign to portray anyone dissenting from Bush's post-9/11 war plans as insufficiently patriotic and "soft on terrorism."
*The tireless recourse to a string of "Friedman units" in excusing the interminable extension of the Iraq war.
*The swift-boating of John Kerry.
*The Terri Schiavo fiasco.
*The Graham Frost fiasco.
*The ritual and ongoing demonization of Latinos as criminals, welfare bums, America-hating, job-stealing foreigners.
*The crude dog-whistle campaign run against Obama, depicting him as a terrorist-loving, America-hating, secret Muslim brown man.
*The deeply disturbing way that conservatives acted on this rhetoric: spewing hate, racism, and threatening violence.
------------------

In nearly every single one of these instances, movement conservatives pronounced their avid support of Bush because they reflected "conservative values" -- and indeed, in a number of them (such as the opposition to gay rights, or inaction on global warming, or the Schiavo matter) they were directly at the behest of movement conservatives, particularly the religious right. You know, Tony Perkins' people.

Mind you, not only does it not do any good to point this out to ideologues like Perkins (and nearly every other Republican in sight), at some point it only makes sense to let them wander off into the political wilderness for a few years. They have it coming.

I tried one of these Black Friday events for the first time this year and I hardly blame the Government for what a business does to sponsor it's goods. I don't blame any of the usual people Silva likes to blame. I blame the businesses for not supervising the people in lines for these sells. Things heat up when some had waited hours in the cold in many states for a chance to get in on a deal that some want to wait in their warm cars for and then spring out at the last minute and cut in lines. It's bad behavior but security could organize much better events. They need to have waves of people go in some at a time until everyone has a chance to go in and open up earlier. This would solve 90% of the problems.

Well, I see the capitalist war on Xmas continues.

Get a clue America. You have become 'Ugly Americans' even in America.

The reporter's bias is mind-boggling. Primary responsibility lies with those who committed the crimes. Secondary responsibility lies with any abettors. Tertiary responsibility lies with a reporter who gives the criminals a silly rationale for blaming someone else for their actions.

As the great American philosopher Pogo has said,

We have met the enemy and he is us.

lay blame on the government?

The only thing sadder than that is that Walmart is going to get sued for not adequately safeguarding their employees against murderous morons by having armed guards protecting the doors of commerce.

I'm sad today.

the walmart situation is entirely walmart's fault. they should have anticipated the crowd and had better control in place. it probably cost them money, so they didn't do it. now, the millions they will be paying out to the worker's family, and the pregnant woman who was also trampled, will wipe out that store's profits for the year and probably lead walmart to close the store.

Well, I hate to put your politics in front of your face but its been shoved in my face for the last 8 years.

First of all, isn't this the "free market" at work? I thought Republicans loved the "free market". It's supposed to solve all our problems!

Second, shouldn't those who did the stomping take responsibility for their own actions? Why lay the blame on the media, the govt, etc? Isnt that what whiny democrats do?

Third, cant we think of the deaths as "collateral damage"? After all, Republicans have been saying that all the deaths of the people killed in Iraq was "collateral damage". So Im suprised that Republicans aren't saying that because what is three lives in an effort to boost the economy?

Shame on all of those that passed over, stomped on, or kicked as they passed over that young mans body as he lay helpless on that Walmart floor!!!!! I say shame on all of you and may the Lord find forgiveness for such greed in your hearts.... How could you do such such an unforgiving thing....how could you!!!!!! You all should feel so ashamed of yourselves. i for one think you should lay down and let others stomp on you many times...just reward...maybe

I never shop after Thanksgiving for these very reasons. I hate crowds; I won't even go to Disneyland during busy days. Online shopping or not waiting until the last minute definitely pay off!

I agree with Mike. The ridiculous practice of opening ay 2:00 or 4:00 am with "door buster sale prices" should stop. It brings the animal out in some. I remember the stories about the Cabbage Patch Doll wars in the isles. How about the toy manufacturers put out the new toys earlier in the year to avoid these things? How about parents telling their little darlings Santa may not bring them everything on their lists? A lesson in "you can't have everything" would not hurt the next generation.

Where was WalMart crowd control security?

And what says I love Jesus more than killing someone to get a deal on a flat screen TV?

Tiss the season.

Yeah. There's a reason I don't go to any stores the weekend of Thanksgiving (not that we shop a whole lot period).

This is disgusting.

what has our world come to. These dangerous black friday practices need to be ended now. Last year a girlfriend of mine who was suffering the removal of both breasts and complications from the surgery and going through chemo sat out in the freezing cold weather all night to get her son a lap top. The toll it took on her physically damaged her health even further. Now people are dying. Don't make people have to feel like this is the only way they can afford something for a loved one at Christmas. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Hence, the name of the holiday. We need to put the Christ back in Christmas before anyone else dies celebrating Christ's birthday.

Blame the gun-happy culture? I don't have a gun and don't plan to get one. But to prove that statement the reporter would have to be able to say that States where it is easy to possess and carry a gun have a higher number of shooting incidents that States or localities with strict gun-laws. This is demonstrably not true. Much as this reporter would like us to believe the myth, it is not true that having guns creates a wild west.

They shoot horses, don't they?
America continues it's marathon descent into consumer Hell.

blame the journalists for their low-rent reporting and completely unjustified assertions.

This is a serious symptom of a brutal disease in our society. This disease, the fear of lack and poverty simply doesn't have to exist. It is a complete illusion with very tragic and tangible results. It is amazing what reality we can create from an illusion that so many share. The cure is simple. What if we gave everyday of the year? What if we believed that we had enough to give all year long instead of saving it all up for one day that we end up gorging on because we are afraid that the abundance will instantly end on Decemeber 26th!

I'm glad I don't live in the States!

Getting shot so you can get toys? Trampling heavily pregnant women?

What is wrong with you people??!!

Black Friday has nothing to do with politics. Politics has not changed; it's up and down as always. We are in a recession and should watch our budgets and then told to spend for stores are hurting.
Any one with one ounce of common sense would know not to blow their money but they do anyway. It's greed man and no one is spared. Did you push ahead of the guy at the gas station today. Did you let the old guy in front of you go first. No manners anymore and folk are gimme gimmeeee!
If you want to go political, everyone is waiting for Obama to give them something and it so does appear that America is more centrist as ever. But, you can't stop morons from being morons much. Crowds always court folk and crowds always mean risk. Group psychology 101 tells one this.
I can not understand, however, how any one could push someone down and then walk on that person. Unreal. Maybe everyone in the video shown should be penalized in some way to get the message across that it's not polite to push. And, ohh, yes our presidential campaign was truly rotten. Will rotten end and when. Desperation is such. But, aside from politics, just what is mankind's sense of fairness and civility IQ anyway. You would think that this crowd was fighting for a crumb of bread and everyone was starving. Prison camp folk had better manners most of the time and if you ain't in prison, what the Hell is wrong with people.
I shun crowds and come ons but like a good deal if it does not spell bait and switch. And, my greed quotient is low. We come into this world naked and we are going out the same way. In between, we want shelter, food, clothing, health, happiness, and safety and some kind of success and personal esteem.
Cannot see any esteem in knocking some one down for personal gain while causing injury to another. My lord, this was not an emergency and one had to do something one normally would not. And, even, in an emergency, a cool head should prevail. I am so saddened by these events.
Civil desperation for and by what means and unto what ends. Does media and government and politics thrive on this so that constituents also do and therefore act out??

Get that man's family an attorney and sue that **** out of Wal Mart...that's how you can change Black Friday's. He shouldn't have died in vain.

"Much as this reporter would like us to believe the myth, it is not true that having guns creates a wild west."

Posted by: Mark

And it's wise to be packin' heat at Toys R Us -- you never know if the Tickle Me Elmo's decide to go postal.

I love you flatliner loons, especially Teresa, who blamed this inciden on Busha dn/or capitalism. Bruce, as usual has it right, blame the morons that did the stampeding.
.
There were 1000's of Black Friday events around the country and the people that shopped at them did so safely.
.
If you want to throw politics into this - look at the two states - Blue States new York and California.

To Mark - I would have to disagree with you.

The United States is so much higher than other countries, it's amazing.

In 2004 there were 5 gun deaths in New Zealand, 37 in Sweden, 56 in Australia, 73 in England, 184 in Canada and 11,344 in the United States. It's more than any other industrialised country.
(stats from Brady Campaign)

BTW - half of US gun deaths are suicides (stats from Current .com)

Their guns hardly protected them, did they?

Let's also remember that suicidal people often take out others before themselves.

Those stats are just for murders in the US.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the total number of gun deaths in the US for the year 2004 is 29,569.

A further 64,389 people were injured by guns.

I'm glad I don't live in the US.

Blacks Friday.

nuff said

Anyone who would blame anyone but those who engaged in the mob action is an imbecile.

99.9% of normal, sane people would blame the trampling death on--the tramplers.

But for the Swamp journalist, that wasn't even a considered option, as he blamed "culture", advertising--everything and everyone but the perpetrators.

These journalists--do they live on another planet? They are SO out of touch with how ordinary people think.

To Dave E @ 7:10pm,

Are you kidding? Or blind? Or just willfully oblivious? Do you really believe that, "Exactly nowhere, with the exception of some rap perhaps, does our culture encourage people to settle disputes with a gun."

Puh-leeze, get real! Try the NRA and state legislatures pushing laws to allow guns everywhere so people can "protect" themselves. Try movies and TV that glorify vigilante justice and "heroes" who can only save us by operating outside of a justice system that is always portrayed as incapable of protecting us, or, even worse, portrayed as more of a threat than even whatever villians are out there.

In a country which exists under the Rule of Law, laws and the police are for settling disputes and protection, not arming everybody, but ever since Reagan, the fear-mongering Right-Wing of this country has unabashedly promoted vigilante justice even as they rigorously worked to abolish any controls of gun sales and gun ownership, and always with some vague people of color portrayed as the "threat" that must be fought at all costs by the righteous white men.

The result is a country with more gun deaths and a higher prison population than any other country in the world.

Blaming it on the sub-culture of rap is disingenuous, and racist. Out of all the instances in the last 25 years of large numbers of people being gunned down by killers who use schools, universities, stores and workplaces for their shooting sprees, all but one that I know of - the DC sniper - was committed by white guys. Somehow I doubt if rap had anything to do with any of them.

More telling is the huge surge in gun sales since the election, a buying spree almost entirely made up of white racists who are preparing to take their vigilantyism to new heights at the least provocation. Obama's election has already prompted more credible threats to his life than any other president-elect in history. White supremecist organizations are having a field day feeding the hate frenzy - and they are arming themselves.

As long as we have white guys buying into the notion that they have to be armed to the teeth for Armeggedon or the sudden invasion of brown illegals - whichever comes first, and who believe that their women and kids are their property to dispose of as they see fit, they're going to reach for their guns before they reach for the police or the law.

Wake up! "nowhere does our culture encourage people to settle disputes with a gun" is either a sign of major denial or you live in a cave with no access to any media whatsoever.

Posted by: ralph | November 29, 2008 6:28 PM

Will outdoes himself in showing just how out of touch with reality he is by assigning some of the blame to government. The people who did this are the ones responsible. I realize that in Will's world, individual responsibility is a foreign concept, but in the real world, people who do things are and should be held responsible for them.

This is not the government's fault. It's not Wal-Mart's fault. It's the fault of the people who trampled this guy.

Ralph,

If you want to blame the killings on the gun, can we blame dumb remarks on this blogs, such as yours, on the keyboard?

Those that trampled that poor man to death and caused several others to be injured, should be held accountable. This should not let WalMart of the hook, however. This company has a history failing to take care of its employees whether it is discrimination of women, sexual harrassment, refusing to pay overtime to employees, or its opposition to EFCA. This company seldom does the right thing usless they are forced to do so. I guess all of this is the price you pay for cheap goods. I do believe they will, and should be, held liable for gross negligence. Any idiot should know that they should have had plenty of staff/security on hand for this type of event. But then that would mean dipping into their profits! Obviously they have been fortunate this hasn't happened before. I am sure that one of their bean counters decided that it would be more cost effective to pay off a lawsuit should there ever be one than to pay for adequate staff for all of its stores every year. I do believe they will pay for being greedy.

going2hope4better.

I appreciate your point, but the countries you list are have small populations, less than many states in the US (England the exception). I am not sure the comparison is fair. And, if half the gun deaths are suicides, I think I would actually subtract them out from the numbers to make the argument more accurate. It is sad to consider, but someone determined to commit suicide has options. If guns were banned, there are other alternatives if you really want to take your own life. So, I am not sure the suicides should be counted when looking at gun deaths for this making your point.

What works in small countries may not work in large countries.

If banning guns is the answer, why isn't it working Wash DC or Chicago?

Anyone insane enough to shoot people over a small sale has a lot of problems. Would someone else have died without the gun? I don't know, but he's certainly a loose cannon either way.

And let me reiterate everyone else: blame it on the people who did these wicked deeds, not society, government, the media, etc. These desperate, immoral people represent a very small fraction of the United States. That's why there were three deaths, and not hundreds. There are always crazy people out there. To blame their craziness on anyone but themselves is to passively justify their craziness.

Bruce,

What do you know about what ordinary people think except statistically from the polls you whine about? And you consistently whine even louder about the messengers, not the message. On this post, you whine TWICE.

Mark,

Paris, London, Tokyo, etc are all larger than the cities you mention and yet their gun-related crimes are far lower. Also, you may question the statistical impact of suicides by gun, but you can't ignore the domestic violence. People buy them to protect themselves and instead use them on their own families.

Kenny,

your right, they are bigger cities. but DC and Chicago have strict gun control laws and they are some of the worst in the US. Cities or States the permit citizens to possess a gun have lower murder rates. I think Sweeden was one of the countries mentioned in comparison to the US. It has a pop about 1/35 of the US. If the US has 11,000 gun murders each year, dividing by 35 we get 314 murders in a Sweeden-sized US. Not good, but not as dramatic as first presented.

My point about suicides was to ask if it is fair to include them in the number of gun deaths. I don't know the answer. I don't think it is, but a good argument could convince me otherwise. It would seem the same is true of domestic violence. While a gun may make it easier, as horrible as domestic violence is, if you are determined to commit domestic violence there are unfortunately alternatives to guns. I would be interested, what is the number of gun deaths attributed to domestic violence?

I love you flatliner loons, especially Teresa, who blamed this inciden on Busha dn/or capitalism.
Posted by: Terry | November 29, 2008 1:57 PM

TERRY>re-read my post, I never blamed it on Govt or bush and especially not on capitalism. Where's your head man ha. I think they need to supervise inside and outside the store with security guards or some such organization. READ MAN< READ!

Terry> sometimes you have to just breathe. You get so excited about the small stuff. Re-read my blog above and you'll see you responded incorrectly to what I actually said. Sorry!

going2hope4better,

I took a look at the numbers you gave. Thank you.

At first I was not sure how to interpret. But I don't think I have changed my mind. In 2004 there were about 29,000 gun deaths in the US. About 17,000 were suicide. So there were 12,00 gun deaths in the US that were not suicide. Again, I am not sure if it is a fair argument to include suicide. Those who are determined may unfortunately find another way if a gun is not handy. The same for domestic violence. I am sure there are cases where the gun unfortunately makes it easier. But, I am afraid there are also probably other cases where the outcome would likely be the same.

McGroin,

Tee hee. Save it for your frat or klan meeting -- then disband for lack of relevance in the 21st C.

Teresa,

I re-read your long blog and you are correct, my apolgies. Not sure what your post meant to say in reagrds to Black Friday though.

My thoughts were tyou were just adding this incident to the long list of "failures" you attribute to President Bush and Vice-President Cheney.

Terry>oh contrare monshare (sp). I love Bush, am a true conservative who is ready to accept a fate worse than death but I take Obama with my head up and a heavy heart ha.

Black Friday was the fault of not enough security.....but Walmart is my baby, love to shop there and I will support them to the death.