Pelosi, Hoyer: 'Un-American' protests

It looks like the inmates are running the asylum. Pelosi and Hoyer, with a long list of others have no business being in office. They ought to try engaging their brains before opening their mouths.

Sen. McConnell shouldn't be so quick to criticize the Dems for trying to "demonize" those who speak way too loudly at these town hall meetings to let anyone else be heard. If they can be reasonable and not rowdy, everyone can get a chance to speak.

Was throwing tea into Boston Harbor "Un-American"?

The fact that the healthcare subject is getting so many polarizing responses, whether impromptu or staged, should be reason enough for our elected officials to pause and think if this is really the right time to force a major program. People are angry enough over jobs, rising prices, lost savings...perhaps we address those then revisit healthcare when the waters are calmer.

Only when people state an opposing view to the almighty Obama and his sidekick Pelosi, are people unAmerican. These two need to go back and read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Then again, they probably haven't read those two documents considering they don't even read their own legislation.

Hey Nancy its socialism that's un-American, not protest.

Why Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer worried about the discussion on this issue. Give us the same healthcare plan they have and every one is happy. Don't try to ram any other plan down our throats. The American people are mad as hell and won't take this anymore.

Pelosi and her party has lost touch with the majority
of Amercia. If anyone has been acting un-Amercian
it's Nancy Pelosi with her comments. 2010 is coming fast and to quote another member of her party, "Change is Coming".
Check the current polls & they agree.

The selective idealism of rabid liberals and the hypocrisy of the democrats is un-American. When minorities protest for 'their rights' it is 'all good' according to their play book. They can riot, burn down our cities, anything to 'make the point' they pursue. The entire argument of the Roe vs. Wade ruling was that women demanded the right to control their own bodies. The health care issue is no different. I think Pelosi should be fired, impeached, or whatever it is we do to the incompetent and unqualified. Every American has the right to protest. If there are lobbyists coordinating the efforts, so what? The point is moot. The democrats have done the very same thing for the past 30 years. Lobbyist's have the right to protest as well; if they want to coordinate a protest to make some very good points, it works for me. I fought in Vietnam for their right to do so. Pelosi can 'get on the bike'.

So, let me get this straight. When whiney liberals tie up traffic, disrupt business and cause general chaos when protesting a war, that's patriotic. When people, who are fed up with the current government and its lies and out of control spending policies, protest, it is un-american. Very interesting!

De. Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's top advisor on the healthcare overhaul, says he opposes euthanasia. But when you read his actual writings it is clear that he thinks some lives have more value than others. For example, the elderly have less value because they have less years for productivity left. This logic is absolutely consistent with the idea of useless eaters propagated by Dr. Josef Mengele's Nazis. Now who is obfuscating whom?

We need national term limits for politicians - no more career politicians.

We need 1 issue bills with a 200 page limit so the bill can be read by the lawmakers.

Washington is so out of hand and out of touch. Maybe lawmakers should stay home and use "go to meeting" instead of hiding out in Washington.

Has anyone in office read this thing? They cannot answer the simplest questions. Speaking one's mind is a right guaranteed by the First Amendment. First for a reason. Our forefathers are rolling in their graves over the goings on in government, and have been for the last 25 years. Pelosi needs to get a clue and realize of the 250 million folks in this country, there are many who are not sheep.

It is actually American to protest or to be actively speak your mind to out of touch leaders. She and others say those things and have absolutely no shame. I hope US citizens are listening and will remember this chaos next election. We are well beyond the let them eat cake days...

Sorry Queen Pelosi, you really suck!

Looks like the birther movement has hit a dead-end. I suppose Obama is God & can go back in time & print the announcement of his birth in at least two Hawaiian newspapers.

That's it, keep-up the yelling & listen to Beck about how "it's not the time to pick-up your guns." While you're at it, also insist on revoking the other government run health care systems, that being Medicare, Medicaid, military & veteran's systems. As Palin says, they are evil.

Here is a clip from a Glen Beck interview of Daniel Hannan, a member of the British Parliment. Mr Hannan can not for the life of him understand why we would think about going to a government run health care system. The British system is in ruins, but is so entrenched that it is impossible to get out of. What's so American about this? http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/07/daniel-hannan-on-obamacare-are-you-people-insane/

According to Nancy Pelosi and her gang anyone who has questions about the Health Bill now in front of Congress is Un-American. Obama, who said he was going to unify America, has done the exact opposite by having the Far Left Wing of the Democratic Party led by Nancy Pelosi, Henry Waxman and Barney Frank, led the fight foe so-called reforms. The people that are the real Un-Americans are Nancy Pelosi, Henry Waxman, Barney Frank, the Obama White House and the rest of the Far Left Wing Gang that are now trying to suppress freedom of speech. It is the old Left Wing Tactic that they are in favor of Freedom of Speech as long as the agree with it.

Hey, why don't you all go do with your Health Care? Well, in fact, you will.

I noticed they keep calling it "health insurance reform". I think most Americans would welcome some laws defining boundaries for health insurance companies. The fact is this is not health insurance reform, it is a bill to institute socialized medicine. Yeah, I can see why many Americans are POed. This guy thinks that any lie that comes out of his mouth becomes immediately true when he says it.

Richard P Boyer,

You need a history lesson if you are drawing a parallel to the Boston Tea Party. "....without representation" should ring a bell. Back then, we didn't elect those who led our land. Today, we do. It's a democracy. When you figure it out, let me know.

Talk about inconsistency...Obama tells us we MUST reform healthcare NOW as it is UNTENABLE in one breath. Then, in the next, he says, "if you like your plan, if you like your doctor, you can keep them" Huh? So, the system must CHANGE, but the 80% of us who are insured can stay the same?? How does that work? Could he be lying about one or the other??

It's the true genius of the radical elite conservative power structure to be able to gin up outrage among the very groups that would most benefit from a policy like health-care reform.

People are angry, but it is not in their best interest to react emotionally.

Two possibilities exist: that Obama is a subversive bent on destroying America for some obscure reason, or that corporatist interests and their mouthpieces are afraid of changing a system that is making them rich at the expense of Americans.

"What's the Matter with Kansas?", indeed...

We are seeing a typically short-sighted approach by those opposed to reform. Mainly aging, selfish baby-boomers I might add. If reform action is not taken, the health care industry has carte blanche for another 10-20 years to run wild. And, judging from their past performance, a $10,000 x-ray or $800 prescription is right around the corner. So, if you're OK with those outrageous charges, just keep screaming the script you're being fed like a fool. Whatever you do, don't offer up any solutions or alternatives.

Brave and confident citizens are of little use to the socialist, because they have little appetite for government control of their daily lives. People who retain a measure of faith in their own abilities, and their ability to succeed in a free marketplace, are not looking for saviors. When a politician jumps in front of them and declares himself to be their messiah, they’re likely to respond with laughter. People like Barack Obama, and the leadership of the Democrat Party, do not like being laughed at. They are even less willing to tolerate questions about their wisdom or good intentions. Their predecessors left them the keys to a well-tuned machine that suppresses laughter, and questions, with apprehension and dread.

The Obama Administration expects Americans to live every day in fear. We’re supposed to be afraid of the health insurance, energy, and banking industries. We’re supposed to be so frightened of the damage our prosperity inflicts on the Earth that we’ll pay literally any price to make it stop. We’re told that everyone who speaks out against Obama’s agenda is a well-dressed tool of sinister corporations, or the demonic servant of people who hate the President because of his skin color, or the storm troopers of a powerful new Nazi party coalescing from thin air. The Democrats believe they don’t have to win debates, if they can make the public too afraid to listen to their opponents. They insist that their agenda must be implemented in haste, with no time for debate… and what makes people more nervous than being repeatedly told there is no time to lose?

Choice is frightening. The responsibilities of freedom are frightening. Freedom necessarily implies the possibility of failure, because not every action available to free men and women can be guaranteed to succeed. The Democrats present themselves as saviors who wish to liberate you from the burden of choice, and the duties that come with freedom. All they require is your blind faith, for just a little bit longer… until all the choices are made for you, forever, and you become the child of a maternal State that will protect you from harm, and punish you for disobedience.

There is a way to break the Fear Machine, and make it backfire on those who control it: courage. Brave men and women don’t do anything blindly. Courage brings confidence, and confident people never stop asking questions. Confidence brings the wisdom to understand that a prosperous, happy future can be found through the creativity and spirit of millions of your fellow citizens, rather than the tortured and dishonest schemes of a few hundred politicians in Washington. Never forget that people who frantically point out “enemies” for you to fear and hate are usually the people you should be afraid of.

Above all, remember that you are not alone. The Democrats will desperately try to make you feel alone, in the coming weeks. It’s a lie. You don’t have to look over your shoulder to see the great body of Americans who share your values and beliefs, and your determination to remain in control of your health, wealth, and destiny. We’re here. We always have been, and always will be. Be brave, and be of good cheer, because nothing frustrates those who demand fear more than laughter.

It's the true genius of the radical elite conservative power structure to be able to gin up outrage among the very groups that would most benefit from a policy like health-care reform.

People are angry, but it is not in their best interest to react emotionally.

Two possibilities exist: that Obama is a subversive bent on destroying America for some obscure reason, or that corporatist interests and their mouthpieces are afraid of changing a system that is making them rich at the expense of Americans.

"What's the Matter with Kansas?", indeed...

So, let me get this straight. When whiney liberals tie up traffic, disrupt business and cause general chaos when protesting a war, that's patriotic.
Posted by: Fed Up | August 10, 2009 8:56 AM

So let me get this straight! When those whiney liberals protest and you on the right call that un-American..........it isn't?

Have our heroes of the past realty fought and died to allow a few fringe extremists to threaten the lives of congressional representatives, accuse our president of being another Hitler and take over the very spirit of democracy that is inherent in free speech and sober discussion of opposing views?

http://www.political-buzz.com/

Pelosi has a lot nerve after her years of bush bashing rants. Back then an exchange of ideas was healthy for our country, now it is un-american. She really is a twit.

Of course, it's Unamerican. Since when does stifling debate and disrupting community gatherings constitute democratic practices. The Republicans and their sponsors, The Corporations, know what time it is. They know if they allow the People to gather and debate Healthcare, they lose, big time. So, these thugs and intimidators, have decided to go for broke !! "Who cares, if America perceives us to be Unamerican ? ", is their thinking." We have nothing to lose, but a whole lot of money to gain, not to mention power over people's lives and health. "
Our nation is being re-visited by the Corporate Bullies, from yesteryear, when American workers wanted to unionize, for 8 hour work days and 5 day work weeks. What did these American workers get for their constitutional demands to unionize ? The clubs and guns of the goon squads of the The Corporations. They are back, America. Maybe not with their clubs and guns, this time, but that too, makes sense. All they have to do is to scare the daylights out of our elderly, our sick, our injured, to achieve their undemocratic goals. Deny America a choice in their healthcare coverage. Force Corporate America's healthcare version down our throats and if you don't like it, pay even more !! We have many goons to pay and lobbyists to wine and dine.
It is all in your hands, America. We can take back our healthcare system or we can leave it to the Corporate types and their goon squads !! It's crunch time !!
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.

Pelosi has a lot nerve after her years of bush bashing rants. Back then an exchange of ideas was healthy for our country, now it is un-american. She really is a twit.

When the sheep in Animal Farm were shouting, "Four legs good, Two legs bad!!" They were being riled up by the pigs to drown out debate.

These people showing up at the town halls are doing the same thing as the sheep in Animal Farm. They don't even know what they're angry about.

The right wing media gets them so stirred up with misinformation and then urges them to raise a ruckus in public.

There's nothing scarier than an angry mob fueled by fear and hatred. These people love America, but really aren't the brightest bulbs in the nation.

The GOP and conservatives are taking advantage of their ignorance and stirring them up through PR firms which operate behind the scenes.

If they showed up to actually debate, that would imply they are willing to listen to an opposing view point. There would be heated debate if there were actually a point to where they were coming from.

I'd highly recommend reading George Orwell's, "Animal Farm." You'll see right through the GOP playbook.

This isn't the 1st time Nancy Pelosi has called hard-working Americans Un-American. She did the same thing when referring to enforcing immigration laws. She is a liar and this move reeks of desperation from the Democrats.

More here:
http://thevocalobserver.blogspot.com/

Just say NO to this Healthcare bill

I'm middle class, and about to retire in 5 months. I have read a lot about what Obama is going to do to Medicare. Our costs will go up, the coverage will not be there for many things, and if we can keep our main Doctor then put it in writing in the bill. Pelosi and the Democrats are saying one thing, but doing something else. This is what thousands, if not millions are worried about. Obama is changing everything, but the the benefits are not there. Give everybody a chance to read the final version, and then figure out what needs to be changed. My personal opinion is that I wouldn't let Pelosi, or Obama take out the thrash let alone change everybodies Health Care.

Subsidizing new cars is un-American.

So I guess all those Code Pink folks and all those others that would rant and rave over the last eight years were un-american too?

I'm getting really sick of politicians that are such hypocrites.

Why not put it on the 2010 ballot, and let the "Un-Americans" decide whether they want this or not?

Oh, and Senator McConnell hasn't engaged in "disruptive" meetings? he's one of the biggest obstacles there is.

as far as Speaker Pelosi's comments - how about all congressman try the plan you are proposing for americans - if it works SO GOSH DARN WELL, then it should be good enough for everyone. In the meantime, realize that the American public is really really angry and fed up - NOTHING is getting done in Washington that is of benefit to the citizens.

Just who do they, Pelosi and Hoyer think they work for? It is obviously not us, We the People. The gaul of our elected officials, to tell us how it is unpatriotic to protest, while they have exempted themselves from any Health Care plan they ram down our throats.

Just who do they, Pelosi and Hoyer think they work for? It is obviously not us, We the People. The gaul of our elected officials, to tell us how it is unpatriotic to protest, while they have exempted themselves from any Health Care plan they ram down our throats.

I find it hilarious someone from the GOP is talking about using scare tactics.

If Obama would declare war on global warming that would be more in line with republican tactics.

Flatliners,

This country was founded on protest. Was Martin Luther King Jr un-American? How about teh VietNam War protestors? Code-Pink? I missed Speaker Dimwit calling them un-American as they have disturbed the halls of Congress on multiple occassions. Wasn't it our current Secreatry of State that said "Dissent is Patriotic"?

Finally, recently protestors in Iran, fighting for their freedom for days, got no support from our democratic leadership, but a few everyday Americans confront their Congressman and the flatliner leadership goes ballistic.

In Germany in the 30's, there were the brown shirts, today's version is the purple shirts of the SEIU.

Yeah, that Constitution and that thing called the First Amendment are pretty "un-American" these days, too.

"Un-american"?!?! That's an utterly hypocritical statement by Pelosi! She comes from the Bay area, which prides itself in its tradition of "civil disobedience" and weekly protests over some of the most random issues, no matter how extreme the views. And ever since she's become speaker of the House, she has pretty much run Congress without any input from the GOP. Talk about drowning out opposinig views! ridiculous!

Of course it's un-American. And cowardly. Try to intimidate and shout decent people down. What's next, book burning. These people are one step away from being modern Nazis.

Just do what Bush use to do. Don't allow anyone from an opposing party in, and make sure the audience is comprised of nothing but supporters with pre-approved questions written by the administration.

I think that the more the Pelosi and friends complain, the more people will come out against the Obama reforms. I just checked into Whitehouse.gov/realitycheck- n It is a farce. The talking heads just spout out more of the party rhetoric, and no details such as page and paragraph to back their answers on the health reform bill. Such total lack and disregard for any sort of transparency about this plan is what is scaring people, not legitimate angry discourse searching for the truth.

If you believe Pelosi, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I wouldn't trust her and her LIES as far as I could throw them. She is by far, the biggest LIAR ever to serve in congress. I can't wait until she is up for re-election. To see her defeated would be the pinnacle of how much America hates her. As far as the town halls being rigged, she should really know that the people attending them are showing how much the democrats are a bunch of money grabbing, self serving, bunch of crooked politicians.

Sir,

The people disrupting the discussions have been lied to over and over. They are being inflamed and encouraged to act like thugs and ignorant idiots--let's call them that!! They bring their children dressed up in teeshirts picturing our president as Hitler. They urge the kids to shout along calling others "Nazis". I have watched video from many of these meetings and it sure looks UN-AMERICAN to me. It looks insane--but these people bear half the blame themselves. The issues they scream about are straight off Comedy Central.

They have been told about--death councils, private insurance made illegal, mandatory abortion, mandatory death counciling, canceling medicare, prescription drugs rationed, socialism, nazism and on and on...oh by the way the racist President is not really an American.

These are the lies propagated by the GOP and their front groups. They don't want any calm reading or discussion---that might show people that this bill is in America's best interest. The opposition wants this to go away without discussion. They want all these people to just go home divided with visions of mayhem to remember.

Just like the WMD's and Mushroom clouds of years just past--the GOP hopes Americans really are as stupid as they were before--believing Bush and Cheney.

I hope they wake up to their embarrassing behavior and search out the perpetrators of all the lies.

Gee, this looks like an issue people feel strongly about.

Maybe Congresspeeps should pay attention.

Making incoherent gutteral noises is not "protest" and does nothing to promote democracy. Yet that's all one can divine from what these folks are doing. They don't ask questions (for they don't want an answer). They don't make coherent points. They screech and yell talking points that they don't understand.

I'm all for free speech. But the level of "speech" you get from these folks is scarcely better than what you get in a barnyard.

Of course these protests are un-American. However, it must also be understood how we define "American."

In the dogmatic Pelosi world, anyone who disagrees with her (and the liberal Democrats) is obviously un-American. If you do not agree with her, you are a clearly a bad person.

Fine. We're un-American for trying to be heard. We're un-American for not wanting to passively accept another multi-million dollar program being shoved down our throats. We're un-American for wanting a say in our healthcare options.

We will also be un-American the next election cycle and vote you sorry excuses for "representatives" out of office. If you don't want to listen to people voice their concerns at town hall meetings, be prepared for us exercising our voting rights. Or are you planning to take those away too. Unbelieveable.

Jeff, I'm with you these lunatics need reeducation. Maybe some marijuana to relax them. It's a gas, gas, gas...

Poor scared White people!!!
Just wait till the talk show guys tell them to show to meetings up with guns!
I don't think we'll have to wait too long for that.

Un-American? Compared to what? Or would Mrs. Pelosi rather not talk about her performance in office for the last two years of Bush's second term? Nothing says "un-American" like a member of Congress who vows to stand up to a fascist president if elected, then kisses up to him.

jeff said:
" It's a democracy. When you figure it out, let me know. "

Well, except that it's not.

And no one is required to blindly follow our elected officials.
If they wanted to pass a law that all people named jeff can be dope slapped at will would you just go along, jeff?

It is ludicrous for Pelosi and Hoyer to criticize the town hall outcry as un-American.

If they would only disclose all the details of the proposed healthcare reform and conduct hearings on it in open forums, they might actually have a chance at achieving some reforms. But that is not what they are really interested in. They want to drive their program down people's throats without any chance for debate. That is really what is un-American.

Oh, and by the way, be sure to ask her about her new jet fleet. . . purchased after she and other Dems criticized business leaders for flying to DC on private planes.

These liberals are despicable.

All they do is protest. Wasn't protest the highest form of patriotism to them?

oops, were sorry, are we not allowed to speak our minds in this freeee society. Do we not have rights. Such as freedom of speach anymore. Is this no longer a democracy. Nancy Pelosi needs to step down. She and some of her close companions are bringing this country to a stand still or down. They dont care about the american people, they care about themselves and what they can get out of it. We need to stand united for what we believe. Not what they want us to believe. Be heard no matter what or how you feel about an issue. Dont let someone else decide what you are going to do with your money and your life. This is the United States of America. Not some third world coutry and we need to take it back out of the hands of those who have forgotten who the work for, We The People. Not we the Congress. Stand up and be heard.

Of course these protests are un-American. However, it must also be understood how we define "American."

In the dogmatic Pelosi world, anyone who disagrees with her (and the liberal Democrats) is obviously un-American. If you do not agree with her, you are a clearly a bad person.

I think the administration is un-American, they hide the truths from the American people. It's obvious they are trying to violate our freedom of speech. They do no know how to respond to opposition. They want to rule the country their way and dictate to us. One of these days they will see an uprising of the American cirtizens, the likes that have never been seen before, that is if God does not take control and punicsh them first as he di d in Bible times, which by the way I do not thingk anyone in the administrqation beleives in. They either totally lie about things or say one thing and do just the opposite-including Obama. Acorn is unAmerican also and supported by the administration thought they deny it. You see signs pre made for Health care, those oppsing are handmade signs. So who is organized certainly not the opposition iof the Health Care. Stop trying to take away our Constitutional rights you treasonous DEMS.

What's unamerican is not having a national debate on what kind of reform the american people want. What's unamerican is trying to ram through a bill before anyone has time to read it or respond to it. What's unamerican is insulting your constituents as "dupes" and "Nazis".

Luckily for us they couldn't get it in before the recess, so we can actually read it and respond.

Why is it the President's way or the highway? Wasn't that the criticism of Bush for 8 years? (though he bowed down to his Party quite often) Why can't we debate and talk about it? What is Congress afraid of?

Why not look at other countries as models like Sweden or even France, instead of only the UK and Canada?

No, we are bad for speaking up, even called "Brownshirts", heaven forbid we excercise our right of assembly and freedom of speech. Suddenly that's unamerican! Dissent is not the highest form of patriotism anymore, now reporting on dissent is!

Wow that even goes beyond Bush and the Patriot act.

Another thing (all you people calling the protesters "lunatics")...is the health care system perfect? Not by a long shot. Is it the best system in the world so far. YES. It is reasonable for people to be concerned about the proposed plan when our representatives say in public forums that they haven't even read the plan yet but are still prepared to vote for it. This is not what I call reasonable representation. Do you sign contracts or give your own money away without knowing the details? Why would you want other people to do that with your money? And, make no mistake, it is our money that people are throwing around. Frankly, I'm tired of working so Uncle Sam can take such a huge piece of my earnings ... my paycheck, groceries (tax), gasoline (tax). Who do you think pays for all of this eventually. It's called trickle down for a reason.

If it's unAmerican, then what's it all about? If one cannot protest?

"We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate"..

WHAT?!?!?

Fine. We're un-American for trying to be heard
Posted by: rose | August 10, 2009 10:33 AM

You miss the point there Rose. It seems un-American to make it so "all" can be heard. You want to express your concerns....fine, but let everybody be heard. What part of that don't you get?

If Nanny Peeloser's health care "reform" is so great, then why don't she (and the other congressional backers of this bogus legislation) agree to be covered by the same plan??? They are writing exemptions for themselves and their staffs into this "law". And why won't the demoncraps allow the proposed bills be released for review? I don't trust the government! If your looking for a helping hand... look no further than the end of your own arm.

Sen. Mitch McConnell said, "Attacking citizens in our country for expressing their opinions about an issue of this magnitude may indicate some weakness in their position on the merits,'' McConnell said. "This is an enormously important subject. Of course American citizens are concerned about it. And many of them are upset about it."

I say, Sen. McConnell, there is a huge difference between expressing one's opinion in a civil manner, engaging in healthy debate, vs. shouting slogans, hanging congress members in effigy, and disrupting meetings to prevent work from getting done.

If these people are upset about the proposed legislation, they should speak at the meetings in a rational, civil way and express their views. While I think calling them "un-American" goes a little too far, they are close. Disrupting the democratic process is close.

Why doesn't Nancy Pelosi push for congress to look into these "activities". She could set up a, "House Un-American Activities Committee".

This is a convenient diversion for democrats. As for protesters, if they go to a town hall meeting with the sole intention of yelling and shutting down debates, they are idiots. If they go there to grill democrats about a poorly written bill, they are patriots. For Pelosi or anyone else to dismiss opposition to the four hair brained committee versions because the former group exists, it is a convenient excuse to cop out of addressing the fact that no one is really happy with these bills. Liberals want single payer. The only issue is that most of them, including BO, lack the courage to admit it. Conservatives don't want another big government entitlement program, especially one that has no real prospect of controlling costs. The current bills don't put either side at ease. The problem is that BO has invested considerable political capital into this, and for his own sake, needs to deliver something - anything - that could be fairly called "reform". The result will be a half-assed compromise that helps no one. Then BO will do what he does best - scour the country campaigning that whatever excuse for a plan that passed is actually helping, because he knows that perception is far more important than reality in politics.

Please show me a government run program that is not bankrupt or been looted by corruption. How is Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc, etc? Now you want to run health care. Nancy please get in your new taxpayer purchased private jet and just go away forever.

Some of these people screaming at the meetings are there at the request of lobbyists for the insurance industry. They aren't just worried citizens. So therefore they are just disrupting meetings for financial gain.

How very George W of her!

Sadly the basis of my opinion is formed on the poor management history of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. As these are presented as a one legged issue very few are opposed to the basic premise of any of the above programs or Health Care. This too will become a money pit. It may provide better health care to those who do not have it today but at what cost?
The only way to be heard by the presenters is to make nose. Otherwise we are behaving as the sheep that too many in Washington know we are. As voters our memories are too short to hold our representatives accountable and our representatives are too focused on following the money.
This is a non-partisan issue. Sure it is not likely a Republican lead Congress would tackle Heath Care. There are issues not likely to be championed by a Democratic Congress.
Term limits for Congress have become a necessity as our population has become too apathetic to get involved. We too have skin in this game. We do not get to vote on every piece of legislation. But we do get to vote on our representation. Pay attention, take a side, know how your representatives vote then hold them accountable with our vote.

Kudos to Pelosi! It is un-American, as these lunatics are breaking up these meetings, intent on no one hearing or understanding the truth of the health care reform bill. Even Palin does not understand the specifics of the bill.
Its unbelievable that most posters here attack Pelosi, and talk about government not being able to "touch" their health care. Yes, as long as you have health care, Pelosi is out of line, and the reform bill stinks. Which means that you could care less about the tens of millions of people in this country with no or limited health care. Frankly, it is those who support this status quo, who are the un-American ones.

Have any of the people supporting the House bill read a sentence in it? I received information about the bill listing the page and location of the section in question. I went to the House web site and checked the claims for accuracy and I was shocked to find out that the claims from the email were accurate. Before you blindly follow anyone from the left or the right please do some research and read some or parts of the bill. This bill slowly over time introduces many policies that will lead to the government controlling far more than most supports realize. An example of this is that the government will have the right to access you bank accounts and take money to pay for the program. Some might think that this is good but at the very least I implore you to get beyond the talking points and seek the truth yourself.

It's about time that leaders like Pelosi and Hoyer stood up to say "ENOUGH!" The people who are complaining in here that they think Obama, Pelosi, Hoyer, and other non-conservative/non-GOP politicians are trying to stifle dialogue...are PRECISELY the same people who screamed and shouted-down opposing viewpoints during the nightmarish Bush years. The problem apparently is that their aging (or dead) mothers and fathers can't slap the "protestor's" faces--HARD--and send them to their rooms without dinner because of their appalling lack of manners. "Dialogue" means that everyone has a chance to speak and be heard...no opinion is better or worse than another...everyone who takes the time to learn what they're talking about and expresses themselves with dignity and respect for themselves and for the others who are present deserves to have their say--but if they are NOT respectful toward others, all bets are off.

We can agree to disagree. And people who are not concerned with interfering with the lives and choices of others...CAN find common ground to agree on SOME things. That is the nature of democracy. Shouting louder, being more insulting, and being obnoxious toward fellow citizens is not a free ticket to get what you want--especially when a majority doesn't want it. Give me a reasonable, thoughtful, respectful explanation of what you think and why...and I will think on it myself...act like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum because he's FOR ONCE *not* getting everything his own way, then I'm going to tune you out and treat you like the foolish bag of hot air (with smoke and mirrors) that you appear to be. Screaming about your "rights and liberties" being taken away by having a reasonable public discussion over how to fix a broken healthcare delivery system is a reflection on how YOU people were so willing to take away rights and liberties of others--as long as it didn't affect your OWN--and the whole radio talkshow-shouting match-insult-those-who-disagree-with-you-bombast attempts to control the lives of others while you sit back waiting to be served...that all got exposed for the farce that it is, and you've seen the results over the past two election cycles.

I don't like paying taxes, either...but I don't like paying $230 for a gauze bandage post-surgery because my for-profit health insurance company is trying to make a buck...or because the hospital HAS to find a way to pay for the uninsured patients they are required by law and by ETHICS to treat. I'm tired of listening to you whining freeloaders who expect to get everything for nothing and refuse to pay into the system you take advantage of, while you relax in your suburban estates, spend weekends in your lakeside cottages, and take your sixth vacations of the year. Take responsibility for fixing the system you created for your own selfish benefit, step up with solutions that hurt YOU as much as they have been hurting the rest of us, or take it up the backside like you've been so happy to have the rest of us do for so long. Be part of a civil discussion--or keep your opinions to yourself as much as you have tried to keep others' opinions from being expressed during the Nation's detour through the conservative national nightmare of the 1980's, 1990's, and 2000's.

Whatever else these protests might be, they're anything BUT Un-American. We ALL have a right to voice our opinion, our disapproval, and our concerns in an orderly, democratic fashion. I'm appalled that Pelosi & Hoyer are saying such things. Trying to denigrate and insult the opposition, calling people un-American because they disagree with you is what we've come to expect from REPUBLICANS. This is absolutely unacceptable and both of them should be apologizing.

Bush called his protestors "very american" and priased the differing opinion . Hypocrit Pelosi and her liberal compassion must be at a major conflict. How can it be nancy. Harras George but not Barry. I HAVE HEARD PROTEST against barry being called racist! HA HA! Run and hide every one or wear the scarlet racist letter!

The Democrats war on the American people is astounding. I've never seen anything like this. Whatever happened to the mantra of the left during the Bush years that "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Obama seeks to shut down speech.

ABC has attempted to try something different--actually investigating the story! ABC's Steven Portnoy attended a local town hall meeting in eastern Maryland to try and root out the clandestine operatives sent by evil insurance companies, and the supposed organized groups of Republicans who--as the DNC claims--are apparently just bitter about losing the 2008 election. Unfortunately, undoubtedly much to the chagrin of the liberal left, Portnoy came up empty-handed. In fact, he reports:

There were no lobbyist-funded buses in the parking lot of Mardela Middle and High School on Tuesday evening, and the hundreds of Eastern Maryland residents who packed the school’s auditorium loudly refuted the notion that their anger over the Democrats’ health care reform plans is “manufactured.”

“I went to school in this school,” a man named Bob told me. “I don't see anyone in this room that isn't from Mardela Springs right now.”

“We’ve been quiet too long,” said a woman named Joan.

Wow. An honest account of a town hall meeting and of those attending! A tiny victory for Americans attending town hall meetings to voice their concerns with health care. But for the future, we should probably don some sloppier clothes so as to avoid suspicion.

Well, I guess it's time to reread "The End of America" by Naomi Wolf. Quite an interesting and timely book.
Everyday our "elected officials" who are "representing us" are subtley (sp) chipping away at our freedoms.

Nancy Pelosi is a rabid nitwit. What is "unAmerican" is our government trying to ram through Obamacare - bill HR3200. Read the highlights for yourself which can easily be found on the web. It is a huge power grab by government and a horrific plan. All these jokers need to be voted out of office as obviously they are thinking they breathe rarified air and they know what is best for us. The big rush to pass this legislation is because they were afraid the American people would get a chance to find out what is actually contained in the bill. Can you say complete government control over every aspect of your life? Do not be deceived into buying into this plan.

I think the best solution is that all versions of health care be finalized and published to people to read. Next in 2010 they should do a refrendum on the choice and let American People vote for the choice instead of Politicians making decisions for us. They have proved that they can not make a good decision for us, so let We The People Make Our Decision.

Why is it if a person disagrees with the present administration that it must be staged? Just because I do not agree with Nancy Pelosi’s health care plan does not mean I am Astroturf, it does not mean that I am less intellectual than she and it certainly does not mean that my opinion is not valid. Why is it unreasonable to think that the government that has given us social security, Medicaid, Medicare, the VA and the post office is incapable of controlling a health care system that will be 20% of the US economy? Why is it unreasonable to expect our elected representatives actually read this bill before passing it?
If protests against present administrations are all staged then I guess President Bush was not near as unpopular as the democrats would have had us believe.

Why is it that if people are against a democratic issue they are viewed
as mob-like, but if anti-war protesters are out there then thats
democracy in action., this is so hypocritical!!

How can it be possible to know which it is without knowing who the protesters are. People who claim it’s orchestrated should be challanged by the media to name names and affiliations or to provide other proof of their claims. Vague and general accusations without specifics are nothing more than plays out of the Clinton’s “vast right-wing conspiracy” playbook aimed at the naive.

What hubris for the democrats to try to explain any opposition to their agenda as “mobs.” This is the mobilization of a citizenry at its best. Normally the democrats love this but I guess they only like it when it happens by them and not when it happens to them.

If anyone has seen any footage from these town halls they are filled with veterans, elderly men and women, and even registered democrats so it is ridiculous to think that these people are set up by the GOP, its pretty tough to get actors that good. The DNC are always trying to come up with excuses to opposition to their horrible programs. You never heard from the GOP when people where protesting the war in Iraq or protesting against George W Bush did you? Its called the first amendment and now stated on the white house blog they are asking citizens to report “fishy” statements from people to the Whitehouse that are against Barack’s Health Care.

we have as U.S. President a "community organizer". Whose campaign organization has emailed "talking points" to its loyalists about accusing their opponents of Community Organizing! Which talking points are faithfully echoed by the media.

Saul Alinsky's radical Chicago disciples have long been known for accusing their opponents of the very actions they, the radicals, practice. In fact the support for ObamaCare is manufactured, astroturfed, and coordinated by the White House.

This Country has a mental problem.......Blame anything and everything else on something rather than yourself.

The people are tired of Government "this or that", and may actually want Government to leave them alone. Simple. I guess all the protests in the past in Europe when the WHOLE CITY shows up is "Un-European"???? They've had Government Everything shoved down their throats for so long that EVERYONE is sick of Government.

I remember not too long ago when it was considered un-american to disagree with the president. what was mcconnell's stance back then?

The problem isn't with the protesters, the problem is the misinformation coming from Washington. The current Healthcare packages floating about Washington are undefined and difficult to navigate.

With so many unknowns amongst multiple packages, we should not be surprised to find so many who are fearful of how this is all going to turn out. The current press by the OA isn't helping the situation one bit, because the unrealistic time frame (ie. demand) is only adding fuel to the fire. Congress needs to reorganize and refocus to give us their best work in a single reform. Having multiple packages floating about is exposing their weakness because they themselves cannot present a unified front.

Misinformation will kill any idea, whether good, bad, or indifferent. Congress needs to settle down, think this through and tell the OA to wait if necessary. This next expansion of government has the potential to put millions at risk and is already forecast to cost us Trillions in expense. Lets slow down to do this right. We cannot afford to get it wrong.

If anyone is Un-American, I would say it is Nancy and her gang of sleazy weasels. For all appearances, it looks like our leadership is attempting to lie to all the people, all of the time.

Hey Silva....

Why do BOLD and color phrases in this story to draw attention to specific indivduals (Palin...obama) and certain phrases?

Shouldn't the story stand on its own or do you just want YOUR view to be noticed?

I think if you have this many people upset by something, maybe instead of calling them names and complaining to the media you (as an elected official) should listen to what they have to say to make sure you really are representing them the way they want to be represented.
That is your job, right?

How do Pelosi, Hoyer and Obama feel about the civil disobedience used to address racial discrimination and the Viet Nam war? Was that un-American?

Obama speaks derisively about defenders of the status quo. How does he feel about the status quo on abortion?

McConnell's remarks about this being "an enormously important subject" are right on, for all sides. Like it or lump it, free speech cuts both ways.

These lefty fascists like Pelosi would be really quite funny... if WE weren't the ones they were planning to control, that is.

Now the DNC is deploying AFL-CIO palookas while at the same time hypocritically dismissing Obamacare opponents as paid shills -even running TV ads to slander them- and delirious SanFranNan is seeing imaginary Swastikas.

This should make clear to anyone just what these power-drunk elitists think of your opinion.

Note that whenever Obama, Emanuel, or Gibbs are asked about why polls show SO many people oppose their misguided Cap-n-Trade and Obamacare proposals, they ALWAYS segue-right-into “we need to educate the public…”.

LOL- save your breath... Constitutionally-aware American patriots don’t take lectures from Marxists.

http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com

Put the entire Bill in writing and in the newspapers so we can see it in its entirety,we're not all dumb. Is the Bill for U.S.Citizens only or will a lot of illegals benefit as usual ? The only thing un-American are all the illegals; a lot of them are old and did not come here to work send them all back to where they came from.

I'm beginning to think that the Obama administration is like Nazi Germany. Pelosi heads the Gestapo and Reid the SS. The Fuhrer is Obama himself. None of these folks have red the bill! It obviously is full of holes that could end up killing Americans. Put a business process in place instead of Congress to fix this mess and let the people speak!

I guarantee that when this legislation is passed, 90% of these protestors will be the first ones in line to take advantage of the program and its provisions.

You can always tell when the checkbooks of those right wing "foundations" and such have been opened up, because the number of right wing posts just shoots up, like toadstools after a heavy rain.

And in this instance they coincide with the thugs who are trying to intimidate and "shout down" anyone who tries to participate in civil discourse at public meetings.

Paid trolls, First Amendment rights are not absolute and you are not permitted to shout down or intimidate the speaker who has the floor.

So it looks as if the President will have to conduct the meetings himself.

Then, when you try to move in on him or shout him down, you'll be referred to a Marine who has something he wants to show you.

Look up Pelosi and Hoyer's election money. They both take lots from the HC industry.

So I suppose a better form of protest is when Code Pink attampts to assault Sec of State Rice with red-painted hands, or ACORN gets goons to patrol polling sites to make sure that everything is on the up-and-up? Give me a break, Nancy.

I think they should be treated just like the anti-war protestors: Set them up in "Free speech zones" miles from the sites of the town halls. I bert all the Republican will agree that is a fair solution, right?

Be kind. Pelosi operates with a diminished capacity.

Whitehouse.gov says that the costs incurred by the gov't insurance plan will be funded by eliminating the waste and overpayments from the Medicare system, and that Medicare benefits "will not be affected". Now, what happens if these "cost-cutting" measures don't work or are never implemented? Will Medicare benefits be reduced or will the tax burden imposed by the new program be increased? This is what people are concerned about when they yell at their congressmen "leave my medicare alone".

I see the moronic Republican fringe has learned how to type. Maybe, next, they can be taught what a democratic process, is ! It sure isn't shouting down other Americans. It sure isn't intimidating older Americans, or sick Americans, but those goons know that already. Their Corporate marching orders don't allow for honest debate, just end debate. What great Americans, the Bush&Cheney fringe, turned out to be !!
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.

It's amazing how many don't seem to get the real issue here. HELLOOOOO!!!!! It's not about your freedom to question people about your concerns on healthcare, its that the freedom to shout and drown out all citizens concerns doesn't exist. Disrupting a democratically held town hall meeting to the point that nothing is answered is anything but democracy. HELLOOOOO are you all that thick? Time after time, the right proves that "rabid" certainly apllies to them.

Whitehouse.gov says that the costs incurred by the gov't insurance plan will be funded by eliminating the waste and overpayments from the Medicare system, and that Medicare benefits "will not be affected". Now, what happens if these "cost-cutting" measures don't work or are never implemented?
Posted by: A Once and Future Skeptic | August 10, 2009 12:30 PM

Do you mean like how the Iraq war would be funded by oil?

They completely lost me on the health reform bill when Obama stated that not passing it would "ruin his presidency." Now I understand what's important to him -- how he looks and comes off and NOT what is good for the American people. Can we say shallow? And Pelosi is the biggest un-American. Since when did socialism become an American trait? The protests are just beginning and this administration has divided this country more than anything.

America's voice is viewed by Pelosi, Hoyer and the LIBERAL democrats as un-American, because it is attacking their personal agenda. So who's (Pelosi, Hoyer and LIBERAL democrats) interests are they really representing - theirs or America's?

If I hear that "folks can keep their doctor and insurance if they want" one more time, I think I will scream!! You can only keep them if your employer keeps them!! I hope these senators and congressmen's families are screaming at them since they and their "immediate" families only get to keep their federal health plan. The rest of their relatives will have to live with what they want to jam down our throats. Let's see Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd go to Canada and England for their cancer treatments if our care is so terrible!!

THE RIGHT TO QUESTION POLICIES IN A NON-PHYSICAL BUT VERBALLY AGRESSIVE MANNER IS AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE!! HOW DID WE WE EARN THIS RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?? WITNESS THE BOSTON TEA PARTY, THE REVOLT AGAINST ENGLISH TYRANNY, THE CIVIL WAR, YOU NAME IT!! THE WEAKNESS OF THE HEALTH BILL BEING JAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS IS EVIDENT BY THE PEOPLES VERBALLY AGGRESSIVE REACTIONS. MOST AMERICANS DO NOT WANT A GOVERNMENT-RUN ANYTHING!! IF THEY DO, EITHER THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER, OR THEY WANT DEMOCRACY TO FAIL. I FOR ONE WON'T STAND FOR IT!! WE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PRESERVE OUR FREEDOMS!! HEAR US OBAMA!!! LET FREEDOM RING!! WE DON.T WANT YOUR SOCIALIST AGENDA!!

Once again, calling us "fringe" and "radicals" and "rabid" will not convince us that Obamacare is the best option.

There truly isn't anything "liberal" about liberals. They are in favor of First Amendment rights when it suits their needs. However, when a citizen dares ask for an honest answer from their elected representative, and in return gets nothing but bureaucratic doublespeak, it angers sensible people.

Measures such as restricting town hall access to hand-picked groups of supporters, or canceling them altogether, do not create an atmosphere of informed deliberation. Targeting the vast majority of Americans who have expressed disagreement with your plans, by setting up White House tip lines and email addresses to coordinate political - and, increasingly, physical - attacks does not show the proper respect for their opinions, and their right to express them. Americans do not cast their ballots every four years to elect a dictator, and challenges to a President’s agenda do not constitute “un-American” behavior.
We understand this is a difficult time for Obama, Pelosi, and all Democrats. Persuading people is much more difficult than defeating them. The more your agenda requires defeating large segments of the American public, instead of persuading them, the more it is doomed to failure. You could begin a renewed effort at persuasion by using one of your frequent TV appearances to explain exactly how your health care proposals are justified by the United States Constitution, which you have sworn to uphold and obey. Such an explanation would be very informative for a public that has not received the best education about the Constitution from the government school system.

Another step on the road to persuasion would be publishing every single page of your health care plan, with absolutely no white spaces or sections to be filled in later, then attending a televised town hall in which random citizens are allowed to quiz you about the plan. We are certain you would be able to field such questions without the aid of notes, teleprompters, or coaching from your political handlers, since you would never disgrace your office by submitting “historic” legislation you don’t understand perfectly, in every detail. Democrat senators could hold similar meetings to demonstrate their intimate knowledge of the bill. In fact, we demand it… for every major spending bill Congress considers.

Obama must act forcefully to end the violence he has inspired. Call a press conference, along with Democrat congressional leaders, and the leadership of the SEIU and AFL-CIO. Denounce the violence and make a public commitment to free and robust debate, which will continue as long as the American people feel it is necessary. Apologize for the rhetoric your party has thoughtlessly deployed. Acknowledge that all Americans are your constituents, including those who didn’t vote for you, and renew your vow of respect and fealty to all of us.

The entire Republican party can absolutely make stuff up, no question about it, 100% lies, no factual basis whatsoever, outrageous, known false stuff about euthanasia and "death panels" and denying care to people that are no longer "productive", stuff that's right out of the most venomous propaganda playbooks around, weird-arsed, depraved, paranoid stuff that would be perfectly at home in a Henry Ford tract about the secret methods of the evil Jews or the like -- and not a damned news outlet on the planet is making a story out of the fact that these supposed leaders of their party are gleefully lying through their teeth about all of it, or that the "teabaggers" carrying these selfsame lies into public meetings aren't just angry Americans with a different point of view, but people spreading known, 100% damn-freaking-false-and-false-from-the-very-first-time-it-was-uttered crap, and intentionally doing it so loud that they hope nobody can possibly shout them down.

There's no "he-said, she-said" on a statement like "Obama's coming to murder my handicapped child." There's no damn panel of talking-head experts that need to be involved, there's no need to call on a lefty and a righty to have an honest to God televised freaking debate over where or not Obama is really going to go appoint a new government panel devoted to the task of murdering America's mentally handicapped kids. There's no Gigantic Public Calling to have the Wall Street Journal or some other Fail-in-a-fishwrap rag devote column space exploring how Americans may be "divided" on the probability of future government child-killing squads.

What. The. Hell? If outright, astonishing, venomous child-murder-related death propaganda by some of the most prominent figures of a nation's political-supposed-discourse is not big, come-on-and-get-your-damn-Pulitzer-already news, what the hell is? But no -- all we get from such luminaries as the big boys of CNN these days are public statements about how even their own damn pundits can lie their backsides off about whatever made-up disproven BS conspiracy crap they want, because that's just the way free speech is supposed to work, you little garbage commoners.

I sure as heck hope all these news outlets are being paid off or something, because I would hate to find out, ten years from now, that they really were ignoring the circuslike butchering of democracy out of star-spangled, crap-flinging, head-in-the-butt incompetence. They had better be on the take, and not really this damn unwilling to do their jobs just as a matter of dimwitted, crap-peddling laziness.
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http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/political-media/cnn-president-brushes-off-criticism-of-lou-dobbs-continued-floating-of-birther-theories/

Listen up!...,I really believe this is not a left-wing, right-wing, or a liberal vs, conservative issue. This is a American citizen issue. And I believe its time to get down to business and change the way we elect our public officials. Its time to end the era of career politicians! "ITS TIME FOR TERM LIMITS".

First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This laid out freedom of religion, of speech, of press, and of protest. It also gave the people the right to petition against the government to make them pay back for some harm they might have done

Pelosi/Hoyer are stating, accurately, that protesting for the sake of drowning out the other side's views is un-American. It is not civil discourse. I highly doubt that the tactics being used by the Repugs were on display at the Constitutional Convention. They love to wrap themselves in the US constitution and American flag but have no appreciation for the civility in which our founding fathers debated the very freedoms that they enjoy today.

Don't worry, Don, your love for your socialist masters will save you, as the Dems need psuedointellectual people like yourself to confirm their cherished beliefs: the masses are too stupid to make decisions on their own, and consequently, the government must choose for them for their own good. Embrace the socialism of the National Socialist party as envisioned by Pelosi and company. They need your love, and your obedience. Maintain your cognitive dissonace, as the Dems count on obsequious palladins to satiate their lust for power and control.

Funny how democrats are now on record saying that protesting and civil disobedience is now un American. Its curious how A very short time ago they thought differently. Personally I can't think of anything more American than free speech and disagreeing with the elected officials who work for and are paid by us. I thought that Obama was a layer for ACORN, who's basic reason for being is to disrupt. Isn't that what Chicago community organizing is all about? this is the height of hypocrisy.

If only the Repubs had cared as much when Bush and Cheney were lying through their teeth and ramming the Iraq war through Congress. The Dems are going to do to the Repubs what they did for the entire Bush disaster and that is comletely disregard your comments and feelings on every issue. The truth is this bunch of loud mouth, uneducated, red-necks don't even know what they're protesting. Reality check, Repubs. You got voted out of office in huge numbers because your politics are as old and dusty as McCain's assumed brain. Your blatant disregard for the well-being of the American people is shocking. We all know these "protestors" got a robo-call from the RNC telling them that Obama is going to sit up on a throne and decide who lives or dies and Pelosi is going to force their daughters to have an abortion, so they go dragging their knuckles out into the street and screaming about something they haven't bothered to research themselves. These "tea-baggers" are the same ignorant slobs who sat on their fat butts for years and never questioned anything that the Bush/Cheney war machine was doing behind closed doors and lying on an hourly basis about. The truth is Repubs, Health Care legislation will be passed, without you. Along with a lot of other bills. Obama tried to reach out to the Repubs and all those Repub congressmen who said at the inauguration that they would support the President, lied once again. That lasted about a day. The Dems don't need the Repubs in Congress. The Republican Party is a sad joke. You allow old fossils like Mitch McConnell and John McCain to be your voice in Congress, only highlighting how hopelessly out of touch you are with the 21st century and then you have your media whores like Rush, Ann, and for heaven's sake, Michelle Malkin to speak for you. Not to mention the lying, thieving ex-governor of Alaska. Please run her, it will make 2012 all the funnier when we re-elect Obama. Looks like the "Great Uniter" not only made the entire world hate the Republican Party, he split it down the middle. Good riddance.

Posted by: Mrs. Jesus | August 10, 2009 2:16 PM

Hey Silva....

Why do BOLD and color phrases in this story to draw attention to specific indivduals (Palin...obama) and certain phrases?

Shouldn't the story stand on its own or do you just want YOUR view to be noticed?

Posted by: Stan in Chicago | August 10, 2009 12:03 PM

Those colored and bolded phrases are thing we have here on the internets called "links". If you push that thingy with the buttons next to your keyboard around untill the little arrrow is on top of the colored text, and then press the left button, the magical internet will get more information on what it's talking about through the series of tubes and put it up on the TV like thing you are looking at right now. I know this is pretty new fangled technology, but give it a try!

As Thomas Jefferson once said.
"There is nothing wrong with a little revolution now and than to voice ones' opinion."

Anti-Healthcare reform protesters are not "concerned citizens" they are paid corporate lobbyists and Republican partisans, including many here I suspect.

Here's one who was proven to have lied about her affiliations. She certainly did bear false witness. Hopefully some aspect of fraud and/or racketeering law also applies because that should certainly not be legal. Lying about who you are makes the political process less representative, less transparent and more divisive.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/health-care-protester-exp_n_253579.html

why does pelosi think if a person says what he or she thinks they are un american.If Pelosi can get her stuck head out of Obamas butt, and start thinking about what she is saying, she faces to be looking to not being in office. because the people will not vote her back in to office and she will not get one of the new big jets the congress wants..

why does pelosi think if a person says what he or she thinks they are un american.If Pelosi can get her stuck head out of Obamas butt, and start thinking about what she is saying, she faces to be looking to not being in office. because the people will not vote her back in to office and she will not get one of the new big jets the congress wants..

So I suppose a better form of protest is when Code Pink attampts to assault Sec of State Rice with red-painted hands, or ACORN gets goons to patrol polling sites to make sure that everything is on the up-and-up? Give me a break, Nancy.

Posted by: SteveC | August 10, 2009 12:21 PM

No, having the goons and thugs screaming and shouting within the hall making sure no other viewpoint is heard and intimidating the citizens who are there to calmly discuss the issue is much better.

Bill, I think Ornery has it spot on....there is some SERIOUS money pouring into this thug campaign right now, and it is showing up even here. I see no names that I recognize and they are all simple-named authors....sorry Bill.

It is interesting to see how this all unfolds, and to watch all the gears at work. While watching it, all I can think of is Lee Atwater and Hitler's propoganda principles. People are a bunch of sheep and all they need are some paid commercials, some paid posters, and some paid "activists" to get their fears stoked up.

It is clear that we are all watching a pug party in its death-throws and are clearly trying the overt lying techniques and overt propoganda to shore up their party. I hope the gear winchment rot in a bad place for what they are doing to this country.

Unbelievable.....especially from Pelosi whose district includes the Corporate Headquarters of Cisco Systems who "LOBBIED AGAINST" the "BUY AMERICAN" part of the stimulus program....why.... because Cisco imports 100% of all their manufactured products and they would have lost out on major stimulus $$$.

How the hell did Pelosi ever get in ANY office pray tell me? Maybe we will get lucky and she and "her mob" will use her new jet to go to...well, there must be some place for her. Yeah, I was thinking the same place. With her kinda people.

"If I hear that "folks can keep their doctor and insurance if they want" one more time, I think I will scream!! You can only keep them if your employer keeps them!! "

You can only keep your doctor if your employer does now. The next time your employers insurance contract comes up for renewal, if another provider can provide them coverage cheaper, they will take the cheaper coverage. If that means the new plan has a different group of doctors who are part of the program, and your doctor no longer is an approved provider, tough. That's especially true if you have an HMO through your employer. If they witch HMO's you are probably switching your doctor. That;'s the reality of our current system. Like it?

This is one of the many reasons why Americans are leaving the Republican party in droves.

BIG HEALTH INSURANCE LOBBY/CORPORATE SPONSORED REPUBLICAN TEA-BAGGER THUGS - THREATEN THE LIFE OF A DEM CONGRESSMAN OVER HEALTHCARE BILL:
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http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/dem-congressmans-office-his-life-has-been-threatened-over-health-care-bill.php?ref=fpblg
.

Remember when Bush and all those in the Bush maladministration called those opposing the "war" in Iraq un-American and unpatriotic?  That muzzeled crap lasted a few good McCarthyistic years--and it was the biggest control job ever.  Remember how Bush and Cheney--the biggest chickenhawks ever--always hid behind "the troops" during interviews and most questions about the constitution and illegal wiretapping, and about "emergency" war funding where the "emergency" lasted for seven years--and where the troops  were never given the protective armor they deserved or were promised?  Nancy and Steny are now playing from that dangerous rule book.  But then again, those professional and conservative protesters at the healthcare town hall meetings are inciteful bullies, and playing from the worst of the Rovian GOP rules.  Many aged republicans are turned off by the bullying because they bekieve it is plain bad manners.

Obama had an absurdly long time to get his views across on health care, FREE network time with a ban on any PAID and objective descent from his view. Then the Congressmen came home to LECTURE us unwashed masses on how right it all was and how stupid we would be if we opposed. Then they would not allow even a Doctor from the Congressman’s District to comment. No wonder the right has to yell, they won't listen!

Obama had an absurdly long time to get his views across on health care, FREE network time with a ban on any PAID and objective descent from his view. Then the Congressmen came home to LECTURE us unwashed masses on how right it all was and how stupid we would be if we opposed. Then they would not allow even a Doctor from the Congressman’s District to comment. No wonder the right has to yell, they won't listen!

According to the House health care bill, one will be able to keep their current health insurance if one chooses. BO agrees with this. At the same time, BO and democrats state that the current health care system is bankrupting this country. So, if the the current health care system is bankrupting the country, why are BO and the democrats saying we will be able to keep our current health insurance plans if we choose?

BillyR,

If there is all this waste and fraud in the Medicare system, shouldn't we be eliminating that now regardless of whether a health care bill is passed? I would think we would want that oney now, especially since the MONTH of July, 2009 the gov't ran a $181 billion deficit. That's not bad, that's only losing $6 billion per day.

* * * * *
Posted by: former Republican | August 10, 2009 2:17 PM
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Actually, you have a very dull sense of history if you believe “that protesting for the sake of drowning out the other side's views is un-American.” The lead up to the American Revolution included a number of violent protests fomented by patriotic groups such as the Sons of Liberty. Even the Boston Massacre was precipitated by an angry mob that had harassed British soldiers. In none of these instances were the people interested in hearing the British side of the issues any more. They had come to tell the British where to go.
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Many of the same kinds of protest, even violent protest, can be found throughout the annals of American History. There were violent protests and riots during the Civil War, during the rise of organized labor in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, during some of our wars, and at times in-between. You may not like this kind of protest, but it is, in fact, distinctly American.
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Democrats seem to be a little two-faced when it comes to loud protests like this (as Republicans have been in the past). I didn’t hear any Democrats condemning peace activists as “un-American” for interrupting congressional hearings. Nor did I hear Democrats claim that the massive Latino strikes and protests over immigration reform were “un-American” (even though many of the protesters were undoubtedly foreign nationals). But now the town-hall protesters are “un-American” because they are disrupting the dissemination of a message the Democrats really love and wish to promote. I wonder if these Democrat leaders realize they are turning into the very thing they hate about the Republicans. Uncle Joe McCarthy would be proud of them for their use of the “un-American” epithet to squelch dissent.

Obama just announced in Mexico that his next "mission" is to provide a route to citizenship to the illegal aliens in our Country. With that Obama is done. He may as well stay in Mexico.

Interesting that the Democrats stripped the requirement from the health care bill to use E-Verify. Of course if we make the 12 to 40 million illegal aliens citizens that won't matter. Anyone want to try and estimate what impact adding these new "citizens" to the health care plan will cost?

Anyone want to estimate how much the Country would save if these illegals were sent back home and taken off the Countries entitlement programs? California it is estimated the cost is 7 to 12 billion dollars per year.

Just asking.

The republicans have non sensible argument against health care reform, and they know it. That is why they are using misinformation and shouting tactics.

Nancey , looks as if you have been
taken over by a spell, since you lied about the CIA, The spell proper name is Obamatised. which give you the right to lie all you want.
Believing you is a different story.

I agree that to protest to simply disrupt is not in keeping with the American Spirit, but since when is protest un-American? Nancy and Steny best get with what it means to be American. There is a serious situation facing us in relation to health care reform. It the the right, if not the duty of the Aerican public to question and if neccesary to protest.

Republican goons and thugs? You mean like the SEIU purple shirts who put a beating on Kenneth Gladney while he was handing out flags in St Louis? Now I get it.

Also, who do I see for my lobbyest payola for this post? I'm obviously on the Big Pharma/Insurance dole since I am skeptical that our government can run National Healthcare more competently than they run Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the postal service, ad infinitum...

The only reason that Baltimore Housewife, Nancy P.L.O.-si, and MaryLander Hoyer feel secure in making comments like these is that they are both from Idiot States, states that will ignore anything they say or do, and vote them back into office. Of course, the help they get from border-jumping criminals, felons and dead people voting illegally for the Democrat ticket helps out a lot too.

Vivian wrote:

Remember when Bush . . . called those opposing the "war" in Iraq un-American and unpatriotic?
--------------------------------------

I don't remember Bush calling Iraq protesters un-American or unpatriotic. Please provide a cite and/or link.

There is a huge difference between "democrats" and the dem "leadership". I don't care which party you are from; if you don't have time for your rep's to read and digest a bill, we're all going to be screwed. Money is being sqwandered by the second and oops-here comes another "urgent" need to approve more spending. Whether Obama is in charge or not, we Americans are getting hosed! Speak up now even at the risk of being "unamerican". Pelosi is a mental midget. Ignore her and keep up the good fight! The FACTS bely the democrats' arguement. Dems can be passionate about their distorted ideas but conseratives (who have fought, and died for American freedoms) now must sit down and be quiet and ask permission to speak? Hell no! Voice your opinion America there's alot at stake. E. Goins MD

******************************
wonder if these Democrat leaders realize they are turning into the very thing they hate about the Republicans. Uncle Joe McCarthy would be proud of them for their use of the “un-American” epithet to squelch

Posted by: John W. | August 10, 2009 5:59 PM
*********************************
.

Nice to hear from you, Johnny W. Bush.

Did the Ron Paulite nutjobs let you out of Gov't Black Helicopter patrol today or something?

Nancey , looks as if you have been taken over by a spell
Posted by: Inky | August 10, 2009 6:05 PM
--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
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InkyClown,
You're my favorite Republican, you represent everything the 2009 Repug party is all about today - you don't know what the hell you're talking about and even if you did, you couldn't spell it.

It's not "Nancey", it's N-A-N-C-Y!

The only thing {Nancy} the 2 faced commie witch has going for her is an attractive hairstyle

Hey Johnny W,
Repug puppets who are shouting down and intimidating people at healthcare townhall meetings ARE not only un-American, they're also domestic terrorists, you slug.

un-American
We call it AstroTurf
They are the villains

Then says..
prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue

Nancy, look up the word Civil before YOU speak about other Americans being civil and maybe these people would not have to yell to get congresses attention, that they DON'T WANT THIS.

("Attacking citizens in our country for expressing their opinions about an issue of this magnitude may indicate some weakness in their position on the merits,'' McConnell said.)

Tell that to your protestors, McConnell.

OK, these Brown Shirts are not stating an opposing view, or debating the points in the bill.
They are in fact denying a real discussion of the details of the bill.
There are no 'death panels', dimwits.
That's a psychotic illusion from Mrs. Goebbels Palin.
There are no provisions to kill you, or your mentally challenged kids.

To express your views is American. To shout down others who are doing the same is elitist and unpatriotic.

We do NOT disrupt town hall meetings in America and we do NOT behave with incivility toward one another.

kojo has it right
Socialism is Un-American!

I think Nancy's $10,000 strand of Tahitian pearls have cut off the blood supply to her brain.

John W. Bircher, quasi-anarchist, government hater, libertarian, unemployed lawyer thinks it's McCarthy-like for Dem leaders to ask for a civil dialog at town hall meetings. I guess he figures it would be even more constructive if everyone were packing. What would Angela Keaton do?

* * * * *
Posted by: qomebd | August 10, 2009 8:46 PM
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Oooh, aren't we testy? A little too much starch in your brown shirt today, maybe?
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A war of words waged feebly, thy name is Democrat. If you think of these protesters as "terrorists," then I know you wouldn't know a terrorist if one fell on you. A terrorist is someone who uses violence or threatens the lives of others to cause terror among a population, or to influence the policy of a country through intimidation or coercion. Where is the violence? These people speak out loudly at these meetings. But speaking loudly is not violence. In which case, these people are not terrorists. You had better follow the lead of your shepherds and stick to the phrase "un-American." It may be hypocritical, but at least you can't be faulted for using a word that has no meaning other than what you give to it.
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Speaking of hypocrisy, did you denounce Code Pink for disrupting Hillary Clinton and McCain during the campaign, or for interrupting congressional hearings with the same tone and resolve? Or, perhaps, you were cheering them on like a good little Democrat drone? (Yeah, I thought so.)
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Furthermore, as you obviously failed to learn in civics (which your school probably never offered), speaking loudly and causing consternation and unsettled feelings is protected speech under the First Amendment unless it presents an imminent threat of injury or violence. As already indicated, these protesters haven’t crossed that line. You and your Democrat buddies are losing your reputation for being champions of civil rights for the way you castigate these people for their very American and lawful conduct.
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If your ideas cannot survive strong opposition, they aren't worth holding. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, you rube.

I guess he figures it would be even more constructive if everyone were packing. What would Angela Keaton do?

Posted by: Downside of the "Internets" | August 11, 2009 1:04 AM

They are packing. It's only a matter of time before there is some tragedy (although I have a feeling that folks like John W and his type won't see a few dead Democrats as a tragedy) as a result of the demagogues on the right and anger they have stirred up through their lies and overheated rhetoric.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/police-spokesman-confirms-that-gun-was-dropped-at-dem-congresswomans-event.php

This is the right in action: Angry, armed, ignorant. A truly deadly combination. Is their any limit to what they will, do to disrupt discussion and debate about healthcare reform? Unfortunately, I doubt it. Depending on morality and humanity from the far right is generally a bad idea.

Only a fool would think shouting down the opposition so that they cannot be heard has anything to do with"debate". Those are the tactics of people who know that they cannot win a debate on facts and reason, so they resort to other means. They know allowing to opposition to be heard at all will hurt them, and they have no rational response, so they respond with mindless noise to drown out facts they cannot counter. The less they have to say the louder they say it, until they are mindlessly shouting over everything. It's sad really. Reasoned debate on healthcare would be good for this country, unfortunately there is little reason, and even less debate from the angry strident empty minded right.

Pelosi & Hoyer & Reid they are the mad hatters. They make their own rules and decide who is UnAmerican and who is not based on their beliefs. Whatever you do don't cross them they will make you sorry. Wake up voters bring them back to earth and reality where they belong. Don't re-elect them put in someone that defends your right to speak out and vote for someone else.

There is only one infallible, unstoppable way to get Term Limits: NEVER REELECT ANY INCUMBENT!

Most folks think I am too unreasonable in asking everyone to NEVER REELECT ANYONE IN CONGRESS. They think it’s an extremist position. But that’s the whole point! Congress will never listen to us UNLESS we scare the bejesus out of them! To drive the point home, NEVER REELECT ANYONE IN CONGRESS.

The closer we get to a “Voter’s One-Term Congress”, the closer we’ll get to real term limits on Congress, and thus a “Citizen’s Congress.

There is only one way to make term limits happen : The American voter must IMPOSE term limits on Congress by NEVER REELECTING anyone in Congress. In other words, don't let anyone serve more than one term. That's the only way to teach them that the voter is boss! The “one term limit” can be eased AFTER we citizens get control of Congress.

Congress will never allow us to constitutionally term limit them. Our only choice is to NEVER REELECT them.
Remember too, it makes no difference who you vote for, as long as it is NEVER any incumbent.

Backup for this reasoning follows:

NEVER REELECT ANYONE IN CONGRESS
I believe that even a little success in a campaign to NEVER REELECT ANYONE IN CONGRESS would move us a long way toward a revolutionary change in American politics, much like 1776. Some of the reasons in favor of this approach:
• Gives us a one-term, term limited Congress without using amendments
• It would be supported by 70% of the country who want term limits for Congress
• It is completely non-partisan
• If repeated, it ends career politicians dominating Congress
• It opens the way to a “citizen Congress”
• It ends the seniority system that keeps freshmen powerless
• It doesn’t cost you any money. But you MUST vote! Just don’t vote for an incumbent
• It is the only guaranteed, infallible, unstoppable way to “Throw ALL the Bums Out”
• It takes effect immediately on Election Day
NEVER REELECT ANYONE IN CONGRESS.
Nelson Lee Walker of tenurecorrupts.com

* * * * *
Posted by: Downside of the "Internets" | August 11, 2009 1:04 AM
.
You are wrong. I said it McCarthy would have been proud at the way these Democrat leaders use the word “un-American” to squelch dissent. Can’t you read?

Are we living in Russia/or Korea? I thought we have freedom of speech/ Pelosi is a fool, and maybe she needs to start listening to the American People...Time to send Pelosi packing.....

I'm glad we have a great American like John W here to praise violent protest, and to proclaim how american that is. Patriotic Americans like John W know that talking is for whimps, and that real American patriots protest with their fists. He knows that violence is truly the american way to settle political disputes. He knows that listening to the other side is not only foolish, but that it is Un-american. Thank you John W for casting aside the silly notion that violence has no place in protest. I'm sure John W has shown his patriotism by roughing up the opposition, have you?

B. Springfield,
Trying to reason with John W. is a mug's game. The Swamp's most anal, bombastic, pontificator, twist himself in knots a boy scout would be proud of trying to defend the indefensible. To him it's an exercise, to the rest of us, a waste of our time.

OK, I’m confused, when did interrupting, shouting down, and intimidating fellow citizens in town hall meetings become “American”? What happened to that little civics lesson that advised one’s right to free speech does not extend to suppressing another’s? Perhaps I simply forgot the constitutional exception to elemental civility if one is really, really angry, huh.

* * * * *
Posted by: John Brown | August 11, 2009 4:49 PM
.
Wow, are you stupid. I never praised violence. I simply pointed out that violent protest is not “un-American” - in the sense that it is perfectly within the historical profile of Americans to engage in violent protest. The term “un-American” doesn’t carry with it the same moral opprobrium carried by such terms as “un-Christian,” “unethical” or “immoral.” It describes something that is out of character for “Americans.” You would have drawn howls of derisive laughter from anyone in the Nineteenth century (as you would today in many parts of the world) if you had claimed that Americans were particularly peaceful, civil or not likely to subjugate others. Just ask any native American Indian about it. My point was to be historically accurate. That’s why I said, “You may not like this kind of protest, but it is, in fact, distinctly American.”
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I also made a distinction (which was totally lost on you) between violent protest and loud protest. Loud protest (as I pointed out in a different post) is constitutionally protected speech unless it threatens to result in injury or violence. The people who are showing up to protest at these town-hall meetings aren’t engaging in violence. They are engaged in speech. They also think they have something to say that needs to be heard. And you know what? I’m not praising these people for what they are doing. I am simply saying that we risk denigrating our own rights unless we afford them the opportunity to be heard. One does not have to like another person’s conduct to appreciate that toleration of it is required if we are all to remain free.

John W. Bircher,
McCarthyism wasn't draconian for labeling people UnAmerican, it was the blacklisting that ruined people's lives, and the subsequent firing of liberals, lefties, Commies, socialist and anyone who associated with them. People were ruined, people committed suicide. Your analogy to Democrats is absurd , just as is most of the long-winded crap you write.

* * * * *
Posted by: Rube | August 11, 2009 5:03 PM
.
I’m glad you think so. I really am. It saves you the trouble of thinking, and it saves me the trouble of trying to exchange ideas with an Obama-parrot. Your immediate resort to fatuous name calling and your inability to debate speaks volumes about your character.

* * * * *
Posted by: B. Springfield | August 11, 2009 8:59 AM
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You haven’t a clue as to what “my type” is. I am personally committed to the avoidance of violence to attain any social or political goal. The use of force is justifiable only in self-defense.
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Nor am I a statist. Unlike Democrats and Republicans today, I do not look forward to living in a fascist country where the government gets to choose my worth or function in society, or limit my freedom of expression. But that is exactly where we are headed if people keep dressing up the phenomenon of loud protest at these town-hall meetings as some imminent threat to social order (like you have). If we can draw a line at loud protests using that rationale, then we can eventually re-draw the line at all protests, and then we can eventually burn some books. Happy goose-stepping.

Hey Johnny goose-stepper,
If I go to a community council meeting where my councilperson uses this forum to explain the cities decision to put in Light Rail, I don't appreciate some goons, paid or otherwise, disrupting the proceedings. They can be called upon and voice their opinions like anyone else. It's called responsible governance, something that you libertarian 1%ers don't understand.
And your "slippery-slope" argument doesn't fly either. Freedom of speech has limits just like everything else. But that's the way it is with you government-haters, and scorched-earth proponents. Just because someone doesn't think it prudent to have citizens packing assault rifles, you cry that "next they'll want to take your water pistol away", that old "slippery slope".
Regulations that have long been in place to protect multiple interest, like zoning, are decried by libertarians as invasive (that is, until someone puts a double-wide next to your McMansion).
That's why you anarchist can never win an election, your dogma doesn't fly. You're are 100% right about everything only in your own delusional mind.

* * * * *
Posted by: Downside of the "Internets" | August 11, 2009 5:53 PM
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Your argument is a complete red herring. Basically you are saying that calling people “un-American” isn’t like McCarthyism because McCarthy did so many other bad things. That’s akin to saying that a snake in the grass isn’t dangerous because grass is harmless.
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The fact that McCarthy did other bad things doesn’t change the fact that he labeled people “un-American” as a prelude to blacklisting them. It was the label he attached to everything he viewed as his enemy and or/the enemy of the American people. It was the “un-American” label that people came to fear and, therefore, caused them to be cowed and to restrict their own lawful activities in order to avoid notice. It was the face to face accusation that he made during congressional hearings that led people to ruin. He even called his little star chamber the “House Committee on Un-American Activities.” Thus, labeling someone “un-American” was very much a centerpiece of McCarthy’s tactics.
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Furthermore, I never said (contrary to your views) that Pelosi and Hoyer are guilty of McCarthyism in its full form. But one doesn’t have to do everything McCarthy did in order to partake in same kind of political thuggery. Politicians’ use of labels has long been the means of vilifying and marginalizing people without having to address their point of view. That’s precisely what Pelosi and Hoyer were doing too: Telling people to disregard the views of those engaged in loud protests because they are “un-American.” In which case, the analogy to McCarthy was valid despite the objections in your “short-winded crap.”

John W, you can't have it both ways. If the term “un-American” doesn’t carry with it the same moral opprobrium carried by such terms as “un-Christian,” “unethical” or “immoral.”, then your outrage at Hoyer and Pelosi using the term, and your connecting it to McCartyism, is without basis. Are you saying that McCarty was simply historically wrong with his use of the term, and that his calling othere un-american carried no-moral opprobium? Of course then you would also be forced to acknowledge that racism, sexism, slavery, torture, oppression, lynching and genocide are not "un-american" as well.

* * * * *
Posted by: Downside of the "Internets" | August 11, 2009 8:18 PM
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You can hold on right there, Buck. These town-hall meetings aren’t for discussions over a Light Rail. These meetings involve discussions over the largest expansion of the federal government since the New Deal. They also touch upon issues that are very personal and crucial to some people’s existence. And, yes, there are also a lot of people who are upset and confused - much more than one might expect at a community counsel meeting with regard to a transportation issue. The fact that you can’t appreciate or tolerate the difference in intensity is incredible.
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Furthermore, it is more than mildly ironic that you call me a goose-stepper when, between the two of us, I am the one in favor of freedom of speech and you want to see free speech abridged. Between the two of us, you are the one who is in favor of greater government control and less personal autonomy. Don’t look now, but, if the jack-boot fits, wear it.
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And, yes, I realize that freedom of speech has its limits. And, unlike you, I actually know where the limit is. Speech is protected under the First Amendment until and unless it creates an imminent threat of violence or harm. But you would deny people their constitutionally protected right to free speech long before they ever reached these limits. You want to see people prevented from engaging in protests at these meetings despite the fact that none of them have ever threatened an imminent outbreak of violence or created a danger to others.
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This is why the “slope” really is “slippery.” If you can bring yourself to abridge speech before it reaches its constitutional limits on the rationale of maintaining “order,” there is no longer a logical point at which to divide between the rights of citizens and the prerogatives of government. History has shown that, if maintaining “order” is the only test by which speech is left free, then only the most tepid and uncontroversial forms of speech would be remain free.
.
And you know what else? I never believed until now that I would have to explain basic First Amendment principles to a Democrat. I always thought the ACLU had taught them well enough. In your case, not only are you ignorant of the rich tradition of civil liberties in this country; you have gone in the other direction and earned your brown shirt. You should be ashamed of yourself.

* * * * *
Posted by: B. Springfield | August 11, 2009 10:07 PM
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You’ve almost hit the nail squarely on the head - but not quite.
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McCarthy was a jingo who erroneously equated everything good with America, and everything bad with being (you guessed it) “un-American.” To McCarthy, the use of the epithet carried the connotation of extreme moral opprobrium. Others developed that point of view by virtue of the pressure to conform to McCarthy’s mania.
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On the other hand, the normal denotation of the term “un-American” has no moral or judgmental content. English or Swedish habits and customs are clearly “un-American,” but they are far from being evil. And, yes, in this sense, racism, sexism, slavery, torture, oppression, lynching and genocide are not “un-American” in the sense that they have an unambiguous place in our historical heritage. That is true even thought such practices violate our ideals and the rich tradition of striving to secure civil rights. That’s because we do not always live up to our ideals.
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But when politicians like Hoyer and Pelosi start calling something “un-American,” you have to know they are not using the term in the latter, emotionless sense - such as would be the case if they were trying to say the protesters were acting like a bunch of Canadians. They are, in fact, using it in exactly the polarizing McCarthy-like sense of being something bad, unpatriotic and contrary to our higher American ideals. The point of the exercise, then, is to label the protesters in order to downgrade their behavior in the eyes of the public and, perhaps, to marginalize the message the protesters bring.
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My outrage at Pelosi and Hoyer comes from the fact that they are using this emotionally charged and propagandistic term to condemn people who are engaged in constitutionally protected speech; and they are doing it for the sole purpose of controlling the message. If they intend “un-American” to mean something that violates our higher ideals, then their own words are hypocritical. Fostering vigorous speech and debate is one of our highest ideals - and that’s especially true when the speech ruffles a lot of feathers and causes great discomfort. One would expect that these two politicians had been in Congress long enough by now to know better.

OMG, J.W.,
You are a laugh-riot. Shouting down fellow Americans that are trying to carry on a civil and constructive dialog is patently American, but condemning this behavior is "political thuggery"? In what kind of bizzaro world do you live in, son?
I know, I know, "I never said blah, blah, blah it depends on what the definition of is, is, blah, blah,blah. Save it, David Duke, you are certifiably nuts.

"My outrage at Pelosi and Hoyer comes from the fact that they are using this emotionally charged and propagandistic term to condemn people who are engaged in constitutionally protected speech;"

In other words the rrterm "Un-America" does acarry a sense of moral opprobrium, contray to your stement otherwise.

Also, you're wrong about the Town halls not being about light rail, and being about healthcare. That's simply untrue. Many of the disrupted town halls have been about issues other than healthcare.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/congressmans-temper-flares-at-town-hall-2009-08-08.html

"Rep. David Scott (D-Ga.), at a town hall meeting about a highway project in his district on Friday, accused audience members who asked about healthcare reform during a question-and-answer session of being outsiders who "hijacked" his meeting."

Inform yourself, then post.

Do you view disrupting a meeting to discuss a highways, to scream and shout abut healthcare, vigorous debate? Doesn't debate require allowing the other side to speak and to present their views? Would it be vigorous debate for me to go to a tea party protest to shout down the protestors, disrupt their speakers, and call them names about a topic unrelated to the one they were there to discuss?

* * * * *
Posted by: Downside of the "Internets" | August 11, 2009 11:29 PM
.
1. I am not your “son.” In light of your negative attitude toward civil rights, I’d deny it even if it were true.
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2. I said exactly what I said. My words aren’t a moveable feast. Your contrary suggestion is nonsense.
.
3. Apparently, you are unable to answer my points with logic, so you resort to name calling. According to you, I am now a goose-stepper, “certifiably nuts,” and a “David Duke” like character. These are positively strange characterizations of a person who favors free speech, especially when coming from someone who cares little for freedom. In which case, I think you’re both disingenuous and a bit loony.

* * * * *
Posted by: B. Springfield | August 12, 2009 9:45 AM
.
1. “In other words the term "Un-America" does carry a sense of moral opprobrium, contrary to your statement otherwise.” (Spelling corrections added.)
.
That is not really contrary to what I said. The term carries moral opprobrium only when used in the limited McCarthy-like sense. The word, in its normal use, otherwise does not. I’m sorry if my wording was too sloppy or vague to convey that distinction. But do take note of my use of the words “connotation” and “denotation” in drawing distinctions, and check out the difference between the two. When Pelosi and Hoyer used the word “un-American,” they are using it for its emotional impact in a McCarthy-like manner and not according to the normal meaning of the word.
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2. “Also, you're wrong about the Town halls not being about light rail, and being about healthcare. That's simply untrue. Many of the disrupted town halls have been about issues other than healthcare.”
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The op-ed piece by Pelosi and Hoyer was directed specifically at the town-hall meetings where the health care bill is under discussion. These health-care-bill-specific town-hall meetings are where the vast majority of the protests occur. You favor me with only one example where angry people in Georgia showed up at a meeting to argue with their representative over his support for a national version of what is failing in Massachusetts. That hardly makes for “many,” or even a majority, of disrupted town-hall meetings.
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3. “Do you view disrupting a meeting to discuss a highways, to scream and shout abut healthcare, vigorous debate? Doesn't debate require allowing the other side to speak and to present their views? Would it be vigorous debate for me to go to a tea party protest to shout down the protestors, disrupt their speakers, and call them names about a topic unrelated to the one they were there to discuss?”
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In the first place, in the one example you gave, the people showed up to protest because this was an occasion where they could confront their representative. Furthermore, questions concerning health care began after the representative had opened the floor to allow constituents “to ask questions on any topic.” That is hardly a situation in which the protesters were talking about stuff that wasn’t open to discussion.
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In the second place, I do believe that screaming and shouting can be a legitimate part of a vigorous debate. As my high school football coach used to say, “Listen to what I’m saying, and not the way I say it.” Loud, boisterous and emotional speech can sometimes convey meaning that timid and tepid words cannot.
.
And, yes, I also believe that everyone should be allowed to speak their mind on the issues - as long as they do not create any imminent danger of violence or harm. The way to handle the situation is not to shut people up and label them “un-American.” The way to do it is to assure everyone that they will get their turn to speak their mind. It may take for a substantially longer meeting, but it satisfies everyone. Even those who shout will eventually run out of things to say. The vast majority of them simply want to be heard on the matter.
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As for the tea party scenario, I would say yes - in the situation where someone (like a House Rep or Senator) was there. That’s why protesters show up at the town-hall meetings. However, given that tea-bagger’s meetings are largely grass-roots driven events, it is unlikely that any public officials will show up to them. It rarely occurs (so I’m told, since I don’t attend them myself.) Then again, walking into a tea-bagger meeting and raising a ruckus isn’t likely to convince anyone (so why would you want to do such a thing?).

John W.,

1. You are rigid, humorless, and hamstrung by literalness. People of my generation often referred to our younger brethren as "son". Of course, you would assume it a pejorative.

2. Re: Movable Feast. Your exercise in semantics is fun (not), but as unproductive as the goons disrupting Town Hall Meetings. There are things that we all like to think are American ideals, civil discourse is one. Not torturing people is another. Because there have been exceptions (thank you, Mr. Bush), doesn't make it the rule. It's a huge leap between calling these people's actions unAmerican and your flippant remark of "Happy goose-stepping". I haven't seen anything resembling the Democratic National Convention in Chicago yet, and don't expect to.
So you spend a whole paragraph explaining why you're not a goose-stepper, chill, for crying out loud, I was just messin' with ya because you were so overboard in your use of the term (IMO).

3. Now it's not true that I haven't tried to use logic to address your points. I tried to do so with the light rail example which you were so quick to ridicule and dismiss. I used that example because that was a very hot issue in my neighborhood. Why?, not just because of the proposed increased taxes that all in the state would bear, but the fact that some homes would be destroyed or severely impacted. People tend to get a little emotional about that.
I am not as in love with the status quo on health-care as you apparently are. I've lived in England, I've actually used their health-care system and it served me very well. I'm fortunate enough to have pretty good health coverage now, on average, but I was frustrated that I had to surrender pay increases for the last several years of my employment to cover medical cost that were increasing 4 times the rate of inflation. And, I'm concerned about all those you have no insurance.
I fail to see where stoking the fires with falsehoods and misinformation is going to fix anything (thanks hate radio and Faux News) And how is anyone going to answer these peoples concerns if they shout down the presenters of the meetings thereby depriving everyone else of the opportunity to learn, listen and participate? Anarchy doesn't serve anyone except those profiting by the status quo.

That is what concerns me, but you seem more concerned with making some arcane point that, yes, goon behavior is very much American, and to suggest otherwise is akin to political thuggery.

Mabe it's just me, John (not my son), but in this context I don't agree at all with your assertions that invoking the term UnAmerican is akin to McCarthyism or political thuggery. When Cheney said that a vote for Kerry was a vote for bin Laden, well that's a different story.

Oh, and I love the way you lecture me on the ACLU, after you twisted yourself into knots trying to justify the Bush Administration position on torture. Now that's what I call a movable feast. Peace J.W., give David Duke my regards (JK!).

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Posted by: dt☢ | August 12, 2009 3:11 PM
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1. I have never attempted to justify the Bush-Cheney position on torture. My position has always been that the anti-torture law, as written, would apply to water-boarding 99.999 % of the time - even thought the wording of the statute doesn’t make this explicitly true. That 0.001% that it didn’t apply would be a training exercise where the intent would be demonstrative not sadistic. The only talking point from the left that I ever resisted was the notion that the anti-torture law made water-boarding torture per se. I resisted that argument because the wording of the statute doesn’t support it. That’s a far cry from attempting to justify the Bush/Cheney position that a practice isn’t torture unless it causes pain associated with organ failure.
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2. I am not in love with the status quo in health care either; but I am far from certain that the proposed plan provides the right approach. However, this wasn’t the subject of my comments. The subject was Pelosi’s and Hoyer’s response to the protesters.
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3. I think I mentioned somewhere that I wasn’t praising what the protesters are doing. I said, however, that it is important that we tolerate this stuff to a certain degree to remain free. Contrary to popular perceptions of the situation, many of these protesters do not deprive others of the right to speak their peace or hear what others have to say. I would say most are happy to be heard, even if they make their points forcefully. Things could have been said at the outset to assuage these protesters, as in assuring them they will be able to have their say. Some of the problem is that they show up for what is presented as a propaganda lecture. Furthermore, talking to these people and openly confronting the misinformation they have been fed (if any) is a better remedy than making villains out of them (as Pelosi and Hoyer have done). I think it was Justice Brandeis who said that sunlight is the best antiseptic.
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4. And let’s be sure of one thing: the administration’s spin on the current, half-finished health care bill isn’t without its faults. I am unsure how anyone can be assured of any of the bill’s effects until the differences between the House and Senate version are reconciled.
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5. You have to know that the “un-American” epithet is used purely for censure and marginalization. That is precisely how and why McCarthy used it, and it was used the same way by Pelosi and Hoyer. The difference here, if any, is one of degree and not kind. I will agree that Cheney’s description of Kerry as a Bin Laden supporter was over the top and despicable for the same reasons.
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6. If my father were still alive today, he would be 95 years old. That might give you a vague idea of my age. It might also give you some idea why I think the “my son” wording is just a little too condescending under the circumstances.
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7. I would have to be a racist to have any association with David Duke. I am not a racist, and I resent the hell out of your suggestion that I am. So now you know what you can do to yourself on that account.
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8. You deserved the lecture about civil rights, ACLU references and all, because you just didn’t seem to get the idea of what a free society sounds like. I’m not sure you do even now.

John W.,
You're a regular Swamp filibuster. Look J.W., the David Duke reference was not to suggest you were racist, I've never felt you were in any way. It was meant merely to remind you that the Libertarian party hasn't exactly fielded the most desirable candidates, in fact some are down-right scary. I 'm sorry if you took it as a personal insult, I mean I wouldn't want to be compared to George Wallace, either.

Getting back to the original topic, I just don't think that P and H intended to play the un-American card in the sense you suggest, but I'll concede that it could be construed that way, especially if you have Hannity, Rush and the hate radio pundits reinforcing that perception (which they would even if they knew for certain that that was not the intent--e.g. Kerry's comments on getting an education).
No one would have cared much what McCarty said if he wasn't handed the power to crush those people he didn't like. Not only do the Dems in question not have that power, they've never given any indication that they desire it, or would use such strong-arm tactics to "reign in" the opposition.
Fot that matter, I didn't pay any attention to Cheney till I learned about the "mining" of emails and the like. One person I communicate with in Argentina was afraid to discuss politics with me because her last name is Mohammed.

Anyway, I'd be a lot more receptive to your lecturing me on Civil Rights if you'd spoken out against Bush's circumvention of the law to illegally spy on Americans. Why weren't you and other Libertarians making more of a stink about that? My guess, y'all had gotten too cozy with Republicans and didn't want to rock the boat. No hesitance on your part to attack P&H above as if they had just ordered extreme rendition for the teatards at Town Halls, though. Maybe your responses aren't proportionate in Degree to the perceived grievance, ever consider that? I'm just sayin'.

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Posted by: dt☢ | August 12, 2009 9:10 PM
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1. On May 21, 2007, I wrote in the Swamp:
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“To be absolutely fair, G.W.B. is in the running for worst President. He has made himself a dictator by ignoring the Constitution, by granting blanket non-compliance with the Fourth Amendment and the dictates of FISA with regard to domestic wiretaps. As a so-called conservative - i.e. a "neocon" (e.g. a "pseudo-con") - he has shamed himself by running up deficit spending. His conservative credentials have been further tarnished by his "Big Government" and foreign interventionist policies. He couldn't even take advice from a former P.O.W. and fellow G.O.P. member that torture and similar techniques are both wrong and useless. Whatever anyone else has to say about the Iraq war, it was foreseeable that toppling Saddam Hussein would create a power vacuum that couldn't be filled. As such, it was a very foolish move at the git-go.”

See http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/05/carter_today_didnt_mean_bush_w.html
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You can find where I made similar remarks here: http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/06/congress_subpoenas_white_house_1.html
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- and here: http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/07/by_frank_james_cindy_sheehan.html (where I tell ablinkin about grounds for Duh’bya’s impeachment.)
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- and here: http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/08/conservatives_tighten_screws_o.html (where I tell Jerry White what a tyrant Bush is for suspending constitutional rights).
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- and I could go on for some time giving you 15 to 18 or more sites where I have been openly critical of George W. Bush and his neo-con buddies for their disrespect for the Constitution and the American people.
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To make a long story short, you weren’t looking very hard if you can now claim I hadn’t “spoken out against Bush's circumvention of the law to illegally spy on Americans.” Not only was I agitating here on the Swamp, I was doing the same with my friends, acquaintances and anyone else who would listen (many of whom I was able to turn from being GWB supporters). I also know for a fact that a number of higher profile Libertarians were openly critical of Bush and his anti- and extra-constitutional methods. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barr#Criticism_of_Bush_Administration - and - http://www.antiwar.com/henderson/?articleid=8504 ) If you were me, you would be rather frustrated by your counter-factual feedback.
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2. Did it ever occur to you that Libertarians never get heard because they keep getting treated the way you treated me in this thread - i.e., portrayed as a bunch of radical, black helicopter loonies? If you would listen sometime and take off those judgmental lenses, you might hear what we are saying. I’m just sayin’.
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3. Oh, and BTW - David Duke ran for office as a Republican, not a Libertarian. It’s your weird misperception at work again, somehow thinking that Libertarians are some kind of ultra right-wing group - when just the opposite happens to be true.

The Libertarian Candidate for President in 2008 was Bob Barr.

Bob Barr was a Republican Congressman from 1995 until 2003. Duuring his time in Congress he was a strong supporter of the war on drugs, he authored the "Defense of Marriage Act", he voted for the Patriot Act, he voted for the AUMF in Iraq, He proposed that the Pentagon ban the practice of Wicca in the military, and he opposes abortion rights.

Tell us again how different Libertarians are from Republicans. Tell us agina how tLiberatarians aren't a right wing group.

2. Did it ever occur to you that Libertarians never get heard because they keep getting treated the way you treated me in this thread - i.e., portrayed as a bunch of radical, black helicopter loonies? If you would listen sometime and take off those judgmental lenses, you might hear what we are saying. I’m just sayin’.

J.W.,
I wasn't the one who made the "black helicopter" reference, but I've know a few who fit the bill. My perceptions of Libertarians was first formed when a large group of them made a huge stink about a proposal to implement fluoridation to our county water supply, many sounding hauntingly familiar to the Jack Ripper character in Dr. Strangelove.

Then, when I interned at a city planning assignment in a community strongly populated by Libertarians, most of whom also were also John Bircher's, I got another jolt. They hated government, any government. They hated regulation, any regulation. Since a big part of urban planning is regulating zoning, I thought this stance irrational.
Those I surveyed would say something like "I can build anything I want, any way I want, anywhere I want and the City, County, State can just bite me", to paraphrase.
Well, I don't need to elaborate on the implications of that approach, do I?
So maybe my "misperceptions", as you call them, were formed by the more fundamentalist faction of the Libertarian Party, the Rothbards, Rockwells, Rands, and von Mises's.

Murray Rothbard:

"We contend here, however, that the model of government is akin, not to the business firm, but to the criminal organization, and indeed that the State is the organization of robbery systematized and writ large.

And this one by Thomas DiLorenzo that really raises my hackle:
"Labor unions [pursue] policies which impede the very institutions of capitalism that are the cause of their own prosperity."
Geez, I guess safe working conditions, fair wages, descent hours aren't reasonable to bargain for. Maybe we should bring back child labor, too?
Before I became a shop steward, I saw two people die in accidents over a period of 5 years which were totally preventable had the company implemented simple and relatively inexpensive safety measures (and responded to grievances re: same) Instead, it took two deaths and some multi-million lawsuits to make it happen. Where was OSHA?, Reagan was President, that says it all.

Re: David Duke. He is aLibertarian, right? He ran as a Republican for strategic reasons, not so much philosophical reasons, right? When I said: " Peace J.W., give David Duke my regards (JK!).", you know that JK stands for just kidding, right?

I'll give you credit for speaking out against the Bush tyranny more than I remember, a lot more credit. But Libertarianism will never be mainstream as long as it vilifies government to the extent it does (something the Pugs adopted along the way). Capitalist are just as susceptible to screwing things up as are Bureaucrats. Furthermore, the Libertarian model of market anarchy doesn't lend itself well to matters such as healthcare and environmental protection.

Libs I know have always been open to a variety of solutions to our countries problems. Things seem to work best when a hybrid solution is applied, not entirely dependent on any one approach or ideology.

I don't appreciate being pigeonholed into any one ideology, e.g. Marxist, Socialist, just because I don't worship unbridled Capitalism. If the last eight years didn't teach us that, I don't know what will.

You seem to be a "kinder, gentler (but not more humble) version then the libertarians I'm accustomed too, but you have made faulty assumptions about me as well, J.W.

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Posted by: dt☢ | August 13, 2009 3:13 PM
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1. David Duke has never been a Libertarian. He was a (southern) Democrat before running for office as a Republican. And he doesn’t hold to essential Libertarian views. He would not agree, for example, that force should never be initiated to further social or political goals - especially where minorities are concerned. Ditto with regard to the preservation of basic civil rights. Libertarians believe freedom and equality are everyone’s birthright regardless of one’s place of birth, genetic makeup or melanin levels. That’s not the stuff of David Duke.
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2. Most Libertarians do not hold to the Ayn Rand school of anarchy. The vast majority of us are minarchists - i.e. those who believe that government carries with it the potential for evil and, thus, should be used sparingly for protection. This is not the same as saying government is always evil - as those you described seemed to believe. The minarchist view is essentially the same as that of many “classical liberals” during the American Revolution - including Washington, Madison and Jefferson (without the hypocrisy of supporting slavery). The position is best stated in Thomas Paine’s tract, “Common Sense,” where he describes government as the means for offsetting man’s moral lapses and physical inadequacies. The more depraved and lazy men become, the more government becomes the requisite fix, and vice versa. That, in turn, leads to the decrease in the free and efficient exercise of physical, moral and economic freedom of others. The best fix lies in people exercising more self-government. This is my position.
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The issue of economic regulation (where you and I differ) is a good example of this. A lot of government intervention has thwarted the natural correction mechanisms the market would otherwise use to prevent harm and loss. This regulation has effected a change of mind-set, whereby market players now believe they are privileged to operate without any restraints other than those the law sets. As long as the law and one’s morals share the same boundaries, the law will always have to correct moral deficiencies. Federal activity in the market is now (and has been) supplying moral hazard in the form of bailouts and subsidies, which will have the undesirable effect of making businesses less scrupulous about operating prudently. If, instead, we only had a system of laws to prevent harm to others, the natural correction mechanism would punish bad business practices with loss of profits, and reallocate the resources of those who can’t operate efficiently. Many of the same principles apply to environmental protection. If pollutants are harmful to the physical and economic welfare of others, there is no reason that government can’t intervene. But when government takes over the whole game, players are induced to relax themselves to conform to standards.
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3. I also think you took Rothbard’s comment out of context. If you read the entire essay (see http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard36.html ), you will see that he wasn’t referring to all governments under all circumstances. It was a piece of bombast on his part in an essay on the “Myth of Neutral Taxation.”
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4. I disagree that Libertarianism will never become a mainstream political movement. If the current level of government growth doesn’t abate, we could well see a political backlash. The Republican Party is not a viable alternative to express discontent with this trend. Contrary to your suggestion, “Pugs” do not shun or vilify big government. Republicans under Bush used big government to further their social, political and foreign jingoistic policies. That’s hardly what I would call vilification. (If you held your nose and watched the Republican presidential debates, you would have seen the contrast between Ron Paul’s views and those of all the other candidates.) Minarchist Libertarian views are consistent with those of Republicans and independents who favor fiscal restraint and less government. In any event, I don’t care so much about being mainstream as much as I do about being true to my own beliefs.
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5. No, you didn’t make the black helicopter reference; but you made comments that were the moral equivalent thereof. (Sorry, I’ve never seen the JK acronym.) I apologize if misjudged you on this point. On the other hand, I still find fault with your views as to where freedom must give way to order. As Patrick Henry declared during the Virginia Ratification Convention, “The end of government is freedom.” If we always sacrifice freedom to meet everyone’s acceptable ideas of order, then government is a failure.
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PS - I’m sorry I’m not humble enough for your tastes. I have been an advocate for most of my adult life. Decades of hard confrontation with hostile opponents has not helped my mind-set conform to genteel humility. This is admittedly a defect on my part.

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Posted by: Libertarians are Republicans in disguise | August 13, 2009 1:37 PM
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Bob Barr repudiated many of those positions before turning to the Libertarian Party. He has expressed outrage, in particular, over Bush’s jingoism, unconstitutional practices and the way the Patriot act was expanded to authorize domestic privations. Had he not repudiated these positions, he would never have garnered the support of the Libertarian Party. Even then, he had only limited success in gaining the full support of rank-and-file Libertarians. (Getting them to all to vote for anything is like herding cats.) You should also recall that Barr strongly supported lower taxes and a constitutional amendment to require the federal government to balance its budget. Those resonate well with Libertarians.
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Besides, the single most significant characteristic of a “right-wing” group is its support for statism - i.e., the belief in a strong, dominant government in preference to individual rights. Neither Barr nor the rank-and-file Libertarians prefer state control to individual initiative and liberty. The very opposite is true. That’s why they are, by definition, not “right-wingers.”

More views of American citizens from democratic "leadership"

http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/08/13/reid-protesters-are-evil-mongers/

I have to laugh at all the comments saying these people are "protesting" when they are actually trying to keep others from being given information about the proposals. Stopping people from being able to make up their own minds is not protesting, it's suppression. The people supporting these tactics would be the first in line to complain if their ability to vote was "protested" in this manner to keep them away from the polling station. Are people so blindly sure of themselves that they can't take even a minute to see if the opposing viewpoint has some valid arguments?