by Mark Silva and updated
The great health-care debate of August closes, from the vacationing president's perspective, with a White House attempt to dispell some of "the more outrageous myths'' that have built up around the health insurance overhaul the president is promoting.
It "should be an honest debate, not one dominated by willful misrepresentations and outright distortions, spread by the very folks who would benefit the most by keeping things exactly as they are,'' President Barack Obama said today, in his weekly Internet and radio address taped before he left for a week's vacation starting in Camp David this weekend and carrying him and his family to Martha's Vineyard on Sunday.
Rep. Tom Price, a Republican from Georgia and physician before he became a politician, delivers the GOP's weekly response today with a suggestion that "folks of every political persuasion understand the imperative of reform. But they want reform that. keeps what's good with our current system - and fixes what's not working - without destroying our quality of care.''
The president insists care will improve.
"Today,'' Obama says in his address, "I want to spend a few minutes debunking some of the more outrageous myths circulating on the internet, on cable TV, and repeated at some town halls across this country.''
So here, from the president, are the Top Three outrageous myths of the health-care debate that Congress and the White House will face when they all return to work in September (the recessed Congress will return after Labor Day.)
-- "The false claim that illegal immigrants will get health insurance under reform. That's not true.''
-- "The charge that reform will somehow bring about a government takeover of health care. I know that sounds scary to many folks. It sounds scary to me, too. But here's the thing: it's not true.''
--"The source of a lot of these fears about government-run health care is confusion over what's called the public option... it would be just an option; those who prefer their private insurer would be under no obligation to shift to a public plan.''
The president allows that "the insurance companies and their allies don't like this idea, or any that would promote greater competition. I get that,,'' he says. "But this one aspect of the health care debate shouldn't overshadow the other important steps we can and must take to reduce the increasing burdens families and businesses face..''
Price, however, asserts that the initiative the Democrats are promoting will put government in everyone's health care, and they won't like it.
"Having navigated federal health care programs for two decades,'' Price says today, "I can tell you that Washington is incapable of processing the personal and unique circumstances that patients and doctors face each and every day. That is why a positive solution will put power in the hands of patients, not insurance companies or the government.
" Unfortunately, the plan being promoted by the White House would give Washington the power to make highly personal medical decisions on behalf of patients - on behalf of you. ''
See the president's address above, the Republican response below, and read the texts of each below the fold:
This is the text of the president's address:
""Each and every day in this country, Americans are grappling with health care premiums that are growing three times the rate of wages and insurance company policies that limit coverage and raise out-of-pocket costs. Thousands are losing their insurance coverage each day.
Without real reform, the burdens on America's families and businesses will continue to multiply. We've had a vigorous debate about health insurance reform, and rightly so. This is an issue of vital concern to every American, and I'm glad that so many are engaged.
But it also should be an honest debate, not one dominated by willful misrepresentations and outright distortions, spread by the very folks who would benefit the most by keeping things exactly as they are.
So today, I want to spend a few minutes debunking some of the more outrageous myths circulating on the internet, on cable TV, and repeated at some town halls across this country.
Let's start with the false claim that illegal immigrants will get health insurance under reform. That's not true. Illegal immigrants would not be covered. That idea has never even been on the table. Some are also saying that coverage for abortions would be mandated under reform. Also false. When it comes to the current ban on using tax dollars for abortions, nothing will change under reform. And as every credible person who has looked into it has said, there are no so-called "death panels" - an offensive notion to me and to the American people. These are phony claims meant to divide us.
And we've all heard the charge that reform will somehow bring about a government takeover of health care. I know that sounds scary to many folks. It sounds scary to me, too. But here's the thing: it's not true. I no sooner want government to get between you and your doctor than I want insurance companies to make arbitrary decisions about what medical care is best for you, as they do today. As I've said from the beginning, under the reform we seek, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your private health insurance plan, you can keep your plan. Period.
Now, the source of a lot of these fears about government-run health care is confusion over what's called the public option. This is one idea among many to provide more competition and choice, especially in the many places around the country where just one insurer thoroughly dominates the marketplace. This alternative would have to operate as any other insurer, on the basis of the premiums it collects. And let me repeat - it would be just an option; those who prefer their private insurer would be under no obligation to shift to a public plan.
The insurance companies and their allies don't like this idea, or any that would promote greater competition. I get that. And I expect there will be a lot of discussion about it when Congress returns.
But this one aspect of the health care debate shouldn't overshadow the other important steps we can and must take to reduce the increasing burdens families and businesses face.
So let me stress them again: If you don't have insurance, you will finally have access to quality coverage you can afford. If you do have coverage, you will benefit from more security and more stability when it comes to your insurance. If you move, lose your job, or change jobs, you will not have to worry about losing health coverage. And we will set up tough consumer protections that will hold insurance companies accountable and stop them from exploiting you with unfair practices.
We'll prohibit insurance companies from denying coverage because of a person's medical history. They will not be able to drop your coverage if you get sick. They will not be able to water down your coverage when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. We'll place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because no one in America should go broke because they get sick.
And we will require insurance companies to cover routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies. There's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer on the front end. That makes sense, it saves lives, and it will also save money over the long-run. Taken together, the reforms we're seeking will help bring down skyrocketing costs, which will mean real savings for families, businesses, and government.
We know what a failure to act would bring: More of the same. More of the same exploding costs. More of the same diminished coverage. If we fail to act, the crisis will grow. More families will go without coverage. More businesses will be forced to drop or water down their plans.
So we can push off the day of reckoning and fail to deal with the flaws in the system, just as Washington has done, year after year, decade after decade. Or we can take steps that will provide every American family and business a measure of security and stability they lack today.
It has never been easy, moving this nation forward. There are always those who oppose it, and those who use fear to block change. But what has always distinguished America is that when all the arguments have been heard, and all the concerns have been voiced, and the time comes to do what must be done, we rise above our differences, grasp each others' hands, and march forward as one nation and one people, some of us Democrats, some of us Republicans, all of us Americans.
This is our chance to march forward. I cannot promise you that the reforms we seek will be perfect or make a difference overnight. But I can promise you this: if we pass health insurance reform, we will look back many years from now and say, this was the moment we summoned what's best in each of us to make life better for all of us. This was the moment when we built a health care system worthy of the nation and the people we love. This was the moment we earned our place alongside the greatest generations. And that is what our generation of Americans is called to do right now.'''
Here is the text of Rep. Tom Price's response:
"Hello, I'm Congressman Tom Price. And I have the privilege of representing the Sixth District of Georgia. (Just north of Atlanta) Before coming to Congress I was a physician, taking care of patients on the north side of Atlanta for more than 20 years.
Right now, Americans from coast to coast are debating the monumental task of reforming our health system. Folks of every political persuasion understand the imperative of reform. But they want reform that. keeps what's good with our current system - and fixes what's not working - without destroying our quality of care.
The status quo in American health care is clearly unacceptable. Rising costs, shrinking access, and third-party decision making are driving patients away from their doctors and the desired care that they seek. The challenge, however, is providing Americans more accessible and affordable care without impairing the quality, innovation, and choices that define American medicine. And this is simply impossible with the one-size-fits-all approach taken by the President and Democrats in charge of Congress.
Experience tells me that as a doctor, no two patients are exactly alike. While the same diagnosis can be reached for two people, the proper treatment for each may be completely different, based on a countless number of factors that only a patient, their family and a caring and compassionate physician truly understand.
Having navigated federal health care programs for two decades, I can tell you that Washington is incapable of processing the personal and unique circumstances that patients and doctors face each and every day. That is why a positive solution will put power in the hands of patients, not insurance companies or the government.
Unfortunately, the plan being promoted by the White House would give Washington the power to make highly personal medical decisions on behalf of patients - on behalf of you.
Now whether it's the government choosing what should be in your family's health care plan, or a bureaucratic board deciding what treatments are appropriate and who should receive them, the President's plan is a 1,000-page expression supporting the notion that Washington knows best when it comes to your family's health care. And that's simply not true.
As opposition to the Democrats' government-run health plan is mounting, the President has said he'd like to stamp out some of the disinformation floating around out there.
On the stump, the President regularly tells Americans that 'if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.' But if you read the bill, that just isn't so. For starters, within five years, every health care plan will have to meet a new federal definition for coverage - one that your current plan might not match, even if you like it.
What's more, experts agree that under the House bill, millions of Americans will be forced off their personal, private coverage and shuffled onto the government plan.
Now the President has also said that he thinks the government should compete with your current health care plan. But we all know that when the government is setting the rules and is backed by tax dollars, it will destroy - not compete with - the private sector. The reality is, whether or not you get to keep your plan, or your doctor, is very much in question under the President's proposal.
But perhaps the most striking misinformation the President has put forth is that there are only two options out there for America - that it's his way or the highway. That it's either the government running the show - or insurance companies. The truth is there is a third way - a better way, a patient-centered way to reform health care.
Rather than allowing insurance companies or the government to call the shots, Republicans want to put patients in charge of their family's health care. We have plans to increase coverage and lower costs without putting a bureaucrat between you and your doctor. We believe that what's good for patients is good for American health care.
If anything has been learned from the debate in August, it's that the American people think that we can do better. They seek reform, but they reject a government-centered approach. With people on the left, and the right, and everywhere in between dissatisfied with the process, it's time that we start over to create a truly bipartisan solution that puts patients in charge.
Honoring the transparency promised the American people, and the principles of quality care we all hold dear, we can create a patient-centered proposal that all may support. We look forward to working with the President, and on behalf of the American people, to make patient-centered health reform a reality. I'm Congressman Tom Price. Thanks so much for listening''
Comments
Obama's main problem is that he makes statements he cannot back up. There is no "Obama" health care bill. The five or more bills floating around are creations of Pelosi and Reid and reflect the wishes of the extreme leftists in San Francisco and Obama has no control over their content. Anyone who wishes to trust a Washington bureaucrat with his or her life-death decision needs to just visit one of the federal offices on Dearborn to learn what "rude" really means.
Posted by: Danforth | August 22, 2009 10:42 AM
Nice try, but as long as it's to the advantage of the Republicans to obstruct this bill, there's no amount of truth or fact that'll change their minds. If Rush Limbaugh said that Obama was selling the body parts of America's seniors to Venusians in exchange for pod people who looked exactly like the one taken by the Venusians, the Republicans would buy it without question. And it's stopped even being about verifiable fact. Most of these people KNOW that the "Death Panels" aren't real -- but they want to believe it so that they can be good little Republicans, so that's exactly what they do.
Posted by: Op109 | August 22, 2009 11:17 AM
Obama is lying again. He has made a career of lying. He tells us illegal immigrants will not be covered. Well, perhaps he can tell us, then, why an amendment to prevent illegal immigrants from being covered was voted down in the committee on a straight party line vote.
Obama tells us the government will not be taking over the health care system. Well, what other than exactly that is a single payer system? There is no doubt that is where the left wants to go. They never exactly say why they want a takeover of the health care system, but we do know they are not confident enough to subject themselves to what they want to subject the rest of the country to.
Obama tells us not to fear the public option since there will be competition. But, government will set the parameters of the "competition" and, essentially, say who can compete. Obama also neglects to note that the public option will be subsidized by the taxpayers, unlike other health care options, and that the government will set the minimum coverage in any acceptable insurance options. That means if I want a high deductible plan with a health care savings account, I am out of luck. Then, since there is a mandate that I have an "acceptable" health care plan, my options are severely limited. In addition, we have plenty of Democratic Congressmen assuring us that the public option is just a way step on the way to single payer.
Look, this whole health care proposal is being sold via lies and misrepresentations. On the one hand, Obama tells us not to worry because there really isn't any plan, and then he comes back and tells us what the plan doesn't do. So, which is it?
Any company that tried to sell its product the way this health care bill is being sold, would be carted off to jail for false advertising, deception, and fraud. It is too bad, those are not considered "high crimes and misdemeanors".
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 11:32 AM
Obviously BO has never taken an economics class. The health plan that has free capital, which the gov't health plan does, will have a huge economic advantage over the one's that don't. Although the bill list the gov't plan as an option, it will eventualy crowd out the private sector. Therefore, the last two of BO's "myths" will eventually become reality.
Can anyone name a gov't run social entitlement that has met teh customers' service expectations and come in under cost? NO. So BO and the libs' cost estimates are pure fertilizer.
Maybe BO should be putting a little more effort cutting gov't and not expanding it since they just did a Friday Evening news release saying that the projected defciti over the next 10 years is 9 TRILLION dollars.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57K4XE20090821
Posted by: Terry | August 22, 2009 11:45 AM
DopieOpie, the Democrats have a filibuster-proof majority of 60/40 in the Senate and over 250 House seats. Not one Republican needs to vote for any of the Dems health care bills and they can pass. The Republicans can't stop any Dem health care bill in the House nor in the Senate. Republican amendments to the Dem health care bills get shot down because the Dems run the committees. The Dems can do whatever they want. No one can stop them. So, if the Dem bills fail it will be because of the Democrats, not the Republicans or the insurance companies, etc.
Anyway, as usual Obimbo lies. Let's go over Obimbo's myths:
1. Illegal immigrants are covered. First of all, they already are. Any illegal can go into any hospital and get taken care of. And with so many cities being sanctuary cities, they will never get reported to the authorities.
Plus, Obimbo in the past has been ON RECORD as saying he is for covering illegals.
2. It is government-run health care. That is why Peloony and other Nazi-wannabes in the Demcrapic party say they WILL NOT SUPPORT health care reform if THERE IS NO public option.
Plus, Obimbo is ON RECORD as saying he is for the single-payer system.
3. Obimbo has said it must be deficit neutral, yet he CANNOT say how that will be achieved.
4. Obimbo said AARP endorsed his plan. AARP HAS NOT endorsed it.
I could go on with lots more lies propagated by Obimbo and his lying minions, which includes the Chicago Obune. Why are the people doing the job of the nation's state-run media and actually reporting the facts, not what the Annointed One and his criminal little act led by David Axelrod instruct the media to do?
Posted by: John D | August 22, 2009 1:08 PM
What is the big surprise !! The Republican/Libertarians have not stopped lying since the last presidential election and before that, the Bush&Cheney fringe !! We are use to their stupidity and lies. We just have to make sure that the word gets out, that they are at it again. This time the victims will be our sick, our elderly and our most neediest. They don't want America to know the length and breathe of their greed, their incompetence or their malfeasance !! As Tom Ridge pointed out, they lied about our security, they lied about WMDs and they lied about Bush's Blunder in Baghdad. What more can be said about the trashing of the truth among the Neocons and Republicans/Libertarians !!? They have debased our democracy, they have crippled our economy and they have demoralized our nation. Now, they want us to believe them, with their lies on Healthcare. No, that circus act is too old and too damaging for us to even take notice of it. So, come, all of Republican/Libertarians, put away the lies, the half-truths and the distortions, debate the issue on its merits, not your scare tactics !! America deserves, at least that, after your bunch, visited the Bush&Cheney fringe on our nation !!
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.
Posted by: Don Fitzgerald, IL | August 22, 2009 1:13 PM
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 11:32 AM
Yes let's stop the misrepresentation......First that bill about illegals was voted down because it was already in the bill. This was just some grandstanding by republicans and a useless effort. Second...your opinion on government take over is strickly that ....your opinion. Third.....talk about the way to sell a product....if you're selling "death panels" and illegals.....you're selling fear only truth be damned!
Posted by: bill r. | August 22, 2009 1:45 PM
Well, perhaps he can tell us, then, why an amendment to prevent illegal immigrants from being covered was voted down in the committee on a straight party line vote.
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 11:32 AM
Try because they "won't" be covered. It would be redundant legislation that wastes time. Something republicans are good at.
Posted by: syj | August 22, 2009 2:08 PM
I read that 62% of the people who voted for John McCain want the government to keep their hands off of Medicare...talk about delusional. Why don't the GOP senators and representative correct this myth that it is NOT a government run program??? I don't know who did this poll but they are scaring me.
It also scares me that 1. either these people got no education and can't read (so how DID they vote?) or 2. I could be one of these people some day with extreme memory loss.
Posted by: lochnessmonster | August 22, 2009 2:12 PM
I can’t decide which part I like best. The ode to “vigorous debate” from a guy who wanted a bill rammed through Congress before the recess? The tut-tutting about divisive rhetoric from the leader of a party that’s spent the past month demagoguing its opponents as evil-mongering political terrorists? Or the demand from Captain Deficit that we stop putting off until tomorrow the big problems that need solving today?
And if that private plan you like so much ends up going under because it can’t compete with Uncle Sam’s bottomless pit of taxpayer funding, hey. Exit question: Does he really think running through the same stale talking points week after week is finally going to change the public’s attitude about this?
Sir, this irresponsible bankrupting of my nation offends me.
Posted by: Chris | August 22, 2009 2:45 PM
Even BO's supporters are second-guessing the Chisen One's economic plans. BO's health care/insurance reform plans are an economic issue.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/opinion/19buffett.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Posted by: Terry | August 22, 2009 3:18 PM
see www.factcheck.org -- turns out taxpayers WILL end up paying for abortions.
And please -- you can keep your plan? What happens with private companies drop plans because they can't offer the care they want, when competing against Uncle Sam?
We're not stupid. Obama just thinks we are.
Posted by: beth | August 22, 2009 3:27 PM
I suspect syj and billr are the same person. Since the beginning and to this day, Obama and the Democrats tell us that the objective is to cover th 47 million without insurance. Now, since we know that we have approximately 12 million illegal immigrants and that they are included in the 47 million uninsured, then my only question to bill r and syj is: Why does the President consistently say 47 million when, if he did not intend to cover the illegals, the number would be 35 milion. So, guys, which one is it? Are Obama and the Democrats and you lying about the 47 million or are you lying about not covering illegal immigrants. Both cannot be true.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 7:03 PM
"lochness monster" needs to to back to the deep. The Medicare program does two things. It transfers money from those workers younger than 65 to those older than 65. In addition, it pays less than the cost of the services and therefore imposes the difference on the rest of us. It also rides on the back of the current system. Without the current system Medicare could not exist. Medicare also contracts out to the private sector most of the processing.
Now, while the "monster" has escaped the deep, he might want to tell us how the government could have been so wrong when it estimated the cost of Medicare would be $9 billion in 1990 when it turned out to be $67 billion. Medicare is also incapable of rooting out fraud estimated at, wait for it, $60 billion in 2008.
So, if Medicare is a government program it is a rotten example of running one. But, in essence, Medicare is merely a financial transfer program.
I love it when these guys on the left think they have some killer point. It invarabily turns out they don't understand. That is like Obama and using the Post Office as his gleaming esxample.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 7:13 PM
Beth, Obama thinks we're stupid becaue HIS followers ARE stupid! So, he thinks everyone is stupid!
Posted by: John D | August 22, 2009 7:45 PM
More for billr and syj: Even if there is already a prohibition on illegals in the House health care bill, there is no enforcment mechanism. So, any public option would find it difficult to exclude illegals. We can also add that is not a problem with the private health care plans. Citizens, legals, and illegals are all eligible to buy them.
Now, you don't think there are "death panels"? Well, here is an example from Oregon. Tell me how you think the federal plan will differ. Is the federal plan going to offer all things to all people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70KcaXbkJw4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redstate.com%2Ferick%2F2009%2F08%2F21%2Fthe-death-panels-are-real-we-have-the-video%2F%3Fpreview%3Dtrue&feature=player_embedded
We can easily find multiple examples just like this from England, Canada, and New Zealand.
I am astonished at how much the lefties trust the government. These are probably the same people who went around calling Bush and Cheney liars and Nazis, but now with Pelosi, Reid, and Obama, everything will be just dandy. I haven't heard any of the feminists telling the government to keep its hands off their bodies, complaining about this even larger encroachment. I wonder why that is?
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 7:51 PM
beth...Please post the link, all I find in fact check is:
While Planned Parenthood would appear to be a qualified health clinic providing certain health services to women, there is nothing in the amendment’s wording to indicate that abortion would be a covered procedure.
Posted by: bill r. | August 22, 2009 8:24 PM
"" Unfortunately, the plan being promoted by the White House would give Washington the power to make highly personal medical decisions on behalf of patients - on behalf of you. ''
Right there is a huge, filthy lie.
Tom Price is a liar. There is not even a grain of truth behind this lie.
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 22, 2009 8:38 PM
I think abortion should be covered. It's a legal procedure and if the woman and her doctor decide to do it why wouldn't it be covered?
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 22, 2009 9:19 PM
NO CO-OP'S! A Little History Lesson
Young People. America needs your help.
More than two thirds of the American people want a single payer health care system. And if they cant have a single payer system 77% of all Americans want a strong government-run public option on day one (86% of democrats, 75% of independents, and 72% republicans). Basically everyone.
Our last great economic catastrophe was called the Great Depression. Then as now it was caused by a reckless, and corrupt Republican administration and republican congress. FDR a Democrat, was then elected to save the nation and the American people from the unbridled GREED and profiteering, of the unregulated predatory self-interest of the banking industry and Wallstreet. Just like now.
FDR proposed a Government-run health insurance plan to go with Social Security. To assure all Americans high quality, easily accessible, affordable, National Healthcare security. Regardless of where you lived, worked, or your ability to pay. But the AMA riled against it. Using all manor of scare tactics, like Calling it SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! :-0
So FDR established thousands of co-op's around the country in rural America. And all of them failed. The biggest of these co-op organizations would become the grandfather of the predatory monster that all of you know today as the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance industry. And the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare industry.
This former co-op would grow so powerful that it would corrupt every aspect of healthcare delivery in America. Even corrupting the Government of the United States.
This former co-op's name is BLUE CROSS/BLUE SHIELD.
Do you see now why even the suggestion of co-op's is ridiculous. It makes me so ANGRY! Co-op's are not a substitute for a government-run public option.
They are trying to pull the wool over our eye's again. Senators, if you don't have the votes now, GET THEM! Or turn them over to us. WE WILL! DEAL WITH THEM. Why do you think we gave your party Control of the House, Control of the Senate, Control of the Whitehouse. The only option on the table that has any chance of fixing our healthcare crisis is a STRONG GOVERNMENT-RUN PUBLIC OPTION.
An insurance mandate and subsidies without a strong government-run public option choice available on day one, would be worse than the healthcare catastrophe we have now. The insurance, and healthcare industry have been very successful at exploiting the good hearts of the American people. But Congress and the president must not let that happen this time. House Progressives and members of the Tri-caucus must continue to hold firm on their demand for a strong Government-run public option.
A healthcare reform bill with mandates and subsidies but without a STRONG government-run public option choice on day one, would be much worse than NO healthcare reform at all. So you must be strong and KILL IT! if you have too. And let the chips fall where they may. You can do insurance reform without mandates, subsidies, or taxpayer expense.
Actually, no tax payer funds should be use to subsidize any private for profit insurance plans. So, NO TAX PAYER SUBSIDIZES TO PRIVATE FOR PROFIT PLANS. Tax payer funds should only be used to subsidize the public plans. Healthcare reform should be 100% for the American people. Not another taxpayer bailout of the private for profit insurance industry, disguised as healthcare reform for the people.
God Bless You
Jacksmith — Working Class
Twitter search #welovetheNHS #NHS Check it out
(http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-cant-cure-healthcare/)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbWw23XwO5o) CYBER WARRIORS!! - TAKE THIS VIRAL
Posted by: jacksmith | August 22, 2009 11:00 PM
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 7:13 PM
The point I was trying to make is it is scary to me that so that many people that are currently using Medicare and Social Security don't understand that both are government programs...Not saying they are run without problems like most other programs and business for that matter. Nothing is perfect...
Posted by: lochnesssmonster | August 23, 2009 7:16 AM
Read the post...NAZI
http://www.themudflats.net/
very sobering in this debate.
Posted by: lochnesssmonster | August 23, 2009 7:44 AM
Even the American College of Surgeons has branded Obama a liar ("uninformed", "incorrect") on ObamaCare:
"The American College of Surgeons is deeply disturbed over the uninformed public comments President Obama continues to make about the high-quality care provided by surgeons in the United States. When the President makes statements that are incorrect or not based in fact, we think he does a disservice to the American people at a time when they want clear, understandable facts about health care reform. We want to set the record straight.
-- Yesterday during a town hall meeting, President Obama got his facts completely wrong. He stated that a surgeon gets paid $50,000 for a leg amputation when, in fact, Medicare pays a surgeon between $740 and $1,140 for a leg amputation. This payment also includes the evaluation of the patient on the day of the operation plus patient follow-up care that is provided for 90 days after the operation.
Private insurers pay some variation of the Medicare reimbursement for this service.
-- Three weeks ago, the President suggested that a surgeon's decision to remove a child's tonsils is based on the desire to make a lot of money. That remark was ill-informed and dangerous, and we were dismayed by this characterization of the work surgeons do. Surgeons
make decisions about recommending operations based on what's right for the patient.
... The President's remarks are truly alarming and run the risk of damaging the all-important trust between surgeons and their patients." [as reported in the Washington Post, but not The Swamp]
Posted by: Community Organizer | August 23, 2009 8:18 AM
Now, since we know that we have approximately 12 million illegal immigrants and that they are included in the 47 million uninsured, then my only question to bill r and syj is: Why does the President consistently say 47 million
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 22, 2009 7:51 PM
Who says they are part of the 47 million? There is no real data on uninsured as it is not reported. That would be why some republican Senators are saying 8 million uninsured. So I ask you how do you come up with 8 million? But while you fear giving those evil people coverage, real Americans are hurting. Many self-employed can no longer afford the coverage. Many of the recently layed off will have to pay the COBRA payments and will more than likely drop their coverage. Small business can't afford it. The price of healthcare tripled while the republicans were in power and they didn't give a s%t about it. You're all for letting those CEOs make 24 million a year but the hell with the average worker who can't afford insurance. To those who are lucky enough to have coverage through work, are still paying more for that healthcare...it's called bennies......and if the cost were less, the worker could take more money home instead of the cost of that benny. You are so obsessed on illegals that you miss the big picture. I see it all the time........hey! No problem...can't see it from my house.
Posted by: bill r. | August 23, 2009 8:49 AM
Obama is a big fat LIAR. He knows that he plans on covering illegals. He hopes to get more ACORN votes by making Americans pay for health care for illegals. Obama is a liar. This is one of the most corrupt administrations ever. Obama has lied about everything from Gay marriage to health care. Obama can't help it. He is a born liar.
America had better wake up. Obama is trying to take away your rights. Once Obama takes control of health care, he will be able to decide if you live or die.
Wake up. Throw the democrappies out. They are screwing America.
Posted by: Jerry | August 23, 2009 8:52 AM
John D and Beth,
Two stupid people arguing about who is stupid is well, stupid. Now go back to watching Fox News so you can get your talking points that you will surely regurgitate back to all of us "stupid" people.
Posted by: Tim | August 23, 2009 9:15 AM
Here is an article that may clear up some of the many distortions that the opponents of President Obama's initiative to reform our Healthcare system, have spread in hopes of denying American citizens real, affordable and available medical care.
Here is that article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/opinion/23sun1.html?pagewanted=1
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.
Posted by: Don Fitzgerald, IL | August 23, 2009 10:19 AM
DID JESUS HEAL FOR PROFIT?
Today's Republicans are an abomination. Jesus didn't charge the sick and dying people he healed, but right wing Republicans will kill anyone who wants to stop them from protecting the profits of the den of thieves and money changers running Health Insurance Companies.
"Jesus is stated to have visited the Temple in Jerusalem, Herod's Temple, at which the courtyard is described as being filled with livestock and the tables of the money changers, who changed the standard Greek and Roman money for Jewish and Tyrian money, which were the only coinage that could be used in Temple ceremonies. According to the Gospels, Jesus took offense to this (extorting profit from the people to hear the word of God), and so, creating a whip from some cords, drives out the money changers, and turns over their tables, and those of the people selling doves Matthew[21:13] And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, Jesus said, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." (Matthew 10:8)."
The so-called Republican religious right are doing the work of Satan. They are not soldiers of Christ; they are minions of evil
Posted by: osage | August 23, 2009 10:24 AM
The big insurance lobbies and their useful idiots, commonly known as "birthers and deathers" are waging war against 47 million+ Americans without insurance and the remaining whose insurance policy or HMO is a license for fraud and in some cases, malpractice. Why is this ?
Money and profits, profits and CEO's bonuses, and bonuses for turning down claims.
The insurance lobby is holding America hostage and this simply must stop.America needs healthcare reform with a public option. This was candidate Obama's promise to America and that is a big reason why he was elected.
I am tired of the lies spun by the healthcare profiteers and propagated by their screamers and bigots.
What exactly is their plan besides to keep things exactly as is?
Posted by: writerofwrongs | August 23, 2009 10:32 AM
C Morris does not try to refute the claim that the health care plan would make highly presonal decisions for you. Rather, he simply claims that is a "huge, filthy lie" and offers no support at all. So, Morris, tell us what this panel, authorized in the stimulus, to determine effective treatments is all about. Do you think this is just some facade that will do nothing or will it mandate the course of treatment. Take a wild stab at answering this and we will see who the liar actually is.
BTW, simply calling someone a liar does not rise to the level of persuasive argument. If you think it does, you are quite poverty struck in the area of logic and debate.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 23, 2009 10:39 AM
C Morris does not try to refute the claim that the health care plan would make highly presonal decisions for you. Rather, he simply claims that is a "huge, filthy lie" and offers no support at all.
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 23, 2009 10:39 AM
By all means Rick, post your proof it will. You offer nothing more. It is just a scare tactic you use to promote fear among the elderly. That big bad government will euthanize you.........what garbage. If the government wanted to do that, they could have already as the elderly are already on a government program.
Jerry....Great indepth thoughts. Now empty the sand from your pockets after playing in the sandbox and go home for dinner.
Posted by: bill r. | August 23, 2009 11:28 AM
snipped:By all means Rick, post your proof it will. You offer nothing more. It is just a scare tactic you use to promote fear among the elderly. That big bad government will euthanize you.........what garbage. If the government wanted to do that, they could have already as the elderly are already on a government program..snipped.
The boomers have no jobs, no houses, no retirement portfolio and no insurance. Forget SS and medicare; they'll both be depleted when the tsunami of applicants start appearing. When the spirit is destroyed, the body soon follows.
The greedy mercenary social planners aren't targeting the elderly but rather it seems the boomers are in their cross hairs.
Posted by: writerofwrongs | August 23, 2009 12:36 PM
BillyR,
"There is no real data on uninsured as it is not reported." I guess the Census department just makes this stuff up?
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthin07/p60no235_table6.pdf
Posted by: Terry | August 23, 2009 12:53 PM
Theme : time does not fix the endless greed, energy depletion.
1. War, as opposed to democracy, breeds corruption & decay.
As history proves, war, as opposed to democracy, breeds corruption & decay. As one critical example, medical fraud, abuse is estimated to reach $600bn to $6trillion over the next decade lost to it.
Please visit http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111967435, you will be stunned ! Thankfully, in May 2009, the Obama administration announced a new task force made up of officials from the Department of Justice and the Department of Health and Human Services to work on health care fraud.
In another instance, as common sense goes, fire needs to prevent ahead, or contain in earlier phase, nevertheless, from what I've learned, the special interests have hindered the budget request for preventive care program in Medicare & Medicaid so far, which has resulted in health Catrina, exceedingly high level of chronic disease and expense, and astronomical cost of overall health care compared to any other nation, as data shows.
There is no doubt that in ordinary time, investments in a fire safety system do not go into economic effect, but due to the lack of it, once preventable fire breaks out, it overwhelms the narrow calculation, and even goes beyond monetary value. As the swine flu pandemic shows, investment in vaccine could bring about tens, hundreds, even thousands of economic effects in a short period. Thereby, in an effort to prevent another health Catrina, coordinated, systematic non-profit efforts for preventive care, more primary doctors are of critical importance. Probably it also explains why the successful systems in all free nations are committed to public policy. Especially in America, without this preventive care program, any reform would be meaningless.
2. The savings via removing wastes turn into limit to medical access, rationing, tax raise, and deficit etc via the irresponsible lies.
Unlike high fuel price and mortgage rate in recent years as the roots of great recession and bankruptcy of middle class, the severity in the high cost of health premiums has come to light lately. Similarly, in an attempt to hide these painful corruptions & wastes, the greed allies struggle to turn the savings via removing these wastes into limit to medical access, rationing, tax raise, and deficit etc.
By contrast, not to mention a wide range of consumer protection, this promising reform takes initiatives in more primary care docs and improved long-term care. Unnecessarily, hope should not be replaced with fear, just like people don't have to fear quitting drug.
3. Equation & the flower of this reform !
$1.042trillion (cost of reform) + $245bn (cost to reflect annual pay raise of docs) = $1.287bn (actual cost of reform).
$583bn (the revenue package) + $80bn (doughnut hole) + $155bn (savings from hospitals) + $167bn (ending the unnecessary subsidies for insurers) + $277bn (ending medical fraud, a minimum of 3% , the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost of $923.5bn per year, as of July,) = $1.257trillion + the tax code on the wealthiest more reduced than originally proposed = why not ? (except for a magic pill, an outcome-based payment reform & IT effects and so forth).
Additionally, the last thing to expect, no e-medial record, is happening now in the sector requiring the best accuracy in terms of dealing with human lives, which leads to a shocking portion of risk-carrying duplicate tests, fatal errors and deaths, as a consequence, these cause a vicious circle, about $100bn worth of litigations and even more profits via unnecessary procedures for hospitals .
Clearly, the American style innovation, outcome-based payment reform, could speed up the adoption of IT system, under this package, docs' pay is dependant upon patient's outcome, no intervention, wastes, frequent readmissions, low-quality are allowed later on.
It is firmly believed with the preventive care program in operation, this innovation could change the world just like GM Volt ( the release of BYD's earlier appearance in America and the ambitious plan of Germany for 1million of EV by 2020 etc supports it).
4. Hope for pioneer spirit, innovation.
Interestingly enough, pioneers like Ted Kennedy are changing the world somewhere in the U.S. Recently, GM has surprised the world with the adoption of EV-conversion technology from pioneers and outpaced the excellent hybrid cars.
And in spite of the highest annual health plan cost per employee, the revolutionary mandatory-coverage plan in Massachusetts was enacted in 2006 and more than 97% of all Massachusetts residents are now covered -- whereas nationally some 40% of Americans have no health insurance.
Even if the state is suffering financially due to the highest premiums, without the affordable public option and removing all kinds of wastes etc, it achieved near universal health program.
Today, another innovative, fundamental change in payment system, or patient's outcome based payment reform that is able to turn the profit-oriented malpractices and volume into the patient-oriented value and quality is waiting for a final decision.
5. Enough room for savings from the unsustainable wastes.
Many reformers recognized roughly 30 percent of all health-care spending in the U.S. -some $700 billion a year- might be wasted on medical abuse, unnecessary procedures, unnecessary visits to the doctor, overpriced pharmaceuticals, bloated insurance companies, and the most inefficient paper billing systems imaginable, and payment reform could solve this problem.
With around 50% of top of the line practices sitting around, provided the American people pay around twice the amount of the efficient systems, the result is still well below them, the ratio of waste might be estimated to reach far more than 50% in the U.S.
Let's be conservative regarding the ratio. Even If as little as 10% of savings such as removing the wastes involving medical fraud, so called "doughnut hole" , the unnecessary subsidies for insurers, exorbitant costs by the tragic ER visits etc apply to the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost of $923.5bn per year, as of July, the savings of $923.5bn over the next decade are possible. And when these savings add to the already allocated $583 billion, the concern over revenue might be a thing of the past.
As a matter of fact, some patient-focused clinics in 10 regions have already achieved 16% of savings in Medicare while their quality scores are well above average, with the more expansive, systematic reform than them in the pipeline. Aside from the already allocated $583 billion and the savings of this reform package, 16% of $923.5bn (the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost per year) is around $147.76bn per year and 1.4776trillion over the next decade, enough to meet the goal.
Please be 'sure' to visit http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13gawande.html?hp for credible evidences !
Dr. Armadio at Mayo clinic says, "If we got rid of that stuff (waste), we save a third of all that we spend and that is 2.5 trillion dollars on health care. A third of that and that is 700 billion dollars a year. That covers a lot of uninsured people."
Please visit http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=820455&catid=391 for detailed infos.
6. Focus should be on the uninsured, the underinsured.
With the heartbreaking tears in mind (Nearly 11 Million Cancer Patients Without Health Insurance), private market also needs changes and should join together to complete this reform , as promised, otherwise, the runaway premium only has itself to blame while new firms are filling the void with competitive deals.
And It can be said that fair competition starts with a fair, sustainable market value.
However, the plan in the House is designed to keep people in an employer-based health insurance system, and the public option would be offered to those for whom employer-provided insurance is not available. And job-based coverage (indirect payment), some mandate code, ample capital, the reduced exorbitant ER costs, IT base to streamline the administrative processes and trim the costs might be favorable to the private market. Over time, supposedly, the public plan will concentrate more on basic, primary cares, and the private insurers will provide their clients with differentiated services.
7. Choice between hope and manipulated fear.
To be sure, time does not fix the endless greed, energy depletion. Considering the current fuel price is hovering around $60 to $70 per barrel in this economy, supposedly it might be equivalent to the peak price last year while the similar runaway premiums keep on rising, heading for financial ruin. And it is firmly believed if people fail to build a bridge for the next generations (some 40% of the uninsured, 20million), the current generation, too, can not avoid falling off the cliff, as the world-wide overpopulation & immense consumption in conventional energy and the other resources no longer allows waste.
As usual, when the positive effects including job creation and savings generated by investments are left out of the equation, fear and scare are left alone. Unlike biased reports, despite the unsustainable fuel price, swine flue pandemic, most important, even a tipping point of this great recession, auto industry bankruptcy, just 15% of stimulus package is still working, as the economic report card, stock index shows. To overcome scare, comprehensive thinking is required, as always. Today choice between hope and manipulated fear lies with people's will.
-- No More Health Catrina, No More Bankruptcy Of Middle Class ! --
-- Except For The Underinsured, The Uninsured Alone Outnumber The Entire Population In Canada --
Thank You !
Posted by: hsr0601 | August 23, 2009 1:20 PM
To bill r: First, check this Kaiser report in pdf form.
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-03.pdf
Pay attention to figure 5 on page 11 which estimates the illegal number at 10-12 million or 22% of the total uninsured. I really don't understand how you can object to this. The number of illegals is estimated at 12 million, so of course that is counted in the number of uninsured. The accepted number is about 15 million who want insurance, but don't have it and are Americans. We can quibble if you like, but it is clearly not 47 million as the proponents would have us believe.
Now, as usual for a lefty, you come to a complete and incorrect conclusion. I have never argued, not has anyone I know, that we should do nothing for those Americans who want insurance, but cannot afford it. What we do argue against is the idea we need to do a fruit basket turnover of our whole health care system to insure about 15 million people who want health insurance. We also argue against a mandate to force people who do not want insurance to get it.
Instead, you come up with the incredibly stupid statement "while you fear giving those evil people coverage, real Americans are hurting". Are you so bereft of logic you think your claim is equivalent to mine?
The price of health care did not triple. But, even if it did, would you prefer to have 1970's health care with only those drugs, no MRI, PET scan, or CT scan available. Are you willing to do without laproscopic and arthroscopic surgery and would you like to return the virtual death sentences that cancer and heart disease were? Or, is it your incredibly dumb argument that those advances should be free?
Why do you care what the health care executive make? Do you realize that $25 million is about 1/1000 of a percent of the spending on the health care system? So, don't try to tell me you care because we would have a vastly better health care system if they go paid less. It would not even be a rounding error. You have exactly zero reason to care about the salary of a health care CEO. You might better spend your time worrying about the estimated annual $60 billion in Medicare fraud.
No, bill r, You through out a few ad hominems and think they should suffice, but it is clear you have no idea of what problem you are really trying to address and what the options are to do so.
For the record, I prefer the McCain plan to decouple health care from employment (you know, the one Obama attacked, but now embraces) and replace it with a tax credit (credit, bill r, not deduction). We can help those who still cannot afford health insurance at a lot less cost than we can with this idea of putting a government in charge who can't even pay dealers in the "cash for clunkers" program. BTW, did you notice they had to abandon calling in the FAA off duty guys to help with the payments because they had system problems). Yeah, right. It is just a great idea top ut these guys in charge of the health care system.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 23, 2009 3:42 PM
bill r, Now, now, I pointed out to you the panel that will authorize valid treatments as they see it. Are you actually trying to argue that the existence of this panel that will determine what is allowed is not coming between you and your doctor? How would that work then? Your doctor says do this, you say OK, the feds say no. Are you going to call that something other than getting between you and your doctor? What pray tell will you call it then?
Here is an example, again, from Oregon where that is exactly the case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70KcaXbkJw4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redstate.com%2Ferick%2F2009%2F08%2F21%2Fthe-death-panels-are-real-we-have-the-video%2F%3Fpreview%3Dtrue&feature=player_embedded
That, bill r, is an example of a death panel. There is a drug that will help, but it is too expensive. Here, we can authorize doctor assisted suicide. Watch the TV 2 news report and weep as your arguments dissolve.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 23, 2009 3:53 PM
Rick Caird, it is not nice to present facts and reality to members of the Loony Left. It makes their head hurt, makes them throw childish tantrums, and they ignore the facts and reality anyway because to be a Loony Lefty it is imperative that one suspends all sense of reality and truths!
Posted by: John D | August 23, 2009 5:36 PM
Here are a few insurance death panels then:
Blue Shield Denies New Cancer Treatment Claim
(5/6/2008)
Will your insurance company pay for the treatment your doctors recommend? They may not. That's what a single mother from Chico said she found out.
In late April, Shelly Andrews-Buta was scheduled to undergo treatment for breast cancer that had spread to her brain, threatening her life.
The experience has been emotionally devastating. "I have two beautiful children, you know, I'm a single mom, they need me to be around," Andrews-Buta told CBS 5 Investigates.
But instead of having doctors working to remove her brain tumors on the day the surgery was scheduled, she sat in a San Francisco hotel room. Why? Because at the last minute, her insurance company, Blue Shield, decided it wasn't going to pay for the treatment her doctors at UCSF Medical Center had recommended.
Here is another:
Millersville, Pa
Heathcare Status: Employer Insured
Dear Mr. Moore, I am a 56 year old woman with stage 4 mestatic breast cancer which has mestastisized to my bone in the hip area. I had 15 radiation treatments and afterward suffered a very painful fracture in the same area. In testing for the source of the pain, the Dr. found the persence of some more lesions of cancer below the bone.
Since March, 2007, I've been trying to enter into a Vaccine study for metastisized Breast cancer at Johns Hopkins Hospital (Baltimore, Maryland) where I am being treated. I have appealed to my Insurance Company and been turned down 3 times.
Heres another:
HOUSTON -- Note: The following story is a verbatim transcript of an Investigators story that aired on Thursday, April 19, 2007, on KPRC Local 2 at 10 p.m.
Tonight, Local 2 investigates why some insurance companies are refusing to pay for potentially life-saving medical treatments. Have you looked closely at your health insurance plan?
Chances are, you wouldn't notice the wording we've discovered that's leaving patients and not the insurance companies stuck paying for treatment that might save their lives.
Heres another:
17-year-old boy needs cancer treatment, PacifiCare denies
CYPRESS, Calif., March 24 /PRNewswire/ -- Registered nurses, friends and concerned community members will join the family of Nick Colombo marching on the corporate offices of health insurance giant PacifiCare in Orange County this Tuesday to protest the denial of a life-saving cancer treatment for the 17-year-old, the California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee (CNA/NNOC) announces.
Here is another:
A trainee teacher with life-threatening cancer has launched a legal battle against health chiefs after they refused to pay for her treatment. Philippa Bigham, 28, has two years to live unless she is given a new drug which will enable her to undergo a life-saving bone marrow transplant.
So don't go there with the death panel crap.
Posted by: bill r. | August 23, 2009 6:19 PM
Rick ....I will be glad to answer you.....but you seem to be all over the board....and I don't really have the time right now to decipher it all.
I"LL BE BAK!
Posted by: bill r. | August 23, 2009 6:21 PM
hsr0601 is quite strange. If you take some of the major heading phrases and enter them into Google or Bing, you will get pages of hits, It seems hsr0601 has been posting this same screed or parts of it all across the internet. I can't tell if it is original with him or a cut and paste because there are just too many occurrences of his post. Some of the phrases return at least 20 pages of occurrences.
Each and every one of his posts references "Catrina". From the context, it appears this is a misspelling of Katrina and refers to the hurricane striking Mississippi and Louisiana.
hsr0601 brings in Massachusetts, but neglects to tell us the disaster that program is. The costs have tripled in 3 years and Massachusetts is now asking for a Federal bailout. People are also gaming that system. Signing up only when they are sick and dropping out again after they get well.
hsr0601 also ignores Maine. In Maine the public option has driven out the private insurers.
Tennessee, on the other hand, tried a public system and recently abandoned it because they could not afford it.
The history of these public options is one of overwhelming expense. We can also see that on national scales in Canada, England, and France. It is astonishing that, in the face of all these failures, anyone would seriously propose the US destroy our health care system and waddle in with another failure.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 23, 2009 6:34 PM
Caird,
Here's all you need to know about John D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RJEnNUg1I
Posted by: Mr. Theremin | August 23, 2009 6:48 PM
Well, you can't disprove a negative, Caird.
The Death Panel portion of the bill simply covers end of life options. Simple stuff.
And BTW; The private insurers get between the docs and patients much more than any public plan I have heard about.
Ever hear of:
1. Pre-certification
2. Pre existing conditions
3. Copays (Now going to 75/25(yup, it's a comin'))
4. Denials for any reason
5. Cancelation for any reason dreamed up by the private death panels
6. $4000 deductibles
7. Lifetime limits
8. 50/50 copays if you get sick while out of town.
9. Denial of covered claims at the discretion of the private ins. co.
The private insurers have ZERO claim to credibility. They have been screwing America for 3 decades.
My 'private' plan costs $3800 per year in premiums plus $2000 deductible and 80/20 copays.
That leave a lot of 'difference' on offsets between a private and public plan.
You guys never mention 'cost shifting', BTW.
Everybody paying for insurance, be it a corp. or individual. pays for the uninsured. Any plan that covers everybody will require a larger pool, thus spreading the cost, making the unit cost less.
That's simple insurance econ 101.
One again, Bill R is right; The new plan will not be making life/death decisions. It will simply make end of life planning something people will actually think about. That's a good thing.
Further,
Most of the ignorant cretins opposing this plan lump the Canadian, UK, French and Euro plans together as 'marxism'. They are so stupid they don't know the difference between the plans, and evidently don't even know those countries were our allies against communism.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 23, 2009 8:16 PM
All we need to do is look at the states that have implemented state run health care and see what the financial condition is of these states. Go look at the negative financial impact gov't run health insurance has had on the budgets of Massachuettes, Oregon, Tennessee, Maine, and Hawaii.
As far as death panels, go see how Oregon is treating it's elderly.
http://www.physiciansforreform.org/index.php?id=30
Posted by: Terry | August 23, 2009 8:36 PM
Rick...let's cut to the chase and discard trying to play games with estimated numbers and get down to the core of the issue. If it is illegals that bother you, than the FACT that illegals are not covered in this bill should be enough. Section 246 of HR320 says, “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” End of story. Play games all you want but facts are facts.
Now lets get to healthcare costs over the republican decade: Fact: A study by Families USA found that health insurance premiums grew 3.7 times faster than personal incomes for most of the past decade.
Then you go into some droning monoloque about CT scans, MRIs, and the 70s which I can't even tell what you're talking about.
As far as why I care what CEOs make? To pay these lackeys 24 million each, they are denying coverage to people to keep that lavish lifestyle and pay coming in. Hell son, we pay the President of the United States 400K a year...are you telling me that the insurance company is worth 23.6 million more? You also seem to be stuck on this "uninsured" and don't seem to get the whole picture. There are millions of self-employed in America that pay huge premiums. I recieve Va coverage, but if I didn't, for my wife and myself we would be paying over $1200 a month. Are you kidding me? Now maybe you're one who gets coverage at work........that's nice, but guess what? It's a bennie, it figured into your package, and if it didn't cost so much, you might actually take more home. Then you also go on about medicare fraud.......are you kidding? There is fraud in every business. Hell 60 Billion? How much did Madoff get away with just him? By the way...look it up....the insurance companies claim that 80 billion a year is lost to fraud. I suggest writing smaller, less rambling posts so they can be addressed easily.
Ps. John D......you're like the bridge troll that only sticks it's head out to throw dribble, then retreats.
Posted by: bill r. | August 23, 2009 8:37 PM
What the Hey! Rep. Tom Price, pretty smooth,but you still have your head up your @%#! How much are the insurance company's sticking in your pockets? If you want to sell me insurance, sell me auto, life, accident or property insurance. Don't sell me health insurance, that is a racket dreamed up by the insurance company's, who won't sell health insurance to sick people, old people, or folks who have pre-existing conditions. Where is the profit in that?? Madoff should be in charge of that racket. Everyone should be entitled to health care. If the citizen's of this country don't get national health care, then no one should be entitled to health care paid for by the tax payer!! That includes teachers, police, firemen, federal workers state workers, local government workers, the military, postal workers and anyone else that gets health care paid for by the tax payer. And while we are at it, no one should be entitled to a pension paid for by the tax payer, PERIOD! If you want a pension, form a group and contribute to a pension fund out of your own checks! And we don't need a co-op, controlled by the insurance company's who would still be in charge of our health care, and telling you if you can have the procedure done or not!! What we need is a single payer government run plan, eliminate the health insurance industry which is a scam and a racket, Madoff should be in charge of that racket. I thought we had racketeering laws on our books! Bulldoze the existing health care system and construct a new system in a forward and on a measured pace, with or without the right wing nuts. WE ALREADY HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE, WE HAVE MEDICARE, WE HAVE V. A. WHICH TAKE CARE OF OUR VETS, FEDERAL WORKERS, STATE WORKERS, LOCAL GOVERNMENT WORKERS, TEACHERS, POLICE, FIREMEN, POLITICIANS, POSTAL WORKERS, SANITATION WORKERS, AND ALL WHO GET HEALTH CARE PAID FOR BY THE TAXPAYER, PERIOD!! WHEN THE REPUBLICANS HAD CONTROL OF THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE JUDICIAL BRANCH THEY DID NOTHING. WHY DIDN'T THEY PUT FORTH A PLAN?? BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS NEVER DO ANYTHING FOR THIS COUNTRY, THEY ONLY DO THINGS TO THIS COUNTRY! whiteagle38
Posted by: R Juneau | August 23, 2009 11:41 PM
C. Morris is really off the wall. He is confusing multiple points and claiming they are all the same point. He could only be doing that on purpose.
1. Precertification: - HMO - not PPO. Also known as a "second opinion"
2. Pre existing condition: A question of price or exclusion. Prevents cherry picking. See problems with Massachessets and Maine.
3. Co pays: reduces frivolous use of medical resources. See Arnold Kling
4. Denials - I have never had a denial and that includes family with serious medical
5. Cancelation - Are you including liars, too? No one I know has been canceled
6. High Deductable - One option I would take, but my wife won't. Also, self insurance. You want insulation, not insurance. Do you want oil changes, too?
7. Lifetimes limits - Of course, Do you want to pay for no limit coverage?
8 50/50 Copays - Out of network. My PPO has a national network. I picked it for that. You probably went for price.
9. Denial of coverage - Did you buy that particular coverage that was denied? What was covered and then denied? I did have a denial once. My first wife needed therapy and was denied coverage because the thrapist did not have a doctorate.
I try not to call someone on the opposite side of a debate a liar, but you qualify. What you have tried to do is take a variety of different insurance plans and claim all plans are similar. If you know enough to enter this debate, you know that is not true.
Actually, my company, UNH, has 100% credibility with me. So, does my wife's, Aetna. In fact, you can only claim "ZERO credibility" if you ignore the over 80% of us who like our medical insurance. Do you not do even basic research?
If you lived in Florida, you would understand risk pools. Think windstorm (hurricane) damage. The coastal areas pay more because there is more risk. You also fail to note that the government mandate that everyone have health insurance is designed to get the young and healthy to pay into the pool. Cost shifting is also forced by government mandate that all be treated even if they do not have insurance. It is also caused by the underpayment by Medicare. So, in what alternate universe are you going to claim that eliminating cost shifting will lower the total cost. That cannot happen.
I have explained multiple times why rationing will have to happen. When you ration, you have to make life death decisions. Your sole response is "new plan will not be making life/death". You offer no justification, but, like lefties, just an unsupported assertion. You will have to do better.
It is really surprising that you would call anyone stupid. It must be projection. BTW, Marxism, like fascism, is a form of socialism, but only two forms. I know of no one claiming national health care is "Marxism". Are you learning the strawman technique from Obama? You are getting quite good at it.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 24, 2009 7:35 AM
bill r. Illegals bother me because they do not shoulder their part of the load, free medical will cause additional illegals, and they are included in the false total of 47 million the lefties throw out. I notice you have now backed off on the claim the 47 million does not include illegals. Now, without an enforcement mechanism, there is no way to exclude illegals. Second, are you now suggesting illegals would not be treated if this monstrosity passes? I doubt it. It is easy to put a sentence in a bill, but more difficult to enforce. But, please tell me why the amendment to require verification of not being an illegal was voted down by the Democrats? Could it be they didn't want to actually exclude illegals? BTW, how would amnesty and a path to citizenship affect the sentence? Oh wait, it makes it inoperative.
If you do not understand how medical techniques and technology have advance in the past 40 years, you are at a serious disadvantage. People like you think that increased funtion should be free. But, it only in medical that you think that. So you go into a hardware store and think a self propelled lawn mower should cost the same as a push mower did 40 years ago? No, you don't. But, that explains why you complain about increased cost. You fail to understand increased function. Let me put it this way for dummies: before MRI, CT scans, and PET scans, the only way to find out was invasive exploratory surgery. Think about that and then think about how fast and easy to get an MRI. You can get all three of those scans within in a week. And, yes, there are times someone needs all three.
You still have not given a reason why you object to CEO pay. Every US President knows the pay before he takes the job. Politicians value power more than pay. But, ask Bill Clinton how his pay now compares to his pay as President. Then ask him if he thinks his pay today would have happened if he had not been President.
Health insurance costs what it costs. Go without and pay the full freight if you object to the cost. But, if you are unwilling to pay the cost of not being insured, then don't complain about the cost of the insurance. Basically, you are merely a whiner. You want the rest of us to pay for your insurance. NO.
Are you really comparing Madoff with Medicare? Seriously? Wow.
Your claim of insurance fraud being $80 billion, includes all forms of insurance. But, you knew that. You just hoped I wouldn't check. Just for your understanding, Medicare does not include auto and home insurance, for example.
I am sorry you cannot follow anything other than simple talking point logic. But, that is your loss, not mine.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Caird | August 24, 2009 8:00 AM
"C. Morris is really off the wall. He is confusing multiple points and claiming they are all the same point. He could only be doing that on purpose."
Whhaaa?? Of course they are multiple points. That's the point(s) regarding the privateers in the private insurance shakedown.
1. Precertification: -
(CM)
Precert. is NOT a second opinion, Rick, and every one of the half dozen or so plans I have been in since about 1980 require it. The precert is done by bean counters, not docs. It's all part of how the private insurers get between you and your doctor.
2. Pre existing condition:
CM
This is cherry picking. It allows the syndicate to deny coverage to anyone that is sick.
3. Co pays:
CM
No, it's a way to enhance the profits of the insurance syndicate.
4. Denials -
CM
Well, aren't you lucky. Any policy I have read explicitly states 'We can deny 'for any reason' even covered claims'.
5. Cancelation -
CM
Well, aren't you lucky, again. Better lucky than good, hey Rick?
6. High Deductable -
CM
I would prefer low deductibles at a reasonable cost. Better yet, no deductibles with Single Payer.
7. Lifetimes limits -
CM
My first employer provided insurance in 1968 provided $1million lifetime limit. My current insurance provides......... $1million lifetime limit. Seems to me that should have quadrupled along with the premium.
8. 50/50 Copays -
CM
I know of almost no one with a national network. the 50/50 is the 'rusted iron' standard for the vast majority of our fellow prisoners. And many plans are now going to 75/25 in network. This is part of 'cost containment' ; Increasing your costs by increasing their profits. When the industry and their representatives in congress talk about 'containing costs' they mean shifting more of the burden to the customer to enhance their bottom lines. It has nothing to do with reducing actual cost containment.
9. Denial of coverage -
CM
See preexisting condition. People are denied private insurance every day.
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 24, 2009 10:19 AM
Caird calling Morris a liar is like;
Beck calling Obama a racist
Goebbels complaining about the heat
Mark Sanford running on family values
T-baggers calling Obama a Nazi
OJ searching for the real killer
Ted Haggard claiming to be 'cured'
Posted by: Billy Mumy | August 24, 2009 10:34 AM
RC says
Cost shifting is also forced by government mandate that all be treated even if they do not have insurance
way to shoot yourself in the foot. you claim to know about risk pools?
with national health ins. the pool would be much larger thus reducing unit costs for all and eliminate the need for cost shifting.
Posted by: keith | August 24, 2009 10:38 AM
"It is really surprising that you would call anyone stupid."
Easy there, RC. If you watch a video of the town hall mobs and don't think they are stupid, well, lets just say you don't seem stupid, so I don't think you would defend them.
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 24, 2009 10:44 AM
*CM does not try to refute the claim that the health care plan would make highly presonal decisions for you.*
More TZ dissembling from Mr. Caird.
Submitted for your approval;
Private insurance companies make highly personal decisions for patients through pre-certification, denial of coverage, selecting which doctors the patient may see.
Posted by: Rod Serling ♫♫ | August 24, 2009 10:51 AM
" I know of no one claiming national health care is "Marxism". Are you learning the strawman technique from Obama? You are getting quite good at it.
Rick"
The internet is lousy with people making that claim. Of course it's absurd on the face of it. I'm not claiming these site are credible. This is, however, the quality of what's out there.
http://gr-rtr.blogspot.com/2009/08/obama-care-from-hell.html
BTW, the folks at FOX News have been calling it 'Marxist. Beck and Hunnity have run whole segments with 'Marxism' plastered across the graphic.
Posted by: C.Morris✧ | August 24, 2009 11:20 AM
DopieOpie, the Democrats have a filibuster-proof majority of 60/40 in the Senate and over 250 House seats. Not one Republican needs to vote for any of the Dems health care bills and they can pass. The Republicans can't stop any Dem health care bill in the House nor in the Senate. Republican amendments to the Dem health care bills get shot down because the Dems run the committees. The Dems can do whatever they want. No one can stop them. So, if the Dem bills fail it will be because of the Democrats, not the Republicans or the insurance companies, etc.
Anyway, as usual Obimbo lies. Let's go over Obimbo's myths:
1. Illegal immigrants are covered. First of all, they already are. Any illegal can go into any hospital and get taken care of. And with so many cities being sanctuary cities, they will never get reported to the authorities.
Plus, Obimbo in the past has been ON RECORD as saying he is for covering illegals.
2. It is government-run health care. That is why Peloony and other Nazi-wannabes in the Demcrapic party say they WILL NOT SUPPORT health care reform if THERE IS NO public option.
Plus, Obimbo is ON RECORD as saying he is for the single-payer system.
3. Obimbo has said it must be deficit neutral, yet he CANNOT say how that will be achieved.
4. Obimbo said AARP endorsed his plan. AARP HAS NOT endorsed it.
I could go on with lots more lies propagated by Obimbo and his lying minions, which includes the Chicago Obune. Why are the people doing the job of the nation's state-run media and actually reporting the facts, not what the Annointed One and his criminal little act led by David Axelrod instruct the media to do?
Posted by: John D | August 22, 2009 1:08 PM
Dolt, the Dem majority has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the argument. Whether as a minority or a majority, it’s Republicans who’ve chosen to throw up smokescreens about the Insurance bill in Town Hall Meetings across the country rather than to argue it on actual points. Said smokescreens – the “Death Panels,” the “Coverage for Illegal Immigrants” are LIES (not points of contention – LIES) about what you guys are claiming – FALSELY – is included in the bill. Since neither of these is in the bill, it is a lie to claim either IS in the bill. (Are you missing the point as usual, Dolt?)
If Republicans are upset about the way the bill’s worded, that’s a WHOLE different case – and an understandable one – as opposed to having a bunch of partisan idiots running from Town Hall Meeting to Town Hall Meeting LYING about what the bill contains and ensuring that no other argument than theirs gets heard (which, as it works out, happens to deny the freedom of speech to the others they outshout, IMO). Unfortunately for the Republicans, though, arguing the bill on its actual merits and working out something that would actually HANDLE your concerns would involve something called “Bipartisanship,” which, I believe, is genetically anathema to all Republicans.
As for covering Illegal Immigrants, all I can tell you is that the wording of the proposed bill would expressly deniy them insurance. And, as one who IS insured, let me remind you there's a big, big difference between being "covered" by an insurance policy as opposed to just showing up in an emergency room as an uninsured person. Undoubtedly, if they do go to an emergency room, they’ll be treated – AND THEY SHOULD be treated. These are PEOPLE, not animals. Do I presume correctly from your argument that Republicans want them to just die in the streets? The point is whether or not they’ll be INSURED for the treatment. The cost of treating uninsured people who can’t pay for the treatment would, I assume, be borne by EVERYBODY (as it is now); it’d be to our benefit to cut down on that cost by insuring as many currently-uninsured people as possible. However, if not insuring Illegals is a point of contention and there’s a problem in the bill’s wording that makes this a “crack” through which they can slip, then that crack should be tightened up. How exactly do the mobs you’ve got shrieking their heads off accomplish that?
In the case of your other three "points," DESPITE the childishness of your wording, I happen to agree with you on wanting these issues cleared up (or, perhaps more accurately, I DISagree with you in that I actually WANT them cleared up rather than just screaming hysterically about them). I’m uncomfortable with how government-run insurance might be handled; President Obama has NOT adequately explained how the program would be funded, and – no – AARP has NOT endorsed the plan. For all three, I’d like to see some answers. The unfortunate thing is that while Republicans are busy screaming “DEATH PANELS” “YOU’RE KILLING MY GRANDMA!” and toting guns to the meetings, the people who want to ASK these questions and get answers aren’t able to get a word in. Thanks a bunch to you and the other obstructive Republicans for that, Dolt.
Posted by: Op109 | August 24, 2009 2:32 PM
Obama has lied about everything from Gay marriage to health care. Obama can't help it. He is a born liar.
Obama also talked about what reform would do, such as provide affordable insurance to those who don’t have it, ban “unfair practices” by insurers, such as denying coverage for preexisting conditions, and place more emphasis on routine and preventive care.
Posted by: Bishop Ricard | August 25, 2009 8:24 AM
Rick Caird appears to be a paid troll.
Posted by: TheReamer | August 25, 2009 11:15 AM
This is an emotional issue and we all should support covering individuals through private health insurance. To conquer these serious changes, doesn’t it seem right to advocate for greater transparency in both quality and price information, for it overlaps with many other issues? http://www.friendsoftheuschamber.com/issues/index.cfm?ID=300
Posted by: md | August 25, 2009 6:53 PM