by Greg Miller
In the bitter debate over the nation's counterterrorism policies, former Vice President Dick Cheney has introduced an assertion that substantially raises the stakes.
Twice in the past two weeks -- including a speech Thursday -- Cheney has said that the Bush administration's approach saved "perhaps hundreds of thousands" of lives.
It is a claim that goes beyond anything Cheney or former President George W. Bush said while in office, crediting their approach with preventing casualties on a scale the United States has not seen since World War II.
But terrorism experts said that while it is possible to envision scenarios that involve casualties of that magnitude, no evidence has emerged about the plots disrupted during the Bush administration to support Cheney's claim.
"It's an easy thing to say and a difficult thing to prove," said Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert at Georgetown University. "I think it's another broadside in this ongoing feud."
Cheney first used the language during a May 10 appearance on CBS' Face the Nation. "I'm convinced, absolutely convinced that we saved thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives," Cheney said.
Cheney's assertion is "plausible" if he is referring to concerns that al-Qaida had ambitions of acquiring a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon, said Gary J. Schmitt, an intelligence expert at the American Enterprise Institute, where Cheney delivered his speech on Thursday.
"Because they disrupted the leadership of al-Qaida," Schmitt said, Cheney can reasonably argue that "they were able in some larger sense to preclude a (weapons of mass destruction) attack in the years ahead."
But in his second reference to six-figure casualties, Cheney went further, saying those lives were saved as a direct result of the CIA's use of waterboarding and other so-called "enhanced" interrogation methods.
"The intelligence officers who questioned the terrorists can be proud of their work, proud of the results," Cheney said in his Thursday speech, "because they prevented the violent deaths of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of people."
That assertion is more difficult to support, experts said, because there is no evidence that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or other al-Qaida suspects formerly in CIA custody yielded intelligence on plots involving nuclear or other mass-casualty weapons.
Last year, then-President George W. Bush listed a series of plots that had been thwarted during his administration. Among them were plans to blow up fuel tanks at a New York airport, a plot to blow up airliners bound for the East Coast, and a scheme to destroy the Library Tower skyscraper in Los Angeles.
Al-Qaida's efforts to produce anthrax at laboratories in Afghanistan were derailed by the U.S. invasion in 2001. The terrorist network's plots involving illicit weapons have so far been unsuccessful and small in scale.
After his arrest in Chicago in 2002, Jose Padilla was accused of plotting to detonate a radiological bomb, a device that uses a conventional explosive to spread contaminating debris. He was ultimately convicted of aiding terrorists; the bomb charge was dropped.
In perhaps the most advanced terror plot involving unconventional weapons, Kamal Bourgass was accused in 2003 of making the poison ricin in a London apartment. Authorities found recipes but no actual ricin, however, and Bourgass was convicted of plotting "to cause a public nuisance."
"No matter how you slice this, it's very hard to get to the hundred thousand figure unless al-Qaida had a nuclear weapon," Hoffman said. "Which they didn't."
Cheney's transition office did not respond to a request for comment.
President Barack Obama has also made assertions in the counterterrorism debate that are difficult to assess. In making the case to close the Guantanamo Bay detention facility on Thursday, Obama said that the island prison had "likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained."
But "nobody knows that for a fact," Schmitt said. "That is the reason why this is such a hard debate in some ways, because until one actually sees the intelligence they're sitting on it's virtually impossible to make a judgment that what either Obama or Cheney is saying is spot on."
Comments
And the truth is out there?
Posted by: lochnessmonster | May 23, 2009 7:04 PM
Cheney will just keep on making claims no one can refute-----
unless there is a Truth Commission. With a broad commission.
The fact that he and Libby leaked national security information when it suited them, notably the identy of Ms. Plame as a covert CIA agent, tells me there are no real intelligence coups attributable to "enhanced interrogation".
Because if there were, he would have leaked them prior to Jan. 20, 09.
Wouldn't he?
Posted by: ornery | May 23, 2009 9:28 PM
Most of Darth's comments are impossible to back up, but he still tells them and the simple minds still believe them.
Posted by: Xcellentform | May 23, 2009 11:20 PM
Dick Cheney thinks he and George W. were doing "God's will."
He talks of the "hundreds of thousands of lives that were saved," and not of the hundreds of thousands of lives THAT WERE ACTUALLY LOST OR TERRIBLY MAIMED!
As long as it's "them" that die it's OK in Dick's book. Don't work out the problems via the United Nations. Just get out the weapons of mass destruction and start firing. . ;
Be John Wayne. . . you're a legend in your own mind.
But don't forget one thing Dick.
Those people you've been maiming and killing all these years have family members whose hearts have been torn apart and now they're blaming everything on America instead of actually seeing that it wasn't the U.S. that killed their wives and children, it was PuppetMaster Dick Cheney and his greatest puppet. . . George W.
Posted by: Steve Raymond | May 23, 2009 11:36 PM
The Vice-President would have liked to have kept a lot of things secret until Bp decided and then undecided about releasing the pictures. At that point, it makes perfect sense to tell the whole story. These are the enhanced interorrgation techniques that were used and this is the information that was obtained by doing that to these three, adn only three, terrorists.
Posted by: Terry | May 24, 2009 7:03 AM
Geezz, why continue to attack Cheney with ignorant liberal ridicule when Mr. Transparency could just release the memos and let the folks decide. What we have is just another political blunder the WH and the Dems cooked up to embarrass Bush and Cheney, which backfired into revealing their folly, complicity, and hypocrisy. Now, caught with their pants down and their a**es hanging exposed, they are stonewalling and obfuscating, hoping the whole mess will fade away. Polls reveal most Americans support Cheney. He has spoken with such clarity and factual honesty that libs , the MSM, and the lefty herd taking heads have no counter argument other than personal character ridicule and obtuse stories like this one. Why not just scream; declassify the memos! Otherwise, your just appear as Nixon type retreads.
Posted by: bubba Porter | May 24, 2009 7:34 AM
"Cheney will just keep on making claims no one can refute----- unless there is a Truth Commission. With a broad commission."
Bring it on! Why won't BHO release the memo's that Cheney says prove his assertions? Maybe it will embarrass the Dem leadership, most notably Madam Speaker, by exposing them as in agreement with Bush/Cheney policies at the time?
"The fact that he and Libby leaked national security information when it suited them, notably the identy of Ms. Plame as a covert CIA agent"
Richard Armitage has admitted to being the leaker of the identity of the so-called covert CIA agent Valerie Plame - not Cheney or Libby
"Because if there were, he would have leaked them prior to Jan. 20, 09. Wouldn't he?"
Maybe Mr. Cheney had a more respect for classified information, classified information and his oath of office than you give him credit for Ornery.
Posted by: katie | May 24, 2009 8:32 AM
The only reason no evidence has emerged is that Obama refuses to declassify the additional CIA memos that Cheney requested. Those memos describe what the CIA learned from the use of EITs.
If Cheney is bluffing, then the President can call his bluff with a single signature.
Posted by: mwl | May 24, 2009 8:50 AM
Now why would Cheney go out and "humiliate" himself when he knows that Obama could release information to the public to prove Cheney wrong.
Cheney wouldn't do it. All Obama has to do is release informaiton. All congress and their aides (why are these piddlings able to see/hear "classified" information?!-no wonder things get leaked!) is release information.
The information is there to be seen and read by those who have access. Perhaps, Clinton's guy, Sandy Berger, can go in and steal information like he once did.
Obama's backis to the wall, as is Pelosi's if they want to really nail Cheney they would release documents proving Cheney wrong and but all that happens are these "stories" manufactured by the press.
Think Cheney is accurate and Obama drowned out by Pelosi has been wide-eyed by Cheney's speech.
Democrats are covering up. With just a wave of her hand Pelosi tries to silence the reporters and Obama drops stories.
Just release info and let the people decide, not these so-called reporters.
Posted by: Bill | May 24, 2009 9:05 AM
Hey ORNERY...Cheney and Libby had NO PART in leaking Lame Plame, it was RICHARD Armitage 100%. He admitted it. Look it up. There is a way to know who's telling the truth, Dear Leader OBOZO could release the memos requested by Cheney. But, Obozo has already denied the release of the interrogation memos...gee, I wonder why?? Maybe those records DO SHOW that enhanced interrogation WORKS?? Just release the memos!!
The Kenyan born marxist, Obozo the Klown, is in over his head and Soros is the Real President.
Posted by: Lambert | May 24, 2009 9:27 AM
Um, why was Scooter Libby convicted?
Amitage was an operative in whose administration?
Who told his underlings to attack Wilson (Plame's husband) when he published an op-ed about "what I didn't find in Niger"?
That was Cheney and underlings included Scooter.
Posted by: ornery | May 24, 2009 11:02 AM
No amount of childish name-calling can refute the fact that the Bush-Cheney legacy was put to the voters and they overwhelmingly rejected it.
Mr. Cheney forgets he was in power before 9-11 when so-called intelligence agencies had information that a terrorist plot was in the works. In fact a memo to that effect was on Bush's desk. If the Bush-Cheney regime had done its job then, thousands of real lives could have been saved.
Posted by: Harry Farkas | May 24, 2009 12:07 PM
Simple answer for Obama: release the information Cheney asked for.
Obama can't because it would show Cheney was correct.
Obama hides.
And if Obama places terrorists in America, that will allow terrorists to target a certain area in and around the jail.
Don't listen to Obama...read what he says. Then you won't be swayed by his so called - because he can't do extemporaneously- speeches.
Posted by: Hilda | May 24, 2009 2:33 PM
How can you trust anything CIA "releases" on its own?
This is the same CIA that gave Powell the "intelligence" that persuaded him to make that UN speech in Feb.03 where weather balloon trailers were transmogrified into "mobile weapons labs"?
Even a sophisitcated consumer of intelligence like Powell fell for their fakery, at least for a while.
Posted by: ornery | May 24, 2009 4:52 PM
"Polls reveal most Americans support Cheney." Posted by: bubba Porter
Really bubba? Where'd you get that? BabyDick Liz Cheney? Glenn Beck?
Posted by: Flo | May 24, 2009 7:17 PM
Flo, I stand by my words. Pelosi high-tailed it to China to be briefed on their EIT and offer them a few good terrorists. Oh, by the way, are you ready for your middle class tax hike to pay for all this deficit spending (they dropped the tax cut for the 95% next year) and how about your man repackaging and using most of Bushie's anti-terror strategies that he trashed to get elected. Watch as Gitmo survives. Do you feel like the bus has hit yet or does it have to back over you too. Have a great Memorial Day and hug a vet!
Posted by: bubba Porter | May 25, 2009 5:32 AM
"Most of Darth's comments are impossible to back up, but he still tells them and the simple minds still believe them." Just Like Obama's comments about closing Gitmo and terrorists.
Posted by: Bushwacker | May 25, 2009 12:47 PM
Don't, bubba, believe everything you hear on Fox. You're sounding more and more like a parrot of propaganda. Sorry to say my favorite vet is in the ground; but I'll find some and take your advice.
Posted by: Flo | May 25, 2009 2:29 PM
To all you idiots pugs posting above: Obama said that he was not interested in muddling in the past pug attrocities, so that is why he is not releasing memos at this point. He truly wants to keep his promise of leading from the center and include the pugs, no matter how many times they stab him in the back. Myself, I think he has the power to put the deathnail in this backwater pug party by releasing memos on numerous subjects, and I hope he does. Funk trying to work with the pugs, they certainly have said the same about him durring the first 2 weeks of his presidency.
Posted by: Xcellentform | May 26, 2009 9:31 AM
I don't even watch Fox News, but I can tell by the above posts that the talking points must be "Obama needs to release the information". Nice red herring....There is no information to prove that enhanced intero.....torture worked. Cheney is a confirmed liar and I hope all the "information" he is clamoring for will be released at his trial.
Posted by: Tim | May 26, 2009 9:42 AM