Bush gives automakers $17.4 bill. rescue

It sounds like a good idea, but then, when did President Bush ever have a good idea !!? Like everything else, in these past two administrations, we will just have to, wait and see !!
In the meantime, the auto workers must suffer the incompetence and greed of the CEOs and their management crews. I hope they are now, at least, driving American cars and have put away their Lear jets !! Probably not, though, they need their perks, it is what they live for, steaks every day, armed guards and God only knows, what else !! ' Made in America " will now be on the endangered label list !!! As long as Wall Street gets theirs, who cares about Main Street ?
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.

Quote from Bush staterment-

He said the companies' workers should agree to wage and work rules that are competitive with foreign automakers by the end of next year

This the auto workers will
never give into, don't think the union will let them-
Its going to be one big mess, as the American Auto Industry still won't be competive and still drop in sales.

17 billion in our tax money to bail out the UAW workers, and the auto companies that agreed to those bloated 2,215-page contracts! This pork measure is a waste of time, a waste of money, and a net destroyer of jobs.

History should write that President Bush abandoned freedom in order to buy votes--and ended up with neither votes nor freedom.

If this is what a "stalwart defender of capitalism" agrees to, why not just elect a French-style Socialist and be done with the pretense? Oh, I forgot--we DID elect a French Socialist a month ago.

Don't worry, bloggers, your bankers, investors and CEOs will get their cuts and meanwhile, the auto workers are strong-armed into more concessions. What a fair-minded President, he isn't !!
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.

All hail King George! Hmmm....the people have spoken, the CONGRESS has spoken and yet King George does what he wants - legal or illegal. When will Congress grow a spine and stand up to the power grab of Bush. This is ridiculous. We shouldn't even have a Congress - what a way to save Billions!!!!

has anyone ever met one of those people that you would like to help out, but you know that if you give them your money they will just spend it all on shoes and they still won't be a ble to pay their electric bill? This is not all that different...

http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/12/12/is-bailling-out-the-big-three-like-bailing-out-your-neighbor/

Sure "Change" pick on the French, who just happen to be in far better shape than us. That free market capitalism failed us, so let's do what we need to do.......... and maybe in his final 2 months, Bush can finally get something right.

“has anyone ever met one of those people that you would like to help out, but you know that if you give them your money they will just spend it all on shoes and they still won't be able to pay their electric bill? This is not all that different...”
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Posted by: bpc621 | December 19, 2008 12:27 PM
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Not to defend Bush (because I think his actions here are indefensible), but I somehow doubt he would be helping out anyone who wants to spend all their money on shoes. As a matter of fact, I think he plans to adopt the eastern practice of having family members and visitors remove their shoes - and leave them by the door - when they enter his house.

And who will decide that the "needed cuts" are enough? Some other bureaucrat? And if they say "you haven't done enough, we want our $17 billion back", does anyone really think that this money will be available to pay the govt back. What a joke. The govt should have forced an orderly bankruptcy, provided debtor in possession and longer term financing, assured buyers that the govt would support the warranties, and doled out incentives to potential car buyers in the form of tax credits.

That free market capitalism failed us, so let's do what we need to do.......... and maybe in his final 2 months, Bush can finally get something right.

Posted by: mort | December 19, 2008 12:29 PM

Failed us? We need to get back to it- We haven't had free market capitalism for some time- our corporate tax rate is one of the highest in the world... there has been very little "free" in our market system...and all of the signs from Obama so far are that this will only get worse.

France is no model we need to aspire to- despite Sarkozy moving away from the decades of socialism in that country- they still have unemployment rates of + 8% ( 20-30% in people under 25 years) and are as being impacted by this credit crisis as bad or possibly worse than us...

Chronic youth unemployment caused by dumb minimum wage requirements ( sound familiar) caused riots in the streets just a few years ago..

Even the free market advocates disagree with you, heartburn. What's happened on Wall Street indicates a failure of the markets to adjust and police themselves.

So "heartbabe" what might the unemployment rate become in Michigan, Ohio, etc. if we let the big 3 go down the tube, and the parts makers, suppliers, etc. Oh, I'm sorry, capitalists don't care (which is why we have unions in the first place).

...and the reverse natural selection continues...insure the survival of the least viable...

already gettlefinger says the uaw will give no more and will redue this contract when obama gets in. lower their high pay and benefits, sit home @ 90% pay etc.pay them like other industries which do not have money grabbing unions to such the money from members and maybe cars could be priced accordingly and would sell.When you look for problems in industry you always find uaw.

Next up United, American, Continental and Delta!

Why does the Trib say the "Big 3" when only GM and Chrysler are getting loans?

Ford didn't ask for, and isn't getting any, assistance.

I am offended that I am a highly intelligent graduate from a distinguished university and an employee of a big name company and don't see the perks OR the pay these factory workers get. I'm baffled by how much these workers are paid. If only big media had a union... really it is ridiculous. Stop complaining about pay and be happy you have a job. I understand you hate your occupation but don't make me pay for it michigan. I live in chicago in which 80 percent of my pay goes towards commuting, rent, and utilities...

Bankruptcy would have been better if they went that route.
the US could have offered a fresh line of credit AFTER they comae out of it, but as usual the UAW got its way.

I will never buy a GM OR CHRYLSER as my lifetime protest.

If all gasoline cars, trucks, and suv’s instead had plug-in electric drivetrains, the amount of electricity needed to replace gasoline is about equal to the estimated wind energy potential of the state of North Dakota. Of all the bailout bucks we have spent nothing would go further to help our country than to bail us out of our dependence on foreign oil. This past year the high cost of gas seriously damaged our economy and society. While we are doing the happy dance at the pumps OPEC is cutting production to raise prices again. I highly recommend Jeff Wilson's new book The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence Now www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com as well as Better Place's web site http://www.betterplace.com/ to anyone who is worried about our economy and interested in seeing us become more energy independent .

I don't like it. I can only vote now by not buying GM

So "heartbabe" what might the unemployment rate become in Michigan, Ohio, etc. if we let the big 3 go down the tube, and the parts makers, suppliers, etc. Oh, I'm sorry, capitalists don't care (which is why we have unions in the first place).

Posted by: Flo | December 19, 2008 4:52 PM

Are you kidding! Michigan is already considered one of hardest states to do business in thanks to years of horrible fiscal and taxing policies--- Michigan is an example of what all states will look like if we allow the nanny staters and union lobbyists masking as dem senators and congress people to continue with their plans..

the salary of the american auto workers is not figured correctly. it includes retirees pensions and medical. this should have already been paid.
the government did not make the companies pay this money.

some of these retirees retired in the 1970's and 1980's they cannot work. they have to live.

the foreign auto makers have no pensions from the 1970's and 1980's to pay.

gm 19 dollars an hour, toyota 14 dollars an hour.

the equonox, gm, won the green award in 2008. they have as good as cars as toyota, honda.

I do think those scapegoating the UAW (tho' labor is only 10% of a car's cost) are the same folks (or as misguided as those) who were running around saying "Drill, baby, Drill" a few months ago.

Heartburn, you didn't answer my question.

heartburn and others-
Remove your flag magnets from your foreigh cars, Take off the the yellow ribbons, too. You guys are all traitors. You'd rather support foreign corporations rather than the USA.. Remember Pearl Harbor!!

A bailout of the Big 3 is SOCIALIST. Why should I, and my fellow Americans, who make far less than $70 per hour, which is the compensation paid by the Big 3, have to pay for the salaries (and compensation) of union members who make far more than we do? If the Big 3 made cars that people wanted the Big 3 would not be in trouble! Why should I have to pay for executive bonuses and private jets when they made wrong decision after wrong decision? Today it is too late to say SORRY – they had decades to do that!!! They have been building autos that are garbage for years and shoving it down the throats of the American consumer. Perhaps the autoworkers should earn what the average American makes, - or is that they think they are better than us by the fact that they wouldn’t want to live the way we do!!!!
I personally know of the manure the Big 3 produces. A few years ago I bought a new ford that broke down before 10,000 miles, two new transmissions had to be put in it, which cost me out of pocket money, as ford did not want to back their warrantee!!! One day I was traveling south on a highway when the brakes failed and I was in a horrible accident, yes failed with less than 10,000 miles and not a year old my car crash thanks to ford! The zone representative from ford told me to STICK it, they didn’t warrantee brakes on the cars/junk they build and that if I sued ford I would get as much money as the people who sued for the pinto years ago. I talked to a lawyer who told me that I would never beat ford in court. Thanks to ford I spent time in the hospital and was never compensated. I am saying enough is enough! I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A BIG 3 VEHICLE. I could have died, it was a bad accident and the Big 3 could not care. As a Montanan I HOPE that ford goes out of business since the product they produced almost killed me.

I oppose bailing out the BIG 3 for the following reasons. Most of their electronics are foreign made.... A good portion of the steel they use is NOT made in the US. The Big 3 is shipping many of the engineering jobs used to design the vehicles to India and China. Almost 100% of all Robotics used by the Big-3 are Foreign made. Most of the software used to design the cars are made by foreign programmers not Americans!!! The stockholders of GM and Ford encompass all other the developed nations of the world. If we bail out GM, Ford, and Chrysler we are sending as much if not more of our monies to subcontractors and jobs throughout the world. It does not stay here. When GM finally says they have a competitive hybrid ready to sell.... it may be assembled in Mexico with parts from who knows where. So far NOT A WORD ABOUT NECESSARY RESTRUCTURING to make them globally competitive, and no word about opening up the union contracts.

Since Ford, GM, and Chrysler could care less about me (and the American consumer) I could care less about them.

it'll be business as usual with these CEO and their unions now that they have the money. I wouldn't buy a GM product if my life depended on it. There is a reason they are in this mess. Those CEOS were laughing and toasting with champagne as they flew home in their private jets.

This was a bad decision. I t looks like it was made because president Bush was worried about his post Presidency image rather than on the basis of facts and principles. All this agreement does is give the auto workers and the management time to keep going until they have a more favorable Congress who will give them more money so they can do the same old thing. Bush's decision on this matter is another example of his cowardly leadership of this country. Above all Bush is is a craven approval seeking politician who caves in when people say they don't like him. The sooner he is gone the better. As for me , I will never buy another Detroit made car again. I will do my CIVIC duty and buy a Honda.

One in ten jobs in America is dependent upon the big three.

Let 'em fail and add an immediate ten percent to our growing unemployment rate.

Why should this bother anyone in a free market society? The unemployed do nothing but drain the resources that their smarter and more educated peers have accumulated.

They just should have studied harder in school.

Well lets see General Motors owns GMAC, the company that loans money on their cars and trucks, and when you, the taxpayer whose bailing out their ass, doesnt make your payment, they come to your house and take your car away from you, so they should get the same consideration. NONE go to hell.

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Posted by: mort | December 19, 2008 4:23 PM
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No: You are wrong, and heartburn is quite correct. We haven’t had a truly free market in this country since well before the New Deal, and that was almost seventy years ago. A “free market” is one in which buyers and sellers engage in voluntary exchanges at prices set by mutual consent - AND without any force, fraud, or coercion from anyone. A free market depends on this arrangement to maintain competition, efficiency in pricing and distribution; and to insure the proper allocation of resources. Thus, when the government intervenes to do more than prevent fraud and coercion, the market becomes less free and more non-functional. In fact, our federal government is heavily involved in regulating economic behavior in a myriad of ways, including subsidies, bailouts, price guarantees, price fixing, and by directly limiting or prohibiting certain economic behavior. As long as the government holds its thumb on the scales in this manner - and dictating who and what will be competitive - as everyone knows it does - it is extremely farcical to call what we have a “free market.”
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All the above makes me question your statement that “[e]ven the free market advocates disagree with” heartburn. Anyone who thinks that “free market capitalism has failed” doesn’t know what they are talking about. One has to have free market capitalism before it can fail - and we haven’t had it in a while. In addition, if anyone thinks we have a free market, or that it is capable of self-policing without being a lot freer, then they are not free market advocates.

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Posted by: Union Maid | December 20, 2008 7:57 PM
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Wow. Are you - or are you not - a Democrat and a Union person? I would have expected the “You-traitor-give-me-that-flag” type of rhetoric from some redneck fresh out of right wing talking points. I didn’t think Democrats or Union people were into appeals to patriotism to shame people into irrational positions.
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And your position IS irrational. Buying a car is supposed to be a positive economic choice, and not an act of charity. It isn’t that people are interested in favoring foreign auto manufacturers over domestic producers. They just want to buy an efficient, well built vehicle at a decent price. The failure of domestic car manufacturers to turn out quality goods is the reason they have been steadily losing market share to foreign competitors. They apparently forgot how to adapt, innovate or compete. It is not un-patriotic to fail to support an American company that has lost its way, and can’t pull its own weight or produce quality goods. The American way is to allow that company to go into bankruptcy and, if need be, liquidation. Sorry.

I do think those scapegoating the UAW (tho' labor is only 10% of a car's cost) are the same folks (or as misguided as those) who were running around saying "Drill, baby, Drill" a few months ago.

Heartburn, you didn't answer my question
Posted by: Flo | December 20, 2008 3:22 PM

Sorry- shoveling snow..

Thought your question was rhetorical.. of course the unemployment rate would go up if a huge employer like an auto manufacturer goes out of business...

The better question is- what is governments role (if any), to keep and maintain a healthy environment for large and small, union represented or not represented business to be successful? Hint: successful businesses hire people. Unsuccessful businesses don't.

Bottom line here is- how will providing this money to GM, Chrysler and UAW change the way they do business and work together. So far all we have seen is the automakers saying they need the money but showing up w/o a plan on how they would use it- and UAW saying they will not consider any change to their contract.

And you are ok with giving folks with these mindsets our money?