by Mark Silva
A new story line is developing in the ongoing war between the White House and the FOX News Channel, which started as a selective fight with a few commentators and has broadened to a contest between an administration and a network.
And some of FOX's competitors in the news business are starting to come to the defense of a network widely known for its conservative commentary but also involved in basic newsgathering.
Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, faced a question today from ABC News' Jake Tapper about the characterization of FOX as not a news network in the sense that, say, CNN is -- that's what White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, on CNN over the weekend, and what Communications Director Anita Dunn has said, on CNN over the past weekend.
"That's a pretty sweeping declaration that they are "not a news organization." How are they any different from, say...'' Tapper asked Gibbs.
"ABC...'' Gibbs said.
Tapper: "ABC. MSNBC. Univision. I mean how are they any different?''
Gibbs: "You and I should watch sometime around 9 o'clock tonight. Or 5 o'clock this afternoon.''
Tapper: "I'm not talking about their opinion programming or issues you have with certain reports. I'm talking about saying thousands of individuals who work for a media organization, do not work for a "news organization" -- why is that appropriate for the White House to say?''
Gibbs: "That's our opinion.''
Michael Clemente, senior vice president of news at FOX News, had this to say today about Gibbs' remarks: "Hundreds of journalists come to work each day at FOX News all deeply committed to their craft. It's disappointing that the White House would be so dismissive of their fine work and continue their vengeful war against a news organization."
And over at Politico.com today, they also were raising the question about what it means when a White House challenges a news organization.
"To some media observers, it's almost the definition of a "chilling effect" - a governmental attempt to steer reporters away from negative coverage - but the White House press corps has barely uttered a word of complaint,'' Josh Gerstein and Mike Allen write.
"That could be because of the perception among some journalists that FOX blurs the line between reporting and commentary - making it seem like not the most sympathetic victim. FOX denies its news coverage is slanted (though owner Rupert Murdoch says the conflict is great for ratings, Swamp note), and even White House aides say the network's top correspondent there, Major Garrett, is a straight shooter. But in its non-news hours, Fox mixes in a steady diet of criticism of President Barack Obama by its prominent conservative commentators Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck. It's a formula that works for Fox, with the highest ratings in cable news.''
MSNBC has its Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow -- "sick puppies,'' in the estimation of former President George H.W. Bush. CNN has its Lou Dobbs, the target of a "Drop Dobbs'' campaign by Media Matters, angered at his immigration rhetoric. It's been a long time since the days of Edward R. Murrow's Harvest of Shame, in which CBS News laid its opinions on the line -- or Murrow's own challenge of Rep. Joe McCarthy, whose anti-communist-in-the-government tactics are emulated by FOX's Beck lately.
So now some are asking: If one network's perceived "slant'' is fodder for a White House media crusade, how about the others? It may well come down to a question of friends and enemies -- and enemy lists invoke an entirely different era in White House lore.









Comments
Hey Beck and his crowd have an opinion show -- they really should be paying FOX for the time. It is not news,but having said that FOX does have a lot of nice new reporting -
Posted by: BigbadSouthsideJim | October 20, 2009 2:07 PM
The late, great Walter Cronkite says it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mKbetULhPU
Posted by: America the Stupid | October 20, 2009 2:08 PM
Hey Obama are you saying the videos lie?
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 20, 2009 2:20 PM
You want to report news, why not report on the Obstructionists, Republican-Libertarian gang in our Senate, that are blocking an extension of the unemployment compensation, for those whose benefits have run out !! Isn't that worthy of some coverage or must we suffer the slanted reportage of Fox Noise !! Men, women, and families are in need of assistance and we get entertainment, by way of a phony issue: Will Fox Noise ever make sense, will they ever cover a story from a neutral position !!? Those non-issues belong on Entertainment Today, not Corporate News Outlets !! Of course, Corporate America is in the middle of this non-issue, therefore, it's an issue !! The Bottom-feeders win again !! The Unemployed workers of America continue to lose in a Corporate America, while the Banks and Wall Street get handouts !! Way to go, Republican-Libertarians, you sure know how to hurt a nation and her less fortunate citizens !!
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME, ALIVE AND WHOLE. NOW.
Posted by: Don Fitzgerald, IL | October 20, 2009 2:21 PM
It is absolutely amazing that with all the problems and issues confronting the country the Obama Administration is spending its valuable time attacking Fox News because they do not like some of their reports. This is an attack on the Freedom of the Press by this Administration who promised so much positive change. What is next for Obama and his cohorts, an enemies list of reporters they do not like? The attacks on Fox News is an attempt by the Obama Administration to cover up its own incompetence in domestic and foreign affairs. It seems that Obama and his Cult are very thin skinned and cannot take any criticism. Someone should tell the President and his advisers that criticism and political opposition comes with the job. As President Harry Truman once said "If you cannot stand heat, get out of the kitchen." And it is becoming very obvious that the Obama Administration, who has had a big honeymoon with most of the National News Media, cannot stand any criticism.
Posted by: Depot- Jim | October 20, 2009 2:26 PM
The Obama White House appears to be emulating the Nixon White Hous.
This is not good and I commend Jake Tapper for inquiring about the Obama policy.
Posted by: Pat H | October 20, 2009 2:29 PM
Obama is too stupid to realize he has picked a fight he can't win. With every shot he fires at Fox, up go their ratings and down goes his credibility. His surrogates are turning him into a laughingstock.
Posted by: Wow, is that boy ever stupid! | October 20, 2009 2:29 PM
Notice that Richard Milhous Obama didn't add ABC, CBS, NBC, NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC or The Swamp to his media "Enemies List."
I think The Swamp should be proud of how hard they've worked to earn Obama's gratitude.
Posted by: Bruce | October 20, 2009 2:31 PM
This "controversy" seems contrived to me. Everyone knows that Fox News channel is part of the right-wing echo chamber, so why is it controversial when the White House calls them out on it? It is refreshingly honest to me.
That said, I think too much importance is given to Fox. Their audience consists of about 1% of the population of the United States.
Posted by: Quippy | October 20, 2009 2:38 PM
Odumbo should quit his whining CNN,ABC,NBC are all blindly singing the praises of this Nit Wit and he has the gall to complain about the only station that questions his insane decisions? What a crack pot!!!!
Posted by: Corey | October 20, 2009 2:39 PM
Last weekend Fox rolled out weasel KKKarl Rove to defend the cable broadcaster against the Obama administration's characterization of Fox as a partisan media outlet. Rove made two basic points:
- No White House should ever attack specific media outlets.
- It would be horribly unfair use MSNBC's "over-the-top, left-wing hosts" an excuse to attack NBC News, which has a separate news operation.
http://www.dailykostv.com/w/002269/
Naturally, it turns out the Bush White House did exactly what Rove now says they never should have done.
http://www.dailykostv.com/w/002270/
The letter Perino refers to is this one, in which White House advisor Ed Gillespie attacks NBC News for "blurring" the lines "between the 'news' as reported on NBC and the 'opinion' as reported on MSNBC."
http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/articles/1043229.aspx
Between Gillespie's letter and Perino's statement that the Bush White House was "fed up" with NBC News, we've got a clear-cut case of Karl Rove accusing the Obama White House of doing the exact same thing to Fox that the Bush White House did to NBC.
But there's one more thing that's important to point out. The so-called reporter who asked Perino the softball question reciting the accusations of Gillespie's letter and wondering whether NBC had responded was none other than Mike Emanuel of Fox.
Yep, the same Fox that now claims to be on an "enemies list" because the Obama White House had the temerity to accuse it of partisan bias was uncritically repeating Bush talking points that attacked NBC News.
So back then, Fox was working alongside the government to attack a news organization, and today they whine and howl like little babies when the current administration points out that they have an obvious partisan bias.
Oh well. It's their right to have a partisan bias. That's what the First Amendment is all about. But the mere fact that they have a right to broadcast conservative propaganda does not mean other news organizations -- or the White House -- have a responsibility to treat them like a serious news organization.
Posted by: Zac | October 20, 2009 2:39 PM
Fox News admits that their talk shows are opinion based, which is obvious and indisputable. It's not straight news and it's not meant to be. No problem. The problem lies in their "news" side. They don't have a straight news division like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc. They have propaganda disguised as news. That's a serious issue that must be addressed.
The problem with Fox News is that they have shown over and over again that they tilt their news coverage indisputably toward a right-wing perspective and refuse to admit it. They are not purely driven by the news. They are driven by an agenda.
Posted by: Gary M | October 20, 2009 2:41 PM
Fox has gone so far away from being about news rather than propaganda, that comparing their ratings to CNN or MSNBC is apples and oranges. Might as well compare the Disney Channel to CNN and see whose ratings are higher.
Once one moves the comparisons away from "cable news", Fox News gets clobbered.
For example, Meet The Press and This Week clean the clocks of Fox News Sunday's ratings. Fox News Sunday appears, not on Fox News (until reruns later in the day), but on broadcast TV's Fox Network (which is a separate operation, whose programming often mocks conservatives and even has a history of being targeted by conservative boycotts (such as the boycott that tried to get Fox to dump Married With Children)). Therefore, Fox News Sunday competes against the broadcast network news shows and gets clobbered.
Also, the #1 news web site, in terms of visitors per month and video streams consumed per month is msnbc.com, followed by Yahoo news and CNN.com. FoxNews.com is well down in the rankings.
Faux news is and has always been the official propaganda organ of the Republican party.
The right wing dead-enders who watch their programming still believe that they represent the majority view and Faux will never tell them otherwise.
Posted by: Gary M | October 20, 2009 2:43 PM
*******************************
Hey Obama are you saying the videos lie?
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 20, 2009 2:20 PM
*****************************
.
Clown in DC,
So, Obama is dismantling America and he's also accomplished nothing?
And the Repugs wonder why no one believes their BS anti Obama propaganda anymore?
They can't even keep their story straight about why they supposedly hate Obama.
Posted by: HHH | October 20, 2009 2:46 PM
When people call Faux news "right wing propaganda" and "the media arm of the Republican party" it isn't trash talking, it's the truth.
Check out these pro-Bush internal memos from Faux management. If this isn't propaganda I don't know what is.
.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200407140002
.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/19/fox-news-viewers-misinformed/
.
Posted by: former Republican | October 20, 2009 2:49 PM
The Daily Show did a great segment just last week showing how Fox News acted as cheerleaders for the 9/12 Tea Party protests and gave it wall to wall coverage, yet for a protest of almost the same exact size - the Gay Rights protest last weekend - they didn't send a single camera crew.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/daily-show-fox-news-prefers-teabaggers-over-gay-rights-marchers/
And The Daily Show didn't even mention a Fox News producer who was caught on camera riling up the crowds in the 9/12 protest and literally encouraging them to cheer louder. I don't think they sent a similar "news producer" to the gay rights march. To argue that they covered these protests straight without any leaning toward one side or another is comically disingenuous.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/19/fox-news-producer-caught_n_292529.html
.
Posted by: Faux News = Comedy Channel | October 20, 2009 2:51 PM
A few facts:
ABC employee contributions, 2008 election, per IBD: $160,000 to Obama, $5,000 to McCain--a 32 to 1 ratio.
2004-2007 journalist contributions, per MSNBC--125 contributed to Democrats, 16 to Republicans--an 8 to 1 ratio.
2008 IBD comparison of political contributions:
NBC employees $104,184 to Dems, $3,150 to GOP
CBS $45,508 to Dems, $966 to GOP
ABC $17,320 to Dems, $4,717 to GOP
Fox $40,573 to Dems, $0 to GOP
Fox News $1,280 to Dems, $0 to GOP
Surprised to learn this? You would be, if you depended on The Tribune or The Swamp for news.
Posted by: Bruce | October 20, 2009 2:54 PM
Obama is too stupid to realize he has picked a fight he can't win. With every shot he fires at Fox, up go their ratings and down goes his credibility. His surrogates are turning him into a laughingstock.
Posted by: Wow, is that boy ever stupid! | October 20, 2009 2:29 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.
Big deal... Fox will always win the ratings game, they're not a real news outlet.
Try again, Teresa...
Posted by: Bobbie Mobbie | October 20, 2009 2:57 PM
To Don Fitzgerald: In all your posts it appears that you do not have a clue on who a Libertarian is and what they stand for. A short definition of a Libertarian is:
LIBERTARIANS support maximum liberty in both personal and
economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one
that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.
Don, I bet you did not know that there are both Liberals and Conservatives that hold some or many Libertarian beliefs. I know many Republicans and Democrats that hold Libertarian beliefs but remain to their respective parties. So before you go on your usual rants I suggest you look up what a Libertarian actually believes.
Posted by: Depot- Jim | October 20, 2009 3:02 PM
"They don't have a straight news division like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc. They have propaganda disguised as news."
Pot, meet kettle. Only the blindest partisan could, with a straight face, describe these media outlets as objective.
Posted by: Gimme a Break! | October 20, 2009 3:03 PM
It's simply amazing that Obama and his incompetent flunkies have spent more effort trying to marginalize and discredit Fox News than they have in trying to disarm Iran.
Thanks for the Hope and Change, dopes!
Posted by: Chris | October 20, 2009 3:07 PM
"Never pick a fight with someone who buys their ink by the barrel."
I'm sure that quote needs to be updated for the digital age, but it makes a good point.
This is advertising suicide. Obama & Co. may not think FOX is 'fair & balanced, but a recent PEW survey shows that its audience is - almost as many Democrats watch FOX as Republicans.
And FOX's ratings are more than all the other cable 'news guys' put together.
This whole "bash FOX" is juvenile & boring when the moon bats cry about that network. But for the POTUS to wallow in that mud hole, makes him look petty, self-absorbed & vindictive.
It's a classic reverse "what would've been the reaction if boooshitler had done something this stupid?" The Left's head would have exploded! with cries of censorship & free speech!!
But, since it's an attack on something conservative, Obama's media lap dogs cheer.
But that's not hypocritical, or anything...
.
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 | October 20, 2009 3:14 PM
The reason why Fox is not a REAL NEWS CHANNEL is simply for these reasons:
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t.......PROMOTE and COVER their own protests.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200908280029
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t.... Lie about the total number of people at the rally THEY PROMOTED...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=380_1239836462&c=1
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t.... Force people at a protest to make more noise to look good on TV.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/200909180037
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t... Have NEWS ANCHORS that accuse the president of making a TERRORIST FIST JAB!
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200806060007
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t.... Have NEWS ANCHORS that calls the current administration a bunch of CRY BABIES
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/19/snubbed-by-obama-fox-news_n_292254.html
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t... Go out of their way to bash the current administration by using OLD FOOTAGE and lying by saying it’s recent footage, and CROPPING it to make it look like something else was said!
http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001014/
A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t... Pass off RNC press releases as their OWN FACTS (including the typos)
http://mediamatters.org/research/200902100019?f=h_top
All of the examples cited are from Fox’s so-called NEWS ANCHORS... not the Opinion people like O’Reily, Hannity, and Beck.
This should be pointed out because the line is blurred between journalism and opinion on Fox.
The video examples above are plain and simple, Fox can’t spin their way out of it. They have been called out on the carpet time and time again... EVERYONE KNOWS THIS! Including those reporters taking up for Fox News.
Posted by: ms pisces1 | October 20, 2009 3:23 PM
Fox News = Pro Wrestling.
Just as fake, just as dumb and entertaining, just as cheeseball, and appeals to pretty much the same demographic.
Everyone knew it was fake but for years they denied it. Eventually even they admitted it was "entertainment". Everyone knows Fox is fake but they refuse to admit it. That makes them not only partisan but dishonest.
I have to admit, I would pay good money to watch that pro wrestler smack John Stossel around again.
Posted by: Repugs are idiots | October 20, 2009 3:32 PM
"A REAL NEWS ORGANIZATION doesn’t... "
You're sourcing Media Matters, the Daily Kos, the HuffPost and LiveLeak to try to persuade us that FOX is the biased media outlet ??? Well, you know the old adage: stupid is as stupid does.
Posted by: Gimme a honkin' huge break !!! | October 20, 2009 3:36 PM
first off i think that fox covers the right wing stuff more just like all the other networks lean left more. all news is biased simply by how much coverage they give to any one thing.
the Obama white house has been criticized so much less than bush, and no left leaning network is questioning the president as much as fox. I think it is funny that Annita Dunn who started this thing loves the comunist chinese mass murderer chairman Mau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBDpL2dExY
Yes fox does not give as much coverage to gay rights as they did to the tea parties because gay rights are less conservative values which were covered by other media outlets who lean more left more.
On the other hand even an opinion show like Glen beck can do some amazing journalism like they did about the acorn prostitution scandal.
Posted by: leavemediaalone | October 20, 2009 3:38 PM
Where have I seen an administration act like this before? Smells rather like.... Nixon.
Posted by: 'Nuff said | October 20, 2009 3:39 PM
If we regular citizens tried making baseless blanket accusations and lies about Faux News, they would lawyer up and sue for libel/slander.
Faux craps all over the true meaning of freedom of speech, it's disgusting
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRx5ethd8JU
.
Posted by: Faux News: a 24/7 Political Operation | October 20, 2009 3:41 PM
Fox News has defended itself against administration criticism by saying the White House has confused its pundit shows with its news programs. But Fox's constantly, misleadingly disparages Obama and his administration in its supposedly straight reporting. Here are the ten of the worst examples;
-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/20/the-ten-most-egregious-fo_n_327140.html
-
Posted by: L. Votto | October 20, 2009 3:52 PM
Ah how things have changed. The wacko right wing nutcases were gaga over Fox "news" when the Bush administration darkened the land. They fawned, and Chris Wallace threw softball questions, and they questioned how patriotic others were, as they shook their heads. Now the tables have turned, and they are outraged--outraged I tell you --that they are being called out for being the hypocrites they are.
Posted by: gibster | October 20, 2009 3:53 PM
Hey Mark Silva, Rupert Murdock is correct ~ this is great stuff. Please keep these stories coming. I need the entertainment.
That Glenn Beck. What a genius. He’s got some pseudo Mao Tse Tung guy sitting on a stool, guarding a red Marxist phone, while he waits for Anita Dunn or some other suitable Mustapha minion to call in to argue a correction of facts or a revised version of the facts. I could have thought up "Big Frog Radio", but never would I have thought up this. The guy is a genius. I love this stuff. democrats should love it too. They can call in and talk to one of their Marxist heroes.
And, democrats, here’s a good Chairman Mao quote, totally suitable, I believe, for this august occasion:
“Despise the enemy strategically, but take him seriously tactically.” - Comrade Mao, Hero of the American democrat party
This is good stuff, M.S. Keep these stories coming. Django is down with the struggle.
Posted by: Django - N Exile In/Around the 30th Parallel | October 20, 2009 3:53 PM
You're sourcing Media Matters, the Daily Kos, the HuffPost and LiveLeak to try to persuade us that FOX is the biased media outlet ??? Well, you know the old adage: stupid is as stupid does.
Posted by: Gimme a honkin' huge break !!! | October 20, 2009 3:36 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.
Really? That's all you've got? So you're saying that video tape lies and shouldn't be trusted?
Ha ha ha!
Try a new post name Teresa, you've been busted again.
Posted by: moreofthesame | October 20, 2009 4:06 PM
I think that it would be more beneficial for members of the White House to talk to Fox. They will talk to Iran or Venezuela but an American news channel is worse? All it does is polarize the country even more which is the main problem more than anything else. And to compare what Obama is doing to anything Bush ever did would be to go against everything he stands for. He ran his whole campaign on not being Bush and continues to complain about him. Bush and Obama are different. It would be more beneficial for Bush to not go on controversial shows because he was a poor speaker but if Obama really wanted support and to unify the country with as talent for public speaking, he should get on Fox and make his point. He should be well prepared for the onslaught of criticism, fact-checking and skepticism but if he is right and amply prepared then he could get a lot of support from avenues he may not have suspected assuming he has a good message. I, personally, think that the message is something he knows that he won't get support on because its crap. It's driven on more than principle and its not pure which is why he is afraid because he knows Fox will rip every single controversial connection to shreads. I think that the more power the goverrnments wants to have, the more we should embrace skepticism and scrutiny.
Posted by: Will | October 20, 2009 4:15 PM
real news organization doesn't have a delusional paranoid rodeo clown (Glenn Beck) declaring his love for Adolf Hitler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhK8PuvkCBU
Nor does it have a political coverage team led by former Washington "Moonie" Times alums Bill Sammon and Major Garrett (both of whom have written books bashing Democrats and slobbering over Repubs.
http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=1189
Nor does it's owner (Rupert Murdoch) admit that he tried to shape the agenda on the war in Iraq.
http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=341
The biggest problem with Fox is NOT the nighttime circus freaks. It is the core operations of their news gathering, writing and editing. And this is the reason that no Democrat or progressive should EVER appear on Fox News.
Posted by: KingOneEye | October 20, 2009 4:15 PM
All the hatred that Faux spews works wonderfully for them since they prey on the stupidest people (Republican base) who are the easiest to win over as viewers. It reminds me of the Lottery--they raise a crapload of money off the backs of the people who can least afford to spend it on a lottery ticket.
Posted by: Kara Kyler | October 20, 2009 4:19 PM
"So you're saying that video tape lies and shouldn't be trusted?"
Obama does this all the time. Is that a problem?
Posted by: Teresa. Really. | October 20, 2009 4:30 PM
I demand better propaganda from Fox News. They are slipping since Big Daddy Rove use to send them their daily talking points.
Where is the nationalistic pagantry? The maze of lies leading you into a funhouse mirror room of regret?
Where are the memes that maim?
I for one, am DEMANDING better propaganda from Fox News, not worse.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY04gIruZ4E
.
Posted by: I wanna be a Republican idiot | October 20, 2009 4:39 PM
Clown in DC,
So, Obama is dismantling America and he's also accomplished nothing?
And the Repugs wonder why no one believes their BS anti Obama propaganda anymore?
They can't even keep their story straight about why they supposedly hate Obama.
Posted by: HHH | October 20, 2009 2:46 PM
Is that all you got. Now go back to the basement and wait for mommy to cook your supper. The proof is in the videos of the people Obama hangs with. The lies about unemployment, Obamacare, and Cap & Trade coming from Obama's WH every day is why I do not like the man. Its not hate the left has that base covered.
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 20, 2009 4:54 PM
One more pay off from the Obama WH:
In the special interest war over health care, the White House and congressional Democrats have the nation's drug makers and hospitals generally on their side; the insurance industry, not so much.
Now the bill's supporters are making a play to lock in the American Medical Association, the organization that says it represents 250,000 doctors and medical students in every state and congressional district. The principal enticement, a $247 billion measure making its way to the Senate floor, aims to wipe out a scheduled 21 percent rate cut for doctors treating Medicare patients and replace it with a permanent, predictable system for future fee increases.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i8RDSl65WFPHvC7xWMOPApdecI3QD9BEM6UG0
You get what you vote for. Chicago Crooks in the WH.
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 20, 2009 4:57 PM
All the News Networks and Newspapers seem to have a slant to them and sometimes they cannot even get the simple story right. I remember last year during the primaries that Hillary Clinton and her staff claimed that only Fox News gave them a fair shake. Does anyone remember back in 2004 Presidential Campaign when Dan Rather and CBS ran a story that George Bush was AOL on some of his Texas National Guard duty with no proof or documentation to back up the accusation. The group that researched the story for CBS told Dan Rather and his staff that they could not prove the story but Rather went on the evening news for a week with the story during the middle of a heated presidential campaign. Jay Leno at the time referred to CBS as "Can't Believe the Story." And does anyone remember just last week when CNN, MSNBC and some of the newspapers ran a story that Rush Limbaugh praised James Earl Ray and Slavery without researching the story. It turned out that Limbaugh had never made such statements but they were broadcast on television and appeared in the newspapers. Those News Outlets went on a quote in a anti-Limbaugh book and never did their research to find out if it was true. So singling out Fox News for being slanted really is not fair when they all are. And before some of you attack me for bringing up the Limbaugh example I just want to say that I am Not a fan of Rush Limbaugh.
Posted by: Depot- Jim | October 20, 2009 4:58 PM
Leave Glenn Beck Alone!
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A5SY3R_ZwQ
.
Posted by: Balloon Boy | October 20, 2009 5:31 PM
Faux is the Britney Spears of news. I just hope they continue to be exposed. We all knew that no one in a position of power in the mainstream media had the guts to actually fight Faux and really expose them. This is nothing new. Their competitors have helped to make them successful by falling for their propaganda and trying to fly right themselves during the Bush administration thinking that was where the "real Americans" were. Of course any dialogue that would attract real Americans was missing for the last 8 years.
No surprise, the mainstream media always feels like they need to support their own industry. Of course this is like the theater going to bat for the circus because it is all entertainment.
Fox is the worst thing happening in this country, it can be found in the background of the most nasty, hateful, lying, dangerous crap going. This is now at least being disgussed. If there was one thing I could wave Harry Potter's wand and rid the world of it would be Fox News.
Posted by: Viloa | October 20, 2009 5:40 PM
Obama does this all the time. Is that a problem?
Posted by: Teresa. Really. | October 20, 2009 4:30 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.
Yeah, and Obama is a fascist, socialist, commie Nazi who wants to kill granny, right?
Take the tin foil off your forehead Teresa - you've been busted again, try a new post name.
Posted by: Kathy | October 20, 2009 6:17 PM
Now go back to the basement and wait for mommy to cook your supper. The proof is in the videos of the people Obama hangs with. The lies about unemployment, Obamacare, and Cap & Trade coming from Obama's WH every day is why I do not like the man. Its not hate the left has that base covered.
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 20, 2009 4:54 PM
***********************************
.
Clown in DC,
You don't like the man (Obama) because other than the fact that you're dumber than a bag of rocks, you stood up on your hind legs and cheered like a trained seal when Bu$chco started two wars (one based on lies), tortured, committed war crimes, sold out tax payers to the Military Industrial Complex (Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater) and gave tax cuts to the richest 1%, big corporations and big oil.
Although I wouldn't expect anything less from the toothless rednecks (you) who make up what's left of todays Repug party.
Posted by: HHH | October 20, 2009 6:26 PM
I see there is a new moron among the Loony Lefter, Gary M.
Gary, the rating for Fox News beat those of CNN, MSNBC, Headline News and CNBC COMBINED! To say that Fox News Sunday loses to the other Sunday morning programs is a non-issue. First, it's the new kid on the block. Second, it is the only news programming on the Fox Entertainment network.
Websites are a nonstarter too. Some of those website you cite are also search engines.
Anyway, Fox makes no secret that it's prime time line-up is largely opinion-based, though Greta Van Susteran really isn't. You also have REAL news on programs like Special Report and the Fox Report.
On PMSNBC, you have opinion programming with Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow.
Regardless, though, even O'Reilly and Hannity have more liberal guests and commentators than do either Olbermann or Maddow.
But this is a thug administration that has a bunch of infiltrators to stem any debate, either at theeven tor later in programming.
Posted by: John D | October 20, 2009 7:05 PM
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But this is a thug administration that has a bunch of infiltrators to stem any debate, either at theeven tor later in programming.
Posted by: John D | October 20, 2009 7:05 PM
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Lil Johnny Doughy Pantload,
We're not afraid of Fox News as much as we're afraid of violent Teabagger goobers like you, the one's who actually put their undying trust in them as their only source of information/propaganda.
It's you mouth-breathers who really scare the crap out of everyone.
.
http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_political/3983339.html#cutid1
.
Posted by: janet | October 20, 2009 7:24 PM
Hay you detractors of the truth, why don't you take what Fox puts on the air and "Google it. That will tell you who is telling the truth.
Posted by: The Tennessee Skipper | October 20, 2009 7:49 PM
Fox News aka, The Jesus Channel/ GOP TV/ The Glorious Official Republican Government News Network.
While Fox News has the highest ratings, it’s also the same group of people that make up just 20% of America’s electorate… the far right-wing of the GOP.
There will always be an audience for the far right and that’s Rupert Murdock’s Fox News demographic.
Rupert keeps them frothing at the mouth with manufactured fear and GOP talking-points, phony outrage.
Fox is also a right-wing echo chamber.. notice that when “The Wall Street Journal”, “The Weekly Standard” people are on Fox News there’s never disclosure that these people are all Rupert Murdock employees.
Imagine if MSNBC or CNN did this… I don’t know how Fox News gets way with constantly recycling Rupert Murdock’s employees (sockpuppets) from his various media properties.
Also there’s hardly a word on the “MSM” about Murdock’s world wide (far right-wing) media empire.
Murdock has a lot of influence, example: all of his various sockpuppets, Hannity, Beck, etc, and all of Murdock’s worldwide media holdings trash global warming, President Obama and anything else right-wing Rupert Murdock dislikes.
I think that press and especially individual journalists are deathly afraid of Rupert Murdock and what he can do to them professionally.
Rupert Murdock is the new William Randolph Hearst.
Another thing, Sarah Palin, who is a favorite among the Faux News/ Right-wing crowd is getting Rupert Murdock’s wingnut welfare.
Palin’s (Rupert Murdock’s ghostwriter) book publisher is HarperCollins… a wholly owned Rupert Murdock subsidiary, you ‘betcha.
Finally, there should be an award given to the guy that writes the ominous, scary music for Fox News... he's obviously a full-time employee.
No seriously... whenever there's a special where Rupert Murdock wants to convince Americans that Saddam Hussein has WMD, or that Iran/North Korea is going to attack America tomorrow, or a Hannity or Beck segment where they want to scare their right-wing audience (even more) there's always that ominous music to go along with the story.
It's like a scary GOP music video.
Posted by: David | October 20, 2009 9:18 PM
"This is not good and I commend Jake Tapper for inquiring about the Obama policy."
Posted by: Pat H
Find another hero. Jake Tapper didn't even bother to engage in basic fact-checking when he circulated a phony e-mail about a Bush official back in April. Of course, anyone with a modicum of common sense would've recognized that the e-mail was a hoax, but Tapper was too stupid to pick up on it and was left with egg on his face.
Posted by: Diane | October 20, 2009 9:19 PM
Oh Smelly, Unclean Janet, er Deranged John E, us right wingers are good people. We make this country work. We make it happen. We make it succeed. We make it great. The only thing you need to fear from us is that you and your worthless ilk will get left behind in our dust.
Posted by: John D | October 20, 2009 10:23 PM
Oh by the way, Smelly, Unclean Dumb Dumb Janet, I love those pics of those good, hard-working patriotic Americans. Yeah, some don't spell very well, but it doesn't take a genius to know that socialism is crap. But, janet, I've seen plenty of your posts over the years and I wouldn't be too hard on those folks, if I were you. You consistently show an IQ level that mirrors temps in the North Pole during the height of winter.
Posted by: John D | October 20, 2009 10:29 PM
Unless The One rewrites the Constitution, allowing Him to be President For Life, his time in office will pass, and eventually a Republican will be elected President. In that event, the "real" news organizations that today are sitting on their hands will nod understandingly when President Republican changes the definition of "real" news organizations to include only his sycophants.
Honestly. Obama's stature shrinks every day.
Posted by: J Story | October 20, 2009 10:57 PM
Yeah, but how about that Glenn Beck fella ~ (((GB))). I tell u the man is sheer genius. Today, he had a little dawg as the proxy stand-in for the Left Stream Media lap dogs that main-line Mustapha. The little dawg looked a little dazed, having to represent more sleazy folk than he probably ever really contracted for in one day.
The Marxist Mao guy was still on the job too, guarding the red Marxist phone that is directly hooked up to Anita Dunn, one of the many WH Marxists. Every time that GB ran down Anita Dunn, he would look back to see if the phone was ringing. Don’t expect that that little red phone is ever going to ring.
“ Of course this is like the theater going to bat for the circus because it is all entertainment.” Viloa, @ 5:40 p.m. says. I like that, but the circus is on Mustapha’s peacock network. Fox is like a Swiss Army knife. It is news and it is entertainment. Multi-tasking. Sometimes it can be done with great effect.
Kara K @ 4:19 p.m., small point of disagreement ~ it is always democrats that I know who are buying the lottery tickets. They have no concept of odds, and this is like an investment plan for them. Whenever folks do ill-defensible things that no one is forcing them to do, I have always found that they are also marking that parenthetical “D” box on election day, no matter what. But God bless them, because the states do need the money.
This is great. Keep those Fox / Faux attacks coming. Keep attacking a news network AND an entertaining opinion network. Are these Marxists really that dumb? In a normal world, Fox should be far down on Mustapha’s Wipe-out List. Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Karl Rove, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Liz Cheney, Michelle Maikin, the pretty lawyer babes, et ux are waaaaaaaay smarter than anything on the Left. They will always have the last word.
Posted by: Django - N Exile In/Around the 30th Parallel | October 21, 2009 12:32 AM
Clown in DC,
You don't like the man (Obama) because other than the fact that you're dumber than a bag of rocks, you stood up on your hind legs and cheered like a trained seal when Bu$chco started two wars (one based on lies), tortured, committed war crimes, sold out tax payers to the Military Industrial Complex (Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater) and gave tax cuts to the richest 1%, big corporations and big oil.
Although I wouldn't expect anything less from the toothless rednecks (you) who make up what's left of todays Repug party.
Posted by: HHH | October 20, 2009 6:26 PM
Like I said before is that all you got. And what is with the name calling, is that the Lefts' fall back.
Unlike Obama, Bush let the people in the field run the war in Iraq. And thanks to Bush its just about done, but you would not know that if you get your news for the MSM. They want to do the same in Afghanistan but Obama and the democrats are holding the troops that are needed back. I'm ex-Navy and know a lot of people still in and get the daily newsletter. It seems a lot of the troops are hearing what Obama and the democrats are doing with not sending in more troops. They hear Boxer saying Obama is waiting, and they what to know what for. I get my news from the only places that report this. FNC and the daily newsletter plus I have two aces, family members of a few of the troops over there and friends still in the armed forces who as been there.
That is one more reason to dis-like Obama. I know the Left has a hard with our military. But, I say this; the longer Obama waits = more blood on his hands. And that my small minded racist is how a lot of people will see it.
And BTW I'm from Chicago, borne and raised.
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 21, 2009 1:11 AM
The white house is just stating the facts. FOX "News" is primarily a Republican propaganda outlet. Shepherd Smith is the only real news program, and he's only there to give FOX some veneer of legitimacy. Why is the White House expected to take 24/7 abuse from FOX and not fight back?
Posted by: giantslor | October 21, 2009 1:14 AM
When Obama was running for President I listened very closely to what he wanted to accomplish. I voted for MCCain. But I was very interested what would happen if America elected a Black man for President. Since he has been in office our country has never been more split. Obama has accomplished nothing. In my opinion Obama is only partially to blame. He is guilty of appointing one of the worst cabinets and czar's in our history. They in turn have given him advise that really tears into the fabric of America's comfort level. The Healthcare system has to be fixed. You can't ramrod this down our throats. We need to make sure to proceed with caution. The most important thing we, as Americans, have to do is start being more civil to each other. Nothing gets done when both sides are hurling insults. I saw Michael Moore and Sean Hannity the other night on FOX. Even though they disagreed on just about everything, they ended up having a great discourse. Why the Obama administration is doing this to FOX sets a dangerous precedent.
JPO
Posted by: J. Patrick O'Malley | October 21, 2009 1:17 AM
When Obama was running for President I listened very closely to what he wanted to accomplish. I voted for MCCain. But I was very interested what would happen if America elected a Black man for President. Since he has been in office our country has never been more split. Obama has accomplished nothing. In my opinion Obama is only partially to blame. He is guilty of appointing one of the worst cabinets and czar's in our history. They in turn have given him advise that really tears into the fabric of America's comfort level. The Healthcare system has to be fixed. You can't ramrod this down our throats. We need to make sure to proceed with caution. The most important thing we, as Americans, have to do is start being more civil to each other. Nothing gets done when both sides are hurling insults. I saw Michael Moore and Sean Hannity the other night on FOX. Even though they disagreed on just about everything, they ended up having a great discourse. Why the Obama administration is doing this to FOX sets a dangerous precedent.
JPO
Posted by: J. Patrick O'Malley | October 21, 2009 1:17 AM
"Yeah, and Obama is a fascist, socialist, commie Nazi who wants to kill granny, right?"
Exactly! I'm glad you're finally beginning to see the light. Welcome to our side, Kathy.
Posted by: Teresa | October 21, 2009 10:02 AM
At least Fox isn't run by the government. Down with the Obamanation........Go FOX
Posted by: Been | October 21, 2009 10:07 AM
GO FOX. Don't follow the messiah who wants to control everything. The Obamanation will destroy this country. Let freedom of speech ring
Posted by: A free Democrat | October 21, 2009 11:10 AM
This seems so obvious to me. I just don't see other network's personalities presenting the "news" in such an over emotional way. Beck cries! A grown man breaking down sobbing is not a professional news journalist. I do not doubt that there are good journalists who work for Fox news just as there were really talented people who worked for Lehman Brothers when it collapsed. That is not the issue. What Fox chooses to put on the air and the way they choose to present it blurs or simply discredits them as a news organization. They pander to the ultra-conservative crowd... and that's great. They're making lots of money that way. More power to them. But, what's next? The National Enquirer and Star and TMZ are going to act all incensed that the White House isn't taking them seriously? The one thing we have plenty of in this country is news outlets. The White House is communicating and communicating. That's all I really care about as a citizen. I can go to WhiteHouse.org and get information all by myself. I don't need someone to read it to me or inject their opinion into the story. If that hurts Fox's feelings or if that makes other news organizations feel vulnerable for their jobs... then welcome to the plight of every other American worker...
Posted by: John | October 21, 2009 11:55 AM
Ah yes. Bring back Jeff Gannon!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon
Posted by: Tom J | October 21, 2009 4:07 PM
If "Fake News" really were a news organization, then this story wouldn't be true:
'
http://mediamatters.org/research/200910130047
Posted by: BC | October 21, 2009 5:24 PM
No, what you have is the difference between arguing about a certain story and saying the news station is wrong. You are comparing apples to oranges but that is nothing new from the left.
****
Last weekend Fox rolled out weasel KKKarl Rove to defend the cable broadcaster against the Obama administration's characterization of Fox as a partisan media outlet. Rove made two basic points:
- No White House should ever attack specific media outlets.
- It would be horribly unfair use MSNBC's "over-the-top, left-wing hosts" an excuse to attack NBC News, which has a separate news operation.
http://www.dailykostv.com/w/002269/
Naturally, it turns out the Bush White House did exactly what Rove now says they never should have done.
http://www.dailykostv.com/w/002270/
The letter Perino refers to is this one, in which White House advisor Ed Gillespie attacks NBC News for "blurring" the lines "between the 'news' as reported on NBC and the 'opinion' as reported on MSNBC."
http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/articles/1043229.aspx
Between Gillespie's letter and Perino's statement that the Bush White House was "fed up" with NBC News, we've got a clear-cut case of Karl Rove accusing the Obama White House of doing the exact same thing to Fox that the Bush White House did to NBC.
But there's one more thing that's important to point out. The so-called reporter who asked Perino the softball question reciting the accusations of Gillespie's letter and wondering whether NBC had responded was none other than Mike Emanuel of Fox.
Yep, the same Fox that now claims to be on an "enemies list" because the Obama White House had the temerity to accuse it of partisan bias was uncritically repeating Bush talking points that attacked NBC News.
So back then, Fox was working alongside the government to attack a news organization, and today they whine and howl like little babies when the current administration points out that they have an obvious partisan bias.
Oh well. It's their right to have a partisan bias. That's what the First Amendment is all about. But the mere fact that they have a right to broadcast conservative propaganda does not mean other news organizations -- or the White House -- have a responsibility to treat them like a serious news organization.
Posted by: Zac | October 20, 2009 2:39 PM
Posted by: kabookey | October 21, 2009 5:27 PM
I usually watch both CNN and FOX News. CNN definitely leans towards Obama and FOX News leans away. When it comes to journalistic professionalism all I can think is the recent Fact Check CNN did on a SNL comedy skit that made fun of Obama. A fact check on a comedy skit? And not something they ever did when Gov Palin was being roasted on SNL! I think FOX News is good for Democracy and the 1st amendment. You can turn to ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, CNNHN and think you are watching those 5 years olds chant the praises of Barack Hussein Obama! If you want a more critical look about what Obama is doing you have to go to Fox News. Although Kudos to ABC. George Stephanopolous has asked a few tough questions and Tapper clearly hasn't burned his copy of the 1st Amendment. Kudos to ABC...I may have to tune in there some more! Obama's Chavez like attack on Fox is scary!
Posted by: valwayne | October 21, 2009 6:09 PM
Last weekend Fox rolled out weasel KKKarl Rove to defend the cable broadcaster against the Obama administration's characterization of Fox as a partisan media outlet. Rove made two basic points:
Posted by: Zac | October 20, 2009 2:39 PM
The only member of the KKK in DC is a DEMOCRAT in Congress.
Posted by: Crooks_In_DC | October 21, 2009 6:32 PM
Well is clear that Obama considers Fox news more of a threat than the Taliban. The surge will be happening here on the homeland with the help of Move On and other left wing radicals. Read: the Jihad against Fox News ...at....http://cooperscopy.blogspot.com/
Posted by: cooperscopy | October 21, 2009 9:02 PM
BigBadSouthsideJim stated "they (BECK) really should be paying FOX for the time."
I am no media finance expert, but I would be surprised if BECK's company was NOT paying something for his time. Does anybody REALLY know how this works?
Posted by: mark finney | October 21, 2009 9:47 PM
Who is in charge of the White House?
• Rahm Emanuel?
• Valarie Jarrett?
• Mr. Axelrod?
• Michelle Obama?
• The three dozen czars?
It may be that there are way too many cooks in the kitchen that is causing indecisiveness to take over! It is evident that they (collectively) have ZERO COMPREHENSION OF THE RESOURCE OF TIME – IN RELATION TO COMBAT! Emanuel is peddling the notion that they have to wait to see who is going to win during the November 7 revote. For Pete’s sake, whoever wins will be pro American. Think Team Obama is more afraid of their LEFT WING than they are sworn enemies of the USA!
This idea of taking on all who disagree with them is sophomoric at best, and IS NOT PRESIDENTIAL. If the White House takes a look at the Gallup and Rasmussen polls of October 21, they will be adding at least 50% of the US population to their ‘ENEMIES' LIST’!
Think the only reason Team Obama is mad at Fox is that it was the only news agency doing its job: it outed Van Jones, and ACORN embarrassing the Administration for not having done its home work, or, worse yet, tried to slip a couple of real losers by the American people!!
Posted by: PappyHappy | October 21, 2009 9:53 PM
fox, repubs, weekly standard, none of these groups could stop a united dem party. grow a set and pass your new laws. their not passed for a reason. even with a delay of implementation pushed off till 2013 they don't have the stones. what gives?
Posted by: jan | October 21, 2009 10:51 PM
fox, repubs, weekly standard, none of these groups could stop a united dem party. grow a set and pass your new laws. their not passed for a reason. even with a delay of implementation pushed off till 2013 they don't have the stones. what gives?
Posted by: jan | October 21, 2009 10:56 PM
The campaign finance laws give a blanket exemption only to bona-fide news media organizations. If Fox is not a "real" news organization, then it is in serious violation of McCain-Feingold, and the Obama Administration should bring felony charges. Eric Holder should convene a grand jury, indict them, and once they are indicted Obama could order the FCC to remove all their cable operating permits and shut them down.
Posted by: Andrew P | October 22, 2009 12:41 AM
I love all of these lefties going nuts over Fox news. How many ad hominem attacks can you put into one post?
This mouth-breather watches Fox news exclusively except for Huckabee which is just a little too much 'down-home' bible thumping than I can take in a sitting.
The more Obama, his staff, and lefties in general that get wound up over Fox, the better.
Posted by: wsblack | October 22, 2009 1:01 AM
REGARDING MR.ROBERT GIBBS, I PERSONALLY THINK HE IS NOT THE BEST PRESS SECRETARY FOR THE PRESIDENT. HE NEEDS TO BE MORE EXACT IN HIS SPEECH, TOO MANY HESITATIONS WHEN HE TALKS..SOMETIMES I THINK HE REALLY IS CONFUSED...
Posted by: lance griswold | October 22, 2009 6:03 AM
Murdock spent two decades dividing fun-loving Aussies by hopelessly sowing dissension. and enriching himself in the process with the fat ratings that emotionality brings on. Although glad to have gotten rid of him, they still pay the price of having been his launching pad. This is one damaging individual that better than Bin Laden is destroying the country from within.
Posted by: jacques | October 22, 2009 8:59 AM
The Networks are watching after themselves.
They do not want to be on Obama's crap list.
So they better NOT DARE report anything bad about Obama and his cabinet.
So, nothing to see here, move along.
So what the next conservative president should do is give FOX News all access to him and bar ALL OTHER NEWS NETWORKS.
Posted by: TheEnforcer | October 22, 2009 10:46 AM
It's Ok for the WH to say what they believe; heck, I always said Obama was not a "real" president.
Posted by: Cogs | October 22, 2009 11:26 AM
Jeez Folks! Do you not recognize a political head fake? The Obama Administration has the most savvy political inside game this country has ever seen. What were we talking about when we were hit with the worst recession in 60 years? Healthcare reform. Now the recession has ended. Now that Healthcare reform is about to reach critical mass, what are we talking about? Fox news. Come on guys, Obama has ninja-like instincts that puts him 10 steps ahead of the press corp; get a clue people. Not an adoring fan, just someone who appreciates a well-timed strong drive to the basket.
Posted by: Y.S. Howze | October 22, 2009 2:21 PM
FOX News opinion shows have invited White House people to come on their shows to clear up what's the truth & what's not. None of them have come on or volunteered to clear the record. To me that makes me think they are hiding something because I would be on Fox News so fast if they said something that wasn't the truth
Posted by: Carol | October 22, 2009 4:44 PM
The only objective of Fox News is to attack democrats and president Obama, and butter up republicans. They also buttered up former president Bush and called those who criticized him un-American. By their own standards, that would make Fox News un-American. Bill O'Reilly told those who disagreed with Bush's policies to shut up. Now that he is criticizing Obama's policies, so O'Reilly needs to shut up. Anyone who actually thinks Fox News is a real news channel, and that they actually are fair and balanced has something seriously wrong with their brain. Lets see, we got radical conservatives Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, far right loons like Bill O'Reilly and the morons on Faux and Fiends. They have crazies like Dick Morris and Bernie Goldberg as guest analysts, and they never let Alan Colmes on without his conservative sister-in-law, with conservative Bill O'Reilly moderating. The Great American Panel of Hannity usually has two strong conservatives and one weak liberal, with radical conservative Hannity moderating. The Obama administration is right, Fox News is a communications arm and a mouthpiece of the republican party, since all they do is butter up republicans and tear apart democrats, they called people un-American for supporting Bush, now they relentlessly attack Obama. Fox News is right wing opinion and propaganda, and it should not be taken seriously by anyone.
Posted by: Fox Republican | October 22, 2009 5:08 PM
In the Communist Manifesto Karl Marx said the means of communication must be controlled so the Maoist Obama White House has no choice. If you are not sufficiently Socialist, you are on the Obama White House Enemies List.
Posted by: Enemies List | October 25, 2009 8:45 PM