by Mark Silva
As the debate over "water-boarding'' and other means of torture gets underway in the 111th Congress - with Democratic leaders calling for a truth-squad inquiry into interrogation practices permitted by the Bush Justice Department, a certain librarian friend of ours points us to words that were spread upon the journal of the 57th Congress.
A soldier had been convicted in 1903 of using the "water cure'' during the Philippine Insurrection. He was suspended and fined for three months.
The prisoner apparently died - which also carries the debate to a different level. And this soldier wasn't acting with the legal-memo support of the Justice Department.
The soldier, "charged with the custody of all important prisoner of war, did, of his own motion and without the knowledge or sanction of his military superior... administer a form of torture known as the" water cure" to a prisoner entrusted to him for safe-keeping, and that as a result of such admin¬istration the prisoner died, that he obtained incriminating evidence tending to show that the deceased had taken an important part in the insurrectionary ...against the authority of the United States,'' the record shows.
The rule of international law "places limitation upon the kind and amount of force which may be used in the prosecution of military operations,'' as noted in the General Orders, No. 100, of the Adjutant-General's Office:
"Military necessity does not admit of cruelty -- that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions... This view is fully supported by text writers of authority:
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not, as one of the articles of our instructions for the government of armies states, cease on that account to be human beings, responsible to one another and to God. The laws of war do not recognize in belligerents an unlimited liberty as to the means of injuring the enemy. Belligerents are expected to avoid all needless severity and all perfidious, unjust, or tyrannical acts.''
Today, the interrogators have the Army Field Manual as their guide, and the Geneva Conventions. And President Barack Obama, who has banned the practices permitted by the Bush administration, is requiring everyone to follow the book..
Comments
No one does hypocrisy better than the Repuglicans. They're embracing the broadly condemned and immoral act of government sponsored torture, while, often in the same sentence, predicting the end of the world due to government plans guaranteeing that Americans will be able to afford healthcare. Somehow, irrational fear wins the day with the Repugs once again over a very rational desire to be treated for an illness without, you know, going broke.
Without explanation or logic, and following months of screeching about tea parties and tyranny and big government, the usual suspects on the right appear to be demanding that the government retain the power to do anything -- anything! -- in order to protect us from a terrorist attack. In the minds of the rightwing knuckle-draggers this, naturally, includes torture....but, god forbid, not healthcare.
Posted by: Dekalb | April 23, 2009 3:23 PM
What is obvious is that if the tables had been turned, this 7th-century savage KSM would have been chopping our heads off while making a video of it.
Irresponsible grandstanding on the left is to be ignored, these people don’t know -or don’t want to know- what it takes to keep America safe... nor do they understand the nature of the enemy, apparently.
And waterboarding is not a near-drowning technique- the subject is never in danger of drowning. Water boarding is not torture- there is no physical harm to the subject.
Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed is a BAD guy, wouldn’t talk, and was taunting US interrogators with “you’ll see”… so they obtained valuable info from him using this technique, which we now find-out prevented a 9/11-scale attack on Los Angeles. Who cares how many times it took?
It was up to him how long before he decided to cooperate, didn’t have to be this way- looks like he clung stubbornly to a bad decision- sounds like something he'd do.
http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com
Posted by: Reaganite Republican Resistance | April 23, 2009 3:46 PM
"Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we - not our enemies - occupy the moral high ground."
Posted by: General Petraeus | April 23, 2009 3:55 PM
What is obvious is that if the tables had been turned, this 7th-century savage KSM would have been chopping our heads off while making a video of it.
Posted by: Reaganite Republican Resistance | April 23, 2009 3:46 PM
.
That's because they are TERRORISTS and that's exactly why we DON'T act like they do, you moron.
Posted by: Reagan was a Fraud and a Failure | April 23, 2009 4:07 PM
nor do they understand the nature of the enemy, apparently.
Posted by: Reaganite Republican Resistance | April 23, 2009 3:46 PM
Oh tell us "intune" one. Has McCain figured out who's who in Iraq yet? Have we been greeted as liberators yet? Are they in their "last throes"? Cheney in the 90s knew it was not smart to invade Iraq....I guess his understanding of the "nature of the enemy" missed by that much. Guess Bush/Cheney had Afghanistan figured out...great call there...and Pakistan....great job..billions to Pakistan and it is now under attack. With leaders like that...who needs enimas?
Posted by: bill r. | April 23, 2009 4:16 PM
I'm going to give you radical islamic terrorists a choice;
You make the choice:
cut fingers off (1 by 1), or waterboarding.
cut toes off (1 by 1), or waterboarding.
cut tongue out, or waterboarding.
burn your eye's out, or waterboarding.
cut your ears off (1 by 1), or waterboarding.
get baseball bated, or waterboarding.
have your throat cut and bleed out, or waterboarding.
In my personal view I believe that kinda puts a different perspective on waterboarding. Which would you take,? I'm up for waterboarding.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 4:26 PM
PS: I'm not saying we should do all those horrible things, I'm making a comparison to real physical torture, and waterboarding.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 4:34 PM
The morons keep forgetting.... if you want to punish them, try them first and punish them according to law. If you're trying to get "intelligence" from them, it's the wrong time for punishment; that's interrogation. Putting bullets in their heads, as PG has suggested, or cutting the heads off, as others have suggested, won't yield much in the way of useful intelligence.
Posted by: gord | April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
Posted by: gord | April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
---------- This is the problem with internet dialogue, please quote me where I said "Putting bullets in their heads, as PG has suggested".
I guess if you say the lie long enough people will believe it. I was comparing waterboarding to other choices. No death. Next time read the posts.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 5:46 PM
PG, by your logic then, what happened to John McCain was OK, because they could have done much worse to him. He was beaten, and tied, but they didn't burn his eyes out or cut off fingers, so what's the big deal, right?
You're sliding down a slippery slope friend. Is electric shock ok? How about pulling off finger nails? Breaking fingers? How about starving?
Posted by: Marcus | April 23, 2009 6:02 PM
Posted by: Marcus | April 23, 2009 6:02 PM
No, I'm not saying any of that, I'm saying "I" don't believe waterboarding is torture.
Thank you for making my point, with more examples, I will take waterboarding over any of the examples given anytime. Wouldn't you?
Folks please read and understand the posts before replying.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 6:14 PM
PG, just because something else is worse doesn't mean that waterboarding isn't torture. Ask yourself this: If you are accused of a crime, should the cops be allowed to waterboard you to get a confession? I mean, it's better than chopping off your fingers, and you claim it's not torture, so why not let the cops do it? If the cops think your kid might know something about a friend planning a Columbine type incident, should they be allowed to waterboard the information out of him, in the interest of public safety?
Posted by: Marcus | April 23, 2009 6:37 PM
PG, you said it yesterday. Your post today is just as bad. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted by: gord | April 23, 2009 6:38 PM
Here's one for starters, PG, you tough guy.
"I don't sympathize with these killers. Give them a gun, drop them in an active combat zone, maybe even give them a bullet."
Posted by: PG | April 21, 2009 7:58 PM"
Posted by: gord | April 23, 2009 6:54 PM
No, I'm not saying any of that, I'm saying "I" don't believe waterboarding is torture.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 6:14 PM
.
I just love the chickenhawk Repugs (see above) and their arm chair tough guy talk.
I'd be more than happy to hire some people to have it done to you, tough guy. You'd be screaming for mommy in less than 5 seconds.
What's your phone number?
Posted by: huh? | April 23, 2009 6:56 PM
"No, I'm not saying any of that, I'm saying "I" don't believe waterboarding is torture. "Posted by: PG
So PG, why is it illegal? Why is it prohibited by the Geneva Convention? Why has the US prosecuted others for waterboarding American soldiers? Have you ever been waterboarded, or are you just smarter than everyone else?
Posted by: rupert | April 23, 2009 7:19 PM
Wow, you do get upset don't you.
I guess you all should ask Speaker Pelosi.
"Putting bullets in their heads", is not the same as, "I don't sympathize with these killers. Give them a gun, drop them in an active combat zone, maybe even give them a bullet." And that was about what to do with the terrorists after the closing of Gitmo, not waterboarding. And why I said it that way was no-one running the Govt' knows what to do with these killers.
Posted by: PG | April 23, 2009 10:39 PM
Perhaps you could tell your readers what water cure is?
Posted by: Noelene | April 24, 2009 3:48 AM
I guess that's what they call a distinction without a difference, PG.
Posted by: gord | April 24, 2009 10:39 AM
Intelligence gathering should be done with JUST THAT, INTELLIGENCE!!
Anytime we use any physical actions against another human being, whether you consider it torture or not, brings our tactics closer to that of the very terrorists we are condemning. And flies completely in the face of the values we should adhere to as Americans.
Posted by: Steve34 | April 24, 2009 2:04 PM