'Obama not U.S.-born' meme won't die

Maybe we should question if Robert L. Schulz is a natural born citizen. Isn't the last name of Schulz German? Maybe he is a German citizen and sholdn't be allowed to vote in America?

So Obama had to engage three firms of lawyers (not three lawyers) and spent about US$1m. to make people believe he was born in Hawaii? Whereas he could have spent just $12 and published his Certificate of Birth (long form) to prove it. Where's the logic?

So Obama had to engage three firms of lawyers (not three lawyers) and spent about US$1m. to make people believe he was born in Hawaii? Whereas he could have spent just $12 and published his Certificate of Birth (long form) to prove it. Where's the logic?

did schulz vote? who did he vote for.

Short of producing a video showing baby Obama popping out of his mother's womb with Don Ho singing Tiny Bubbles on Waikiki Beach in the background, I'm not sure what would satisfy the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd. Continuing to give them press coverage, again and again, is a waste of bandwidth and just encourages this kind of nonsense.

It isn't that these folks don't believe Obama was born in Hawaii; they don't WANT it to be true - despite officials from the Dept of Health in Hawaii saying that his birth certificate doesn't get realer than what has already been published on his website and on watchdog websites.

These pathetic people are wasting their money and time.

It's not as simple as the previous commenters (and "journalists") make out. Obama's mama worked for the state department and was known to have traveled quite frequently. And with her connections it's possible that the birth certificate (COLB) could have been created later to make it appear that he was born in Hawaii when he was really born in Kenya. No, the campaign probably had no idea that it had happened - and maybe Obama himself wasn't aware. But there are so many inconsistencies (real and imagined) that it should have been vetted much better much earlier.

The not so bright right at it again.

who cares? Why does it matter? His mom was American. Even if he was born overseas, he's still the son of an American woman who was traveling overseas on state business. How is that a mark against his US citizenship?

I heard this guy (at least I think it was him; it was someone connected to the ad) on the radio earlier in the week. You know, he didn't sound like a crackpot. He was very reasoned, and reasonable. At least one of his points was that this was about the Constitution of the US and upholding the same. Another point was that Obama got some sort of legal action stopped, not by proving the birth certificate was real, or that those questioning it were wrong, but because of legal standing in the case. That would a "technicality" that so many people are fond of using to browbeat circumventing the constitution. (I happen to be a strong champion of Miranda rights and all those other pesky details police officers and prosecutors don't necessarily enjoy following.)

Wouldn't it have been a lot easiler, a long time ago, for Obama to produce the real document and to answer all the questions?

Just asking...

If a US citizen gives birth outside of the United States, that child is still considered a natural born citizen ... end of story.

State issued birth certificates are common, but do not prove live birth in that state. I was born in Maine (1965), but not in a hospital, so the birth certificate is state issued.- just like this one of Obamas.... Did anyone witness the birth - hmmm. So am I really a citizen ?? The government doesn't seem to know, as this is one of the reasons my security clearance has been denied - no control number on birth certificate - upper right corner. Control numbers can be verified as issued by the state and hospital, no control number no proof....

Could this be a better example of why the dead from the neck up republicans took such a whippin? Had they spent less time on partisan politics and more on helping the country we might be in a better place today.

We have always known he is not American born but no one seemed to care. He even took his Senate oath on the MOSELM bible. Think America. Investigage quickly
His father was part of Malcom X...

This is an absolutely insane pseudo-issue. Only a total crackpot would continue to argue that Obama is not a US citizen born in Hawaii. The problem with these conspiracy nut cases is that you can never disprove the fallacies of their arguments because logic has nothing to do with their reasoning or their motives. Please: Ignore these Nuts.

Whenever you read "tin foil hat conspiracy theorists," you are reading words from someone who is an intellectual coward. It's an age-old cliche they use to disguise the fact that they don't want to consider or face the possibility that they have been scammed or defrauded. I understand the sheep mentality, because it's comfortable. But sheep are ultimately led to the slaughter. The logical approach is this: Obama is accused of not being a natural-born US citizen. He can (1) spend little to no money and effort and provide all requested documents (like McCain did, although I was not a McCain supporter) and end the speculation, or (2) spend lots of money and effort avoiding the issue. He has chosen the latter. The only reason he would do this is because he is not a natural-born citizen. As a law enforcement officer, I swore an oath to the Constitution, not to any administration. Therefore, since Obama will be a usurper, I will not recognize or enforce any federal laws made during his "reign," because they will be constitutionally illegitimate (even Congress must pass their legislations over the desk of a legitimate president, so their legislations will be invalid as well).

Chris said: [[If a US citizen gives birth outside of the United States, that child is still considered a natural born citizen ... end of story.
Posted by: Chris | December 3, 2008 9:27 AM]]

I BELIEVE that the Obama case has some special wrinkles that make this not nearly the "end of story." And I believe it has to do with his mother's age. Because she was younger than a certain age, apparently IF Obama were born in Kenya, and not Hawaii, he would not be an American citizen. (THat seems weird to me, because typically it's been "if you're born the child of a US citizen you're a US citizen," but there are some wrinkles here that the people booking the ads want explored.

"We have always known he is not American born but no one seemed to care. He even took his Senate oath on the MOSELM bible. Think America. Investigage quickly
His father was part of Malcom X...

Posted by: Abigal Young | December 3, 2008 9:37 AM "

Oh my dear loonies--please be as prominent in 2012 as you are in 2008. The more you show of yourselves, the more elections we Democrats will win.

Thanks again for all your help.

In any event, it doesn't matter what religious faith Mr. Obama is. Everyone in the US has a right to freedom of religion granted by the First Amendment of the US Constitution which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Investigage quickly
His father was part of Malcom X...

Posted by: Abigal Young | December 3, 2008 9:37 AM

This is the sad effect of partisan politics on America. You end up with the lunatic fringe like Abigal who is willing to continue the lie in an effort to have her agenda forced on the American people. Don't forget his mother was the Easter Bunny also Abigal.

The logical approach is this:
Posted by: Had Enough | December 3, 2008 9:52 AM

Don't bring logic into this when it doesn't apply. Logic would say that after 2 years of ankle biters on the right looking into this, that there just "isn't anything there". It is clear you have not only had enough, you have had one too many.

C.C.Leong and others -- your statement that Obama hired three law firms and spent nearly a million dollars -- what's your evidence for that?

You wouldn't just be quoting another Internet rumor, would you? That's no way to get people to take you seriously.

If "Had Enough" is an example of the attitude of our law enforcement officer's toward the constitution, heaven help us all. He states, "I will not recognize or enforce any federal law during his "reign"' because "he is a usurper?" My God, I wish I could do the same regarding US Supreme Court decisions I disagree with as well. At least "Had Enough" uses proper English and attempts a logical argument even though his conclusion should scare us all. If this is the best Obama's detractor's can muster, we really need more education funding for critical thinking classes!

I wish I could be amazed that people who are displeased with the election continue to dredge up anything that they can find to discredit the President-Elect. And while I can see some logic in the argument that releasing the birth certificate might quell some of the idiots, this doesn't consider the fact of how far should one have to go to defend against inane, baseless attacks? By acknowledging the venom spewed by petty people, you dignify it.

For those so fond of "paper proof", including Robert Schultz, why don't you prove you aren't a congenital idiot and are psychologically stable? Hand over certified IQ tests and a signed psychiatric evaluation, please.

the right wing nuts are providing me with some of the best comedy since the sarah palin/katie couric interview.

Contrary to what you may have read, no document made available to the public, nor any statement by Hawaiian officials, evidences conclusively that Obama was born in Hawaii. Here is the link to the official Hawaii statement

http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

OMG states:
"My God, I wish I could do the same regarding US Supreme Court decisions I disagree with as well."

It has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with legislation from Obama's administration. I may agree with some of it. I certainly disagree with some current legislation we have, but abide by and enforce it anyway. I will not enforce it, because, according to the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that is taught in law enforcement training academies, any legislation passed fraudulently is invalid and must not be enforced. This provides checks and balances against tyranny. Obama will be a usurper, and therefore his administration's legislation will be fraudulent.

America won't have this problem in 2012-
Sarah Palin and a new crew, no rehabs..

Written by Chris: "If a US citizen gives birth outside of the United States, that child is still considered a natural born citizen ... end of story."

You couldn't be more wrong.

INA Law at the time of his birth, which you MUST conform to states VERY clearly that a child born OUTSIDE the US with only ONE parent who is a US Citizen and one NON citizen have special requirements. The requirement is that the MOTHER of the child must have 10 years residency IN the US, five of those must be after the age of 14. She needed to have been 19 when he was born and was not, she was 18. She got preggo 1 year too soon.

1952 The Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27, 1952, 66 Stat. 163, 235, 8 U.S. Code Section 1401 (b). (Section 301 of the Act) which changed in 1986 (covers his birth is clear when it states: "(7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States, who prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years."

You Lefties who want this to go away need to examine the FACTS about birth abroad before you make sweeping statements like Chris did.

THAT is the end of the story.

And yes, OMG, my conclusions should "scare us all." They are very scary conclusions. That does not make them wrong. We must face things that frighten us from time to time, not pretend they do not exist. If Obama is inaugurated, we will no longer be under the rule of law, that is, our constitution. THAT, OMG, is VERY scary. And it's a reality that we must eventually face, hopefully sooner than later.

Obama Derangement Syndrome: the belief that there's no way a black man could have legitimately won the American presidency, so he must be a secret foreigner Muslim (wrong guy to swear on the Koran, btw, but thanks for playing) who cheated. Otherwise, the ODS sufferers might be forced to realize McCain and Palin lost because he couldn't carry the issues and she came across as dumber than Bush. Also, when it comes to upholding the Constitution, recall that Palin thinks freedom of speech means that the press shouldn't criticize her. If that doesn't scare you a heck of a lot more than the idea of some kid from Hawaii in the White House, you're not defending the Constitution. You're making up excuses because you lost. And finally, "fruit of the poison tree" refers to evidence obained from bad testimony, such as that obtained via torture. But the Republicans wouldn't know anything about that ...

The certificate the Tribune used is a COLB or Certificate of Live Birth not a birth certificate. A COLB shows that a child was born alive not proof of where. Any child born anywhere can get one in HI within a year of birth. Obama's sister born in Indonesia has one also. It isn't such a huge request to see the birth certificate or is it?
Before some make judgments they need to 1.) read the Constitution 2.) read laws at the time of Obama's birth.
No media has covered this at all until after the election. Factcheck.org where the certificate is from is funded by the same foundation that funded The Chicago Annenberg Challenge for Bill Ayers and Obama so they are biased.
It could all be ended quickly and simply by showing a $10 birth certificate and not spending whatever huge amount his lawyers charge. For those who doubt the money spent to fight, read the court filings to see the number of attorneys he has on this and the firms--try to hire them and see the cost. If it is a tin foil conspiracy why fight it? For the sake of the nation, it is little to ask to have Obama stop this now.

Oh Kim, you forget that hypocrisy is high when it comes to these right-wing (and claimed 'centrist') nutjobs. In their little worlds, they can make whatever claims they like, and it's up to him to 'defend' himself against their inane, baseless attacks. They've tried every angle, and are now hammering away at this exceedingly minor issue, with the hope that it'll gain national prominence.
If there was any credibility to this AT ALL, either the Clinton or McCain camps would have seized upon this issue and ran with it... I mean how much easier would it be to win your party's nomination (or the presidency) than to prove that your competitor does not meet the constitutional qualifications to run for the office?
And to those who have trouble understanding the Constitution, the 'natural born' clause was put into place to prevent divided loyalties between the candidates 'home country' and the United States of America. I really don't think President-elect Obama will be pushing Kenya's national agenda at the expense of the good ol' US of A.
This entire scenario just shows that some people will never get it. Thankfully the Supreme Court will put this to rest in a couple days time, but then I'm sure they'll just be listed as 'participants in the cover-up', because these people won't give up until they have some other nutjob conspiracy theory to latch onto.

Good night John Boy...........Is english your second language?

HONOLULU — The state’s Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.HONOLULU — The state’s Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama’s birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family. …

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

Lets hope the truth, if any, comes out the public dosen't know-Wish America could depend on the new media for the truth.

Dear "Had Enough,"

I hope they also taught in the Academy that it is not up to individual law enforcement agents to decide for themselves what laws are legitimate and not and what authority in the executive branch is legitimate or no. I also hope that you will continue to uphold the constitution and all laws promulgated by our government in your jurisdiction until a higher legal authority orders you to not too.

Please note that I teach professional ethics to law enforcement officers in the State of Illinois. Not to be demeaning, but you might need a refresher course given your statements.

Best wishes for success.

You Lefties who want this to go away need to examine the FACTS about birth abroad before you make sweeping statements like Chris did.

THAT is the end of the story.

Posted by: Tim | December 3, 2008 10:38 AM

Gosh...I wish you had been in the republican administration when they told us about the WMDs. Us lefties are just stupid enough to believe documents and statements of fact surrounding Obamas birth, where you inquisitive types dig for "truth". Thankfully your "keen" senses have lead us forward......to one crisis after another.

It's not about whether he's a citizen, it's about whether he was born here. In order to qualify for the presidency you must be born on US soil. There are very real questions about this.

The "Certification of Live Birth" published on the obama web site is not the same as a birth certificate. It is a different form that was created after the fact. The original would be a longer form, signed by the attending physician. It is said to be in a vault in Hawaii. This would all go away if someone would just publish the real birth certificate.

If Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a US citizen under the 14th Amendment. End of story. If he was born abroad, then it gets complicated, because his father was not a US citizen. At that time, with one US citizen parent, that parent must reside in the US 5 years after age 14, which Obama's mother did not. Goofy law, but it is what it is.

http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html

This is all bizarre to me. A birth certificate is a relatively benign document as far as privacy goes, especially when proof of your birth is required to serve as President. I can't imagine why Obama doesn't just turn it over.

Everyone else has a conspiracy theory, so here is mine - some birth certificates contain a space for religious affiliation. Similar to the situation with his boyhood school, they may have put Muslim in there because that was his farther's religion. Obama probably just didn't want to deal with that whole mess again.

MM,
Fruit of the poisonous tree applies technically to unlawful search and siezure as well as confessions, and its broader implications do reach into the realm of anything (including legislation) acquired by fraudulent means. By the way, republicans have recently had a horrendous track record protecting citizens' rights, as have democrats. The two-party system itself is an illusion, as they only differ on fringe issues. That is why you will NOT see the Obama administration prosecuting Bush administration officials for war crimes, or repealing the Patriot Act, and you will see continuation of the same warmongering and high-spending policies under Obama. Change, however, you will NOT see, except the continuing erosion of our liberties that were bought by the blood of patriots.

This would all go away if someone would just publish the real birth certificate.

Posted by: Bill Weinman | December 3, 2008 11:00 AM

If you don't believe the statements from the state where he was born, a photo of the certificate would never be enough proof for the mindless. It could be a fake, it could have been doctored, it could be that little green martians have placed this thought in our minds. That is the great thing about absurdity.

What is Obama's reason for not disclosing it? Privacy? That makes no sense. All the info that would be on there - parents' names, DOB, POB, etc. are already well known. If all of the info is already public knowledge, what privacy interest is there to protect? Why not just release it and put this to rest?

Dear OMG,
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. It should not be up to individual officers to determine the law, and it is ideal not to even have individual officers interpreting the law. However, what we are talking about is a situation of highly extenuating circumstances. We are talking about a complete breakdown of the rule of law in the entire federal system in the United States. Therefore, for "laws" passed under the Obama administration to become valid, they will HAVE to be confirmed by individual states or municipalities. In other words, the states and/or municipalities will have to pass their own "version" of the Obama administration laws in order for them to be valid. Otherwise, they are to be ignored. THAT is constitutional.

Gotta love the lunatic fringe. Obama omitted one thing when he described the wing-nuts. They cling to their guns and religion (and conspiracies). Rome is burning and they still can't go forward and deal with the dire issues at hand, two wars, failing economy, etc.

Posted by Had Enough -
**********
Therefore, for "laws" passed under the Obama administration to become valid, they will HAVE to be confirmed by individual states or municipalities. In other words, the states and/or municipalities will have to pass their own "version" of the Obama administration laws in order for them to be valid. Otherwise, they are to be ignored. THAT is constitutional.
**********

You misspelled 'delusional' at the end there. I hope you're giving this same speech to your boss, so they can make sure to have your replacement trained by inauguration day.

fido5150:

My supervisor and I are in total agreement. Law enforcement exists to maintain peace and order, and that is done by protecting civil rights and keeping American citizens free, not by suppressing them. You may not understand this, but laws restricting our freedoms actually protect lawbreakers from the rest of us, because we would be the only ones to comply.

"This would all go away if someone would just publish the real birth certificate."

No it wouldn't. Some "i" would not be dotted, or a "t" incorrectly crossed. A fleck of dust would be proof of forgery.

New evidence, no matter how good, seldom stop conspiracy theories with a head of steam. See 9/11 Truthers or JFK assassination theories for more on that.

Do we even know if these oft-repeated talking points are true? Can you really get your "long form" birth certificate for $10? Did Obama really spend $800K to fight these people? I'm unconvinced, as I've seen the $10 change to $12 and I've seen the $800K change to MILLIONS, depending upon the person claiming it.

If Obama gave these folks "evidence," he'd just give this stupid story credence.

1. Naturalized: Usually born in another country and usually is a citizen of another country. Acquire US citizenship by oath of allegiance.

2. Native born: Maybe born in the USA (or abroad) from parents where either(a) one, or (b) both are NOT US citizens. Acquire US citizenship by birth. Is not considered 'natural born citizen' (the point here is that 'natural born citizenship' is not equivalent of 'US citizenship').

3. Natural born: Born in the USA from parents who are both US citizens in the following way: either (a) naturalized citizens, or (b) native born citizens, or (c) natural born citizens. Acquire US citizenship by birth.

The one that we are discussing is "Natural Born Citizen" this is the best explanation of the term that I have ever seen.

Just produce the damn certificate and shut everybody up.

Had Enough ---

So since Bush was unlawfully elected twice via rigged Diebold voting machines, illegal voter disenfranchisement, and Supreme Court fiat brought about by a fake riot of paid young Republicans bussed into Florida to cause trouble, are you saying you also have not enforced any laws passed by the Bush Administration? I'd love to have a job where I don't have to work for, what will it be, twelve years now?

It's a birth certificate. You can't have the original. Adoptees who want to find the names of their birth parents found this out years ago. Tin foil hats do not get special privileges the rest of us don't. If having the certificate posted online isn't enough, if having the people who are legally allowed to actually view the thing certify that it's real isn't enough for the crackpots, then nothing will be good enough for you. The rest of us will be over here in the reality-based community when you're ready to join us.

Dear HAD ENOUGH,

At the very least, it probably is the case that Obama was born in Hawaii. At the very most he was born abroad while his mother was working for the government, making things a little more complicated. As a law enforcement person I'm sure you can think of many instances where there were laws that didn't work in the past and needed to be changed, whether it be to close loop holes or due to total injustice. Just because it is law doesn't mean that it is necessarily RIGHT. Some law enforcement should be made based on plain old common sense. You seem very rigid toward enforcing the law exactly as written. Would you have done the same for slavery and segregation? I realize these examples are a bit extreme to compare, yet they are parallel to your argument of following the letter of the law. As was pointed out earlier, the 'natural born' clause was put into place to prevent divided loyalties between the candidates 'home country' and the United States of America. Do you honestly think that Obama is a Kenyan loyalist? What I'm saying is if one had to make a judgment and decide why this law was created and how it applies to Obama’s situation, what would a logical and reasonable person conclude? Think about that for a moment. Keep in mind that I am playing devil’s advocate here and assuming for the sake of argument that there may be a snag in the law concerning Obama’s birth certificate, although I really don’t believe that to be the case. But if after close examination of the circumstances you still choose to not uphold the laws that Obama may pass, I can only assume that if we were having this conversation 150 years ago you would be telling me that slavery is the law and that’s all there is to it. If that’s the case and you are unable to make common sense judgments: WAKE UP! Contrary to what you believe our laws are not perfect nor are they the end all when it comes to justice, hence the reason we enact new ones and change old one all too frequently. Please, try to look at things a little bit differently – you’d be surprised at what you find.

Wow, I was going to post a legit argument as to why this witch hunt was way of base, because you are innocent until proven guilty, therefore: Obama is a U.S. Citizen as vetted by the DOJ. If you have proof, verifiable proof, that he was born elsewhere, bring it on! In writing, documented. Cut the B.S. Thank you for posting, this is a great outlet though for the nut jobs who would otherwise be "going postal "or running naked on the expressway .

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am interested in the facts.

One of the items mentioned often by those supporting Obama is the statement from the Hawaiian Health Dept. official. A careful reading of that statement reveals that, although this official says they "...have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.", this official has NOT stated that the original birth certificate specifies Hawaii as his place of birth.

Dodging the question or simply a misstatment? We do not know, but the statement in itself does not answer the question of Obama's natural born status.

As I said, I have no axe to grind in this matter, but I do value facts and accuracy, and as of yet we have not been able to prove this thing definitively one way or the other.

The one that we are discussing is "Natural Born Citizen" this is the best explanation of the term that I have ever seen.

Posted by: regionnus rattus | December 3, 2008 12:00 PM

Please refer to our constitution. 14th Amendment, Title 8, section 1401.

It states anyone born in the United States. It makes no refrence to what his parents are.

The rule of law must be followed. Otherwise, we will suffer a constitutional crisis and possible social unrest. Obama MUST prove he is a US citizen immediately. This is not going to go away. Russian journalists are already predicting a breakup of the United States over primarily this issue. They may be correct, especially if the incoming administration tries to ram its agenda (which is still vastly unclear) down our throats by legislation. People will realize they do not have to obey it constitutionally. Military personnel and law enforcement who took an oath to the Constitution will realize that they must disobey any unconstitutional orders. We can survive four or eight years of any president, but we cannot survive without our constitution.

I had heard that someone was going to sue over the fact that Obama might not be eligible to run. I am waiting to see the results of all of that. If it turns out that he's not then Dems will have to deal with that. It's their problem at that point not mine.

"Just produce the damn certificate and shut everybody up.

Posted by: pacific_waters "

Why would Obama--or any of his supporters--want these loonies to shut up?

Let a billiion nutjobs rave everyday for four years, and the next Obama landslide will be even bigger.

Thanks again, Far Far Righters, for making our Democratic job so easy.

I will obey/enforce laws that do not violate the Constitution. Obama's laws, by definition if he is a usurper, violate the Constitution. Other laws (passed during the Bush administration and others) are also unconstitutional. The Patriot Act, for example, is one of these laws, so I will not charge anyone under the Patriot Act. Our oath as officers is to the US CONSTITUTION. Therefore, any officer who takes the oath must screen the laws through the filter of the CONSTITUTION before enforcing them.

The rule of law must be followed.
Posted by: Had Enough | December 3, 2008 12:21 PM

I am a veteran and you are absolutely right. One must not follow an unconstitutional law. However, as I in the military, and you in civil service, it is neither your or my duty to interpret the law. Your job is to obey the law of the land period. If you "and" your superior are interpreting the law, you are doing so illegally.

Republicans lost because people who start rumors like this have an important voice in their party. If you want to win in 2012, you ought to get the crackpots out now, or hope that over 50% of the country will be dumb enough to fall for this kind of stuff.

MM's recent argument was better. Yes, Bush's presidency was very likely the result of a stolen election. And, to answer your question (as I did in a previous post), I did not and will not enforce unconstitutional laws such as the Patriot Act, which was passed during the Bush administration. The Constitution is the ultimate filter of laws, because it is the supreme law of the land.

Had Enough.

So then you would have upheld laws that treated slaves as property. Am I hearing this right? I just want all the people out there reading this to be clear about you thought process and logic. After all, you talk about screening laws through the filter of the constitution, which didn't have a law against slavery, and certainly left a lot open for interpretation. Which brings me to "your" notion of interpretation when "screening laws". Why do I get the feeling you don't want to address this one.

And MM, concerning the rest of your post:

I will never again join the ranks of the sheep. I once was one, and my awakening was very traumatic and not fun at all. The sheep are being led over a cliff by a pack of wolves in sheep's clothing. So, pardon me as I walk in the opposite direction among the sheep saying, "excuse me, excuse me, excuse me." I've seen the cliff.

Had enough, As a law enforcement agent I demand that you prove you are not a criminal immediatley. Please provide documented proof that you aren't providing muscle for a drug gang. It is imperative to have a rule of law, and until you prove your innocence, I will not acknowledge you as a law officer.

Please also prove that you are not a communist sleeper agent, an alien from the andromeda galaxy, or a genetically modified cow.

Bill R,
There is no interpretation involved. The law you speak of is the constitution. It means just what it says. Legislation, however, must be interpreted by officers. It must be screened to ensure it is not unconstitutional, just like any orders you receive. For example, if you receive an order to police American cities and homes and disarm citizens under martial law or otherwise, that is an unconstitutional order that must not be obeyed.

I'm attempting to reply to multiple posts:

Matt: the 13th amendment to the Constitution prohibits slavery.

Enough is Enough:
This one's funny. Unless you are in my jurisdiction, or I am in yours, you have no standing to make your demand. However, as I have already proven such to my agency through psychological screening, background checks, and polygraph tests, it's pretty much been confirmed. Also, unlike Obama, I actually had to provide my long form birth certificate.

Just release the original birth certificate already. The Constitution is more important than any one man, including Mr. Barack Obama.

Matt,
I had initially posted a longer response to your long post, but I don't see it on the board, so I'll attempt a re-post.

The essence of your argument is, since the law (constitution) is flawed, Obama should be allowed to ignore its requirement for POTUS, whether he's eligible or not, and we should recognize him as president. So, maybe he can then ignore that annoying 2nd amendment and posse comitatus at the same time, sending our troops into our homes to confiscate our guns? Oh, and that annoying freedom of speech thing, too. It's got to be a hindrance having people who don't agree with Obama in the streets sharing their opinions. They should be in a gulag being tortured. Come on, Matt. That doesn't hold water.

This reminds me of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy. It lasted for at least 20 years in its vibrant state and probably still alive in a smaller form.

There is something about the Hawaiian birth certificate that will give conspirators something to mutter about. I have no doubts about Obama's citizenship but also no doubt that this nonsense will be around for years.

As a point of logic, if Obama is a citizen and has not been naturalized and has a Hawaiian birth certificate then what else can he be but a natural born citizen. This will go through the courts be resolved in Obama's favor and the prattle of the lunatics who believe otherwise will not end. Those who personally want to see the certificate and have no legal standing to do so are simply nosey busy bodies who want to portray themselves as serious citizens. We have a legal system for resolving such issues and that is the only venue for this issue.

Had enough, does your agency post your long form birth certifcate for the public to view? How about your Psych tests? Until they do I will not accept that you have one. Just having a government agency verify it is not enough.. I must personally view all the evidence myself to dtermione if you are a legitimate agent of the government, just as you havre determined that you personally must view the President elect's birth certificate. Until you make lall that information available to the general public, you have no legitimacy and I deny your right to enforce the laws and will consider you to be an usurper of police powers.

My argument says that before the 13th amendment you would have enforced all laws of the land that supported slavery because of your strict adherence to the "law." You claim not to join the ranks of sheep but that is exactly what you would have done. Your moral compass is completely directed by a piece of paper and all of the tiny details and procedures that go into amending it. WOW! Do you also pray to the constitution before you go to bed at night? You say that you have to follow the constitution (a man made document by the way) which would have made you a slave supporter before the 13th amendment and against slavery after the amendment - is that right - after all it was jsut a matter of law. Do you ever come up with logical common sense conclusions on your own, or do you need that document in your back pocket to figure out what to do at any given moment. Talk about joining the ranks of the sheep.

The is a myth out there--that Obama has produced his "birth certificate" for people to see.

Reporters Janega and Olken are the myth-makers. Or more accurately, they knowlingly pass along that myth.

As any genealogist can tell you:

1) Hawaii's birth certificate is officially labelled the "certificate of live birth."
2) No reporter has seen said certificate, or even an image of it.
3) Privacy laws mean that only Obama can release his birth certificate. He has not done so.
4) An image has been posted online, purporting to be a "Certification of Live Birth" for Obama.
5) This is an image, not a document.
6) Further, it is NOT a birth certificate, but a different document, clearly labelled "Certification", not "Certificate." The Certification is a record of a state check of their original documents, including the actual Certificate of birth.

I take a middle ground here, in that while I believe Obama WAS born in Hawaii, I take issue with reporters who falsely claim that Obama has released his "birth certificate."

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

Notice she says:

"have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."

The only thing she said is that Hawaii has Obam's original birth certificate on record. She does not say his Hawaiian Birth Certificate. She did not verify his place of birth. By law she cannot verify his birth place. She can only verify that the State of Hawaii has his original birth certificate on file. Mr. Obama will not allow this document to be released.

EnE:
You make me laugh. It's a good effort, though. I never demanded to personally see the man's birth certificate, or any other proof. The Supreme Court and applicable investigating agencies, however, must see and confirm that he is eligible. Hawaiian officials did NOT confirm that Obama was US-born, although they stated they have seen his birth certificate. He must also provide officials with evidence that he is not an Indonesian citizen, as there is no dual citizenship in Indonesia and he was adopted and went to school there as a citizen, and also allegedly travelled with an Indonesian passport. Review the facts of the case before you make broad assumptions.

I have enjoyed everyone's dialogue. I must go to work. Just think, there is a jurisdiction here, in the good ole USA, where citizens' rights will NOT be trampled. It's great to live here.

Ok, one more. I couldn't resist this one.
Matt, you didn't answer my rebuttal of your argument's fallicy. If we can arbitrarily disregard any part of the constitution, then we can arbitrarily disregard all of it. No, I don't worship it, or even agree with everything it says. I'm talking about enforcing the LAW. Those who drafted the constitution were men, but they were Christian men. They believed in the Bible foremost, and attempted to draft the constitution accordingly. Your allegation of my "joining the ranks of the sheep" is nothing but a personal ad hominem attack with no substance or supporting evidence. Whether I would have personally been in favor of slavery is not the issue. The issue is whether I would have arrested slaveholders for violating a non-existent law, and the answer is NO. It's been fun.

This is a critical issue to Ameirica- Why don't they release the original Birth Certificate-?

"This is a critical issue to Ameirica- Why don't they release the original Birth Certificate-?"

Has any other Presidential candidate had to do so? Ever?

And has anybody considered this:

While the Constitution does provide that a president must be a natural born citizen, the first Congress of the United States in 1790 passed legislation stating: "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States."

Source: Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/junkie/archive/junkie070998.htm

"This is a critical issue to Ameirica- Why don't they release the original Birth Certificate-?"

Has any other Presidential candidate had to do so? Ever?

And has anybody considered this:

While the Constitution does provide that a president must be a natural born citizen, the first Congress of the United States in 1790 passed legislation stating: "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States."

Source: Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/junkie/archive/junkie070998.htm

Posted by: Jamie in Las Vegas | December 3, 2008 2:51 PM

Know you mean well but you don't seem to understand the deph of issue-
Just scroll though 78 hirts on this issue-

The time and age we are in now almost everything seems to be accepted! I beleive alot people know the truth but are ok with it enough is enough.

All of the Republican water-carriers who faithfully parroted every lunacy and vicious Bush/Cheney lie of the last eight years are seeing their Propaganda Factory shut down and put out of business. They can't control the national conversation anymore.

THIS is the vision of the modern GOP:

2001 a Space Odyssey . . . the early scene where the apes first encounter the obelisk. The obelisk represents the court cases about Obama's birth certificate. The apes dancing around it, going wild, are the Freeper GOPers and their related ilk.

THAT is what the GOP has left.

"Know you mean well but you don't seem to understand the deph of issue."

There is no depth of this issue. It's a desperate attempt to toss out Obama on a technicality. The whole effort aims to declare him inelligible, and hammer out the details later: citizen/not a citizen, born here/not born here, dual citizenshim/un-reinstated citizenship. It's all over the place.

It's baloney, through and through and has no substance. All of you out there pretending you're defending the Constitution: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS?

I just wish Obama would release the document. That would stop all of this.

Its all simple just release the real birth certificate and it will all come to an end. Everybody needs to realize how serious this is Democratics, Republicans its not a Republican thing its not about the Republicans cant get over it its are constitution

I believe as a citizen of the United States where the president is elected by the people we have a legal right to know whether, because of the continued controversy (right or wrong), president-elect Obama has a right because of his birth to be that president. And, as a representative of the people he should be not only be willing to end that controversy, but insist upon it.

I just wish Obama would release the document. That would stop all of this.

Posted by: HowardB | December 3, 2008 4:49 PM

While I would like to agree, much already has been released and as you can see, it means nothing to the mindless. There will never be enough proof for the lame who can't come to grips with the truth or Obama as president. What would you offer as proof
to someone you show the color red and they see only yellow?

This debate is beyond hilarious (TM) and into the realm of the absurd.

President Obama
President Obama

Now, repeat....

But by all means keep up the intellectually bankrupt attacks, cons; It will only marginalize you more for the '10 elections.

C Morris>I don't think anyone is trying to bankrupt ANYTHING. I think people have concern, just as I do, that there may be something to the rumors that there may be some shananagans behind Obama's run for office that were not ligit. We would just want it checked out, and after that we are fine. No big deal, just check it out and we all move on, okay dear!?

It just makes me think he's trying to hide something ... oh wait... if he's hiding it, he IS trying to hide something .... I don't know what the big deal is about showing his real birth certificate, unless there IS something to hide ?? I think it's been let go too long and it's making people mad ...

S. I. Hayakawa wrote an important book after WW2 exploring the question of how words came to be so dangerous in propoganda during WW2 (and human history in general.) One concept that came out was the idea of a 'meaningful sentence'. That is, a sentence is 'meaningful' if it can be posed in a way that can be proven or disproven.

"My hair is green" is meaningful but incorrect (it can be analyzed by a spectography and see the wavelengths are not green but brown). "I have an invisible friend" is NOT meaningful because it can not be disproved.

So if Obama has produced his birth certificate, and the state of Hawaii has confirmed its authenticity, saying "Obama needs to produce his birth certificate" is not a meaningful sentence. The conspiracy theory must now fall on the state of Hawaii and a long complex string of conspiracy actors.

But please dont' say "all he needs to do is produce his certificate" when he did so. That's not a meaningful sentence. Instead, write a comment telling me about your invisible friends.

Those wingnuts are so stupid. Dumb. Because the constitution is stupid. And I love Obama so much I don't care if he's a citizen or not. In fact, I'd love it even more if foreign interests controlled our government. Then they would make all these people shut up and do exactly what they're told. That's why they are so stupid. I am so smart. SMRT!

The problem with Had Enough’s logic is very scary indeed, considering his occupation. Last time I checked, law officers used evidence to convict a criminal who had at least probable cause to bring about the charges. Everything he talks about here is just the opposite of what he supposedly does for a living. First, there has been no probable cause, in fact, the opposite is true with the health officer PR. Second, he would have to be found guilty of being ineligible, which would thirdly, make him get relieved of his post (and probably a whole lot of other interesting legal snafus). So with that obvious chain of events, how in God’s green friggen earth can we have a “law officer” that disobeys laws that are passed by a president that he thinks (but can not prove with evidence) is guilty?!?!? Your wishy washy story would not even be enough for a judge to grant a search warrant!

Also, would you tin foil hat wearers like to see his SS# too? Hell, let’s post all of his personal documents to the press and see what kinds of problems can be created. I’m sure we’re all good people here in the states, and no one would ever want to do anything bad to our first black president…..idiots.

Please, by all means, follow Inky and keep posting. You all are going to make it so much easier in 2012. There has been a change that took place 3 years ago….it’s a big fancy word, so it may go over many of the pugs heads…..it’s called a paradigm change. It might be 20 years until a heavily modified pug party can reemerge from the ashes of the big tent, if it even stays together.

Obama is spitting in the face of all Americans.

Who is paying the defense's legal fees? You and I are, it has to be in the ten's of thousands if not hundreds. To settle all but one of these cases (the Donofrio's case is not based on whether or not Mr. Obama was born abroad or not) Mr. Obama only needs to spend around 10 bucks to have his original birth certificate released. I do not understand why, so therefore Obama is spitting in the face of all Americans. The People have spoken and this is the change we get?

Why don't you doubters just take a vacation to Honolulu and visit the public record office. They'll show you the records and probably sell you a copy for $5.
If he were born somewhere else, where???
And how did he get back into the US??
Why aren't you having Condi and her friends at the State Dept. check out his passport.
Hey, that's a good idea--why don't you investigate how he got a US passport in the first place, if he's not, according to you, a US Citizen.
Do y'all think he naturalized?
Maybe he's a citizen of Japan, ya think?
By the way, birth cert trolls: where are YOUR "original" birth certificates?
Betcha you don't got none and wd be hard pressed to come up with one.
Your first stop in that effort: public record office in municipality you claim you were born in.

Maybe that would even be Honolulu.

The rule of law must be followed. Otherwise, we will suffer a constitutional crisis and possible social unrest. --------------------This is not going to go away. Russian journalists are already predicting a breakup of the United States ---------

Posted by: Had Enough | December 3, 2008 12:21 PM
--------------------------------------------
M o r o n. Yes, Russian journalists have been predicting the breakup of the USA, based mostly on jealousy that the USSR broke up, and the USA didn't.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/262682

You'l notice that there is NO mention of Obama's citizenship in the article. More fake facts from reactionary rightnuts faking facts and making up c r a p to try to scare people. And so what if Russian journalists have predicted it? If they had predicted Obama's election based on shrub's stupid policies, do you think this mor_on would have pushed that meme?

Nope.
Where was this mor__on when shrub was shredding the Constitution? Or when the repiglicans wanted to use the nuclear option to stop debating in the Congress? Or when the shrub administration spied illegally on US citizens? Or when it illegally imprisoned people without the right of habeas corpus? No where to be seen. Now we have Constitutional crisis? Sorry cryboy. Go away. You are a boring gnat, with no ideas. COme back afterhigh school and try it then. Until then, y a w n .....