Senate GOP: Stimulus will Europeanize us

What specifically does the GOP have against Europe?

Posted by: Vivian | February 10, 2009 4:43 PM
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Viv, if you were to read McConnell's and Kyl's remarks above, you'd have your answer.
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I'm not opposed to government spending in principle. I'm opposed to government waste. And I'm not opposed to the programs in this bill (such as the examples cited above)... but I'm opposed to them being in THIS BILL. Later, when we pull out of this crisis, Congress can address these issues.
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The immediate task is short term job creation/preservation through a combination of judicious spending and tax cuts. Much of this bill's spending doesn't do that. Any child can figure that out, and indeed must of the American public is wisely dubious about this so-called "Stimulus".

The Republicans, having taken such a beating in the mid-terms and again in the Presidential election, have clearly decided they have nothing to lose now and the only way to get the Reaganites and Dittoheads back in the fold is to bash every single idea, program or plan the Democrats come up with - despite the disastrous consequences for the American people. They know they still dominate the radio airwaves and still have most of the TV media on their side (with it being owned by huge corporate conglomerates... ) so they're free to spew their false talking points, knowing they'll be repeated as truths by the media blowhards. They're just praying Obama fails at something - anything - sooner rather than later so they can say "told you so" and have the media echo chamber readily agree. That's the only way they have ever been able to take power from the Democrats and even though it might take a little longer than they'd like, that's clearly their plan for taking it back again.

As long as Republicans are seen as the party at fault (which they are), they will not have a great deal of traction in being obstructionist. No surprise, that. They have not been effective in denting Obama's popularity, or stopping the bill from passing. And, hey, maybe no one really likes watching Lindsay Graham have a television tantrum, not even Republicans.

The immediate task is short term job creation/preservation through a combination of judicious spending and tax cuts. Much of this bill's spending doesn't do that. Any child can figure that out, and indeed must of the American public is wisely dubious about this so-called "Stimulus".

Posted by: MJ | February 10, 2009 5:10 PM

You mean the tax cuts for the rich that your heroes in GOP are always pushing for? The very same one's that led us down this economic sinkhole in the first place? Because that's what they are, any child can figure that out.

The GOPer's have proven one thing very well over the last eight years, THEY CAN"T GOVERN and when they do the focus on the wealthiest among us.

You GOPer's need to come up with some new idea's or you risk fading away forever.

Anyone remember when the GOP was saying that the economic troubles were figments of our imagination? We were just imagining foreclosures and job losses. According to them we were sick in the head remember that? Country First?

Is this guy dumb or what? Its obvious he's a history revisionist with his false Republican spending spree figures and every single thing he calls an earmark will create jobs. So whats his point? The Republicans are so out of touch with reality its laughable even more now then ever!

"Tax cuts" do work...in exactly the way the Rethuglicans intended for them to work. To make the rich, richer. That after all is the over all purpose of the Rethuglican party.

The pigheadedness of the Republican Party is breathtaking. Have they been asleep for the past 30 years? Is it not readily apparent that tax cuts aren't the magical elixir they've been made out to be by successive generations of conservative ideologues?

Those Replican senators looked a sorry lot today on CNN.

Funerial, superannuated, devoid of any solutions of their own, sad sacks.

Except for that tall one who took Daschle's seat.

He looked rather out of place.

In other words, MJ is against government spending to create jobs or help the unemployed; he only wants his tax cuts. Without spending MJ, we won't pull out of this. The American public is in favor of the stimulus.

Republicans got us into the mess, by all means, let's listen to what they think.

Republicans got us into the mess, by all means, let's listen to what they think.

Republicans got us into the mess, by all means, let's listen to what they think.

Lets see, for ideological reasons Geobbels Own Party wants you to:

Lose your job, go hungry, lose your children's educations, go without medical care, give up your retirement to satisfy their late 19th century thinking.

Hey New McIdiot! The 'Europeans' were our main allies against the Commies, you stupid right wing dunderhead.

Has 'Idiot Wind' McWhatever ever been to Europe? Does he understand that the UK, Fr., Germany, Italy, Spain, all the African nations, Asia, are what we are comprised of?

Hey dumb%$#$! I like French Fries!

Republicans and their corporate media allies are going to be very surprised with how resistant the American people are in blaming Obama just as they couldn't understand how the people rallied around Clinton in the government shut-down, and impeachment scandals.

Obama can run against Republicans for blocking everything. But, more he can argue that he's doing everything possible. People side with the party they think understands and sympathizes with their problems and will try and fix things. And that sure isn't the Republicans.

What exactly do the pugs propose that we do, other than tax cuts? Really? I am really getting sick of hearing them whine.

Also, the young America could really take some good pointers from societies that have been around much longer than ours.

So now the GOP thinks they can score some points by demonizing Europe? Is there nothing that these mouth-breathers won't do or say to come back into power or stay in power?
The GOP continues to this day to be able to con some of the blue collar Americans (mostly in the south) who always parrot their calls for more tax cuts. Apparently they don't have an internet connection or they only listen to Druggy Rush and Faux News because if they ever read the fine print they'd notice that when the GOP talks tax cuts they're talking about tax cuts for the wealthiest 1-2% of Americans, Big Corporations and Big Oil.

They've become used to blaming others. The Repuglican leadership (Rush, Faux News etc) is very, very skilled at identifying scapegoats so that almost all of their blue collar supporters have someone else to blame for their sorry state of affairs i.e.: "liberals, tax-and-spend Democrats, hippies, communists, immigrants, gays". It's an easy way to avoid facing reality. - "Gay people drove my property values up! And Mexicans took my $50.00 per hour lettuce-picking job from me! And the Demoncrats take all my tax money and use some of it for THINGS I DON'T NEED! And the hippies made us lose Vietnam! And the Communists...well...not sure what they did...and the liberals killed my cousin's baby after I got her pregnant! And the immigrants! How dare they have the chance to earn the same quality of life and hope for their childrens' future that I have for me and my family"!

Most of the average GOPer's (Inky) still haven't figured out that wealth doesn't ever trickledown to them. It's like a shell game to the Repuglican leadership, using diversionary tactics to steer the people away from seeing the real problems. Unfortunately for them, they're starting to lose that game nowdays.

Hey Mitch.
Thanks for all those good policies that avoided this mess. You know, when your sect was in charge for 12 out of the last 14 years.
Good heads up, buddy. Thanks for protecting my 401k. You are a genius.
Thanks for making health care affordable. Great job on the environment, too.
And explain to us again how more tax cuts don't add to the deficit? How that's not spending?
America, you will wake up to this when the government is forced to monetize the whole mess. Let's see how many carrier battle groups you want then?
Hey kids! How are you enjoying paying off Reagan's deficits. What? They are old debts? Tuff. It's still gotta be paid back.

Posted by: rupert | February 10, 2009 6:18 PM
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Rupert, read my comment: I said a combination of tax cuts AND SPENDING. But any spending that doesn't generate jobs, especially in the short term, (or aid the unemployed, right) should not be in this bill.
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Also, the polls I've seen in the last week or so show the public is not enthused about this "stimulus" bill. If that has changed recently, show me some numbers.
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Posted by: plowhorse | February 10, 2009 5:45 PM
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John E -- you shown yourself to be the same old idiot copying and pasting the same old meaningless claptrap. No surprise there.

Hey 'Mitch';
Good buddy, thanks for having my back all these years.
Your economic 'plan' is very interesting. Having worked for a railroad for many years in a past life I think I am eminently qualified to live your ideology, riding the rails! It's the good old days of the Grapes of Wrath all over again.
You are a genius. I can't wait to get beat up by a 'border guard' of some state that doesn't want the new arrivals.

Posted by: C.Morris✈ | February 10, 2009 6:27 PM
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It's spelled "Goebbels", you chowder head. And you and "OldCreaky" would seem less silly if your comments had even a smidgeon of relevance to the thread.
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Anybody with an IQ greater than their hat size knows that "Europeanization" refers to Europe's taxation and government spending.

Democrats should agree on a conference committee stimulus bill that is as tough as the House version or even tougher. It should be exactly the bill that we think should pass, with no deference to Republicans or to "centrist" Democrats.

Critics of this approach will say that, if we do so, Republicans and "centrist" Democrats will vote "no."

That's fine. We should be happy to see them vote "no" on the first proposed bill.

Once they vote "no," they own the future of the economy.

Once they vote "no," then when things don't go well -- as seems likely -- we will be able to say that if they had voted for the bill we proposed, things would have improved.

The Republicans want to play the prospective blame game? Then so can we. In fact, we must.

This approach will delay passage of a final bill -- maybe by a week or two. It will be worth that cost.

That is how the Republicans played the game when they were in control. This time -- having offered "bipartisanship" and had it hurled back in our face -- we should be the same way. We should emphasize the differences between the parties on the question of the stimulus. The economy is in for a very rough ride; we want the public to remember which side deserves the blame. The delay caused by our taking this approach may cost us perhaps a week of time before we enact a final bill. The payoff -- from showing clearly who we are and who they are -- may last for decades.

And who knows -- if the Republicans have gamed this out and come to the same conclusion, maybe they'll decide to take a softer line in the conference committee. Wouldn't that be sweet!

The pigheadedness of the Republican Party is breathtaking. Posted by: sniperfire

Pigheaded is the perfect word, since their strategy is to call all stimulus spending pork.

The Europeans, in places like Belgium, Denmark, Scandanavia, France, etc., who have health care and a bit of job security are happier than people in other places. Sen. McConnell may want to check it out.

If you're a Republican who has seen Karl Rove's promise of a permanent Gee Oh Pee majority shattered in the past four years, there's a glimmer of hope on the horizon. If only, if only, if only enough Americans can be made suffer for the next 20 months or so, there's a chance for whittling away at the Democrats' margins in Congress and to capture back some of the lost governorships and legislatures that Republicans have been losing their grip on in almost every region except the South.

Republicans see it as a good thing if only the unemployment rate stays high, if only enough businesses fail, if only enough people lose their homes to foreclosure, file for bankruptcy, have to tell their kids that the money they expected to have available to send them to college just isn't there anymore. Because, in their warped worldview, bad news for most of us Americans is good news for transforming the Republicans' misfortunes into an electoral restoration.

Silly Dems. Every dollar the government steals and then spend inefficiently is a dollar that is taken from the private sector. The government never spends your money wisely. Stop looking to the government to save you. All they can do is create an environment where business can prosper, then get out of the way. Schiff was right, as usual:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H5V2K0siOg

Hey, 'Hey Old Joe Creaky Morris'!

You have just been praying for that typo, huh?

Europeanize? If it comes with free health care, I'm in.

Sure MJ...... the majority of people support the stimulus package in polls by Gallup, Pew, CNN and CBS. Only the Rasmussen (notoriously conservative) polls otherwise. So I guess that's the only one you hear about on FoxNoise.

Blinky,
The Repimplicans are trying to legislate a disaster without voting for it.

Baucus, a powerful Senator from Montana, is trying to KILL the provision in the Stimulus bill that safeguards AMERICAN JOBS. HE is the leader to slaughter this law in the Senate to remove the E-Verify Law that removes illegal aliens from the workplace

WE THE PEOPLE MUST DEMAND E-Verify stays in the Stimulus package. It could save save American taxpayers Hundreds of billions of dollars in social services.

ISN'T THIS STIMULUS BILL SUPPOSED TO GENERATE WORK FOR AMERICANS, NOT ILLEGAL ALIENS WHO BROKE OUR LAWS?

Bombard this pro-illegal alien, anti-American sovereignty politician with your angry faxes and calls. This man could have been brought and sold by special interest lobbyists or foreign governments

Baucus Office, Washington D.C.
(202) 224-2651(Office)
(202) 224-9412 (Fax)

Washington Switchboard at 202-224-3121.

http://baucus.senate.gov/contact/emailForm.cfm?subj=issue

Reamer seems to have hit on something.
Aren't we the 'kids' that are 'still paying off' Reagan's deficit spending? And then won't our kids have to pay off Bush's spending? I guess that leaves it to our grandkids to pay off Obama's spending.
Of course none of it is being paid off yet. We came close at the end of the ClintonTime, but GWB stepped in just in time to prevent that from happening.
(Terry, is everything spelled to your satisfaction?)

I'm hopeful that the tax credit for auto buyer can be redirected to the Fuel-Eefficient Automobiles.

Good heavens, the Lefties are clueless about economic matters and history. Tax cuts did not cause the economy to falter. Tax cuts improve the economy, not weaken it. Bush's tax cuts were not tax cuts for the rich. Under his tax cuts the marriage penalty went bye-bye, child deductions doubled and every tax margin was lowered, with the biggest drops for those making less money. In fact, under Bush's tax cuts, about 30 percent of the American workers no longer pay an income tax.
The economy went into the tank because the housing market overheated and blew a gasket, and energy prices soared. But the Democrats had been obstructionists about improving this country's energy situation. In fact, Obama is on the record for saying he is going to bankrupt the U.S. coal industry. And then we have Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, who told us in the summer that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were sound. One month before they went belly up. Facts, loons, facts.

Mitch , LaMar, et al., apparently have decided to place a big bet on economy going way further down than it is today.

Then, trying to blame it on Obama.

They, the great Nietzchian Nay Sayers!

An interesting approach.

BTW what did Nietzche have to say about tax cuts, anyway?

"...the majority of people support the stimulus package in polls by Gallup, Pew, CNN and CBS..."
Posted by: rupert | February 10, 2009 9:15 PM
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Support has been hovering right around 50% (+ -) for a month. Like I said, the public is unenthusiastic about this. But polling is a moot point.
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I see you have conveniently ignored my principle point.

You totally misrepresent the polls, MJ; and your principle point is that you prefer tax cuts and "judicious" spending--contrary to most economists-- and you exaggerate, like all Republicans, the amount of pork in the bill. I didn't ignore your point, I already addressed it. Tax cuts are not a primary job creator in this situation.

McConnell is completely right- and it's good politics for the GOP too, because most Americans will regret this bill soon enough. Already, less that 40% approved.

Most people don't want this, except those looking for a piece of the pork-pie... and left-wing kooks like Obama. So, they're ramming it down our throats while they've still got some momentum... which according to the polls is fading, quick.

Now that he owns this misguided, gargantuan "stimulus" bill, Obama's a one-termer for sure... because this thing is a real clunker. He may find himself severely restrained by big GOP gains in 2010 already-

Obama is bad news for this country... in every way.
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http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com/

The fear of going socialist is real. Most of you I suppose have never been to Europe. There is no incentive for anyone to work hard and take the more challenging jobs because you can easily just take jobs with no education and make good money. This causes no incentive to make advancements in medicine, technology, ets. Not to mention they have no military to speak of. I work 70 hours a week to climb the corporate ladder, I pursue advanced education. If the government controls all big business, and spreads the wealth, Im basically working hard to subsidize the incomes of those who just take the easy route. America has gotten to be the most powerful country in the world by embracing capitalism and allowing people to rise up, be inventive, and be rewarded for their hard work. The path we are headed down will take that away, and there is really no going back...

Right wingers are clueless when they keep repeating the assertion that income tax cuts stimulate the economy and are not the cause of economic bubbles and the recession that follows them

Ireland lowered its corporate taxes, but kept personal income taxes very high, along with large amounts of social spending. This created their "Celtic Tiger" economy

There is NO evidence at all that when you lower the top marginal rates, that people will take the personal income that they are now able to take OUT of a buisess and REINVEST it back into it,

What the point, if you create high taxes if they take it out of the business, but do not tax a red cent of it if they keep it IN the business, what is the point of lowering the top marginal rate to begin with.

The assertion that lowering taxes will somehow allow those at the top end to "invest more of their income in their businesses" is a logical absurdity, that simply sounds nice on the surface.

What lowering the marginal tax rate is all about is allowing those who have a lot of excess cash to move money from the "real economy" which is where a person starts a business, grows it, and consumers purchase their products or services, and so on. This is the "Main Street' market.

When those at the top of the economic pile can take money out of a business venture because personal income rates are low, once they have bought all the toys they can play with, they start looking for a place to invest what is left, and they either go to the stock market, some hot sector, which heats that sector even more, which leads to an economic bubble because invariably there is nothing real to justify a 400 dollar per share value for some dot.com company, or nothing but speculation to justify the value of the Mortgage Backed Security.

Sooner or later you get a casino stock market or real estate securities market and you get a crash.

The years of the greatest wealth creation and sustained growth in the United States has coincided with the highest marginal tax rates on personal income. Between 1950 and 1975 there was a steady 3-4 percent growth of the economy per year, the middle class was created, and there was NO business cycle at all.
Keynesian economics at its best.

Every reduction of the top marginal rate was followed by a rush to the stock market or real estate markets, followed by a bubble, followed by a recession or depression.

Even Milton Friedman abandoned his failed theory before he died.

Right wingers are clueless when they keep repeating the assertion that income tax cuts stimulate the economy and are not the cause of economic bubbles and the recession that follows them

Ireland lowered its corporate taxes, but kept personal income taxes very high, along with large amounts of social spending. This created their "Celtic Tiger" economy

There is NO evidence at all that when you lower the top marginal rates, that people will take the personal income that they are now able to take OUT of a buisess and REINVEST it back into it,

What the point, if you create high taxes if they take it out of the business, but do not tax a red cent of it if they keep it IN the business, what is the point of lowering the top marginal rate to begin with.

The assertion that lowering taxes will somehow allow those at the top end to "invest more of their income in their businesses" is a logical absurdity, that simply sounds nice on the surface.

What lowering the marginal tax rate is all about is allowing those who have a lot of excess cash to move money from the "real economy" which is where a person starts a business, grows it, and consumers purchase their products or services, and so on. This is the "Main Street' market.

When those at the top of the economic pile can take money out of a business venture because personal income rates are low, once they have bought all the toys they can play with, they start looking for a place to invest what is left, and they either go to the stock market, some hot sector, which heats that sector even more, which leads to an economic bubble because invariably there is nothing real to justify a 400 dollar per share value for some dot.com company, or nothing but speculation to justify the value of the Mortgage Backed Security.

Sooner or later you get a casino stock market or real estate securities market and you get a crash.

The years of the greatest wealth creation and sustained growth in the United States has coincided with the highest marginal tax rates on personal income. Between 1950 and 1975 there was a steady 3-4 percent growth of the economy per year, the middle class was created, and there was NO business cycle at all.
Keynesian economics at its best.

Every reduction of the top marginal rate was followed by a rush to the stock market or real estate markets, followed by a bubble, followed by a recession or depression.

Even Milton Friedman abandoned his failed theory before he died.

And lets hope Obamas stimulus plan give better benefits to people who have worked at McDonalds for 4.5 years. (thats a dig on Obamas town hall the other night if you havent seen it, google it). Not knocking the career McDonalds employees seeking management positions, I have a friend who is just that and gets a good wage and good benefits.

N.J. 10 points

CMorris 8 points

Trickle Down Terry -5 points

John D -20 points

"Tax cuts are not a primary job creator in this situation."
Posted by: rupert | February 11, 2009 8:34 AM
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1) I never said they are.
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2) And you have never addressed my principle point -- that is, that not ALL government spending is automatically stimulating (some can be) and yes, there is some pork in this bill. Your claim that I have "exaggerated" how much is based upon what, exactly?
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3) All of the polling (including your favored sources) shows public support for this bill being marginal at best. Around 50% isn't overwhelming support by the standards of reasonable people. Again, that is a moot point anyway, but apparently you've chosen to cling to it because you can't argue for the bill.

Mike G.
1. We have been a socialist/capitalist hybrid since the Teddy R. admin.
2. Europe is full of scientists, techies, medical research institutes and achievers of all sorts. I've met many of them. Your posit is silly on the face of it.
3. No military? Let me clue you in; We are ready to implode and will have to make some tuff choices re. the military. When the Feds. monetize the whole national debt because nobody will buy our paper you may not look at those 11 carrier battle groups with such love.
4. If you are working 70 hours a week to climb the corporate ladder I pity you. Talk about a lady with the heart of a prostitute.
5. That was some reward for my decades of hard luck in my 401k statement. -40%.
6. Were you a Young Republican?

MJ you were the one who first suggested Americans don't support the bill; I generally don't bring up polls, but this was in response to you.

As for your so-called principle point, you seem to change your principle point with each post. So I have no idea what it is. It's rather elementary that not ALL spending is stimulus.

Posted by: rupert | February 11, 2009 3:34 PM
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OK, one more time: First read and comprehend comments, then respond to them. Don't try to guess at what is written and then try to refute the guess. You'll save yourself some embarrassment that way.

Nice sarcasm, MJ.
Try reading your own multiple posts and find one central point. Something like some spending is good and some is bad. Waste is bad. Heavy stuff.

"rupert",
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Throughout this exchange, you have "responded" to things I never (ever) said, and ignored the things I've actually said; that is until your last post when you made a sad attempt at wit.
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Do you have a point, son? Or are you just one more obsessed troll?
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I'm done wasting my time with you.

As I recall, MJ, we were trying to figure out your point, boy. Apparently you never had one.