Hillary Clinton: 'Digging out... deep holes'

by Mark Silva

Hillary Rodham Clinton, "chief diplomat for the United States of America,'' maintains that North Korea's provocative missile launches demand "very strong action,'' and says flatly that the United States would be forced to respond if Iran were to launch a nuclear attack against Israel.

"I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that were Israel to suffer a nuclear attack by Iran, there would be retaliation,'' Clinton said in an appearance today on ABC News' This Week with George Stephanopoulos, who interviewed the secretary of state and former first lady during her trip to Cairo with President Barack Obama.

Clinton was asked if Obama has answered the question that she raised about him during the Democratic presidential primaries last year about his ability to handle the crisi of a "3 am phone call.''

."Absolutely,'' she said. "And, you know, the president in his public actions and demeanor, and certainly in private with me and with the national security team, has been strong, thoughtful, decisive, I think he is doing a terrific job, and it's an honor to serve with him."

Asked how Obama convinced her to join his Cabinet, Clinton said:
"Utimately it came down to my feeling that, No. 1, when your president asks you to do something for your country, you really need a good reason not to do it. No. 2, if I had won and I had asked him to please help me serve our country, I would have hoped he would say yes. And finally, I looked around our world and I thought, you know, we are in just so many deep holes that everybody had better grab a shovel and start digging out."

Here, courtesy of ABC News, is a transcript of the Clinton interview:

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president has a very high-powered team, Vice President Biden,

General Jones, Secretary Gates.

You've got envoys for Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea. How do you fit in?

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: Well, I...

STEPHANOPOULOS: What is your role, exactly?

CLINTON: Well, my role is as the chief diplomat for the United States of

America. And, you know, when I agreed to do this job, I made it very

clear to the president that I would be able to run the State Department

and USAID, and that we would have to forge a team that I think we've

done very well.

And that I wanted special envoys, because we were inheriting so many

hotspot problems that I knew you could never have one person possibly

address all of that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It also gives you the ability to get out of the crisis

management and carve out areas where you're really going to take

initiative. What are those?

CLINTON: Well, I'm having to do both. I mean, I spend a lot of my time

on the problems that you would imagine, Afghanistan and Pakistan, the

Middle East, Iran. But I'm also working to create a strategic set of

priorities that will guide our efforts.

So for example, there are specific regional and country-based endeavors

that we are teeing up. We are going to work really hard on our

relationships with, for example, Indonesia and Turkey and India.

We have a strategic and economic dialogue that will start the last week

in July with China that Secretary Geithner and I are going to co-lead.

I mean, we...

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: Plenty of work to go around.

CLINTON: There is plenty of work to go around. But then there are

transnational problems. I mean, the president asked me to lead the

effort on food security.

The president also wants us to focus on Haiti. And ironically the United

Nations...

STEPHANOPOULOS: The -- you know, President Clinton...

CLINTON: ... secretary-general asked Bill to be the special envoy. So

we're really going to have a united effort by our government and by the

international community.

those are just some of the, you know, very specific and more general

challenges that we are taking on and managing.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You're also developing a reputation for blunt talk as

secretary. You talked about Pakistan abdicating its responsibilities,

about the idea that (INAUDIBLE) negotiation with North Korea is

implausible.

And especially on this issue of settlements with Israel, you were very

strong last week, so was the president.

HRC 5/27/09: HE WANTS TO SEE A STOP TO SETTLEMENTS, NOT - SOME SETTLEMENTS,

NOT OUTPOSTS, NOT NATURAL GROWTHS EXCEPTIONS.

And I don't know if you've seen the headlines in Israel, headlines talking about the American threat.

Publicly the prime minister is saying that this is just unreasonable,

these demands from the United States. And privately he was reported to

have said, and this is a quote: "What the hell do they want from me?"

CLINTON: Well, George, I think it's very clear, as you heard in the

speech from the president here in Cairo, that he wants to focus from the

very beginning of his term in office on doing everything he can to try

to bring the Israelis and the Palestinians together.

We were very close in 2000. And it's heartbreaking to see where we are

today. And we can't just stand by and expect time to work its magic. So

that means, as the president said in his speech, and as he has said on

several other occasions prior to it, that we have to do our very best to

reassure Israel, to demonstrate our commitment to Israel's security,

that the bonds we have are unshakeable and durable.

But we do have a view about Israel's security. We see historical,

demographic, political, technological trends that are very troubling as

to Israel's future. At the same time, there is a legitimate aspiration

of the Palestinian people that needs to be addressed.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So is there any room for compromise on the settlements

issue?

CLINTON: Well, I don't think we want to pre-judge the effort. I think

that if you look back, certainly from my perspective, every Israeli

leader that I have personally known and others who I have looked at

through an historical lens, has come to the same conclusion.

Who would have predicted the Ariel Sharon or Ehud Olmert would have

reached the conclusion they reached about what was in Israel's best

interest. Who would have predicted that even Prime Minister Netanyahu,

in his earlier term, during the 1990s, would have made some of the

decisions he made.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But his team says now that if you continue to push this,

it's going to bring down his government.

CLINTON: We are setting forth our views. Obviously decisions about how

to go forward are up to the Israelis and the Palestinians. But I think

it is an appropriate role for the United States, and certainly it is

what the president has decided, to make clear some of the obstacles he sees.

Now remember, the Israelis made a commitment in the road map in the

prior administration --

STEPHANOPOULOS: But they say that includes an understanding for natural

growth inside the settlement.

CLINTON: Well, that was an understanding that was entered into so far as

we are told, orally. That was never made a part of the official record

of the negotiations, as it was passed on to our administration. No one

in the Bush administration said to anyone that we can find in our

administration --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Not only Elliot Abrams? You wrote about that.

CLINTON: Nobody in a position of authority at the time that the Obama

administration came into office said anything about it. And in fact,

there is also a record that President Bush contradicted even that oral

agreement.

But, the fact is that the road map which was agreed to officially,

adopted by the Israeli government said something very clear about

settlements.

So, I think that what the president is doing is saying, look, everybody

should comply with the obligations you've already committed to. And for

the Palestinians, let's not forget. They must end incitement against

Israel. They must demonstrate an ability to provide security.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what I wanted to ask you about.

OBAMA 5/28/09: IT IS A GREAT PLEASURE TO WELCOME PRESIDENT ABBAS...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Abbas was in Washington, last week, He had an interview in the

"Washington Post" where he sure seemed to suggest that he doesn't have

to do anything right now.

CLINTON: Well, I think you're seeing public positions taken, which is

understandable in a process like this. But, we've made it very clear to

President Abbas, what we expect from him, as well.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How about Iran? You reported in the papers back in

March, when you met with the Foreign Minister of the UAE that you were

skeptical of the possibility that diplomacy would work to stall or stop

Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Are you still that doubtful?

CLINTON: Well, I am someone who's going to wait and see.

I mean, I want to see what the president's engagement will bring. We

have a team of people who we have tasked to work on this. I think

there's an enormous amount of potential for change if the Iranians are

willing to --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, what do you think they want deep down? You know,

you read some of their public declarations by their supreme leader and

others saying that they consider nuclear weapons un-Islamic. Yet, they

continue to pursue the nuclear program.

CLINTON: But George, one of the values of engagement is we need to have

better information, and maybe about each other. Not just about a one-way

street of information.

The idea that we could have a diplomatic process with Iran means that

for the first time, we would actually be sitting at a table across from

Iranians authorized by the supreme leader to talk with us about a whole

range of issues. That gives us information and insight that we don't

have. Of course there's a contradiction because we don't have any really

clear sense as to what it is they are seeking.

Now, one of the things that you heard the president say is, you know, we

understand the legitimate right of nations to have access to peaceful,

nuclear energy. If that is at the core of what they want, there are ways

of accommodating that do not lead to a nuclear weapon.

So, we have to test that and we have to be willing to sit and listen and

evaluate without giving up what we view as a primary objective of the

engagement, which is to do everything we can to prevent Iran from

becoming a nuclear weapons state.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Your own envoy Dennis Ross has said one way to

strengthen the position the United States going into these negotiations

is to make it very clear that if Iran used nuclear weapons against

Israel or any U.S. ally, that would be met as an attack on the United

States -- full (ph) response.

Now, that was your position during the campaign, as well.

HRC DEBATE 4/16/08:I WOULD MAKE IT CLEAR TO THE IRANIANS THAT AN ATTACK ON ISRAEL WOULD

INCUR MASSIVE RETALIATION FROM THE UNITED STATES.

Is it U.S. policy now?

CLINTON: I think it is U.S. policy to the extent that we have alliances

and understandings with a number of nations. They may not be formal as

it is with NATO, but, I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind

that were Israel to suffer a nuclear attack by Iran, there would be

retaliation.

STEPHANOPOULOS: By the United States?

CLINTON: Well, I think there would be retaliation.

And I think part of what is clear is we want to avoid a Middle East arms

race which leads to nuclear weapons being in the possession of other

countries in the Middle East. And we want to make clear that there are

consequences and costs.

Now, let me just put it this way. If Iran is seeking security, if they

believe -- and you know, you have to put yourself into the shoes of the

other party when you negotiate -- if they believe that the United States

might attack them the way that we did attack Iraq, for example --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Before they attack, as a first strike.

CLINTON: That's right, as a first strike. Or, they might have some other

enemies that would do that to them. Part of what we have to make clear

to the Iranians is that their pursuit of nuclear weapons will actually

trigger greater insecurity because right now, many of the nations in the

neighborhood, as you know very well --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Because Israel (ph) will strike before they can finish.

CLINTON: Well, but not only that. I mean, other countries -- other Arab

countries are deeply concerned about Iran having nuclear weapons.

So, does Iran want to face a battery of nuclear weapons (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: (INAUDIBLE) other Arab nations to say that publically?

That was part of the president's theme today.

CLINTON: Well, you know, we've been there a little over four months. And

clearly a lot of what we're doing is teeing up our framework for

decision making.

We are aggressively pursuing diplomacy, not as an end in itself, but as

a means to try to resolve some of these outstanding and very difficult

problems. And we are asking a lot of people. I mean, there has been a

tremendous demand put on people around the world. I mean, I was at the

OAS and working with nations who had a very different view about Cuba,

than the United States. And basically setting forth a different approach.

We are trying to make clear that the United States is of course going to

pursue our interests in values. But, frankly, we believe there are ways

that we can make them consonant with the issues and values that are

important to others, as well.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, when I saw President Ahmadinejad last month,

he said the U.S. wasn't really walking the block (ph) here and he cited

the idea that President Obama never responded to his initial letter of

congratulations.

Why not?

CLINTON: Well, I think that President Obama has made very clear that he

is going to put forth an open hand. But not as part of an electoral ploy

or propaganda.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He had to let the elections play out.

CLINTON: I think just like in every country. There is a process that

takes place during an election. That will be over soon. And then we're

going to hope to get a positive process going.

STEPHANOPOULOS: With North Korea it seems like nothing has worked.

Engagement doesn't work, isolation doesn't work. They keep on pursuing

their nuclear ambitions. And the problem with North Korea is that

they've tried to sell every single weapon they've ever made.

CLINTON: Right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, what does that mean? How do we stop them now and

what happens if they try to sell nuclear material?

CLINTON: One of the positive developments, George, in the face of what

has been very provocative and belligerent behavior by the North Koreans

is that it has actually brought the members of -- six-party process --

Japan, South Korea, China, Russia, the United States, much closer

together in how we view --

STEPHANOPOULOS: No progress (ph) is going anywhere, is there?

CLINTON: Well, but I think what is going somewhere is additional

sanctions in the United Nations. Arms embargo, other measures taken

against North Korea with the full support of China and Russia.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Including enforcing past resolutions which gives the

U.N. the ability to board North Korean ships?

CLINTON: Well, we are working very hard to create a mechanism where we

can interdict North Korean shipments. Obviously some countries -- not

just the ones I named -- but others have some legitimate concerns about

setting precedent and alike.

But, we are working very hard. I've personally talked with all the

foreign ministers. Some of them many more times than just a couple.

We've been in very close communication. Obviously we're working closely

with our team in New York. We think we're going to come out of this with

a very strong resolution with (INAUDIBLE) that will have consequences

for the North Korean regime.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And what are the consequences if they try to ship

nuclear material elsewhere?

CLINTON: We will do everything we can to both interdict it and prevent

it and shut off their flow of money. if we do not take significant and

effective action against the North Koreans now, we'll spark an arms race

in Northeast Asia. I don't think anybody wants to see that. And so part of

what we're doing is again, sharing with other countries our calculus of the

risks and the dangers that would lie ahead if we don't take very strong action.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Several senators wrote the president a letter just the

other day that North Korea should go back on list of the states who

sponsor terrorism.

Will you do that?

CLINTON: Well, we're going to look at it. There's a process for it.

Obviously we would want to see recent evidence of their support for

international terrorism.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you have any?

CLINTON: Well, we're just beginning to look at it. I don't have an

answer for you right now.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Because the senators say they never stopped with these

actions.

CLINTON: Well, we -- you know, we take it very seriously. I mean,

obviously they were taken off of the list for a purpose and that purpose

is being thwarted by their actions.

STEPHANOPOULOS: On other issue on North Korea. The trial has begun for

the American journalists.

CLINTON: Right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And the families of the journalists have come out very

clearly and said, the only way this is going to be solved is if the

United States government gets involved directly.

Have you been involved directly in any way?

CLINTON: I have been. I have been involved directly in working with our

team as they have made approaches and requests for information through

the channels we use with North Korea.

The Swedish ambassador in Pyongyang is taking care of our interests

there. He has visited both young women I think, now three times, if I'm

not mistaken. I've met with the families. We have made it clear through

statements, both public and private that we view this as a humanitarian

issue --

STEPHANOPOULOS: We were told that you sent a letter saying that the

girls didn't mean -- the women didn't mean to go into North Korea, and

asking for their release.

CLINTON: I have taken every action that we thought would produce the

result we're looking for.

We think that the charges against these young women are absolutely

without merit or foundation. We hope the trial ends quickly, it's

resolved and they're sent home.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Have you gotten any hopeful signs back?

CLINTON: We have gotten some responses but we're not sure exactly who's

going to be making this decision and what the reasons for the eventual

decision are. So, we've been very careful in what we've said because

clearly we don't want this pulled into the political issues that we have

with North Korea, or the concerns that are being expressed in the United

Nations Security Council. This is separate. It is a humanitarian issue

and the girls should be let go.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It's an interesting point: you (INAUDIBLE) don't know

who is going to make this decision. Do you believe these reports that

Kim Jong-il has tapped his youngest son as his successor?

CLINTON: We obviously are following this very closely. We don't yet know

what the outcome of that...

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: What would that mean?

CLINTON: We don't know. I mean, we would have to wait and evaluate it,

the time of it, who might be essentially, you know, put in place to

supervise him, if he were the choice. We have to evaluate all of that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: This week is also the anniversary of -- the 20th

anniversary of the massacre at Tiananmen Square. And you put out a very

strong statement on that anniversary. Yet when you went to China earlier

this year, you basically said the Chinese know what we think about human

rights.

And I guess what I'm trying to get at is, how do you approach that

issue? When do public statements make a difference? When should

diplomacy be conducted privately? And who is your real audience with

these statements?

CLINTON: You know, George, it's such a great question. And there is no

one easy answer, because I think so much of it depends upon what our

objectives are. We have made very clear time and time again our concerns

about religious freedom in China, treatment of Tibet, Tibetan culture.

So that is -- we're on the record with that. We've had these, you know,

very strong statements that we've made historically, going back years,

and so of course we want everyone to know that we still feel very

strongly about it.

But we also would like to see if there is some way we could actually

chip away at Chinese resistance to providing some more, at least

cultural and religious autonomy for Tibetans.

So we -- it's a constant weighing process. You know, I think a lot of

times the public statements can turn out to be counterproductive. They

can harden positions. Yet at the same time, the public statements can

hearten those who are the dissidents.

So trying to keep that in balance so that we don't ever turn our backs

on those who are struggling for the very rights that we believe in so

strongly and that we think are universal rights, and yet looking for

ways that we can actually get results, not just score debating points

or, you know, have somebody say, good for you, you made a strong statement.

So what we're trying to do, and I think you hear it from what the

president and I have been saying over the last four months is to really

focus in on where we can make progress.

STEPHANOPOULOS: A year ago, you bowed out of the presidential campaign, very

graceful speech.

HRC 6/7/2008: LIFE IS TOO SHORT, TIME IS TOO PRECIOUS, AND THE STAKES ARE TOO HIGHT TO DWELL ON WHAT

MIGHT HAVE BEEN. WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER ON WHAT STILL CAN BE...

It was a bitter campaign. And I'm just wondering, how

did president Obama convince you to come on his team?

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: Well, you know, George, I never had any -- any dream, let alone

inkling that I would end up in President Obama's cabinet. When I left

the presidential race after getting some sleep and taking some deep

breaths, I immediately went to work for him in the general election.

I, you know, traveled the country. I worked hard on my supporters. I

made the case, which I believed strongly in making sure that we elected

him our president. And I was looking forward to going back to the Senate

and, frankly, going back to my life and representing New York, which I

love.

And I had no idea that he had a different plan in mind. So when...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Since the primaries.

CLINTON: Well, but I had -- I mean, that was certainly never expected.

And after the election, I started seeing little, you know, tidbits in

the press, I thought it was absurd. I thought, you know, this is the

kind of silly stuff that ends up in the press.

And then when he called and asked me to come see him, and we had our

first conversation, I said, you know, I really don't think I'm the

person to do this, I want to go back to my life. I really feel like I

owe it to the people of New York.

And I gave him a bunch of other names of people who I thought would be

great secretaries of state. But he was quite persistent and very

persuasive. And, you know, ultimately it came down to my feeling that,

number one, when your president asks you to do something for your

country, you really need a good reason not to do it.

Number two, if I had won and I had asked him to please help me serve our

country, I would have hoped he would say yes. And finally, I looked

around our world and I thought, you know, we are in just so many deep

holes that everybody had better grab a shovel and start digging out.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Final question. The Economist magazine said this week

that the question you raised in that famous "3 a.m." ad is right back in

the center of American politics.

AD: IT'S 3AM AND YOUR CHILDREN ARE SAFE AND ASLEEP. WHO DO YOU

WANT ANSWERING THE PHONE?

Has the president answered it for you?

CLINTON: Absolutely. And, you know, the president in his public actions

and demeanor, and certainly in private with me and with the national

security team, has been strong, thoughtful, decisive, I think he is

doing a terrific job. And it's an honor to serve with him.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Madam Secretary, thank you very much.

CLINTON: Thanks. Good to talk to you.

END